Why is Sableye a problem?
I have been thinking on this for a minute now, and I have somewhat lax to make a post, considering that I have not seen many others bring this up -- and what better way to accomplish something than by asking the apathetic to voice an opinion of support? -- but I have finally come around to it now after seeing it used, even spammed, by certain players in ADV Seasonal, CI7 play-ins, and in side tournaments. I think Sableye needs to be considered for tiering action because it makes preparing Snorlax offense and Spin stall/balance in tournament difficult.
What is the Sableye team?
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I have seen more takes on Sableye from other players in ADV Seasonal, but out of respect to any of them who may be playing in the ongoing CI7, I will not reveal their comps.
It started as a new take on the vir5in teams that were so popular a year ago, the 5+1s of Skarmory, Blissey, Claydol, Milotic, and Dugtrio. Skarmory stalls often struggle to deal with Snorlax or Magneton play styles without fitting mons like Tyranitar, Metagross, or Gengar who might occupy slots better used for defensive heavy-lifters, like how Misdreavus is used on the superman stall ABR posted in the team dump thread. Sableye solves the problem of Snorlax entirely by itself by using Psych Up to manage Curse Lax, and offers a sizeable advantage in the Claydol match-up. This supercharges one of the strongest play styles of the last year by patching its single biggest weakness, while giving it all-around playable match-ups. This is a problem because being able to trade is a pillar of offense, and there is no natural(/existing) support system for Lax that allows it to have any play against Sableye without critting, and Lax is already spread thin for move slots to be running anti-Sableye techs like Toxic or Yawn. When some of the more popular offense teams of yesteryear were Claydol+Snorlax bulky offenses, and when some of the strongest heaviest offenses like Snorlax for its ability to bully stall, a team like this can have a big impact in how you prepare for an opponent who uses it often enough in their repertoire.
The weaknesses of this style are Skarm+Aero, Skarm+Mag+CB Mence, Superman with anti-Claydol techs, and Magneton+heavy breakers in general. The Dugtrio versions of the team exacerbate weaknesses to the CB bird and superman team styles, due to its relative passivity, while improving the match-up against heavy grounded breakers, like Heracross, CB Meta, CB Tar, and others. The Aero version offers consistency in the worst match-ups while giving up some safety against the grounded breakers. Sableye also struggles to block Spin against Starmie and Pursuit Tar+Rapid Spin due to its mediocre special defense stat, but those are rare by comparison, and Dugtrio can help trap both.
Dex spread calc for Starmie after Seismic Toss, assuming it is Knocked:
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Gengar Spikes played well can also be an annoyance, but the most dangerous of those teams are Aero teams, who struggle to fit Spin, and those are relatively level match-ups when they cannot trade 2-for-1 against a team with three Recover users. Cloyster can potentially give problems to Sableye as well, but struggles for longevity and is not necessarily the most spammable or easy to build. One can also look to Zapdos+Dugtrio special offense and use Sub Cune to prepare for this particular team, but I would argue the viability of Zap+Dug against players who spam ABR teams is limited by the fact they also have to prepare for one of his many Celebi+Blissey teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-593491
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-646667
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-663147
So what? Why should we ban it?
Sableye is not uncounterable and the team has flaws. Still, there is a bigger question concerning what we would like the tier to look like going forward. I would like to highlight a few meta-specific concerns I have with these teams.
1. Sableye does not have to be used in a particular tournament set or game to bend the preparation for the team in the favor of a player who has regularly used it in the past. This means players must learn to adapt to this team, or risk regularly losing to it with best play from both sides. This means an opponent is more freely able to diversify their scout and take bigger risks in preparing for Snorlax or Claydol because one is less likely to bring them when expecting a losing match-up. A player can more accurately dictate the line of preparation for his opponent if his range in team-building/-use is wide enough. A practical example would be the ABR Misdreavus superman becoming stronger against players who might otherwise bring Magneton+Snorlax. This is true of all meta-shifting teams, but a larger issue is the direction of the shift this team enforces.
2. The Aerodactyl version of the team was made to solve the problems of the Dugtrio version of the team, but this does not invalidate the worth of the Dugtrio version. If we could streamline prep to one particular version of the team, then a clear path to preparing a rebuttal in the builder could be made, but there is still value in soft-fishing as the match-up coverage of both teams is fairly robust.
3. If you agree with my match-up analysis above, the conclusion is that the common thread to countering Sableye is to embrace more and safer Spikes options, streamlining the metagame into a more stallish and Spikes-centric direction. Skarm use it as an all-time high, climbing from 28% in SPL XII, prior to ABR's CI5 win, to 45% and 52% in the following SPLs. Interestingly, the slightly less exclusive Callous invitational does not follow the same trend, with around one third of teams carrying Skarmory in the last two years -- up from 20% the year previous, but down from 40% the year before that. This is unhealthy for metagame diversity in how strongly it refutes or devalues existing Snorlax and Claydol team-styles, which will in turn buff other Skarmory teams once they do not have to prepare for a decline in those particular teams.
4. The ADV metagame has been the gold standard for playability. The worst match-ups historically could be outplayed, if one were willing to bring relatively safe teams, and Rapid Spin bulky offenses were never particularly risky. Of course, metagames evolve, and the definition of what is 'safe' changes along with optimizations in different team styles. I would argue the question is not whether we can accept Sableye as an option in the tier but rather whether it contributes to the tier we would like to play. The Snorlax teams I mentioned before have not been particularly dominant, while the bulky spin offenses Altina championed to a phenomenal third place in CI5 and a solid SPL XIII -- not to mention his excellent beatdown Skarm CroCune team from around SPL XI -- did see plenty of use for their contributions to mixed and bulky offense. Those are fun and valuable teams in the context of an ADV metagame where they aren't harshly punished by every Skarmory+ghost team left unchecked by an extinct Magneton+Snorlax(+Hera, etc.) physical offense team.
In short...
I think Sableye is suffocating in the builder because it becomes a silver bullet for Snorlax teams for at least the next year or two. Maybe everybody embraces the team styles that beat it, and we see the meta come back around to Lax in a few years, and everybody realizes what a bad idea it was to use an NU mon in OU play. Or maybe this marks a period of more extreme match-up disparities where the expectation is that the tier is more unstable and segmented by an RPS-like quality to picking what you do and do not prepare for based on complicated guess-work and scouting. I suspect the path of least resistance for some is giving up on building Snorlax and Claydol bulky offense teams for a while against some of the best players in the tier who use Sableye -- never mind newer faces to the most competitive sides of the tour scene like Lax and Empo who have used ABR's teams in ADVPL III and CI play-ins or the ladderers who are taking notes and stealing his teams. I do not believe Sableye is a healthy part of a balanced and diverse ADV metagame, and I fully expect the people who are using it to see easy success with accurate play against some of the more common teams in current standard play. We can adapt, or we can retier, and I would be perfectly comfortable losing Sableye in OU play if it means the tier is more fun to play and if preparing in tour becomes more symmetrical and balanced. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.
Edit (Early CI Update):
TL;DR the Above:
I have taken a moment to consider the feedback I have gotten on this, and I have built plenty more teams to evolve my perspective and test new ideas, and I continue to feel that Sableye Vir5in/Vir4in+Aero has the potential to be extremely unhealthy for the more offensive options in the tier. I would like to reiterate that the problem is not only concerning the teams being built at present, but also with the potential builds in the metagame.
Keeping it brief, it is my opinion that the best abusers of Spikes are Pokemon that struggle with consistent damage output. The goal of the game is to cause all of your opponent's Pokemon to faint before yours. This necessarily means getting 2-for-1 value or better at some point throughout the course of the game. This involves a combination of dealing damage while outlasting your opponent's offense. For certain strategic offenses -- per the definition Vapicuno lays out in his offense teambuilding guide -- with mons like Agility Metagross, Sub Cune, or a Dragon Dancer or two, for example, this can be accomplished by using Magneton and/or trading mons/chip on relevant targets until your wincon is ready to sweep. Sometimes, this can be an Agility Metagross taking down four mons, a Sub Cune sweeping from lead, or even a DD Tar with perfect flinches and crits, depending on how prepared your opponent is and how lucky you are.
In short, offense does not abuse Spikes as well as teams with defensive backbone mons and revenge killers do. Aero, Dugtrio, and Blissey are the best abusers of Spikes. We have seen the power of Spin blocking leveraged to great effect to weaponize all-in-on-Spikes play-styles, centered around Blissey in a number of tournament games. Most notably, ABR and Arctic have found success using Misdreavus, funky Gengar sets, and more recently, Sableye, on some brilliantly creative ideas.
A few replays to illustrate the floor-raising potential of three permanent layers supported by ghosts:
McMeghan (w/ ABR's Missy team) vs Sadlysius, SPL XIV w5
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-676586
A perfect case of an unkillable ghost getting the match-up. Notice how the Blissey for McMeghan is Aromatherapy. Superman wants Wish or, as seen on more topical builds, Rest spam+Aromatherapy. Otherwise, this team style tends to struggle with physical pressure. My own personal take on the team fits Jirachi for Wish support in place of Moltres, occupying a similar role as a Metagross and CMer check, to free up a slot on Blissey, allowing it to run a more ambitious set.
Arctic vs Johnnyg2, CI7 r2 g2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-704311
Similar to a team Arctic used against McMeghan in SPL XIV w4. There's no Blissey here, but we see how painful it is to play against a bulky, unkillable ghost for a Forretress team without Pursuit support -- an archetype that is seeing more exploration in recent tournaments since SPL XIV, including from Hclat and a few others whose replays are not publicly available.
ABR vs Hclat, CI5 r6 g1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-586608
Even after a DD Tar mishap, ABR is able to maintain pressure with Spikes and by forcing switches with Blissey and Claydol, while making progress with a passive Gengar set, whose sole purposes are to annoy defensive (in particular, Spin-oriented) teams while patching a Snorlax weakness.
Again, why Sableye?
Misdreavus crumples in the face of Suit Tar and Shadow Ball Lax, while switching into next to nothing. ABR has also attempted to make Dusclops, another meme-tier ghost, work on Vir5in. It can't really switch into too much freely, and it is prone to being Suit- or Dug-trapped in the mirror. Gengar also loses to Pursuit and cannot switch into Snorlax entirely comfortably. None of these mons really like switching into fighters with Hidden Power Ghost either. Sableye is also prone to Suit trapping, absent Dugtrio. So why is Sableye in particular the problem?
Sableye is less prone to Dugtrio trapping. It can Knock Off and Recover stall vs Dugtrio, who does a little under half to Sableye most of the time when banded. Snorlax Shadow Ball absolutely destroys the other ghosts and can trade out non-Wisp+Rest Gar, and with Claydol, Gar struggles to beat Spin bulky offense. This means Magneton physical offense and Claydol physical and mixed offenses have a solid niche challenging these team styles. Sableye fits much more easily next to Milo+Blissey and liberates Blissey to run more threatening sets for these reasons. Other topical Blissey teams, like SkarmMag and Superman want Wish and Aroma Bliss to weather physical pressure and last longer.
Sadlysius vs Arctic, CI7 r1 g1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-703076
Here, we see Snorlax destroying a Misdreavus team before RNG and a few inaccurate decisions lead to a fatal last-mon Lax vs Perish Song Missy endgame.
The weaponization of Blissey leads to more restrictions in the builder when preparing for Blissey. We saw in Johnnyg2's CI7 r1 game 2 against Garay Oak big 5 Molt with CM Bliss stop a Sub Cune dead in its tracks. Loading Cune into CM Bliss is already horrible, but when people stop using Cune in response -- or when preparing for an opponent with low-Cune use -- Bliss can tech for other match-ups. When Bliss is free to run Thunder Wave, Toxic Bolt Beam, and CM on the same team with little-to-no opporunity cost outside of extreme match-ups against riskier team styles, it becomes hard to prepare for it. Sub Cune for Twave Bliss stall? Everyone knows CM is a good option there. Alright, then maybe Curse Pert to pressure Blissey after trading out Milo. But it's Toxic Bliss that lands on the switch, and Sableye came in to Psych Up your Curse and Knock you off, choking off both Lax and Pert from trading up in your game. Maybe you want to pressure with Meteor Mash and set up an Agility Metagross sweep -- against Thunder Wave Blissey.
No other team style than Vir5in has so much freedom to run whatever Blissey set without being punished or impotent once its Spikes are spun away. Forre teams allow Bliss to have a free hand, fitting Wish on Jirachi or Mix Mence, but have some common difficult match-ups in turn. Every team has its give-and-take, but Sableye gives Bliss the chance to win a large number of games against teams reasonably prepared for every other team style on match-up. There is no new wrinkle in an old team or new tech that flips the match-up on its head: Claydol and Snorlax are dead slots against Sableye, assuming you run the sets that give advantage against typical Blissey teams. The match-up advantage of Sableye into a Snorlax team, where Snorlax is expected to get good value against stall, potentially even sweeping with an offensive (non-Rest) set, is entirely unplayable, and with Dugtrio to eliminate all grounded threats, the cost-benefit of using Sableye is not bad at all.
Potential Implications on the metagame:
We have seen quite a few instances of Snorlax this CI, including Claydol and Magneton offenses. This is good for diversity. As shown in the replays above, you do not need Sableye to create a nightmare scenario of three layers against a bulkier, slower team style. Snorlax offers healthy counterplay against all other forms of ghost stall with Shadow Ball allowing it to trade 1-for-1 or even sweep stall teams. In recent CI tour games, Lax has been paired with Celebi, Suit Tar, Claydol, and even Blissey to address some of its shortcomings and make more consistent and valuable teams for the meta. We have seen plenty of instances of Lax this tournament, including on a spammed Ludicolo team, and we have even seen Lax shine in its role as one of the premier stall-breakers. What we have to now not seen is blatant fishing Sableye+Dugtrio, which could ruin those teams without much in-game interactivity
As mentioned before, the problematic team for me is Sableye vir5in. When you have a Dugtrio to trap fighters, Suit Tar, and Starmie, the counterplay against Spin is limited. The natural counters are then Mag, Superman, Aero, Cloyster, and potentially Dugtrio special offense teams, to deal with Spikes and backbone deficiencies respectively. When the most consistent and widely accepted versions of these teams are Skarmory teams with backbone and a revenge killer -- by-and-large Blissey teams and Skarm+Cele+Aero -- it is obvious that the tendency is to further centralize to Spikes balance and around Skarmory. I would be remiss to deminish the quality of the other attempts being made to challenge Skarmory's primacy, but we have already seen several miserable instances of Cloyster and Forretress being Mashed into oblivion or roasted by Fire Blast on the switch. These teams are fun, and many of them are great. I think in the right match-ups, those teams could really shine and even dominate. I will even be using or building takes on some of them going forward, or searching for ideas to use against them. It can even be said that most of the recent innovations have been in a different vein from the bog-standard SkarmBliss teams that have ruled the meta since the creation ofbig 5, or even since CI5. Blissey teams do not need to be more centralizing or free to tech for any match-up they want to.
I love almost every competitive play style, and I build everything to share with friends for tour. I'm not concerned with my own personal success in tournament play, because I find the challenge of perfecting a team much more stimulating. I love these Sableye teams conceptually, and I think they are brilliant. In contrast to the other teams with ghosts, however, I do not think there are many angles from which to reasonably prepare for a scout balanced with Sableye Vir5in(/Aero+Milo), and that limits creativity. It is already tricky enough to prepare for Missy consistently (so you aren't hemorrhaging elo on the ladder or getting fished in tour against the new Missy or Rest Gar team) without a fight. I am under no illusions as to how consistent or spammable these teams actually are. There are a few players who can be farmed by ghosts and CM Bliss individually, let alone in tandem, in tour, and it takes away one of the genuinely beautiful aspects of preparing in ADV: the ability to midground in preparation without being punished for guessing wrong. More diversity is better, less RPS is better, and unfair match-ups are unfair regardless of how often we see them in tournament play. I would argue Sableye being able to blanket every Snorlax and Claydol team makes it more spammable than Mr. Mime in bo1, and it nerfs the offense player's toolkit, if only by freeing an even fishier form of stall that skimps on prepping for Lax. In a tier where most offensive teams aim to trade up 2-for-1, a match-up where you are playing down 2 mons that form a pillar of modern and potentially future ADV and 3 layers vs the Blissey set that bots you an is anti-competitive and non-interactive one.
I have been thinking on this for a minute now, and I have somewhat lax to make a post, considering that I have not seen many others bring this up -- and what better way to accomplish something than by asking the apathetic to voice an opinion of support? -- but I have finally come around to it now after seeing it used, even spammed, by certain players in ADV Seasonal, CI7 play-ins, and in side tournaments. I think Sableye needs to be considered for tiering action because it makes preparing Snorlax offense and Spin stall/balance in tournament difficult.
What is the Sableye team?
+/I have seen more takes on Sableye from other players in ADV Seasonal, but out of respect to any of them who may be playing in the ongoing CI7, I will not reveal their comps.
It started as a new take on the vir5in teams that were so popular a year ago, the 5+1s of Skarmory, Blissey, Claydol, Milotic, and Dugtrio. Skarmory stalls often struggle to deal with Snorlax or Magneton play styles without fitting mons like Tyranitar, Metagross, or Gengar who might occupy slots better used for defensive heavy-lifters, like how Misdreavus is used on the superman stall ABR posted in the team dump thread. Sableye solves the problem of Snorlax entirely by itself by using Psych Up to manage Curse Lax, and offers a sizeable advantage in the Claydol match-up. This supercharges one of the strongest play styles of the last year by patching its single biggest weakness, while giving it all-around playable match-ups. This is a problem because being able to trade is a pillar of offense, and there is no natural(/existing) support system for Lax that allows it to have any play against Sableye without critting, and Lax is already spread thin for move slots to be running anti-Sableye techs like Toxic or Yawn. When some of the more popular offense teams of yesteryear were Claydol+Snorlax bulky offenses, and when some of the strongest heaviest offenses like Snorlax for its ability to bully stall, a team like this can have a big impact in how you prepare for an opponent who uses it often enough in their repertoire.
The weaknesses of this style are Skarm+Aero, Skarm+Mag+CB Mence, Superman with anti-Claydol techs, and Magneton+heavy breakers in general. The Dugtrio versions of the team exacerbate weaknesses to the CB bird and superman team styles, due to its relative passivity, while improving the match-up against heavy grounded breakers, like Heracross, CB Meta, CB Tar, and others. The Aero version offers consistency in the worst match-ups while giving up some safety against the grounded breakers. Sableye also struggles to block Spin against Starmie and Pursuit Tar+Rapid Spin due to its mediocre special defense stat, but those are rare by comparison, and Dugtrio can help trap both.
Dex spread calc for Starmie after Seismic Toss, assuming it is Knocked:
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Gengar Spikes played well can also be an annoyance, but the most dangerous of those teams are Aero teams, who struggle to fit Spin, and those are relatively level match-ups when they cannot trade 2-for-1 against a team with three Recover users. Cloyster can potentially give problems to Sableye as well, but struggles for longevity and is not necessarily the most spammable or easy to build. One can also look to Zapdos+Dugtrio special offense and use Sub Cune to prepare for this particular team, but I would argue the viability of Zap+Dug against players who spam ABR teams is limited by the fact they also have to prepare for one of his many Celebi+Blissey teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-593491
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-646667
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-663147
So what? Why should we ban it?
Sableye is not uncounterable and the team has flaws. Still, there is a bigger question concerning what we would like the tier to look like going forward. I would like to highlight a few meta-specific concerns I have with these teams.
1. Sableye does not have to be used in a particular tournament set or game to bend the preparation for the team in the favor of a player who has regularly used it in the past. This means players must learn to adapt to this team, or risk regularly losing to it with best play from both sides. This means an opponent is more freely able to diversify their scout and take bigger risks in preparing for Snorlax or Claydol because one is less likely to bring them when expecting a losing match-up. A player can more accurately dictate the line of preparation for his opponent if his range in team-building/-use is wide enough. A practical example would be the ABR Misdreavus superman becoming stronger against players who might otherwise bring Magneton+Snorlax. This is true of all meta-shifting teams, but a larger issue is the direction of the shift this team enforces.
2. The Aerodactyl version of the team was made to solve the problems of the Dugtrio version of the team, but this does not invalidate the worth of the Dugtrio version. If we could streamline prep to one particular version of the team, then a clear path to preparing a rebuttal in the builder could be made, but there is still value in soft-fishing as the match-up coverage of both teams is fairly robust.
3. If you agree with my match-up analysis above, the conclusion is that the common thread to countering Sableye is to embrace more and safer Spikes options, streamlining the metagame into a more stallish and Spikes-centric direction. Skarm use it as an all-time high, climbing from 28% in SPL XII, prior to ABR's CI5 win, to 45% and 52% in the following SPLs. Interestingly, the slightly less exclusive Callous invitational does not follow the same trend, with around one third of teams carrying Skarmory in the last two years -- up from 20% the year previous, but down from 40% the year before that. This is unhealthy for metagame diversity in how strongly it refutes or devalues existing Snorlax and Claydol team-styles, which will in turn buff other Skarmory teams once they do not have to prepare for a decline in those particular teams.
4. The ADV metagame has been the gold standard for playability. The worst match-ups historically could be outplayed, if one were willing to bring relatively safe teams, and Rapid Spin bulky offenses were never particularly risky. Of course, metagames evolve, and the definition of what is 'safe' changes along with optimizations in different team styles. I would argue the question is not whether we can accept Sableye as an option in the tier but rather whether it contributes to the tier we would like to play. The Snorlax teams I mentioned before have not been particularly dominant, while the bulky spin offenses Altina championed to a phenomenal third place in CI5 and a solid SPL XIII -- not to mention his excellent beatdown Skarm CroCune team from around SPL XI -- did see plenty of use for their contributions to mixed and bulky offense. Those are fun and valuable teams in the context of an ADV metagame where they aren't harshly punished by every Skarmory+ghost team left unchecked by an extinct Magneton+Snorlax(+Hera, etc.) physical offense team.
In short...
I think Sableye is suffocating in the builder because it becomes a silver bullet for Snorlax teams for at least the next year or two. Maybe everybody embraces the team styles that beat it, and we see the meta come back around to Lax in a few years, and everybody realizes what a bad idea it was to use an NU mon in OU play. Or maybe this marks a period of more extreme match-up disparities where the expectation is that the tier is more unstable and segmented by an RPS-like quality to picking what you do and do not prepare for based on complicated guess-work and scouting. I suspect the path of least resistance for some is giving up on building Snorlax and Claydol bulky offense teams for a while against some of the best players in the tier who use Sableye -- never mind newer faces to the most competitive sides of the tour scene like Lax and Empo who have used ABR's teams in ADVPL III and CI play-ins or the ladderers who are taking notes and stealing his teams. I do not believe Sableye is a healthy part of a balanced and diverse ADV metagame, and I fully expect the people who are using it to see easy success with accurate play against some of the more common teams in current standard play. We can adapt, or we can retier, and I would be perfectly comfortable losing Sableye in OU play if it means the tier is more fun to play and if preparing in tour becomes more symmetrical and balanced. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.
Edit (Early CI Update):
TL;DR the Above:
I have taken a moment to consider the feedback I have gotten on this, and I have built plenty more teams to evolve my perspective and test new ideas, and I continue to feel that Sableye Vir5in/Vir4in+Aero has the potential to be extremely unhealthy for the more offensive options in the tier. I would like to reiterate that the problem is not only concerning the teams being built at present, but also with the potential builds in the metagame.
Keeping it brief, it is my opinion that the best abusers of Spikes are Pokemon that struggle with consistent damage output. The goal of the game is to cause all of your opponent's Pokemon to faint before yours. This necessarily means getting 2-for-1 value or better at some point throughout the course of the game. This involves a combination of dealing damage while outlasting your opponent's offense. For certain strategic offenses -- per the definition Vapicuno lays out in his offense teambuilding guide -- with mons like Agility Metagross, Sub Cune, or a Dragon Dancer or two, for example, this can be accomplished by using Magneton and/or trading mons/chip on relevant targets until your wincon is ready to sweep. Sometimes, this can be an Agility Metagross taking down four mons, a Sub Cune sweeping from lead, or even a DD Tar with perfect flinches and crits, depending on how prepared your opponent is and how lucky you are.
In short, offense does not abuse Spikes as well as teams with defensive backbone mons and revenge killers do. Aero, Dugtrio, and Blissey are the best abusers of Spikes. We have seen the power of Spin blocking leveraged to great effect to weaponize all-in-on-Spikes play-styles, centered around Blissey in a number of tournament games. Most notably, ABR and Arctic have found success using Misdreavus, funky Gengar sets, and more recently, Sableye, on some brilliantly creative ideas.
A few replays to illustrate the floor-raising potential of three permanent layers supported by ghosts:
McMeghan (w/ ABR's Missy team) vs Sadlysius, SPL XIV w5
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-676586
A perfect case of an unkillable ghost getting the match-up. Notice how the Blissey for McMeghan is Aromatherapy. Superman wants Wish or, as seen on more topical builds, Rest spam+Aromatherapy. Otherwise, this team style tends to struggle with physical pressure. My own personal take on the team fits Jirachi for Wish support in place of Moltres, occupying a similar role as a Metagross and CMer check, to free up a slot on Blissey, allowing it to run a more ambitious set.
Arctic vs Johnnyg2, CI7 r2 g2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-704311
Similar to a team Arctic used against McMeghan in SPL XIV w4. There's no Blissey here, but we see how painful it is to play against a bulky, unkillable ghost for a Forretress team without Pursuit support -- an archetype that is seeing more exploration in recent tournaments since SPL XIV, including from Hclat and a few others whose replays are not publicly available.
ABR vs Hclat, CI5 r6 g1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-586608
Even after a DD Tar mishap, ABR is able to maintain pressure with Spikes and by forcing switches with Blissey and Claydol, while making progress with a passive Gengar set, whose sole purposes are to annoy defensive (in particular, Spin-oriented) teams while patching a Snorlax weakness.
Again, why Sableye?
Misdreavus crumples in the face of Suit Tar and Shadow Ball Lax, while switching into next to nothing. ABR has also attempted to make Dusclops, another meme-tier ghost, work on Vir5in. It can't really switch into too much freely, and it is prone to being Suit- or Dug-trapped in the mirror. Gengar also loses to Pursuit and cannot switch into Snorlax entirely comfortably. None of these mons really like switching into fighters with Hidden Power Ghost either. Sableye is also prone to Suit trapping, absent Dugtrio. So why is Sableye in particular the problem?
Sableye is less prone to Dugtrio trapping. It can Knock Off and Recover stall vs Dugtrio, who does a little under half to Sableye most of the time when banded. Snorlax Shadow Ball absolutely destroys the other ghosts and can trade out non-Wisp+Rest Gar, and with Claydol, Gar struggles to beat Spin bulky offense. This means Magneton physical offense and Claydol physical and mixed offenses have a solid niche challenging these team styles. Sableye fits much more easily next to Milo+Blissey and liberates Blissey to run more threatening sets for these reasons. Other topical Blissey teams, like SkarmMag and Superman want Wish and Aroma Bliss to weather physical pressure and last longer.
Sadlysius vs Arctic, CI7 r1 g1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-703076
Here, we see Snorlax destroying a Misdreavus team before RNG and a few inaccurate decisions lead to a fatal last-mon Lax vs Perish Song Missy endgame.
The weaponization of Blissey leads to more restrictions in the builder when preparing for Blissey. We saw in Johnnyg2's CI7 r1 game 2 against Garay Oak big 5 Molt with CM Bliss stop a Sub Cune dead in its tracks. Loading Cune into CM Bliss is already horrible, but when people stop using Cune in response -- or when preparing for an opponent with low-Cune use -- Bliss can tech for other match-ups. When Bliss is free to run Thunder Wave, Toxic Bolt Beam, and CM on the same team with little-to-no opporunity cost outside of extreme match-ups against riskier team styles, it becomes hard to prepare for it. Sub Cune for Twave Bliss stall? Everyone knows CM is a good option there. Alright, then maybe Curse Pert to pressure Blissey after trading out Milo. But it's Toxic Bliss that lands on the switch, and Sableye came in to Psych Up your Curse and Knock you off, choking off both Lax and Pert from trading up in your game. Maybe you want to pressure with Meteor Mash and set up an Agility Metagross sweep -- against Thunder Wave Blissey.
No other team style than Vir5in has so much freedom to run whatever Blissey set without being punished or impotent once its Spikes are spun away. Forre teams allow Bliss to have a free hand, fitting Wish on Jirachi or Mix Mence, but have some common difficult match-ups in turn. Every team has its give-and-take, but Sableye gives Bliss the chance to win a large number of games against teams reasonably prepared for every other team style on match-up. There is no new wrinkle in an old team or new tech that flips the match-up on its head: Claydol and Snorlax are dead slots against Sableye, assuming you run the sets that give advantage against typical Blissey teams. The match-up advantage of Sableye into a Snorlax team, where Snorlax is expected to get good value against stall, potentially even sweeping with an offensive (non-Rest) set, is entirely unplayable, and with Dugtrio to eliminate all grounded threats, the cost-benefit of using Sableye is not bad at all.
Potential Implications on the metagame:
We have seen quite a few instances of Snorlax this CI, including Claydol and Magneton offenses. This is good for diversity. As shown in the replays above, you do not need Sableye to create a nightmare scenario of three layers against a bulkier, slower team style. Snorlax offers healthy counterplay against all other forms of ghost stall with Shadow Ball allowing it to trade 1-for-1 or even sweep stall teams. In recent CI tour games, Lax has been paired with Celebi, Suit Tar, Claydol, and even Blissey to address some of its shortcomings and make more consistent and valuable teams for the meta. We have seen plenty of instances of Lax this tournament, including on a spammed Ludicolo team, and we have even seen Lax shine in its role as one of the premier stall-breakers. What we have to now not seen is blatant fishing Sableye+Dugtrio, which could ruin those teams without much in-game interactivity
As mentioned before, the problematic team for me is Sableye vir5in. When you have a Dugtrio to trap fighters, Suit Tar, and Starmie, the counterplay against Spin is limited. The natural counters are then Mag, Superman, Aero, Cloyster, and potentially Dugtrio special offense teams, to deal with Spikes and backbone deficiencies respectively. When the most consistent and widely accepted versions of these teams are Skarmory teams with backbone and a revenge killer -- by-and-large Blissey teams and Skarm+Cele+Aero -- it is obvious that the tendency is to further centralize to Spikes balance and around Skarmory. I would be remiss to deminish the quality of the other attempts being made to challenge Skarmory's primacy, but we have already seen several miserable instances of Cloyster and Forretress being Mashed into oblivion or roasted by Fire Blast on the switch. These teams are fun, and many of them are great. I think in the right match-ups, those teams could really shine and even dominate. I will even be using or building takes on some of them going forward, or searching for ideas to use against them. It can even be said that most of the recent innovations have been in a different vein from the bog-standard SkarmBliss teams that have ruled the meta since the creation ofbig 5, or even since CI5. Blissey teams do not need to be more centralizing or free to tech for any match-up they want to.
I love almost every competitive play style, and I build everything to share with friends for tour. I'm not concerned with my own personal success in tournament play, because I find the challenge of perfecting a team much more stimulating. I love these Sableye teams conceptually, and I think they are brilliant. In contrast to the other teams with ghosts, however, I do not think there are many angles from which to reasonably prepare for a scout balanced with Sableye Vir5in(/Aero+Milo), and that limits creativity. It is already tricky enough to prepare for Missy consistently (so you aren't hemorrhaging elo on the ladder or getting fished in tour against the new Missy or Rest Gar team) without a fight. I am under no illusions as to how consistent or spammable these teams actually are. There are a few players who can be farmed by ghosts and CM Bliss individually, let alone in tandem, in tour, and it takes away one of the genuinely beautiful aspects of preparing in ADV: the ability to midground in preparation without being punished for guessing wrong. More diversity is better, less RPS is better, and unfair match-ups are unfair regardless of how often we see them in tournament play. I would argue Sableye being able to blanket every Snorlax and Claydol team makes it more spammable than Mr. Mime in bo1, and it nerfs the offense player's toolkit, if only by freeing an even fishier form of stall that skimps on prepping for Lax. In a tier where most offensive teams aim to trade up 2-for-1, a match-up where you are playing down 2 mons that form a pillar of modern and potentially future ADV and 3 layers vs the Blissey set that bots you an is anti-competitive and non-interactive one.
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