RU Suspect Vote 1

[jas61292]

Gotta say, I highly dislike the decision to do this council style. I understand the reasoning for why a ranking based system might not work, but I have always been one of the belief that a decisions made by an appointed council will always be significantly more subjective than those made by the general populace. I mean, a council itself is not bad, but simply choosing people rather than basing it on actual performance just invites subjectivity (not that the council members aren't qualified. That is not what I mean at all. I just think the system is terrible).

That being said, I would certainly like to voice my opinions on the proposed suspects.

Personally I do not think either Alakazam or Sableye is broken. Alakazam is a fast and powerful sweeper, but is very frail, and without a sash will rarely survive a move. Now that doesn't mean it is not good. In fact I have been using him in all 3 tiers with much success. But to be honest, his threat level is no more here than in OU. If you let it get in and start attacking without taking a hit, then yes, it will do major damage. But the same can be said about most sweepers. Top of the tier? Yes. Broken? No. I think he is certainly strong enough to move up the tiers on his own, but I don't think Magic Guard did enough to make it worth banning.

Sableye... is a dick. It is annoying, it is stupid, and it can destroy walls. And it is far from broken. Entei: Dead. Floatzel: Dead. Special Sweeper: Dead. Yeah, he can own walls and destroy stall, but not to an extent that is ridiculous. If your entire team lacks a special sweeper to destroy it, then you have bigger problems than Sableye. So, just like Alakazam, I would say Good? Certainly. Broken? Nope.


EDIT@Below: Oh, I agree with you completely, every method would be subjective. However, a vote is only subjective in one way (the decision), where as a council is subjective in not only that way but also the selection of the people who make the decision. I mean, I am sure all the people on the council are qualified, but being known and respected does not mean you are any more qualified than anyone else. Being known and respected is not an objective test to determine if someone is knowledgeable about the metagame. Additionally, others who may be objectively more qualified aren't given any say.

However, I will also agree that this is not necessarily the best place for this discussion, and will save any more for some other time and place. Yet I do think it would be better to have such a discussion first, before making any decisions.

 

[Heysup]

I know it's not my place (or the place) to defend the council-style choice but I am confused with your reasoning. You're concern is that it's subjective? Are you suggesting that it's less subjective than the rating requirements vote? That vote has no way of even having an argument presented. You just do well with said broken Pokemon and vote but you ARE NOT voting for whether or not the Pokemon is broken, you vote for whether or not YOU want the Pokemon removed from the game. That is not only subjective but it is also not the correct vote.

This way, we actually logically deduce the best answers under direct supervision of the moderators. We can logically deduce the best answer within a small group of people unlike the other methods. Every way of banning is subjective.

If subjectivity is your concern, then we cannot do any sort of banning. If validity is your concern, this method out classes the requirement method.

Anyway, I won't be offended if this and the previous posts are both deleted/edited, it is not the correct place for that discussion, it is for discussing the suspects in question.

 

[Pombo]

I agree with Heysup. Im currently ranked #2 at the RU tier (Ephraim), and i think i AM qualified to make an appropriate vote. But ive seen a lot of starting players in the RU's high ladder (top 25 specially). Things like jolly Entei with ES/FBlitz are pretty common. So the council, even though its not the best option in an utopic world, is the best option for the moment, imo.
Also, we cant complain about the council: every single member is (or should be, at least) known and respected by all of us.

On topic, i think both are broken. My HO team abuses a CM Kazam and nothing, besides specially bulky Gallade with Shadow Sneak, likes to switch in on a CM. Specially now, that Munchlax has been banned by Sableye, who completely shuts it. Kazam is just too strong and durable for the tier, being able to take weaker special attacks with no risk (like scald from uninvested Slowking and such)

My alternate team, a stall one, was ranked #4 (Pombo), but dropped due to decay. Yeah, you guessed right: it abuses sableye to no end, and is f***d by sableye to no end.
The usual match-ups were:

Offensive (bulky, ho, whatever) vs. me: if they carried sableye as anti spinner and anti stall, it was almost a sure gg. If not, i would win if i didnt make any mistakes.

Stall vs. me: Usually decided by Sableye speed EVs. Usually a faster sableye, even if a bit less bulkier, meant instant win. The speed creep generated by it was simply ridiculous.


So, IMO, the metagame will be healthier without Kazam and Sableye. Their disruption power is too much for RU.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'm going to make the case for Sableye being broken, as after using him extensively and seeing what he can do with good support and smart play, I believe he is too much for the tier. Although I am splitting my arguments into parts, please bear in mind that it is the sum of them that leads me to this conclusion, not any one part on its own.

Also note that for the most part I am talking about an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpD, which is imo the best spread since you have Will-o-Wisp and Sableye isn't switching in with anything but a fully invested stat. Going Defense would lower versatility by a lot, so may as well go Special Defense.

1. He destroys most of the tier. It's not about switching in on the entire tier, but once in, he can kill basically anything that isn't a Fire-type or a particularly strong special attacker. If you're not packing Specs or LO, you'd better have a 120 BP STAB attack to use off of good Special Attack, and hope you don't miss while you're being stalled. Lets not forget that the premier special wrecking balls of the tier, Alakazam and Porygon-Z, fare poorly against Sableye. If you're a physical attacker who isn't immune to Burn, you are going to get crippled, and unless you are stronger than LO Honchkrow, you'll get outstalled at that point. And that's just for offensive pokemon - if you're a defensive mon, forget about it. Taunt and a slow, wispy death await. Even Clefable dies if the Sableye user is smart and is running a Dark-type attack instead of Night Shade.

2. He is Over-centralizing. Okay, I know [someone who shall not be named] said it's not a word, and many have said it's not proof that he's broken. To them I answer: "it is now", and "true, but it's a big fucking clue" respectively. This term does have a meaning that is applied to it in common usage, so if you don't like the word let me say this: Sableye requires an extreme amount of team preparation to deal with, more than possibly any other threat in the tier. This is because, as mentioned before, he wrecks such a large amount of the tier. There's more to it, though. With most pokemon, a single check is enough because it's not impossible to break them if something happens to said check - you'll just take more damage than you ordinarily would. Sableye is different, though, because he has priority Recover, Status, Taunt, and potentially even Substitute. This makes him pretty damn resilient, and it's not hard to get him back to health if he takes damage in a match. The only thing you'll succeed in doing by saccing something that doesn't full-on counter Sableye against it is losing a pokemon. This is why most teams out there include at least 4 pokemon that deal with Sableye - for anything else that would be insane overkill. It's like Scizor in Gen 4 OU only much worse because instead of destroying a variety of fast, frail sweepers you're destroying a variety of sweepers in addition to pretty much every defensive mon.

3. Dealing with him creates exploitable weaknesses. This is a good segue into the part of my post where I'll address some counter arguments to Sableye being broken. I seem to remember a lot of people complaining about Yanmega saying things like "sure I can counter it, but I'm forced to run things that are really bad in general in order to do so". I think the same applies with Sableye. I'll tackle these one at a time.



1. Use Fire-types. First, a good Water- or Rock- (or both) type in conjunction with Stealth Rock can stymie those Fire-types super quick. It's really a no-brainer, run a good Fire-type counter along with Sableye. Omastar and Regirock would love to set up Stealth Rock, Lanturn will Volt-Switch scout to ensure you maintain momentum, Kabutops or Omastar can set up Swords Dance or Shell Smash, and even something like Relicanth can throw out CB Head Smashes. If Sableye is running Substitute, you practically don't even need prediction to make a safe switch out of the Fire-type. Thanks to Stealth Rock weakness the cost of a mispredict is very high for the Fire-type user. Many people are saying "run a fire-type, lol" as if that alone takes Sableye out of the equation, but good ol' Stealth Rock honestly means that the Fire-type probably takes more damage than whatever you use to counter it. The common Life Orb users, Moltres and Entei, are taking extra damage in the form of a quad Stealth Rock weakness or Flare Blitz recoil (not to mention Life Orb) so the increased need for prediction there is balanced by the extra damage taken.

2. Use Special Attackers. It really has to be a pretty strong special attacker to 2HKO Sableye. As mentioned before, you need either a 120 BP move or some kind of boosting item to really do it. Keep in mind that if you're forced to spam attacks for ~60% damage to wear down Sableye, it's incredibly easy to make a safe switch into something that will put your opponent in a tough spot. 30% status moves are probably your best bet, but again, you want to get lucky early on because a good player will take advantage any time you set yourself up to be predictable. In my opinion the ball is really in Sableye's court here. Those pokemon who can quickly down Sableye tend to be fairly fragile, and running a lot of these on a team really limits the strategies you can go for. One thing you can do to exploit this is run Calm Mind on a bulky pokemon.

For example, I've been running Sub CM Uxie and it's stupidly effective against the current metagame. I've seen enough physically oriented teams to know that it isn't nearly as effective against them - only these teams tend to be easy to set up a Sableye endgame stall sweep against. The current standard of only one or two physical attackers teams tend to get absolutely destroyed with proper timing - even Alakazam can't finish you at +1 unless you're below 50% health. It's not uncommon to take out the last 4 pokemon. I'm not saying this to brag - it's just that there aren't exactly a glut of good CM users in RU and Uxie is probably the best, although I imagine Entei can do similarly well. Another obvious way to take advantage of all the special attackers is with a strong wall like Lickilicky. Just keep in mind that Sableye will wreck any wall you try to use.

3. Run random Lum Berries everywhere. Sure you can revenge-kill Sableye with a Surprise Lum Berry, but make sure it's something that does more than 70% to it with no boosting item, or you'll just get burned a second time and fail to KO. Lum isn't too random on Sandslash and Armaldo because they're spinners and commonly go up against Ghosts with Will-o-Wisp. Just beware that they are super slow, not incredibly bulky with only HP investment, and require a turn of set up to do any real damage, and are also supposed to find time to spin. Running random Lum berries on your physical sweepers often means you are missing out on the ability to use Sub effectively with Lefties or get a massive boost from Life Orb or a Choice Item. By all means, if you are facing a CM Uxie, put Lum on all of your physical attackers. It will really help.

4. Hitmontop. Having played this scenario from both sides, I don't think Hitmontop has a leg up on Sableye. It has the distinction of actually being able to spin against it, sure, but it's not that great. The problem is that Foresight does absolutely nothing to anything that isn't Sableye, and most players can see it coming a mile away. Alakazam, for instance, really doesn't mind Foresight and can take a Drain Punch. All Sableye has to do is come in on anything that isn't Foresight and he wins. Even if you Foresight him, you have to choose between spinning and trying to kill Sableye. If you spin and lose the Lum then you've lost your trump card and unless you killed all of their hazard layers it's only a temporary victory (and Sableye yet lives). On the other hand, if you go for the kill, you run the risk of him switching and then you have to win a prediction war all over again. This gives you a fighting chance but it's far from a surefire bet.

5. I commonly outplay other ladder players and so have been able to outplay people using Sableye. Cool story bro. I fear a lot of the arguments I have heard boil down to this. I beat an Uber team with my RU team before. That doesn't mean we should let Kyogre into RU. It means it was a crappy player. This is why people really need to use the suspects in earnest instead of just playing against them. This is why I am not saying anything about Alakazam - I haven't used it enough to really know if it's broken or not.

So that covers everything I can currently think of. I've explained why I think he's overly powerful and why I'm not convinced that the suggested countermeasures are enough. Supposedly the council was pretty hastily chosen, and some other top 10 players and I were thinking it would have been a good idea to invite us. Still, I hope you guys take these arguments into account. I trust you will make the right decision for the Peoples' Republic of Smogon.

 

[Heysup]

2. He is Over-centralizing. Okay, I know Heysup said it's not a word, and many have said it's not proof that he's broken. To them I answer: "it is now", and "true, but it's a big fucking clue" respectively. This term does have a meaning that is applied to it in common usage, so if you don't like the word let me say this: Sableye requires an extreme amount of team preparation to deal with, more than possibly any other threat in the tier. This is because, as mentioned before, he wrecks such a large amount of the tier. There's more to it, though. With most pokemon, a single check is enough because it's not impossible to break them if something happens to said check - you'll just take more damage than you ordinarily would. Sableye is different, though, because he has priority Recover, Status, Taunt, and potentially even Substitute. This makes him pretty damn resilient, and it's not hard to get him back to health if he takes damage in a match. The only thing you'll succeed in doing by saccing something that doesn't full-on counter Sableye against it is losing a pokemon. This is why most teams out there include at least 4 pokemon that deal with Sableye - for anything else that would be insane overkill. It's like Scizor in Gen 4 OU only much worse because instead of destroying a variety of fast, frail sweepers you're destroying a variety of sweepers in addition to pretty much every defensive mon.

I was quoting others who said it isn't a word, I've had enough of "Heysup said this isn't a word" because not only is it not my "saying" but it is not relevant at all. Over-centralization is not an argument because it's irrelevant to the power and brokenness of a Pokemon as it is defined by us (usage =/= power, usage = players perception of power). You can say "these people on the ladder all think it's good" and I can say "so what" and it ends there. You can't ban something for being viable.

However, your argument is actually very valid and I 100% agree with it. I'm sure this sounds contradictory as I have just disproved your first few sentences but you actually don't even use "over-centralization" as your argument at all even though you grouped your argument underneath the term. You talk about having to over-prepare for a Pokemon which is a very valid concern and I agree.

 

[kniteowl]

Is Sableye too much for the tier?

Yes, everyone else has already explained why really, It either forces you to run a team full of Special attacks or physical attackers that don't care about burn (eg- guts), are immune (eg - fire types, Water veil Floatzel) or carry a lum berry.

I do consider Sableye a lot like Excadrill in OU, I'm always thinking about how to build a team to counter/check it. I usually end up running things like Magic Bounce Evolite Natu (Natu is awesome btw :P)

As for Alakazam, I'm on the fence really, I haven't used him much but I never think about building a team to counter him, sometimes my team can naturally check him, sometime he destroys me but you get sweept from time to time so Alakazam can go either way.

On paper he does sound over powered, but in practice he doesn't seem too difficult to counter/check, maybe I haven't playing enough, to face people who use Alakazam properly but I usually have at least 1 scarf user and 1 priority user on my team. I can easily see Alakazam going when Sableye is gone.

And here I was expecting Hounchkrow to go after Cress moved up and Mega and Venemoth were banned.

 

[Pocket]

Please don't compare Sableye to Excadrill... Excadrill had only a handful of counters, whereas there are plenty of ways to go around Sableye (you don't need a "Sableye counter"). Unlike Excadrill, Sableye does not have the power to pummel through even prepared teams. Sableye's main weapon is priority Wisp + Taunt + Recover. There are myriad solutions to outmuscle this stall-breaking tactic.

If anything, Sableye is more comparable to Chansey in UU (before the OU drops). If you don't consider Chansey while building your team, then your teams with 4 special sweepers and 2 weak physical attackers wont break through the Egg's thick hide. If you don't prepare for Sableye in some shape or form, don't expect to take it out.

 

[Final Fantasy]

First, sorry for my bad english, I'm pretty sure that something will be wrong on some place of this post. Well. on Ladder I use the Nickname "rudd" and I have been long time in the Top of the Ladder RU (always between #1 and #4) and I am currently at #13 (because of Decay), and I'm too lazy to climb all over again on battles like +2 -30. I don't have screenshots to prove it, and I do not even know if it matters, but just wanted to let you know that is not "anyone" who is talking about the Metagame, and if you really play this metagame you should have seen me at the Top.

@Alakazam: It's very Broken, the arguments of most part of people are "you must have a choice scarf on the team." Then, that means you have to centralize your team to always have something faster than Alakazam. if you do not have, or if it dies during the battle before down Alakazam you do not have nothing else to do. And if you switch a Choice Scarf in front of it, you just can switch coming and going all the day without on the field for doesnt caring about hazards. It doesn't care about being burned or poisoned. Alakazam can have Focus Sash instead of a Life Orb too, and you if you lose your Choice Scarf pokémon (probably the only response against it) is almost a good game. The problem is that most people does not know how to use it. It is meant to be a Late Game Sweeper, more or less like a Excadrill (Yes, yes I am comparing) when the opponent whole team is weakened and there's nothing to do aganist. It is very easy to prepare the field for a sweep of Alakazam, weakening Threats or putting Hazards on the Field to get the KO Range. tl;dr: Ban Alakazam.

@Sableye: I agree with many who have posted here already. Sableye is pretty pretty pretty boring, but there are several ways to be counter it at any tier (the same ways, probably). You can't set up a physically sweeper in front of a Sableye, unless you are a Fire-type pokemon, have Guts, or predict a substitute on Switch. Aganist Sableye WoW's you should have an absorber, or a cleric. I disagree with people that says that Sableye destroys stall. He is good, even against Stall (at really much more than aganis Offensive), but if you have a good Stall Team ou must have Hazards Setupers, Status Inducters, and especially a good Revenge Killer. So, if you have big problems against Sableye (any team have some problem, it's too much annoying!), i only have one thing to say: your team is bad, rebuild it. Otherwise Stall is very usable in RarelyUsed Tier, I've got #1 several times (damn decay) time using my Stall Team. Some good ways to counter Sabyele is getting a Status Absorber, a Cleric, Hazards on Field, have something to cause Status (especially Toxic or Sleep) and have a potent Special Sweeper. Well, I had to say almost a whole team to don't have problems with it, so that's why I guess Sableye centralizes the metagame too much, becouse you'll have to think something that defeats it on each team that you'll build. tl;dr: Ban Sableye.

 

[Final Fantasy]

Well, I should not answer arguments without foundation, but:

If Munchlax @Eviolite 252HP/252SDef (which in my opinion is the best Special Sponge), it will take:

252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 39% - 46% (188 - 222 HP).

252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+Def): 45% - 54% (217 - 256 HP).

It will get a big Hit from any move with a little prediction. And Munchlax can't OHKO back Alakazam without some Attack investiment (that means Munchlax will suffer more Damage).

Like I said before, we should not think Counters of Alakazam in "one aganist one". No offense, but learn how to use an Alakazam before saying that it have Counters. You should think what happens in the late game sweepeing, discounting from Munchlax HP the Damage of possible Hazards and previous damage from others special sweepers that Munchlax defended, becouse if Munchlax is under 40% HP when face Alakazam 2nd Hit (the first was in switch), congratulations, you've reached the KO Range and played right with Brokenzan.

PS: And Munchlax doesn't even learn Crunch, ROFL.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Won't excuse you for attempting to make an argument without checking the facts first.

Spiritomb, probably the most solid counter, isn't even in the tier; Alakazam should probably go.

 

[RotatingAtom]

I won't write a long paragraph about either of the suspects, there are people who can do this better than me. However, here are a few aspects to take into consideration.

Alakazam:
I'd like to compare him to Garchomp for a second. Alakazam only has very few viable sets, which are all hard to counter in the first place, but most of the time, once you've figured out if it is, for example, running a Life Orb or a Focus Sash, it already is too late and you're about to get swept as your counter leaves Zam at 1HP or just flat-out dies to a Life Orb-powered coverage move you didn't expect.
The rest has already been mentionen by a couple of people, although you can't emphasize the importance of his 120 base speed enough. If he was slower, okay, but he isn't.

Sableye:
The fact that it's so common now wouldn't really be a problem if you could easily prepare for it, but you can't. Don't forget that Sableye has 5 teammates as well, and for a Pokémon with Priority Recover, Will-O-Wisp, Taund and Sub, which already has very few weak spots, those are pretty easy to cover.
I don't know if this is worth taking into consideration or not, but I thought I'd point it out, seeing as how building an effective team around Sableye is 200 times easier than building a team that is prepared for both Sableye and its potential teammates.

 

[Nails]

keeping this open a little while longer as the council couldn't meet tonight as planned and so there's no real reason to close it.

i'm liking the stuff being said in this thread, good arguments being made on both sides for sableye, and there's pretty much a general consensus on alakazam.

if you'd like to watch the council meeting it'll be on #rarelyused sometime tomorrow night (most likely). time tbd, but probably between 8-11 est. i'll be posting the log in this thread too for those who are unable to attend.

edit: and you all are encouraged to log on irc whenever... we don't bite (except for honko but we're training him)

 

[EdgeHead]

I agree that Sableye is overcentralising and while it's certainly not unbeatable, I'd say it cripples enough stuff that the metagame would be more balanced with its removal.

But then again I counter it with Synchro Elgyem so what do I know.

 

[Forever aLone]

Ban alakazam, even though i've loved to use him pre magic guard, he is too strong now with magic guard, honchkrow which is an extremely common switch in to it can be beaten by using the sub +3 attack.

Sableye just shuts down too much stuff, two common ways of breaking walls are through toxic or setting up on a wall. None of the above can be done due to priority taunt, sableye got hardcountered by CB entei until people figured out about foul play which basicly is a 2hko without hazards on the field even. Which means entei can only swap in once to threaten it out.

As someone pointed out earlier scarf primeape isn't seen anymore and i can honestly say i've seen one in every laddering season i've done since the start of RU, which is a good indication that non guts/fire physical attacker's arent viable, using lum berry doesn't let you switch in on an sableye which makes it a shaky check.

 

[aurora]

I fail to see what is wrong with Alakazam. Its physical defenses are dreadful (falling to a single crunch and getting 2HKO'd by Bite) and its horrible typing makes it weak to a lot anyway, therefore balancing out its major special strengths.

However, I do agree on banning Sableye - it is just far too good for RU, namely because of Will O Wisp (which it can just use as soon as you come in) and Recover, which it can spam while it destroys you with something like Night Shade (if it goes well in OU, then what's RU then? Chopped liver?)

In short, keep 'Zam, but ban Sableye for the good of the tier.

 

[Turnstoash]

I've played sableye twice so far. Both sets were Wow sub recover confuse ray. I found it screwed over everything on my team except typhlosion. The first time it forced me out because based on the remaining members of our teams I couldn't afford to play with confusion and switched out. The second I went for the eruption, broke through and OHKO'd it. Obviously I don't have enough experiance to decide if it would be banned or not, just thought I throw in my 2 cents.

 

[HART4FLOON]

There is nothing wrong with Sableye. Its defenses are pitiful and as Pocket mentioned above, if you don't prepare your team for it then you deserve to lose to it.

Alakazam fits under the same criteria IMO. If you don't have a counter/check for it, you will lose at least one Pokemon. Otherwise, it actually isn't too problematic and can be handled quite easily. Off the top of my head he can be beaten by Drapion, Skuntank, Sableye, (though they'll have to invest in SpDef) and probably a few others.

So as of now, I'd say keep both of them.

 

[Moo]

Im not one for tl;dr posts

Alakazam

Alakazam is extremely fast, powerful, and is immune to entry hazards / LO / other residual damage, which makes it impossible to stall with Toxic, Life Orb recoil, etc. It's really frail too, but that doesn't matter if you use it right. The basic idea is to switch it in whenever it gets the chance, hit something hard, and then switch out. It's extremely difficult to counter, even in UU which has Chansey / Snorlax, etc, and to beat it, you usually need to play around it. It can be easily revenged or pursuited, but that doesn't mean it won't do massive damage in the process. I think it needs to go, because the only way you can deal with Alakazam unscathed is to be Psychic

Sableye

Priority Taunt + Will-O-Wisp + + Calm Mind Recover lets Sableye fuck over a lot of things. Aside from Fire-types (Stealth Rock weak, keep in mind), Sableye walks over a good deal of RU. This would be true for all tiers, except that there's alot more powerful Pokemon in the higher tiers, and less opportunities to switch in, etc. Also, there's less Flash Fire users to absorb Will-O-Wisp. RU has Houndoom and Entei, but Entei is 2hko'ed by Foul Play. I think it'd be better for RU if it went.

Edit: Shit I couldve sworn Houndoom was RU, my bad...

 

[steviestar]

Houndoom is UU, which is unfortunate because he is an amazing Sableye counter.

Down here the only flash fire users are Rapidash, Heatmor, Flareon, and if you're really desperate, Lampent.

 

[Saijo]

There we go...

The only Pokemon that in my opinion is really striking the metagame is Alakazam with Magic Guard. As the user above, Final Fantasy proved, Alakazam can do an absurd amount of damage in several tier of Pokémon. In addition, 2HKO on Munchlax that is one of the top Special Walls of the Tier.

Sableye I do not think so complicated to handle, becouse Moltres is increasingly popular in the metagame and that can break him down with relative ease.

Well that's it, thanks for reading this post in the midst of so many others. Have a nice day.

 

[Vratix]

I don't see why so many people seem to think that the answer to Alakazam needs to be a special wall. There are a few notable dark-types in the tier, namely Sharpedo and Honckrow, who can outpace or outprioritize and OHKO Alakazam. Additionally, scarf pursuit users get the trap KO etc.
Don't confuse this with me saying Alakazam is not broken, it probably is too much forthe tier to handle. I have, however always considered this a non-issue. Why? Because at the next release of usage statistics Alakazam will almost certainly be banned simply through moving up to a higher tier. I strongly disapprove of this mid-month banning decision. If the suspects are indeed broken they will still be broken when the round is over.
Let the dust settle before you start looking for poop on the ground.

As far as Sableye goes, it isn't broken. It's definitely annoying but I personally think people who support banning it moreso disapprove of what Sableye represents: a shift in the metagame trend for RU team building. Do you think anyone will freak out if Gastrodon drops out of OU because Thundurus (it's reason for being there) is gone? If the reason for using Scarf-Primeape is gone why should that matter to us? "Oh no! Now I can't use the exact same team I used last round and win as often as I did then!". Get over it, Sableye shuts down some physical attackers, whoop de doo.

TL;DR
Zam should probably go, but why the rush?
Sableye is annoying, kill it and move on with your battle. It's not that bad and it's certainly not broken.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Do you think anyone will freak out if Gastrodon drops out of OU because Thundurus (it's reason for being there) is gone?

I don't play RU, but I just wanted to clarify that Gastrodon has been used quite frequently since Thundurus and Excadrill left. It is a fantastic counter to Rotom-W and Politoed without HP Grass (which is quite honestly the only reason they run that, along with countering Swampert and Quagsire to a lesser extent). My point? Don't worry about Gastrodon slipping down; wait until the next OU statistics come out and we'll see what happens, but I don't see Gastrodon slipping all the way to RU any time soon.

edit: further proving my point VVV

 

[Scoopapa]

Keep in mind it would have to be UU first before it can be RU, as a mon can only drop one tier per changeup. That's because a higher tier pokemon obviously has 0 usage in a lower tier and so usage can't tell you where you should be putting it.

 

[VuvuzelaBzz]

I don't see why so many people seem to think that the answer to Alakazam needs to be a special wall. There are a few notable dark-types in the tier, namely Sharpedo and Honckrow, who can outpace or outprioritize and OHKO Alakazam. Additionally, scarf pursuit users get the trap KO etc.
Don't confuse this with me saying Alakazam is not broken, it probably is too much forthe tier to handle. I have, however always considered this a non-issue. Why? Because at the next release of usage statistics Alakazam will almost certainly be banned simply through moving up to a higher tier. I strongly disapprove of this mid-month banning decision. If the suspects are indeed broken they will still be broken when the round is over.
Let the dust settle before you start looking for poop on the ground.

As far as Sableye goes, it isn't broken. It's definitely annoying but I personally think people who support banning it moreso disapprove of what Sableye represents: a shift in the metagame trend for RU team building. Do you think anyone will freak out if Gastrodon drops out of OU because Thundurus (it's reason for being there) is gone? If the reason for using Scarf-Primeape is gone why should that matter to us? "Oh no! Now I can't use the exact same team I used last round and win as often as I did then!". Get over it, Sableye shuts down some physical attackers, whoop de doo.

TL;DR
Zam should probably go, but why the rush?
Sableye is annoying, kill it and move on with your battle. It's not that bad and it's certainly not broken.

Firstly, waiting for the tier-change to implement a ban is truly pointless, because it's based on the assumption that Zam will rise to UU(which it may not). You say that if it's broken now it will be broken when the time for the tier change comes. So what? If it's broken now ban it now. There is no reason to postpone bans because of the fact that a new release improved something's effectiveness. Removing something that makes the metagame worse is the best way of making it better. Leaving it is just ignoring the problem. I personally am not convinced that zam is broken, however, when it comes to the general topic of mid-tier-change bans, I'm all for them.

As for Sableye, your guess as to why people think it's broken is false. I had never played RU before Mischievous Heart Sableye was released, yet I think it's broken. This is obviously not because I couldn't fathom the change to my teambuilding, as I had no teambuilding process for RU prior to the Sableye metagame. Hell, I'm not even playing the same playstyle I'm used to in RU(stall), as I feel that in the current metagame offense is more beneficial. Secondly, you didn't actually post an argument as to why Sableye isn't broken. You merely told anyone complaining about Sableye to stop doing so because you don't think it's broken.

 

[Vratix]

concerning:

I don't play RU, but I just wanted to clarify that Gastrodon has been used quite frequently since Thundurus and Excadrill left. It is a fantastic counter to Rotom-W and Politoed without HP Grass (which is quite honestly the only reason they run that, along with countering Swampert and Quagsire to a lesser extent). My point? Don't worry about Gastrodon slipping down; wait until the next OU statistics come out and we'll see what happens, but I don't see Gastrodon slipping all the way to RU any time soon.

edit: further proving my point VVV

&

Keep in mind it would have to be UU first before it can be RU, as a mon can only drop one tier per changeup. That's because a higher tier pokemon obviously has 0 usage in a lower tier and so usage can't tell you where you should be putting it.

Yes, you are both correct. However, that wasn't the point I was trying to convey. I was simply using Gastrodon as a comparison to Primeape because Gastrodon's usage certainly seems to have dropped since Thundurus left just as the advent of Sableye and the passing of Yanmega has decreased the use of Primeape. Is it useless? Of course not. Is it as useful as it was? Probably not. Within minutes of that post I saw a scarf-Primeape on the ladder, so obviously, at least one person still finds it useful.



concerning:

Firstly, waiting for the tier-change to implement a ban is truly pointless, because it's based on the assumption that Zam will rise to UU(which it may not). You say that if it's broken now it will be broken when the time for the tier change comes. So what? If it's broken now ban it now. There is no reason to postpone bans because of the fact that a new release improved something's effectiveness. Removing something that makes the metagame worse is the best way of making it better. Leaving it is just ignoring the problem. I personally am not convinced that zam is broken, however, when it comes to the general topic of mid-tier-change bans, I'm all for them.

As for Sableye, your guess as to why people think it's broken is false. I had never played RU before Mischievous Heart Sableye was released, yet I think it's broken. This is obviously not because I couldn't fathom the change to my teambuilding, as I had no teambuilding process for RU prior to the Sableye metagame. Hell, I'm not even playing the same playstyle I'm used to in RU(stall), as I feel that in the current metagame offense is more beneficial. Secondly, you didn't actually post an argument as to why Sableye isn't broken. You merely told anyone complaining about Sableye to stop doing so because you don't think it's broken.

As to the mid-round bans, that is my opinion. You can certainly have a different opinion about whether or not you like mid-round bans.

However, if you have only been playing the tier since Spooky Manor was released that is still shy of a full month in a tier that has existed for four months. Does that mean you don't get it: no. It means, that you weren't here to design your team around Yanmega or Venomoth and that you don't see why so many people feel that certain roles like that of Munchlax and Primeape are absolutely necessary for any RU team.


On another note, iirc you don't need to prove a pokemon isn't broken to not ban it; you need to prove it is to ban it. There have been several discussion other people brought up (including me) both here and in other threads of the RU board about Sableye. I didn't want to be redundant but since you need it posted again I will recap them for you.
Sableye has 50/75/65 defenses. Making it the next best thing to Registeel. Oh, wait, Pidgeot has 83/75/70 defenses, Featherdance AND Roost? We should ban pidgeot for being gamebreaking defensively. [note: sarcasm]

Sableye has terrible defenses.

Here is a list of physical attackers (with calculations provided) that can 2HKO sableye in spite of a burn that you are likely to come across: Aggron, Electivire, Honchkrow, Sharpedo, Krookodile, Crawdaunt, Durant and Kabutops. Note, if you want to see the calcs, they already exist within the RU category. I made none of these up and found them all in less than two minutes of looking.

I also would like you to take a note: There are currently 4 useable Pokemon with Flash Fire and 9 with Guts available in this tier (Flareon being the only one with access to both). Additionally, there are 7 pokemon with Water Veil and 1 with Magic Bounce (yeah, Natu sees playtime). That gives you 20 pokemon who are able to safely switch in against Sableye and not worry about the priority will-o-wisp. Not counting Fire Types. (And if you really wanted to you could try for some of those Leaf Guard users too)

Plus other fire-types without Flash Fire e.g. the shining example Entei.

There are (roughly) 25 pokemon you can viably use with access to Heal Bell. There are 8 pokemon with access to Aromatherapy. 1 is cherrim though so let's say there are 7. None of them overlap, giving you more that 30 Clerics.

Lum berry exists. Rawst berry exists. Rest+Sleep Talk exists.

The only reason people claim it is broken is because of the priority will-o-wisp.
A move with 75% accuracy.

Not to mention the biggest factor to be unmentioned Special Attackers.
Sableye has a SDef cap of 251. That is okay but certainly less than impressive and won't be standing up to very much on the special side.

tl;dr Sableye is annoying. It is hardly game breaking.