Metagame Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion

shnowshner · Oct 19, 2023

great post pannu tho i wanna throw in my 2 cents

i definitely think the defense boost from bulk up gives hemo a lot more mileage than it should realistically be getting, makes for some pretty degenerate endgames. work up is my preferred replacement, it even gains stab.

wrt future meta development and cap 33 release, part of why i brought up the mons in question is just because i found them to be complained the most by both new users and seasoned players alike, and i felt there was a lot of negativity over various caps in the metagame yet no actual discourse about said mons outside of private chats or room complaints, so i wanted to actually motivate people to talk about them openly. outside of hemogoblin i don't think any of the mons need immediate changes, but many have been headaches for much of the generation even through the various shakeups we've seen with day 1, home update, dlc 1. idk i get the idea of "let's wait things out a bit before rushing in with changes" and it's probably smart to let ou cool off a bit, but we're more than halfway through october by now and dlc 2 is scheduled for winter 2023, i don't want us to keep raising the nerf ceiling until capcl drops and people continue to lament various caps in the metagame and how they make teambuilding way less engaging. like obv you can curbstomp a kril with outplays and teras but like what if it wasn't a piece of shit mon in the first place? that'd be nice.

if you want any sort of conclusion to my post, i think we should address hemogoblin before capcl rolls around, and after that tour ends we evaluate how the rest of the metagame has shaped up.

Waldinji · Oct 20, 2023

I wanna throw in my 2 Cents about this whole "big 5" (probably big 6 with CAP33 Joining them itself) , and I wanna mention Why , in My opinion , these are so notorious with the format right now. They're just really good at their job , Noone can deny that , but More Importantly , It also seems that (Maybe it's cuz I build Balance) 2 of them at least are needed , and the reason it's easy is because They fit really well with each other.
You have the Veno defensive Cores (Veno / Argh & Veno / Libra) , both cover either hazard game and Knock Off spam or the best mon once Gholdengo is removed , which is where Equilibra Comes in and ... Kinda completely walls it and can spin for free against it. Veno Cores are for fatter teams and While Hazard Stacking with Both is a realistic Option , Knock Off Spam alongside Hazard setters makes it That much easier for a Gholdengo or a Krillo to clean up.
We have the More offensive Krillo cores as well (Krillo / Argh , Krillo / Hemo & Krillo / Libra) , Krilo alongside hazards is a fairly obvious combination shown time & Time again this gen , so Pairing it with Argh is relatively logic , since Argh also serves as an incredible knock off bot for it , Krillo & Hemo is quite stupid to switch in , since the "grass tera & You're done with Krilo" doesn't work because you pair it with a fire type + a PixieSpeed Neutral (which after hazard chip [something Krilo Loves already]) , The issue gets added on , since What is supposed to check Krilo becomes wasted against Hemo (And can't wait for Ogerpon ban from OU to remove the need to tera grass in CAP lmao)

Darek · Oct 22, 2023

Ok so basically

:Venomicon:

I think post-DLC this mon is weaker than it was before, but I think it's still really constraining in the builder. Knock Off really does make the mon that much more difficult to deal with, being able to cripple Krilowatt, Gholdendgo, and other mons you'd want to act as switchins. Even though Sludge/Press/Knock is difficult to fit because Venom is almost always your rocker, I've found that into most matchups it's better to drop Press and run Rocks/Sludge/Roost/Knock and be an absolute pain to switch into. Remove Knock Off from Venom.

:Arghonaut:

I want to echo Spoo's point that Argh, while still strong, is at a low point right now where I don't find it especially oppressive. I do think Argh is important to keep the metagame from falling apart to the point where I think that removing Knock would be a mistake. For instance, removing Knock suddenly makes Nasty Plot Gholdengo much better. Especially in a setting where Knock absorbers are more plentiful with options like Gliscor, Ogerpon, and Clefable, I don't find Knock on Argh to be that oppressive, compared to Venom who can take on these Knock absorbers quite easily.

:Hemogoblin:

I think it goes without saying that Hemo's probably the most restricting mon in the builder right now. I don't find fitting a Hemo check to be particularly difficult on teams, but at the same time it does lead to the teams being built looking very samey. I think the problem comes from how by the nature of PixieSpeed you can't really beat Hemo by getting chip on it or pivoting around it. No matter how much health Hemo has it can always threaten the enemy team, meaning you can't really check the mon offensively. This also means that while Hemo is fine balancewise, Hemo is still just kind of cringe to fight because the counterplay for Hemo is so linear even if you do have a check for it. Because of this I don't think Hemo necessitates a nerf but I most definitely would not be opposed to Hemo getting one. I think removing ESpeed and giving it like Quick Attack/Fake Out/Both could be cool.

:Krilowatt:

Honestly Krilowatt isn't that great atm but man this mon is still so annoying to fight and I just don't like him. Just because of having Magic Guard + Volt Switch + moves that kill Grounds, I do think Kril is a mon that takes a lot less skill to use than it does to beat. It's very easy for Kril to make progress by just spamming Volt Switch against slower teams unless the opponent actually makes a play to stop Krill from pivoting. Even then, Krilowatt's capability to Tera Water on Libra to win the 1v1 does allow the Krill player to get away with the opponent pivoting well around them. Again, I think the mon is ultimately fine because it's not too difficult to beat by pivoting around and playing faster, but it's still just really cringe. I would not be opposed to removing Volt Switch from this thing.

I do think we need to let the meta develop a bit more before we decide to take any actual action; especially with little SV tour games happening currently. Unlike others here I do still enjoy building for SV CAP and think there's still a lot of room for innovation despite these constraints.

Samirsin · Nov 1, 2023

CAP ladder usage stats of October and what they tell us about the ladder metagame

By using this stats (1500), here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Equilibra
Arghonaut
Cawmodore
Miasmaw
Caribolt
Kitsunoh
Astrolotl

+----------------------------------------+
| Hemogoblin :sv/hemogoblin:

Hemogoblin
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Equilibra
Arghonaut
Cawmodore
Miasmaw
Caribolt
Kitsunoh
Astrolotl
Revenankh
Stratagem
Colossoil
Aurumoth
Krilowatt
Cyclohm
Plasmanta
Smokomodo
Saharaja
Tomohawk
Naviathan
Pajantom
Mollux
Syclant
Voodoom
Pyroak
Volkraken
Malaconda
Venomicon-Epilogue
Fidgit
Kerfluffle
Jumbao
Chromera
Crucibelle
Necturna

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU by usage:

Necturna

Total leads: 5142
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 10.03354% | 517 | 10.054% |
| 2 | Fidgit | 3.84544% | 229 | 4.454% |
| 3 | Krilowatt | 3.31971% | 144 | 2.800% |
| 4 | Stratagem | 3.17352% | 152 | 2.956% |
| 5 | Miasmaw | 2.66425% | 134 | 2.606% |
| 6 | Kitsunoh | 2.66067% | 129 | 2.509% |
| 7 | Venomicon | 2.60550% | 126 | 2.450% |
| 8 | Hemogoblin | 2.58938% | 133 | 2.587% |
| 9 | Saharaja | 2.51482% | 110 | 2.139% |
| 10 | Aurumoth | 2.47982% | 110 | 2.139% |
| 11 | Smokomodo | 2.41529% | 113 | 2.198% |
| 12 | Gliscor | 2.24396% | 87 | 1.692% |
| 13 | Cawmodore | 2.24244% | 140 | 2.723% |
| 14 | Pelipper | 2.23938% | 88 | 1.711% |
| 15 | Colossoil | 2.21654% | 117 | 2.275% |
| 16 | Jumbao | 2.17049% | 114 | 2.217% |
| 17 | Tomohawk | 2.16773% | 139 | 2.703% |
| 18 | Grimmsnarl | 2.15355% | 81 | 1.575% |
| 19 | Astrolotl | 2.10460% | 122 | 2.373% |
| 20 | Caribolt | 2.06187% | 129 | 2.509% |

weatherless...................85.14159%
offense.......................39.24199%
balance.......................38.21089%
hyperoffense..................14.25293%
sun........................... 9.44108%
semistall..................... 4.88062%
voltturn...................... 3.63442%
stall......................... 3.41356%
rain.......................... 2.94362%
hail.......................... 2.34835%
monotype...................... 1.07418%
choice........................ 0.55697%
hailoffense................... 0.46864%
trickroom..................... 0.39938%
monoghost..................... 0.27688%
sunoffense.................... 0.24590%
tailwind...................... 0.24274%
monofire...................... 0.22738%
hailstall..................... 0.22147%
monobug....................... 0.15472%
monofairy..................... 0.12621%
sand.......................... 0.12536%
monosteel..................... 0.11622%
monoflying.................... 0.05226%
monoelectric.................. 0.05192%
monograss..................... 0.05010%
sandoffense................... 0.04926%
monodragon.................... 0.03564%
monopoison.................... 0.03364%
rainoffense................... 0.03113%
monowater..................... 0.02169%
monofighting.................. 0.01886%
monopsychic................... 0.01469%
monoground.................... 0.01186%
dragmag....................... 0.01150%
monodark...................... 0.00716%

Stalliness (mean: -0.084)
|#
-1.5|#########
|#########
-1.0|################
|################
-0.5|#####################
|##################
0.0|#######################
|##############################
+0.5|##############
|##############
+1.0|######
|####
+1.5|##
|#
+2.0|#
|
+2.5|#
|###
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.53%

Gholdengo , Great Tusk , Dragapult Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Gliscor are the most used non-CAP Pokémon.
CAP 33 is on the way!

Darek · Nov 4, 2023

This is something that I've been thinking about for the past few weeks, but in light of people's views on the current CAP meta and the ongoing Gliscor suspect, I have decided to finally post about this. I believe that CAP should start tiering separately from OU. Let me explain:

It should go without saying that the current gen CAP metagame is quite a bit different from OU. As CAPs continue to be designed around the CAP metagame and continue to be released, I find that the difference between CAP and OU will only continue to increase over time. As such, it is only sensible that CAP makes tiering decisions based on the state of its own metagame rather than that of OU's. This has already been done with the banning of Clefable in Gen 8 Pre-DLC, and with Walking Wake's ban in Gen 9 Pre-DLC. Yet, few seem to support such action when it comes to unbanning certain pokemon in CAP that OU has banned/will ban. While in general most pokemon that OU bans are also similarly broken in CAP, it would be disingenuous to expect that is always the case given the difference in the two metagames. As such, I find it to be in the best interest of the CAP metagame to consider some pokemon that have been banned/will be banned and evaluate if they may actually have a beneficial influence upon the CAP metagame:

:Gliscor:

In OU Gliscor is currently that guy, and while still strong in CAP, is not nearly as broken. Notorious for its capability to get up Spikes in OU, CAP is no stranger to strong Spikers with options such as Arghonaut and Hemogoblin. Conversely, CAP suffers from a middling pool of viable Stealth Rockers, with Venomicon being basically the only Rocks user that doesn't feel awkward to run. Consequently the standard Spikes Gliscor set isn't able to fit nicely into CAP teams as it does into OU, especially when you consider its matchup into Equilibra, the best removal in the tier. As such, when building with Gliscor in CAP you quickly run into a serious 4MSS issue. Between Hazards/EQ/Protect/Knock/Toxic, Gliscor always feels like it is missing something when only running 4 of these 5, making it far less oppressive than it is in OU. Gliscor is still extremely annoying to fight, but I find far from broken or unhealthy in CAP.

Furthermore, Gliscor's unique defensive properties enable it to be a solid answer into the more oppressive CAP threats and provide a significant amount of flexibility in defensive teambuilding to where banning it from CAP would be a detriment. First, the increased prevalence of Knock Off in CAP, whether from Arghonaut or Venomicon, means that adding a dedicated Knock absorber for the team provides a lot of breathing room for the team. Gliscor's capability to come in on Arghonaut and threaten Toxic, or come in on Venom lacking Hurricane and threaten to get up Spikes makes it a reliable switchin to the defensive bastions of CAP that most teams struggle to switch into. In addition, Gliscor is one of the best answers to Hemogoblin in the tier due to its natural bulk and naturally higher speed. This capability, in addition to its general physical bulk, hazard-setting capability, and Flying typing, makes Gliscor a genuinely strong alternative to Venomicon on a lot of teams, helping to decentralize the metagame from the book. In doing so, Gliscor is able to function as a glue for several bulky offense builds while diversifying the options for balance builds, which overall I find to be a healthy presence for CAP.

:Gholdengo:

While not currently on the chopping block, it would be far from surprising if Gholdengo is suspected in OU in the near future. Although Gholdengo is certainly a strong pick in CAP, it again is far from broken in CAP. Even with Air Balloon, Gholdengo struggles into Equilibra long-term, and Nasty Plot typically fails to break past Arghonaut in any meaningful way. Its poor matchup into Equilibra makes its spinblocking capabilities far less potent in CAP, especially since it also struggles into more niche removal like Mollux, Colossoil, and Astrolotl.

Outside of spinblocking I don't think anyone would argue that Gholdengo's other attributes are broken or unhealthy for the metagame, whether that be CAP or OU. In CAP specifically, Gholdengo relieves a lot of pressure in the builder with its ability to consistently hard switch on Venomicon lacking Knock Off, while also functioning as an offensive pokemon that resists Hemogoblin ExtremeSpeed. While the list of things Gholdengo provides in the builder isn't as extensive as Gliscor's, the singular ability to stuff out Venomicon makes it an actively healthy presence in the metagame in my eyes.

Now I want to talk about some previously banned pokemon that I think we should consider unbanning:

:Baxcalibur:

Pre-DLC Baxcalibur was near broken in OU, but suffered from a number of challenges in CAP, specifically beating Arghonaut and Hemogoblin. This made Baxcalibur a strong pokemon, especially with Chilly Reception, but often awkward to fit on teams. Following Teal Mask, Baxcalibur received 2 new tools: Scale Shot and Alolan Ninetales. The former does little for Baxcalibur in CAP. A reliance on Loaded Dice makes Baxcalibur much more vulnerable to Knock Off, but more importantly, a reliance on multi-hit moves makes Baxcalibur far weaker into Venomicon, which Baxcalibur should otherwise be able to beat. Then the Defense drop from Scale Shot only makes it easier for Baxcalibur to be revenge killed by Hemogoblin, and the capability of using Swords Dance instead of Dragon Dance doesn't improve anything into Arghonaut. On the other hand, the addition of Alolan Ninetales may not be so trivial, but nonetheless I think Baxcalibur will remain a relatively stable presence in CAP. Again, Screens does little to help against Argh, and with the incoming release of CAP33 teams will have yet another option for a reliable Baxcalibur answer. Generally, the counterplay to Bax under screens remains the counterplay for regular screens offense where you try to limit the amount of screens turns as much as possible.

Whether unbanning Baxcalibur will be ultimately better for the metagame is still questionable, but I think at the very least should be considered. Notably, Baxcalibur is one best Krilowatt answers you could ask for; pairing Bax with any Ground is often sufficient to answer the shrimp. More importantly, the metagame could potentially benefit from a strong offensive Ice type of which there are currently none. Currently there isn't much that can muscle past both Flying types and Ground types bar Krilowatt, to which I think Baxcalibur could add some more diversity in offensive options.

:Palafin:

Palafin never really got its chance in CAP since it was banned before Gen 9 CAP went live, but I believe Palafin may have the potential to be balanced in CAP. This one I'm less serious about but I think Palafin could be funny so just humor me on this one. For starters mono-Water STAB isn't amazing currently, going against pokemon like Arghonaut, the impending CAP33, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Walking Wake, and more. This renders the Choice Band set to be extremely prediction-reliant and overall inconsistent. But the real threat that got Palafin banned was the Bulk Up Set. Bulk Up sets should be easily stuffed out by Arghonaut and CAP33, but even without these two answers like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Krilowatt, and others seem serviceable. I could imagine Bulk Up Palafin being on a similar power level to something like Manaphy, which I find sits comfortably at a level of balanced with cheese potential. Overall I can't really say for certain that Palafin won't be broken in CAP or that it would even benefit the meta by adding it, but I think it would be funny if we had him.

Da Pizza Man · Nov 4, 2023

2023 CAP Summer Seasonals

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Hemogoblin         |  186 |  45.15% |  53.76% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |  154 |  37.38% |  48.05% |
| 3    | Venomicon          |  142 |  34.47% |  50.70% |
| 4    | Dragapult          |  133 |  32.28% |  48.87% |
| 5    | Equilibra          |  124 |  30.10% |  54.03% |
| 6    | Kingambit          |   90 |  21.84% |  46.67% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          |   77 |  18.69% |  49.35% |
| 8    | Krilowatt          |   73 |  17.72% |  47.95% |
| 9    | Arghonaut          |   70 |  16.99% |  58.57% |
| 10   | Slowking-Galar     |   63 |  15.29% |  47.62% |
| 11   | Iron Moth          |   61 |  14.81% |  49.18% |
| 12   | Iron Valiant       |   53 |  12.86% |  45.28% |
| 13   | Samurott-Hisui     |   51 |  12.38% |  49.02% |
| 14   | Zapdos             |   49 |  11.89% |  55.10% |
| 15   | Caribolt           |   46 |  11.17% |  43.48% |
| 16   | Walking Wake       |   41 |   9.95% |  53.66% |
| 17   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   37 |   8.98% |  62.16% |
| 17   | Roaring Moon       |   37 |   8.98% |  54.05% |
| 19   | Garganacl          |   36 |   8.74% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Cinderace          |   31 |   7.52% |  54.84% |
| 21   | Crucibelle         |   29 |   7.04% |  44.83% |
| 22   | Heatran            |   28 |   6.80% |  42.86% |
| 22   | Ting-Lu            |   28 |   6.80% |  42.86% |
| 24   | Miasmaw            |   27 |   6.55% |  40.74% |
| 24   | Hatterene          |   27 |   6.55% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Malaconda          |   25 |   6.07% |  64.00% |
| 27   | Greninja-*         |   24 |   5.83% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Jumbao             |   24 |   5.83% |  45.83% |
| 29   | Dragonite          |   23 |   5.58% |  60.87% |
| 29   | Snaelstrom         |   23 |   5.58% |  56.52% |
| 31   | Zamazenta-*        |   22 |   5.34% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Meowscarada        |   22 |   5.34% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Rotom-Wash         |   21 |   5.10% |  47.62% |
| 33   | Cawmodore          |   21 |   5.10% |  33.33% |
| 35   | Enamorus           |   19 |   4.61% |  47.37% |
| 36   | Dondozo            |   18 |   4.37% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Glimmora           |   18 |   4.37% |  61.11% |
| 36   | Cresselia          |   18 |   4.37% |  61.11% |
| 36   | Stratagem          |   18 |   4.37% |  55.56% |
| 36   | Venomicon-Epilogue |   18 |   4.37% |  44.44% |
| 36   | Revenankh          |   18 |   4.37% |  44.44% |
| 36   | Ursaluna           |   18 |   4.37% |  33.33% |
| 43   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |   16 |   3.88% |  56.25% |
| 43   | Astrolotl          |   16 |   3.88% |  37.50% |
| 45   | Toxapex            |   14 |   3.40% |  35.71% |
| 46   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |   13 |   3.16% |  76.92% |
| 46   | Sneasler           |   13 |   3.16% |  38.46% |
| 48   | Cyclohm            |   12 |   2.91% |  58.33% |
| 49   | Colossoil          |   11 |   2.67% |  63.64% |
| 49   | Sandy Shocks       |   11 |   2.67% |  63.64% |
| 49   | Baxcalibur         |   11 |   2.67% |  27.27% |
| 52   | Tomohawk           |   10 |   2.43% |  60.00% |
| 52   | Blissey            |   10 |   2.43% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Amoonguss          |   10 |   2.43% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Moltres            |   10 |   2.43% |  40.00% |
| 56   | Skeledirge         |    9 |   2.18% |  55.56% |
| 56   | Fidgit             |    9 |   2.18% |  44.44% |
| 56   | Syclant            |    9 |   2.18% |  33.33% |
| 59   | Scream Tail        |    8 |   1.94% |  75.00% |
| 59   | Chromera           |    8 |   1.94% |  62.50% |
| 59   | Volcanion          |    8 |   1.94% |  50.00% |
| 59   | Tornadus-Therian   |    8 |   1.94% |  50.00% |
| 59   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    8 |   1.94% |  25.00% |
| 59   | Aurumoth           |    8 |   1.94% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Landorus-Therian   |    7 |   1.70% |  71.43% |
| 65   | Gliscor            |    7 |   1.70% |  57.14% |
| 65   | Ninetales-Alola    |    7 |   1.70% |  57.14% |
| 65   | Mollux             |    7 |   1.70% |  42.86% |
| 65   | Rillaboom          |    7 |   1.70% |  42.86% |
| 70   | Pelipper           |    6 |   1.46% |  66.67% |
| 70   | Clefable           |    6 |   1.46% |  50.00% |
| 70   | Naviathan          |    6 |   1.46% |  33.33% |
| 70   | Plasmanta          |    6 |   1.46% |  33.33% |
| 70   | Corviknight        |    6 |   1.46% |  33.33% |
| 70   | Iron Hands         |    6 |   1.46% |  16.67% |
| 70   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |    6 |   1.46% |  16.67% |
| 77   | Ceruledge          |    5 |   1.21% |  80.00% |
| 77   | Pajantom           |    5 |   1.21% |  60.00% |
| 77   | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |    5 |   1.21% |  60.00% |
| 77   | Moltres-Galar      |    5 |   1.21% |  40.00% |
| 77   | Manaphy            |    5 |   1.21% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Munkidori          |    4 |   0.97% |  75.00% |
| 82   | Scizor             |    4 |   0.97% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Alomomola          |    4 |   0.97% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Grimmsnarl         |    4 |   0.97% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Armarouge          |    4 |   0.97% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Iron Treads        |    4 |   0.97% |  25.00% |
| 82   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    4 |   0.97% |  25.00% |
| 89   | Smokomodo          |    3 |   0.73% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Kitsunoh           |    3 |   0.73% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Necturna           |    3 |   0.73% |  66.67% |
| 89   | Azelf              |    3 |   0.73% |  66.67% |
| 89   | Hawlucha           |    3 |   0.73% |  66.67% |
| 89   | Pyroak             |    3 |   0.73% |  33.33% |
| 89   | Indeedee           |    3 |   0.73% |  33.33% |
| 96   | Thundurus-Therian  |    2 |   0.49% | 100.00% |
| 96   | Kerfluffle         |    2 |   0.49% | 100.00% |
| 96   | Voodoom            |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Slowking           |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Basculegion        |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Orthworm           |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Saharaja           |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Polteageist        |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Zapdos-Galar       |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Azumarill          |    2 |   0.49% |  50.00% |
| 96   | Volkraken          |    2 |   0.49% |   0.00% |
| 96   | Bruxish            |    2 |   0.49% |   0.00% |
| 96   | Gengar             |    2 |   0.49% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Garchomp           |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Floatzel           |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Articuno-Galar     |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Cyclizar           |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Clodsire           |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Chansey            |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Primeape           |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Enamorus-Therian   |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Okidogi            |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Tyranitar          |    1 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 109  | Mew                |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Masquerain         |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Mimikyu            |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Kleavor            |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Regidrago          |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Ribombee           |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Barraskewda        |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Hydreigon          |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Sinistcha          |    1 |   0.24% |   0.00% |

CAP Retro Cup I (SV)

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Hemogoblin         |   20 |  41.67% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Venomicon          |   20 |  41.67% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Dragapult          |   13 |  27.08% |  53.85% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         |   13 |  27.08% |  53.85% |
| 5    | Iron Moth          |   12 |  25.00% |  58.33% |
| 6    | Kingambit          |   10 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Equilibra          |   10 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Krilowatt          |    9 |  18.75% |  55.56% |
| 9    | Manaphy            |    8 |  16.67% |  62.50% |
| 9    | Iron Valiant       |    8 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Gholdengo          |    7 |  14.58% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Arghonaut          |    7 |  14.58% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Revenankh          |    7 |  14.58% |  28.57% |
| 11   | Roaring Moon       |    7 |  14.58% |  28.57% |
| 15   | Colossoil          |    6 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Walking Wake       |    5 |  10.42% |  60.00% |
| 16   | Samurott-Hisui     |    5 |  10.42% |  40.00% |
| 16   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    5 |  10.42% |  40.00% |
| 16   | Malaconda          |    5 |  10.42% |  40.00% |
| 16   | Gliscor            |    5 |  10.42% |  20.00% |
| 21   | Heatran            |    4 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Zapdos             |    4 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tomohawk           |    4 |   8.33% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Dragonite          |    4 |   8.33% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Ninetales-Alola    |    4 |   8.33% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Ting-Lu            |    3 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Miasmaw            |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Cinderace          |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Greninja-*         |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Pelipper           |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Ribombee           |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Rillaboom          |    3 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    3 |   6.25% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Stratagem          |    3 |   6.25% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Astrolotl          |    3 |   6.25% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Skeledirge         |    3 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Meowscarada        |    3 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Zamazenta-*        |    3 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Munkidori          |    2 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Ursaluna           |    2 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Mollux             |    2 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Basculegion        |    2 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Jumbao             |    2 |   4.17% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |    2 |   4.17% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Jirachi            |    2 |   4.17% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Cawmodore          |    2 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Venomicon-Epilogue |    2 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Moltres            |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Empoleon           |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Ogerpon            |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Dondozo            |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Sinistcha          |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Kommo-o            |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Enamorus           |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Clefable           |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Mandibuzz          |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Sneasler           |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Hatterene          |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Gallade            |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Garchomp           |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Plasmanta          |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Fidgit             |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Shiftry            |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Pawmot             |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Caribolt           |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Syclant            |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Glimmora           |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Barraskewda        |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Clodsire           |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Sandy Shocks       |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |
| 49   | Naviathan          |    1 |   2.08% |   0.00% |

CAP Retro Cup I (SS)

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          |   17 |  40.48% |  41.18% |
| 2    | Zapdos             |   15 |  35.71% |  53.33% |
| 2    | Clefable           |   15 |  35.71% |  46.67% |
| 2    | Arghonaut          |   15 |  35.71% |  46.67% |
| 5    | Heatran            |   14 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Equilibra          |   13 |  30.95% |  46.15% |
| 7    | Saharaja           |   10 |  23.81% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Kartana            |    9 |  21.43% |  44.44% |
| 9    | Toxapex            |    7 |  16.67% |  85.71% |
| 9    | Melmetal           |    7 |  16.67% |  71.43% |
| 9    | Venomicon-Epilogue |    7 |  16.67% |  57.14% |
| 12   | Weavile            |    6 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Garchomp           |    5 |  11.90% |  80.00% |
| 13   | Pyroak             |    5 |  11.90% |  80.00% |
| 13   | Blacephalon        |    5 |  11.90% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Tapu Lele          |    5 |  11.90% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Ninetales-Alola    |    5 |  11.90% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Cawmodore          |    5 |  11.90% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Tapu Fini          |    5 |  11.90% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Tyranitar          |    5 |  11.90% |  20.00% |
| 21   | Chromera           |    4 |   9.52% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Tornadus-Therian   |    4 |   9.52% |  75.00% |
| 21   | Stratagem          |    4 |   9.52% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tangrowth          |    4 |   9.52% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Excadrill          |    3 |   7.14% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Astrolotl          |    3 |   7.14% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Mew                |    3 |   7.14% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Hippowdon          |    3 |   7.14% |  66.67% |
| 25   | Rotom-Wash         |    3 |   7.14% |  66.67% |
| 25   | Tapu Koko          |    3 |   7.14% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   7.14% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Ferrothorn         |    3 |   7.14% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Caribolt           |    3 |   7.14% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Venomicon          |    3 |   7.14% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Buzzwole           |    3 |   7.14% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Skarmory           |    2 |   4.76% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Urshifu            |    2 |   4.76% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Celesteela         |    2 |   4.76% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Rillaboom          |    2 |   4.76% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Zeraora            |    2 |   4.76% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Jumbao             |    1 |   2.38% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Cyclohm            |    1 |   2.38% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Blissey            |    1 |   2.38% | 100.00% |
| 41   | Slowbro            |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Volcarona          |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Chansey            |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Slowking-Galar     |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Corviknight        |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Dragonite          |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Pajantom           |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Fidgit             |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Cresselia          |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Hatterene          |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Marowak-Alola      |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Syclant            |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Necturna           |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Necrozma           |    1 |   2.38% |   0.00% |

CAP Retro Cup I (SM)

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tornadus-Therian   |   11 |  36.67% |  36.36% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   |   10 |  33.33% |  40.00% |
| 3    | Jumbao             |    9 |  30.00% |  55.56% |
| 3    | Heatran            |    9 |  30.00% |  33.33% |
| 5    | Equilibra          |    8 |  26.67% |  37.50% |
| 6    | Rotom-Wash         |    6 |  20.00% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Greninja-*         |    6 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Toxapex            |    6 |  20.00% |  33.33% |
| 6    | Arghonaut          |    6 |  20.00% |  16.67% |
| 10   | Kartana            |    5 |  16.67% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Pajantom           |    5 |  16.67% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Tyranitar          |    5 |  16.67% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Magearna           |    5 |  16.67% |  40.00% |
| 10   | Alakazam           |    5 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 15   | Latias             |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Weavile            |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Excadrill          |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Chansey            |    4 |  13.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Clefable           |    3 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Kyurem-Black       |    3 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Volcarona          |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Gastrodon          |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Mawile             |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Caribolt           |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Krilowatt          |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Ferrothorn         |    3 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Tapu Koko          |    3 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 28   | Magnezone          |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Tapu Fini          |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Camerupt           |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Tapu Lele          |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Cyclohm            |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Pyroak             |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Scizor             |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Salamence          |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Hawlucha           |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Gyarados           |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Medicham           |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Garchomp           |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Celesteela         |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Reuniclus          |    2 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Necturna           |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Diancie            |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Pinsir             |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Zapdos             |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Aggron             |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Latios             |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Gliscor            |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Lopunny            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Tomohawk           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Dragonite          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Colossoil          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Mollux             |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |

shnowshner · Nov 12, 2023

almost tired so while i wait i want to further discuss the separate tiering proposal Darek made following gliscor getting banned from OU

if we want to tier separately there needs to be some established method of determining what can stay and what does not. larger metagames can readily achieve this through suspect tests for more nuanced issues while leaving the council to handle the more clearcut problems, sometimes indirectly through the tiering surveys that help inform decisions. cap is on the small side of smogon metagames with its meager ladder/room activity and the smaller still playerbase developing the meta. cap is primarily a "big tournaments" meta that sees spikes in activity whenever the circuit tours or team tours are at peak activity.

the methods we have to tier separately are as follows:

the cap metagame council are in charge of making tiering decisions based on their own experience and applicable community input
public suspect tests are conducted to decide bans/unbans
"results-based" votes are conducted by users who had successful tournament runs, primarily solo tours

none of these are perfect, nor mutually exclusive with one another. much of the metagame council have various other obligations to attend to, and may find it difficult to quickly reach conclusions. more public votes are liable to poor turnout, unbalanced voter eligability, and disconnect between the low/high levels of skill and familiarity within the metagame.

now about the recent ban. gliscor as a mon isn't nearly as troubling to cap as it was to ou. the big three balance caps (venom argh libra) do a lot to keep gliscor in check, both decentralizing gliscor's spiking game while generally matching well vs it. a lot of gliscor's sets can find themselves struggling to progess vs cap additions, especially when protect may as well be a requirement. there's no satisfying combination of eq/knock/facade/flying stab/toxic/hazards to autopilot with. rarer ou offensive sd sets not only get murked by argh but you also run the risk of getting horribly fished by some random low A high B cap. u dont wanna be the guy running eq ice fang into snaelstrom or eq crabhammer into plasmanta.

i think gliscor lacks any real reason to be banned from cap outside of a lack of parsity between the official banlist and information listed on showdown. especially with dlc2 on the horizon and yet another cap being added, keeping gliscor around to preserve what we have left of the current metagame and existing structures sounds fair to me. we'll certainly see another upheaval post-indigo disc so i'd prefer to keep some sense of stability in cap until then: cap 33 playtest is the only major event left for dlc1 meta.

spoo · Nov 14, 2023

Debated if this post was even worth making atp given how outdated the teams are, but for one reason or another (mostly because I haven't had very good runs...), it's been a long time since I've went through an indiv tour I and thought it would still be fun to dump what I used. I won't talk too much about the teams, since, again, most are either illegal or probably bad, but hope y'all enjoy nonetheless.

R1 vs hidin

- W

R2 vs entrocefalo

- W

- W

R4 vs Trogba Trogba

- W

- W

R6 vs Concept Everything
:dragapult:

- W

- W

R8 vs airfare

- W

- W
Hearthflame, bloodmoon, and roaring moon veil LOL what a ridiculous team. Fidgit's here just cause I wanted to use a CAP but it's genuinely not a bad lead. I do not miss this state of the tier, although shit like this was undoubtedly fun to use.

R10 vs Darek

- W

- L

- W
Despite it just looking like I wanted to spam bloodmoon offense (I won't deny this), this was the week I probably put the most effort into prep. It was also the series responsible for my sole loss this tour. I had three goals this week––cteam sun, be good into libra+venom balance, and to try to stay unpredictable with my brings––but it actually proved pretty difficult to come up with enough teams that checked those boxes. Sun is not the most consistent playstyle in the world, but it's much more versatile in CAP than people give it credit for. Trying to consistently beat every different sun build that I thought Darek might use was easily the most frustrating part of my prep for this series. In the end, I rebuilt two or three different suns that Darek used and ran a ton of games vs myself on an alt to make sure the matchups were playable. Though, of course, he brought a sun team with a bunch of mons he's never used before and wiped me G2. Matchup was still winnable but I played probably my worst game all tour and had to take things to a very close G3. Very fun series and left me feeling only slightly immoral for running bloodmoon offense 5 games in a row.

Finals vs pannu

- W

- W
I'm pretty sure pannu and I joked early on that we'd meet in finals or something so this was a series I was really looking forward to. I wasn't expecting it to end this decisively, but I think I prepped fairly well and just got really lucky with the order we decided to load our teams. My thought process was basically to load the psyspam first since it was a risky team and I wanted to give myself room to recover if it flopped, then the double unaware fat G2 since I was betting I'd get ho'ed either G1/G2, and, well, both rolled insanely favorable matchups. Pannu was loading a lot of fat-ish argh balance stuff so I figured strong psychic breakers (I initially wanted to load hoopa or munki on regular balance) and fat dismantlers like 4atk hamu + taunt torn would be solid. Was also really hoping this wouldn't go to set 2 since the only other teams I had prepped were a bo I was unsatisfied with and this dumb offense LOL it genuinely felt impossible to build with roaring moon in the tier but yeah one way or another it worked out in the end. Ggs to pannu and everyone else, I know not everyone has enjoyed the tier recently but it was a lot of fun for me this tour and I can only hope that cresceidon + dlc2 take it even higher.

Samirsin · Dec 10, 2023

CAP ladder usage stats of November and what they tell us about the ladder metagame

By using this stats (1500), here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Stratagem
Caribolt
Cresceidon
Cawmodore

+----------------------------------------+
| Cresceidon :sv/cresceidon:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Stratagem
Caribolt
Cresceidon
Cawmodore
Colossoil
Revenankh
Krilowatt
Kitsunoh
Smokomodo
Aurumoth
Pajantom
Fidgit
Naviathan
Astrolotl
Chromera
Syclant
Malaconda
Pyroak
Saharaja
Tomohawk
Cyclohm
Kerfluffle
Mollux
Volkraken
Jumbao
Plasmanta
Voodoom
Crucibelle
Venomicon-Epilogue
Necturna

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU by usage:

Venomicon-Epilogue
Necturna

Total leads: 5876
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 9.46666% | 575 | 9.786% |
| 2 | Venomicon | 4.99536% | 256 | 4.357% |
| 3 | Fidgit | 4.47240% | 238 | 4.050% |
| 4 | Krilowatt | 3.64284% | 200 | 3.404% |
| 5 | Stratagem | 3.13474% | 177 | 3.012% |
| 6 | Dragapult | 3.06217% | 136 | 2.314% |
| 7 | Malaconda | 3.04149% | 168 | 2.859% |
| 8 | Hemogoblin | 2.86865% | 177 | 3.012% |
| 9 | Tomohawk | 2.42917% | 122 | 2.076% |
| 10 | Kerfluffle | 2.41027% | 127 | 2.161% |
| 11 | Arghonaut | 2.37991% | 147 | 2.502% |
| 12 | Colossoil | 2.35200% | 137 | 2.332% |
| 13 | Miasmaw | 2.22975% | 151 | 2.570% |
| 14 | Caribolt | 2.22174% | 127 | 2.161% |
| 15 | Astrolotl | 2.12376% | 135 | 2.297% |
| 16 | Cresceidon | 2.02654% | 123 | 2.093% |
| 17 | Great Tusk | 1.98933% | 91 | 1.549% |
| 18 | Equilibra | 1.89256% | 106 | 1.804% |
| 19 | Crucibelle | 1.82250% | 94 | 1.600% |
| 20 | Kitsunoh | 1.79653% | 109 | 1.855% |

weatherless...................85.14367%
offense.......................44.70808%
balance.......................37.84750%
sun...........................11.14422%
hyperoffense.................. 9.48727%
semistall..................... 5.59365%
voltturn...................... 4.99949%
stall......................... 2.36350%
monotype...................... 2.32756%
hail.......................... 2.30905%
hailoffense................... 1.13831%
rain.......................... 0.87229%
monosteel..................... 0.80880%
trickroom..................... 0.62022%
sand.......................... 0.57197%
monopoison.................... 0.36150%
sunoffense.................... 0.34007%
monoghost..................... 0.28464%
choice........................ 0.27896%
monofairy..................... 0.25720%
tricksun...................... 0.21205%
monowater..................... 0.15309%
monobug....................... 0.13795%
monofire...................... 0.11059%
monodragon.................... 0.06876%
monograss..................... 0.05393%
monoflying.................... 0.04620%
sunstall...................... 0.04561%
monoelectric.................. 0.04482%
multiweather.................. 0.03517%
monopsychic................... 0.02789%
gravity....................... 0.02568%
monofighting.................. 0.01950%
monorock...................... 0.01708%
tailwind...................... 0.01627%
mononormal.................... 0.01063%
monoground.................... 0.00960%
hailstall..................... 0.00957%
monodark...................... 0.00908%
dragmag....................... 0.00718%
sandoffense................... 0.00465%

Stalliness (mean: -0.061)
-2.0|
|#
-1.5|#####
|######
-1.0|#############
|####################
-0.5|#########################
|##############################
0.0|#####################
|#############################
+0.5|####################
|###############
+1.0|########
|####
+1.5|##
|#
+2.0|###
|
+2.5|
|
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.49%

Cresceidon is now here!

SHSP · Dec 22, 2023

SHSP said:
oh boy new meta shift time for SHSP to post about it in the metagame thread

surpriseeeee

How has everyone been enjoying the Indigo Disk meta? Comparing it to where SS was post-Crown Tundra, I think its miles more interesting and settled, and honestly been pretty fun to play so far. A few assorted thoughts:

:roaring-moon:

This guy is public enemy #1 for me. I really do think this is one of the best mons in the whole format, if not the best, even with the additions that CAP has like Hemo and Cresc to offer more counterplay. Mon ends games like very little else and knock especially makes it a pain to switch into.

:metagross:

I was half-memeing when I first built around Meta, but it actually has performed weirdly well for me. It's great into book, both via knocking it and pfangs doing a ton in the 1v1. AV has some other applications and solid matchups as well. Very fun to play with even if it's probably not amazing in the longterm.

:darkrai:

I spent like 2 hours trying to build with this guy and i just couldn't. I genuinely think he sucks. Very little defensive capabilities, you're going to have to invest tera to really clean with it on NP sets, even trying to figure out coverage for it is kind of awkward. I haven't messed with scarf much and I've heard that's the best set for it, so that might move the needle again, but I feel like there's so many better options currently than this thing.

shnowshner · Dec 23, 2023

i would comment on thre metA but anyone who's encountered me on showdown knows i've only built meteor beam indigo disc ho and bogbound pizza party so i actually have zero useful experience with the new mons to relay

i will say tho, having lost every cap game, you should be using deo-s as it's a genuinely crazy mon whose time in ou and cap feels limited to maybe next week

Da Pizza Man · Jan 7, 2024

CAP33 Playtest

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Venomicon          |   53 |  32.72% |  49.06% |
| 2    | Cresceidon         |   47 |  29.01% |  44.68% |
| 3    | Hemogoblin         |   44 |  27.16% |  47.73% |
| 4    | Dragapult          |   41 |  25.31% |  51.22% |
| 5    | Equilibra          |   40 |  24.69% |  70.00% |
| 6    | Great Tusk         |   36 |  22.22% |  38.89% |
| 7    | Kingambit          |   34 |  20.99% |  61.76% |
| 8    | Iron Moth          |   31 |  19.14% |  38.71% |
| 9    | Rillaboom          |   28 |  17.28% |  57.14% |
| 10   | Zapdos             |   27 |  16.67% |  59.26% |
| 11   | Caribolt           |   21 |  12.96% |  38.10% |
| 11   | Gholdengo          |   21 |  12.96% |  33.33% |
| 13   | Iron Valiant       |   20 |  12.35% |  60.00% |
| 14   | Stratagem          |   19 |  11.73% |  68.42% |
| 14   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |   19 |  11.73% |  63.16% |
| 14   | Krilowatt          |   19 |  11.73% |  52.63% |
| 14   | Heatran            |   19 |  11.73% |  47.37% |
| 18   | Ting-Lu            |   18 |  11.11% |  55.56% |
| 18   | Miasmaw            |   18 |  11.11% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Slowking-Galar     |   16 |   9.88% |  62.50% |
| 20   | Zamazenta-*        |   16 |   9.88% |  62.50% |
| 22   | Arghonaut          |   13 |   8.02% |  61.54% |
| 22   | Malaconda          |   13 |   8.02% |  46.15% |
| 22   | Walking Wake       |   13 |   8.02% |  38.46% |
| 25   | Samurott-Hisui     |   12 |   7.41% |  58.33% |
| 26   | Manaphy            |   11 |   6.79% |  54.55% |
| 26   | Mollux             |   11 |   6.79% |  54.55% |
| 28   | Dragonite          |   10 |   6.17% |  30.00% |
| 29   | Cinderace          |    9 |   5.56% |  55.56% |
| 29   | Hatterene          |    9 |   5.56% |  22.22% |
| 31   | Gouging Fire       |    8 |   4.94% |  62.50% |
| 31   | Glimmora           |    8 |   4.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Syclant            |    8 |   4.94% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |    8 |   4.94% |  25.00% |
| 35   | Skeledirge         |    7 |   4.32% |  71.43% |
| 35   | Venomicon-Epilogue |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Clefable           |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Saharaja           |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Colossoil          |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Garganacl          |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 41   | Clodsire           |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Greninja-*         |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Plasmanta          |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Pajantom           |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Deoxys-Speed       |    6 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Iron Boulder       |    6 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Roaring Moon       |    6 |   3.70% |  33.33% |
| 49   | Amoonguss          |    5 |   3.09% |  60.00% |
| 49   | Gliscor            |    5 |   3.09% |  60.00% |
| 49   | Jumbao             |    5 |   3.09% |  40.00% |
| 49   | Cawmodore          |    5 |   3.09% |  40.00% |
| 49   | Hawlucha           |    5 |   3.09% |  40.00% |
| 54   | Enamorus           |    4 |   2.47% |  75.00% |
| 54   | Munkidori          |    4 |   2.47% |  75.00% |
| 54   | Ribombee           |    4 |   2.47% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Pelipper           |    4 |   2.47% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Tomohawk           |    4 |   2.47% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Volcarona          |    4 |   2.47% |  50.00% |
| 60   | Iron Treads        |    3 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 60   | Slowking           |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Ninetales-Alola    |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Armarouge          |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Smokomodo          |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Revenankh          |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Archaludon         |    3 |   1.85% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Aurumoth           |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Astrolotl          |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Tyranitar          |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Fidgit             |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Moltres-Galar      |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Naviathan          |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Toxapex            |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Pyroak             |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Tornadus-Therian   |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 60   | Crawdaunt          |    3 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Crucibelle         |    2 |   1.23% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Barraskewda        |    2 |   1.23% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Dondozo            |    2 |   1.23% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Snaelstrom         |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Abomasnow          |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Landorus-Therian   |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Rotom-Wash         |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Sinistcha          |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Excadrill          |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Latios             |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Corviknight        |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Azelf              |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Garchomp           |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Kerfluffle         |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Hydrapple          |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Rotom-Heat         |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Necturna           |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Conkeldurr         |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Empoleon           |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Cresselia          |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Latias             |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Reuniclus          |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Pawmot             |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 93   | Mandibuzz          |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Slither Wing       |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Iron Hands         |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Kommo-o            |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Meloetta           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Wo-Chien           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Ursaluna           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Ogerpon            |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Overqwil           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Volkraken          |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Meowscarada        |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Scizor             |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Skarmory           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Keldeo             |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Darkrai            |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Weavile            |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Raging Bolt        |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Sandy Shocks       |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Kitsunoh           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |

Amamama · Jan 17, 2024

I copied the role compendium from OU and edited in the CAPs where Necessary. I will try to work on this to make it a bit easier to find the actually good stuff

1. Utility

Entry Hazards:

Spikes: :Arghonaut:

(Ceaseless Edge) :sandy shocks:

|

(Ceaseless Edge)

Stealth Rock: :archaludon:

Stratagem: :ting-lu:

|

(Stone Axe)

Sticky Web: :ribombee:

:Snaelstrom

Toxic Spikes: :Chromera:

(Toxic Debris) :gliscor:

tentacruel:

Hazard Control:
Defog: :Astrolotl:

|

Magic Bounce: :hatterene:

(Rebound)

Court Change: :cinderace:

|

Rapid Spin / Mortal Spin: :Caribolt:

|

Tidy Up:

Support:
Healing Wish / Lunar Dance: :alomomola:

|

Wish:

|

Screens Setters: :Astrolotl:

|

Other:
Knock Off (Offensively): :blaziken:

|

Knock Off (Defensively): :Arghonaut:

|

Encore:

:Kerfluffl: :ninetales-alola:

|

Taunt: :

: Hemogoblin: :iron valiant:

:|

Trick / Switcheroo: :Aurumoth:

|

2. Offensive Roles

Wallbreakers:
Physical: :Colossoil:

|

Special:

|

Mixed:

|

Choice Item Users:</p><p>Choice Band: :barraskewda:

|

Choice Specs: :Chromera:

|

Choice Scarf: :Chromera:

Voodoom:|

Setup Sweepers:
Agility: :enamorus:

|

Belly Drum: | :azumarill:

Bulk Up:

Revenankh: :Smokomodo:

|

Calm Mind: :Chromera:

|

Clangorous Soul: :kommo-o:

Curse:

Dragon Dance: :dragapult:

Growth:

|

Iron Defense: :corviknight:

|

Nasty Plot: :darkrai:

|

Quiver Dance: :volcarona:

|

Shell Smash: :Necturna:

|

Swords Dance: :blaziken:

samurott-hisui: :scizor:

|

Tail Glow: :Aurumoth:

Take Heart: :manaphy:

Victory Dance: :lilligant-hisui:

Priority:

Aqua Jet: :barraskewda:

|

Bullet Punch: :scizor:

Extreme Speed: :dragonite:

Ice Shard: :weavile:

|

Mach Punch: | :breloom:

Quick Attack: :scizor:

Shadow Sneak: :ceruledge:

Sucker Punch: :cinderace:

|

Prankster:

:Grimmsnarl:

Vacuum Wave: :iron valiant:

|

Water Shuriken: :greninja:

3. Defensive Roles

Walls:
Physically Defensive: :alomomola:

|

Specially Defensive: :clodsire:

|

Mixed:

|

Pivots:
Offensive: :blaziken:

|

Defensive: :Arghonaut:

|

singaporygon · Jan 17, 2024

Wow thank you so much Amamama, for this fantastic effort and contribution.

(p.s. Do you think Stored Power should have its own category?)

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

I have some personal things to speak on regarding cap, albeit I mainly do cap mono the tier still applies battle wise:

:cresceidon:

Let’s talk about how this moon was anticipated on paper but give or take at least a month or two in practice it just fell of entirely? I love the idea of this mon, but it just..feels lack luster.

:chromera:

Now a double weakness to fighting is never good but its ability is actually abysmal. The literal double weak to fighting gen 3 Kecleon that just sits in the teambuilder. Should there need to be a rework why not implement something similar to adaptability, regenerator, magic guard, etc. Something that can make it become a tad more viable, yeah?

skippergamez · Feb 2, 2024

bruised said:
Now a double weakness to fighting is never good but its ability is actually abysmal. The literal double weak to fighting gen 3 Kecleon that just sits in the teambuilder. Should there need to be a rework why not implement something similar to adaptability, regenerator, magic guard, etc. Something that can make it become a tad more viable, yeah?

Just pointing out that an ability change will never happen and if it did it would be to another trash ability (like Traunt/Defeatist/Slow Start or something) cause that was the concept of Chomera.

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

skippergamez said:
Just pointing out that an ability change will never happen and if it did it would be to another trash ability (like Traunt/Defeatist/Slow Start or something) cause that was the concept of Chomera.

We can only cross our fingers and hope that it could sometime. It looks like it has some potential but its overall ability is slowing it down. I’d even go as far as to say regenerator.

singaporygon · Feb 2, 2024

bruised said:
I have some personal things to speak on regarding cap, albeit I mainly do cap mono the tier still applies battle wise:

Let’s talk about how this moon was anticipated on paper but give or take at least a month or two in practice it just fell of entirely? I love the idea of this mon, but it just..feels lack luster.

Now a double weakness to fighting is never good but its ability is actually abysmal. The literal double weak to fighting gen 3 Kecleon that just sits in the teambuilder. Should there need to be a rework why not implement something similar to adaptability, regenerator, magic guard, etc. Something that can make it become a tad more viable, yeah?

I can't really comment about Surfin' USA, but regarding Chromera:
Bad Ability is the whole idea behind the CAP, and Color Change was voted by the community in Gen8.
So giving it a good ability is just like giving up on it and replacing it with an entirely new mon.

It's typing also wasn't always Normal/Dark, but changed to that typing by voting.
So we probably won't change the base typing again.

Perhaps we can buff it with some moves, idk, but it's more likely we'll just wait until what Gen10 looks like and perhaps revisit Simba then.

Your best bet may be to treat it like a very fragile balance-breaker and bring it in safely with pivots, and try to kill stuff with Specs Boombursts and Dark Pulses.

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

singaporygon said:
I can't really comment about Surfin' USA, but regarding Chromera:
Bad Ability is the whole idea behind the CAP, and Color Change was voted by the community in Gen8.
So giving it a good ability is just like giving up on it and replacing it with an entirely new mon.

It's typing also wasn't always Normal/Dark, but changed to that typing by voting.
So we probably won't change the base typing again.

Perhaps we can buff it with some moves, idk, but it's more likely we'll just wait until what Gen10 looks like and perhaps revisit Simba then.

See, you and the user prior actually made me actually sit and think. I never knew it was made to intentionally have a bad ability. Though the thought of even the slightest of buffs could make it better..? Idk I’m probably inhaling copium. Also surfing USA? LOL.

singaporygon · Feb 2, 2024

bruised said:
See, you and the user prior actually made me actually sit and think. I never knew it was made to intentionally have a bad ability. Though the thought of even the slightest of buffs could make it better..? Idk I’m probably inhaling copium. Also surfing USA? LOL.

Yeah I think you're right regarding some buffs. Personally I'd be down for that sooner than later, so it can see some more usage this gen.

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

singaporygon said:
Yeah I think you're right regarding some buffs. Personally I'd be down for that sooner than later, so it can see some more usage this gen.

That’s why I addressed regenerator. It isn’t an overall buff that could take away its signature design, but at least something to give it a better niche that what it already has. Maybe recover, slack off, some hp regen if not.

Concept Everything · Feb 2, 2024

bruised said:
I have some personal things to speak on regarding cap, albeit I mainly do cap mono the tier still applies battle wise:

Let’s talk about how this moon was anticipated on paper but give or take at least a month or two in practice it just fell of entirely? I love the idea of this mon, but it just..feels lack luster.

Cresceidon is one of the best defensive Pokemon within the metagame, because of Multiscale it can effectively check most setup Pokémon within the metagame and scare them out with the potential hazard of being encored or paralyzed or burned. It effectively answers a majority of the used strategies within the metagame. It’s still consistently being used in tours as a defensive check to various Pokémon. Ig it feels lackluster offensively, but that’s a good thing to have otherwise we would have an issue with a hard to kill Pokémon breaking through teams easily, especially with its relatively good bulk and great speed tier.

bruised said:
Now a double weakness to fighting is never good but its ability is actually abysmal. The literal double weak to fighting gen 3 Kecleon that just sits in the teambuilder. Should there need to be a rework why not implement something similar to adaptability, regenerator, magic guard, etc. Something that can make it become a tad more viable, yeah?

Chromera is unironically busted with a real ability.

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

Concept Everything said:
Cresceidon is one of the best defensive Pokemon within the metagame, because of Multiscale it can effectively check most setup Pokémon within the metagame and scare them out with the potential hazard of being encored or paralyzed or burned. It effectively answers a majority of the used strategies within the metagame. It’s still consistently being used in tours as a defensive check to various Pokémon. Ig it feels lackluster offensively, but that’s a good thing to have otherwise we would have an issue with a hard to kill Pokémon breaking through teams easily, especially with its relatively good bulk and great speed tier.

Chromera is unironically busted with a real ability.

Could you put the Chromera being busted with a real ability into perspective for me? I hear you, I’m just not seeing the vision chief.

singaporygon · Feb 2, 2024

bruised said:
That’s why I addressed regenerator. It isn’t an overall buff that could take away its signature design, but at least something to give it a better niche that what it already has. Maybe recover, slack off, some hp regen if not.

Nah sorry, Regenerator would take away it's signature design.

It already has Recover. I gtg and won't reply on this matter further, but it might need something like Revival Blessing or Physical+WickedBlow lmao (somewhat joking).

Best way to enjoy CAP imo, is to use between 1-3 top ranked CAPs on the viability list, and then use OU mons to fill in what you need to succeed.

Hope you enjoy the meta!

Elvira · Feb 2, 2024

singaporygon said:
Nah sorry, Regenerator would take away it's signature design.

It already has Recover. I gtg and won't reply on this matter further, but it might need something like Revival Blessing or Physical+WickedBlow lmao (somewhat joking).

Best way to enjoy CAP imo, is to use between 1-3 top ranked CAPs on the viability list, and then use OU mons to fill in what you need to succeed.

Hope you enjoy the meta!

Have a wonderful day, nice chatting with you! :)

Metagame Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion

You've Gotta Try

✧Rey de los Snom✧

Pizza Time

You've Gotta Try

✧Rey de los Snom✧

You've Gotta Try

Pizza Time

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Neko no Ensekan

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