Metagame RU Stage 7: Home (Zarude ban, see post #4)

[EviGaro]

Hlelo,

The first drops from Home have happened - you can find all of them here - and with that comes the post-Home thread for RU! Here are the relevant ones for this tier so far:

Hide

Avalugg-Hisui moved from OU to RU
Delphox moved from OU to RU
Houndstone moved from OU to RU
Zarude moved from OU to RU
Hoopa moved from OU to NU
Mesprit moved from OU to NU
Raichu-Alola moved from OU to NU
Tornadus moved from OU to NU
Wyrdeer moved from OU to NU
Articuno moved from OU to PU
Calyrex moved from OU to PU
Carbink moved from OU to PU
Dugtrio-Alola moved from OU to PU
Persian-Alola moved from OU to PU
Tauros moved from OU to PU"

Alongside this, we also have a fairly big normal shift, found here:

Hide

Gardevoir moved from RU to UU
Indeedee moved from NUBL to UU
Brambleghast moved from UU to RU
Floatzel moved from UU to RU
Inteleon moved from UU to RU
Kilowattrel moved from UU to RU
Orthworm moved from UU to RU
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua moved from UU to RU

A few things on those first:

- The Gardevoir rise is obviously massive. RU is here losing not just its most spammable scarfer with an amazing ability, its also losing one of its premier wallbreakers with the specs set. Other fairies have started to pick up in a more offensive fashion in Florges and Sylveon, but they can't adequately replace everything Gardevoir could do.
- With Pelipper in OU, the rain drops are back! Kilowattrel was a top tier mon, same for Tauros-Aqua, and it's difficult to not see them being able to just take back their slot. Inteleon is extremely promising as well, as its speed tier goes above Salazzle and our water resists are quite shaky as is.
- We got a new steel type, and two more spikers, yay. Brambleghast seems a bit better offensively than Toedscruel is, despite its lack of an effective ghost type, though a certain drop from Home is gonna give it a lot of issues....

As for the Home drops:
- Delphox and Zarude obviously stand out at first, and could very well be monitored early on. Both got an immediate power boost in Nasty Plot and Swords Dance respectively, paired with incredible coverage with stabs + fighting moves and amazing speed tiers. Both of them are also not reliant on setup either, Zarude is well known for its choice sets here or simply an amazing pivot mon. Delphox can also most likely pull off a Flame Charge set to beat Scarfers late, or wishtect, or future sight bulkier because honestly that mon gets everything for no reason.
- Don't sleep on mons that dropped past RU! Tornadus is back, and is always a very solid / sometimes broken mon in RU. Its addition boosts Rain at a perfect time, and it can viably run physical or special sets, with tera being an incredible bonus for the physical set to not die on rocks all the time. Mesprit has a lot of potential I feel, amazing movepool as usual whether its offensive or more support. A few examples: effective rain setter with healing wish, stealth rock pivot, effective specs or scarf, NP and CM. Also, keep an eye on Mystical Power, its added move from Legends. 70BP Psychic is somewhat weak, but 100% boost to SpA is not. Three hits in a row can effectively deal upwards of 80 to max SpD Copperajah with Specs, setup + that is really damaging to Blissey especially since it also has access to Draining Kiss.
- Not sure I see much in Houndstone despite being a very good boy, but fluffy is very nice, can check Tauros-Aqua pretty well. It also has trick which is fairly common on defensive mons nowadays to cripple mons, Wisp and Dbond are fun. Its not useless offensively either? Idk.
- Hoopa is very slow, but no Pursuit is potentially big for it and it kept knock off to cripple, which is really nice. No Teleport though, makes no sense on this, and no Draining Kiss, which limits its tera a bit compared to other strong ghosts or psychics. Regular Tauros might actually do stuff here, but its speed tier got very crowded and it simply does not have the utility Aqua has overall, or even Blaze. Articuno lost Defog and Heal Bell, which makes me very skeptical of any niche, especially with halved recovery, but its very fat and can... setup rain?
- Alola mons! Raichu faces the crowded speed tier as well, but its faster than Delphox with a NP option, and with that and Pincurchin + Thorns, you're almost getting a decent terrain team, since grounds have never really liked switching into Raichu. Persian lost Knock and toxic, which is terrible, but its still fast as heck and can be an annoying pivot. Tera with NP? Maybe. Dugtrio has a potential niche here as well, its a very fast ground AND steel that can be choiced, SD with those stabs is no joke as Excadrill taught us many times, can also be a decent lead with steel beam. Dugtrio never really got going this gen despite being surprisingly good in NU, but maybe the Fabio form can pull it off.

I'm not gonna comment on Wyrdeer - top tier randbats glue - or Avalugg-Hisui or Calyrex because ROFL, but this thread is for you if you think I'm wrong on that.

 

[Rarelyme]

link to the tier list

https://tiermaker.com/create/july-shifts--15902816

I made this very quickly if you want to share your opinions on the drops feel free to drop your own tier lists !

So to me the meta defining mons among the drops are Zarude, Tornadus and Brambleghast. Zarude because SD sets will be extremely strong especially when it also has a way to boost its speed with a STAB move and good coverage to hit pretty much the entirety of the tier. Tornadus puts rain on the table on its own thanks to Rain Dance + Prankster and has a way to abuse it in Hurricane. It can now also boost its Sp. Attack with Nasty Plot and enjoy Bleakwind Storm as a more reliable STAB than Hurricane. Brambleghast really brings solutions to many mons we got from these shifts like Tauros, Floatzel (to an extent), Kilowattrel or Tornadus. Its ability allows it to wall the laters and its typing to check the formers. It can spin and set hazards up as well which will always be very valuable.

All the other mons feel less centralizing as these three to me for now even if I'm sure that the 3 waters will make waves and make Vaporeon high tier eventually hehe. I don't see a world where Kilowattrel isn't useful in this tier as most of our reliable Electric resists are weak to Flying and I haven't tested Delphox yet but many people seem excited about it so I put it up there.

 

[Pabloaram]

After playing a bit i think that is my first tierlist.

Orthworm seems amazing as a new Steel-type that love swithing in Ground- types. ID+BP with tera ghost lets you set up on the grounds in the tier.

Zarude was amazing and still is. Probably too good with SD but A+/S ngl

Don't think manual rain gonna be as good but Torn, Kilo and PaurosWater look amazing rn.

Nastly Plot Delphox is good but still has competition in Salazzle as a NP Fire-type

Maybe Pircunchi/AloRaichu/IronThorns could work as Electric Terrain HO

The rest are pretty trash

 

[EviGaro]

Hello so to not a lot of surprise Council voted on Zarude this weekend, here's the results:

ban: Beraldo, eifo, EviGaro, Feliburn, Floss, TheFranklin, yourwelcomethanku
no ban: GoldCat, Mac3

Thus following a 7-2 vote, Zarude is now banned from SV RU! Tagging Kris and Marty to implement on ladder, thank you both.

Zarude very obviously got to a strong start in our first post home metagame, leveraging its very solid bulk and strong attacking stats to become a very stifling presence in the tier. Swords Dance was, as expected, nearly impossible to adequately cover, especially when backed with multiple tera options, and while at first glance it seems just slow enough to be revenged, it had access to a fairly strong Trailblaze because, why not. Other mons were talked about a bit, but nothing really stands out yet the way Zarude did. We obviously will be looking at ssnls and what people say, but keep in mind that with a completely new metagame in a month it's unlikely that more... controversial tiering actions will happen for the time being.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Hi! While I haven't played too much with the new drops, there was one piece of tech that I wanted to shot out:

Delphox (F) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast

this one takes inspiration from the Hoopa-U set in OU with the same ability. You can pretty much always lead with it and click the overheat button to trigger Eject Pack, switch out AND take your opponent's item. It can work as a neat mixup when your opponent expects a Trick scarf set, while taking the item of the switch in (most likely lefties or boots given the mons that like to switch into Delphox). Normal Hoopa could also run something similar but it doesn't have a move that lowers its own stats. Maybe a gimmicky Room Service Trick Room strat could work? idk.

EDIT: apparently the interaction is not correct in the cartridge ;-; The concept can still work when switching in again, just not in an immediate manner. Sorry for the misinformed post

 

[woodgoldtwo]

Hi! While I haven't played too much with the new drops, there was one piece of tech that I wanted to shot out:
View attachment 531309

Delphox (F) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast

this one takes inspiration from the Hoopa-U set in OU with the same ability. You can pretty much always lead with it and click the overheat button to trigger Eject Pack, switch out AND take your opponent's item. It can work as a neat mixup when your opponent expects a Trick scarf set, while taking the item of the switch in (most likely lefties or boots given the mons that like to switch into Delphox). Normal Hoopa could also run something similar but it doesn't have a move that lowers its own stats. Maybe a gimmicky Room Service Trick Room strat could work? idk.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664229504456495105

 

[Fabi_ODST]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664229504456495105

Ahh, I see. I'll keep the post up since you can still steal an item later on when you switch in again, but I'll add the info above. Thanks for the correction

 

[Sneakyplanner]

I think this thing could easily become the most hated mon in the tier. I played a lot of UU when it was common there, and it manages to be both frustrating to play with and frustrating to play against. The level 1 set of power whip, spikes, spin, strength sap is a utility queen, but unfortunately it does nothing to other brambleghasts. This leads to endless brambleghast wars where nobody wants to switch but you can't even touch them. The move that breaks these stalemates is shadow ball, which does no damage to anything not named brambleghast. Please don't use this because the more brambleghast mirrors you end up in, the sadder you will be.

 

[Pabloaram]

I think this thing could easily become the most hated mon in the tier. I played a lot of UU when it was common there, and it manages to be both frustrating to play with and frustrating to play against. The level 1 set of power whip, spikes, spin, strength sap is a utility queen, but unfortunately it does nothing to other brambleghasts. This leads to endless brambleghast wars where nobody wants to switch but you can't even touch them. The move that breaks these stalemates is shadow ball, which does no damage to anything not named brambleghast. Please don't use this because the more brambleghast mirrors you end up in, the sadder you will be.

-6 wars are funny imo.

 

[Beebos]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664229504456495105

Bro literally what is the point of this ability

 

[Sneakyplanner]

Gardevoir left me and now my life is in shambles.

Before July, Gardevoir was the scarfer you went to when you needed pure damage. It didn't have u-turn or outspeed a +1 oricorio, but it would click moonblast and do a lot of damage. But fortunately I think some of the new drops could be a good replacement for it.

the new best psychic type in the tier, delphox has a lower SpA than gardevoir but it has a speed tier higher than all the other scarfers and it can even beat a cloyster at +2 speed until everyone reading this starts running jolly cloysters. It can run an almost identical moveset to gardevoir too; fire move, psychic move, fairy move, trick. The rocks weakness may seem like a big weakness at first, but we've got some really solid hazard removal, and after switching into rocks a few times you get to do this: 252+ SpA Blaze Tera Fire Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 173-204 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. I have missed enough fire blasts to never use that move again, but you can run it if you like big numbers 85% of the time. Pair delphox with brambleghast and you can keep hazards off while providing spikes of your own to bring things into range for a delphox cleanup.

Inteleon may seem like a waste as a scarfer with that naturally high speed, but it has gardevoir's special attack stat and an almost usable movepool. Somewhat sadly, timid Inteleon ties with +2 adamant revavroom. But you can run modest Inteleon to get even more damage while not really missing out on too much. The thing holding Inteleon back in my opinion is its total lack of coverage. You might as well run tera blast even if you have no intention of ever terastallizing because it's either that or dark pulse in slot 4. And due to needing tera blast for any usable coverage on water types, you can't run tera water to clean up a sightly chipped team with no water resist. Like delphox it makes a good teammate with brambleghast to wear down tauros and vbaporeon through spikes.

Give me back my monkey

And now for a maybe hot take, I do not like water tauros as a scarfer, I think fire tauros just does it better. If you want to use water bull for speed control you use choice band with aqua jet. fire tauros just has better offensive coverage as a scarfer since it beats brambleghast while all our good fire resists also resist water.

 

[Tyrone.Purpl3]

Honestly Brambleghast is the most fun thing to use in the tier I have it on a good amount of my teams and they're so good to pivot into any Hurricane/Wind move user

 

[Feliburn]

I wanna talk about 2 mons specifically, but I might get into some of the newer additions later in the post.

Delphox in my eyes feels incredibly strong. Nasty Plot and the combination of fire move, psychic move (psyshock specifically), grass coverage, fairy coverage, the newly added Focus Blast, and obviously Tera Blast with whatever tera type you want to run. I listed like a million options just now that not a lot of people are using, I just wanted to mention the possibilities you can have with it, but the core of my issue is Nasty Plot, Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Psyshock. Whenever I've tried to build a team, I struggle to find a slot that can handle this moveset. Umbreon & Vaporeon have been my safest options, but both of them get owned by a +2 Delphox, as they are both unable to OHKO it back, so it always feels kind of shaky. Not to mention it has coverage for both on paper, but again, idk exactly what the common Delphox last move is.

A lot of people have told me they find Delphox not that hard to handle, and that's probably true because it's not really that bulky, and our offensive options are all amazing at hitting it, it just feels like a demon to handle defensively. Choice Scarf sets are super fun, as they make it our fastest scarfer (unless u count Salazzle, but ROFL I haven't seen that set in YEARS).

Aqua Tauros is back, and this time we don't have a Slowbro that can save us. The most popular set has been Choice Band, and for a good reason as CB Water STAB moves just destroy everything. CB Close Combat is just as free to spam as well, and our solid resists are so few. Altaria could be considered a decent answer, but since Slowbro is no longer in the tier, Stone Edge has become the coverage move of option to handle Altaria. And finally, Aqua Jet as a tool to revenge kill. The Pokémon just feels super solid, and it's the other mon I see people talk about the most in terms of having issues handling it.

Now, getting a bit more into the other drops I think are popular.

Kilo is back and it's doing the same thing it did the last time it was RU: be annoying. It returns to take the spot as our best offensive pivot, and it works amazing as a check to Aqua Tauros, the Oricorio, the newly added Tornadus, etc. It just hits hard, and volts/uturns out. It's no wonder it manages to place itself as one of the better mons of the tier. The speed, ability and coverage is just too good to pass on.

Our newest grass spinner is here! I've seen this mon way too much lately. I'm not sure if it's great or bad yet, but spikes, spin and sap offer a lot of utility. The issue becomes not being abusable by other mons because ur either locked to power whip or shadow ball as ur offensive options, and both have massive drawbacks in this meta. I've seen ppl talk about night shade but ROFL same thing. Defensively it's really solid I feel, and more invested sets are checks to Aqua Tauros so that's pretty cool, but let's not forget it has 55/70/70 defenses. The one funny thing is how a simple grass type that's used everywhere makes using Tornadus such an awful experience.

Speaking of Torn, I have yet to see this mon pop off. I've seen talks about how rain can be OP with it, but not much has been showcased. And I already mentioned how annoying it is to run Bleakwind Storm + Heat Wave Tornadus and run into a Brambleghast making fun of you cause u literally can't hit it. And since bramble is everywhere, I've seen torn do so little in actual games so idk where this mon stands.

I still think this mon is heavily unexplored (I'll be building teams again and I'll try to use it). It can work as a rocker or spiker, and it can run coil or iron defense sets pretty comfortably, as it gets Body Press to complement its super high Defense stat. Immunity to ground is so big as a steel, because you suddenly become a decent answer to Krookodile, one of our most popular mons, and you threaten Toedscruel if it tries to spin your hazards. You also beat Mudsdale 1v1 if it's lacking Body Press, and even then you can just boost to max as Mudsdale has to get hit to raise its defense. Obviously the biggest con this mon has is its awful sp def stat, but I think if people can support that aspect of Orthworm, you can come up with some pretty cool cores.

That's all I had to say. My biggest question here is: what mons do you think have an unhealthy presence right now? Delphox and Tauros are the ones I think deserve the most discussion, but I'd also love to see what the people have to say about the tier as a whole.

 

[Ampha]

Ok, so gonna write about my biggest concern here, but I think Delphox in its core is definitely busted, the pool of checks to this thing is REALLY small and I do think it's VERY unhealthy for the metagame, it's been a week but the fact that we are already struggling to deal with it defensively worries me, since it can easily adapt to other tera types (tera water, to setup on vap and OHKO krook, fairy as a "mini gardevoir", ground to deal with itself, fire and psychic to omega boost stabs, dark for aiai, etc), plus there's even possibilities for it to dip deeper into its movepool for bulky sets
Id be glad if it got banned asap if being honest

also

I think the addition of Paquaros is neat, but imo, Paublazeros has been more consistent itself from the tests i've done since grass types have been more and more common itself and this is easier to check itself, altho its very good as well, BU sets have also been popping of and doing well with tera steel so

Decent as a scarfer, ok as HDB w knock, my main problem with it is a bit slow w/o scarf and even with scarf it still leaves to be desired due to its awful physical defense(it dies to salazzle's knock lol) and Krook being the best mon in the tier doesnt help it either, ok mon in personal opinion

Nice mon itself imo, either LO or Specs with Surf, Ice beam, Uturn and Air Slash/ Dark Pulse/ Tera blast and a nice speed tier, feels like a upgrade to special Samurott and has potential for some [redacted] techs , overall a decent addition to current metagame and prob gonna try building with it sometime

Feel like this mon has been underexplored, altho a bit annoying to build around, rocks pivot, bulky Heal wish sets, and NP Drain kiss all sound like potential good options, and tera electric/fairy also seem like neat options on this, Mystical Power also sounds like a insanely good combo with NP sets to power through checks like Copperajah with Specs possibly

x

Feel like their interaction is funny since you cant hit it with wind moves, altho one thing I wanna tryout is possibly Tera fire with Tera blast to lure that in or just plain using Uturn/dark pulse/ the 2 wind moves/, overall I think tornadus is p much a 50/50 MU mon, since it can REALLY shine on Bramble less MUs (Kilo's not rly reliable check due to the speed drop nature of bleakwind)
On other side, I think the most optimal set for Bramble is Spikes(or spin) /strenght sap/ Whip/ Night shade due to the nature of Shadow ball being deadweight vs 3/4 of the tier, I think its def a incredible addition to the tier tho, since its a decent side grade to Tsareena/Toeds in terms of power and utility itself, apart from that, rest of mons have been talked about by Feli or other ppl

Also give us Gardevoir back @UU

 

[Pabloaram]

Delphox in my eyes feels incredibly strong. Nasty Plot and the combination of fire move, psychic move (psyshock specifically), grass coverage, fairy coverage, the newly added Focus Blast, and obviously Tera Blast with whatever tera type you want to run. I listed like a million options just now that not a lot of people are using, I just wanted to mention the possibilities you can have with it, but the core of my issue is Nasty Plot, Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Psyshock. Whenever I've tried to build a team, I struggle to find a slot that can handle this moveset. Umbreon & Vaporeon have been my safest options, but both of them get owned by a +2 Delphox, as they are both unable to OHKO it back, so it always feels kind of shaky. Not to mention it has coverage for both on paper, but again, idk exactly what the common Delphox last move is.

A lot of people have told me they find Delphox not that hard to handle, and that's probably true because it's not really that bulky, and our offensive options are all amazing at hitting it, it just feels like a demon to handle defensively. Choice Scarf sets are super fun, as they make it our fastest scarfer (unless u count Salazzle, but ROFL I haven't seen that set in YEARS).

Abusing this same set. Having Flame Charge as a option to fix his speed and blast trought offense. Fire + Psychic coverage is nasty to switch into and his "only" downside aka his speed can be patched by Flame Charge.
Example set:

Delphox @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Flame Charge

Using defensive tera to take a hit and put himself on Blaze range is also nasty..

 

[C0nfiden1 0yster]

My friend feliburn is a bit shy so i have decided to make him feel better by writing this lovely post

I had no intention to write literally anything but i have decided this post will be about tornadus and why its so cool and amazing and awesome


Tornadus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ground
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind / Grass Knot

So when this pokemon first dropped into the tier, this was the initial set i thought would be good. In theory, fire-flying coverage from a strong special attacker seemed rly broken and nothing rly deals with that... except for dumbass brableghast. And ultimately bramble has become... common? ig?, im still skeptical but the fact that bramble hard walls this set made me look for different options. Though I did want to point out how useful tailwind is on more offensive builds and how useful grass knot is when looking for a breaker. The prankster tailwind is really difficult to play around, not to mention the opponent isnt expecting it most of the time either. It makes so many endgames so brainless. Grass Knot is mostly a niche option for mudsdale, especially since sdef muds w/ edge is common with kilowattrel's addition to the tier. The Tera Ground is mostly to block electric attacks from my friends rotom-mow and kilowattrel. Also blocks t-wave from keys.


Tornadus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ground
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast

This is another NP set that leads into its breaking abilities. Notably, it includes Sludge Bomb as a method to overcome the brambleghast issue and Tera Blast Ground because Flying-Ground coverage is similarly silly to Flying Fire. This is quite bad into Bronzong and ultimately i think you could probably run heat wave over Tera Blast, but otherwise i think this is a strong idea.


Tornadus
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Steel / Whatever
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Acrobatics
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This was a set from SS that Mac3 used on a team or two i think. I have no clue if he actually brought it to a tour game tho. This set is very similar to the restalk grim set but uses a stronger and better STAB. This requires a ton of support and is definitely limited and mu fish, but i am surprised no one has brought it up or used it. I didn't find it in the Next Best Thing thread either which leads me to believe this set is a bit unknown which is a shame.


Tornadus @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- U-turn

Tornadus rain support is an idea ig. Honestly rain sounds giga broken and this is a decent abuser/ set. Losing weather ball is such an L. I wonder if it could work on a hail team with maybe heat wave and NP over taunt and u-turn as hail is still legit and broken (and obv snowscape over rain dance).

I think these are the best Torn sets in the metagame rn and I hope more experimentation is done with this pokemon. In paper this pokemon is still broken as hell and i think with time we will understand that. its important to pay attention to the next couple weeks of ssnl as that will dictate the potential next tiering steps for this tier. thanks for reading

 

[Sneakyplanner]

Tornadus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ground
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast

This is another NP set that leads into its breaking abilities. Notably, it includes Sludge Bomb as a method to overcome the brambleghast issue and Tera Blast Ground because Flying-Ground coverage is similarly silly to Flying Fire. This is quite bad into Bronzong and ultimately i think you could probably run heat wave over Tera Blast, but otherwise i think this is a strong idea.

IMO the best NP Tornadus set is bleakwind, dark pulse and heat wave. Why settle for neutral damage on Brambleghast when you can get super effective, and the super effective coverage on fairies rarely matters in my experience. And with heat wave > tera blast ground, being walled by naclstack sucks but it's better than being walled by an actually relevant pokemon like Bronzong or Orthworm (however relevant Orthworm is).
The rough thing about using Torn is that it's two best moves have 90 or less accuracy, and while bleakwind is a really nice upgrade.over hurricane it still has stone edge accuracy. This is why I like having tera poison or tera dark (depending on what coverage move you are using) so in a pinch you can get a stab, 100 accuracy move.

 

[Feliburn]

I was also gonna talk about Tornadus in my post.


I agree with Sneaky that Dark Pulse coverage has been really epic as of late. Being able to get a lot of neutral hits on the tier from an already high 125 special attack stat is really cool. I've also been messing with a semi rain core my friend aoemica passed me with 3 attacks + Rain Dance paired with CB Barraskewda. Tornadus still fills in the slot of a strong special attacker, and Dark Pulse coverage on it becomes really good to hit Brambleghast for Barraskewda, as every Bramble player just assumes ur walled by them. Honestly, Tornadus has felt like such a cool addition to the tier and people are coming up with more sets that just make the mon more fun to use.


A mon I've been using since the drops. Dragalge feels like such a strong glue on most teams. It's a decent check to both Tauros, Kilowattrel, all our new grass types, and not much can take Draco Meteor from them besides Bronzong and Copperajah. I've seen less and less Klefki while using it, so I'm not sure if it has been my luck, or if Klefki has died down in usage overall, tho I still think it's great in the tier. What I've been running on Drag is a more physically defensive set to better check Aqua Tauros, with Dragon Tail for phazing and one of Toxic or Toxic Spikes. It just feels really solid at the moment.


Idk if it has been just me but Sylveon feels like our best Fairy Type right now. I've faced both Florges and Sylveon, and I struggle more vs the latter when facing set up sets. I've run into CM sets with so many different teras, and they all feel viable cause they muscle past their conventional checks. It might also be that I've been neglecting Revavroom as of late, as I've been experimenting more with Orthworm, but I'm pretty sure I'd still get bopped by surprise Tera Ground sets, similar to what Florges was using at the end of the previous meta.


Another mon that has felt so good right now. Sub NP sets with Tera Fairy Draining Kiss have gotten me so many sweeps, as the HP recovery from Draining Kiss just makes Mismagius randomly last forever in games. I feel like the set works better vs teams on the bulkier side, but faster teams don't really appreciate switching into neutral Shadow Ball either. I have yet to try out Hoopa in this meta, but I'm not sure if it'd be able to get away with a similar set due to the vast difference in speed.

These are just random thoughts I had while laddering today, but it's cool to feel like there's a lot of diverse offensive options right now.

Delphox still feels like a demon to me every game I play, but I'm not sure if it's just the way I've been building that makes it feel that way.

 

[btboy]

My biggest question here is: what mons do you think have an unhealthy presence right now? Delphox and Tauros are the ones I think deserve the most discussion, but I'd also love to see what the people have to say about the tier as a whole.

I was talking about this with TheFranklin a few days ago; Tauros-Aqua is very strong, but I think its ‘presence’ is less about the mon itself and more about the imposition of Fighting-types in general.

We have several good fighters at the moment, and most of them can run multiple sets effectively. You can run a Brambleghast for water Tauros, and then run into a fire Tauros and have a miserable time. You can run Qwilfish, and then load into sub Bulk Up water Tauros and have to click X. Something like Altaria theoretically covers both, but it’s a fairly passive mon that’s overpressured as is, and you can always eat a banded Stone Edge on the switch. Bulky Fairy-types similarly feel like a momentum sink. You can use Tera Fairy or Tera Ghost Vaporeon, but then you’ve burned Tera and most Tauros teams will be well-equipped to counter-pressure it.

There’s also still Passimian, Heracross, and Primeape. Heracross has multiple sets it can run; Passimian is very versatile and, in my opinion, underutilized; and Primeape can be a matchup nightmare. Primeape especially has a chance to make a resurgence if people start building fatter structures in response to the power creep.

I don’t think any one of these mons is broken, but collectively they feel very overwhelming in the builder. We’re still in the infancy of the new meta post-shifts, but as right now it feels very difficult to account for all the Fighting-type threats without dedicating multiple slots to covering them all.

 

[Sneakyplanner]

Another mon that has felt so good right now. Sub NP sets with Tera Fairy Draining Kiss have gotten me so many sweeps, as the HP recovery from Draining Kiss just makes Mismagius randomly last forever in games. I feel like the set works better vs teams on the bulkier side, but faster teams don't really appreciate switching into neutral Shadow Ball either. I have yet to try out Hoopa in this meta, but I'm not sure if it'd be able to get away with a similar set due to the vast difference in speed.

Ever since grafaiai dropped I haven't been too high on shadow ball + draining kiss being your only attacks, since it feels impossible to wear grafaiai down due to its ability to just choose not to take damage. I don't know how grafaiai usage is doing this month though so if it's on the decline then sub NP missy seems like a really good set. In general I'm not sure how the new tier shifts have worked out for Missy; it's really good vs delphox and water bull and that helps it, but tornadus, kilowattrel and inteleon also fell and they are strong competition for fast special attackers that also bully it pretty hard in battle. I agree that sub np is probably better than the old taunt np set since if it goes on the offensive and gets an np or sub up then I think it beats all of them 1v1 at full health but it's not as reliable of a revenge killer as it used to be.

Idk if it has been just me but Sylveon feels like our best Fairy Type right now. I've faced both Florges and Sylveon, and I struggle more vs the latter when facing set up sets. I've run into CM sets with so many different teras, and they all feel viable cause they muscle past their conventional checks. It might also be that I've been neglecting Revavroom as of late, as I've been experimenting more with Orthworm, but I'm pretty sure I'd still get bopped by surprise Tera Ground sets, similar to what Florges was using at the end of the previous meta.

If it weren't for the fact that the meta will be unrecognizable on August 2nd, I feel like we could spend years going back and forth on whether florges was better than sylveon and vice versa. It might just be because I run a lot of copperajah, which just owns every sylveon, but I personally feel like if you are leaning hard into calm mind fairy as a win condition and teraing it frequently then florges is still better, sylveon only being able to fit one attack while florges can use both moon blast and tera blast ground/water at the same time. Sylveon is better on teams that can really use the wish support where calm mind is a plan b or a way to scale alongside special boosters. I have been seeing a lot of yawn sylveon on ladder lately and it feels more annoying than calm mind

 

[eifo]

Already wrote a bit about Dephox and Mesprit on Discord but I might as well chime in here as well:)

Mesprit seems solid on paper but has been a bit disappointing in practice.

Scarf sets are alright but not incredible. Trick, HW, and U-turn are all great moves to have on your scarfer, as Trick can cripple walls and fat set up mons, while HW is immensely valuable for offense, and U-turn lets you retain momentum. However, all the best set up sweepers (Revavroom, Cloyster, Oricoio-Sensu, Oicorio-Baile, etc.) outspeed it after a boost, which means that you cannot rely on it to revenge them. Further, given that it does not have trace, it cannot be used to keep weather teams in check. As a result, you must have additional speed control alongside it, preferably in the form of strong priority, or else you risk just crumbling versus set-up mons and weather. It also has a few other issues, most notably that it lacks a secondary stab, which makes it fairly weak. In practice, then, you mostly end up using it for the utility it provides as a support pokemon.

Offensive SR Mesprit has similar perks and drawbacks. Its decent speed tier, solid natural bulk, and alright defensive typing typically lets it set SR at some point in the game, while it beats most of our removers with Psychic and Ice Beam. Levitate also comes in handy sometimes, but beyond switching into EQ-locked Krook or a Mudsdale it doesn’t do too much. Mesprit also resists fighting and psychic but given its lack of recovery and middling speed tier it can’t really switch well into any of our fighting or psychic breakers, be it Tauros-B, Tauros-A, Primeape, Delphox, Salazzle, or Arcanine, as all of them outspeed and 2hko it. Indeed, vs offense, it usually gets outsped by at least four of their mons. Consequently, you typically just set SR or trade some damage versus offensive teams. As for bulkier teams, Mesprit is bad at making progress vs those, but you may at the very least set SR and U-turn around into a breaker of your choice. So, again, you just use it as an okay support mon which functions as a SR/U-turn bot.

As for other sets, Specs, CM, and Nasty Plot sets are just outclassed by Delphox at the moment. I see no reason to use them.

Delphox is a top tier threat but idk if I want it to stay or go. As far as I can tell, the main ban argument with respect to Delphox would be that it has an unhealthy effect on the meta because we lack consistent defensive counterplay to it. Delphox has a stab combination which is unresisted by the entire meta, and, with the aid of boosting moves such as cm and np, as well as the option to tera, we simply don’t have that many (if any) mons that can switch into it and beat it reliably. This is seen as problematic because Delphox also outspeeds the overwhelming majority of the meta, and, as such, it is more difficult to answer it offensively than your typical wallbreaker. As a result, you may feel forced to prepare for Delphox to an excessive degree, such to the extent where it seems unreasonable.

The crux of the issue, in my opinion, is to what degree we have sufficient offensive counterplay. Any tier that allows tera to roam free will struggle with a lack of defensive counterplay to a plethora of mons. The mechanic lets mons break their usual checks and counters, thereby rendering defensive counterplay less reliable and thus increasing the importance of offensive counterplay. If we wish to keep tera, then we must accept this, and we ought to alter our standards for tiering accordingly, i.e. we should only ban mons if they both have a lack of defensive counterplay AND a lack of offensive counterplay.

The question, then, is whether we have sufficient offensive counterplay for Delphox. As for the answer, I am uncertain. We do have many mons that outspeed it between Barraskewda, Kilowattrel, Salazzle, Tornadus, Inteleon, Weavile, Zoroark, and Lycanroc, as well as scarfers such as Passimian, Heracross, and Krookodile. We also have some good priority users in Arcanive, Tauros-A, Brute Bonnet and Samurott. Further, we also have access to a range of mons that beat Delphox 1v1, namely Goodra, Iron Thorns, Naclstack, and Vaporeon. Finally, Klefki can slow it down with Thunder Wave or set up rain, such that its team members can revenge it, and of course rain teams in general have no issues with it. However, in the end, I don’t know if this is enough. Maybe it puts too much of a strain on building. Maybe not. I want to see how the meta develops before I cast any final judgement.

 

[Sneakyplanner]

VS

Breaking news update on the ground type stealth rockers: I feel like with the July tier shifts, rocks mudsdale just can't keep them up against the two most common removers. altaria and brambleghast both switch into muds and without gardevoir, we don't really have an easy way to exploit altaria switching in. But at the same time, I feel like a set that had been falling off recently has gotten a lot better: taunt rocks krook. With tsareena falling off a bit (and tsareena just kind of being exloitable in general), gunk shot is a lot less needed on rocks krook and so taunt can provide a lot of utility vs the new meta. Brambleghast doesn't switch in well vs krook and even if it switches in on ricks, non-power whip versions lose to taunt. Taunt helps a lot vs naclstack and other rockers too.

In conclusion, mudsdale stocks go way down and krookodile stocks are way up. Brambleghast continues to annoy me a lot despite the fact that I love the little goofy ball.

 

[Yoshikitty64]

Alomomola moved from UU to RU
Armarouge moved from UU to RU
Articuno-Galar moved from UU to RU
Azelf moved from UU to RU
Basculegion moved from UU to RU
Bisharp moved from UU to RU
Chesnaught moved from UU to RU
Decidueye moved from UU to RU
Decidueye-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Diancie moved from UU to RU
Electrode-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Espeon moved from UU to RU
Forretress moved from UU to RU
Gallade moved from UU to RU
Gardevoir moved from UU to RU
Glastrier moved from UU to RU
Gyarados moved from UU to RU
Indeedee moved from UU to RU
Iron Jugulis moved from UU to RU
Iron Leaves moved from UU to RU
Lucario moved from UU to RU
Meloetta moved from UU to RU
Mew moved from UU to RU
Mimikyu moved from UU to RU
Noivern moved from UU to RU
Pawmot moved from UU to RU
Rotom-Heat moved from UU to RU
Slither Wing moved from UU to RU
Slowbro moved from UU to RU
Slowbro-Galar moved from UU to RU
Thundurus moved from UU to RU
Torkoal moved from UU to RU
Typhlosion-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Tyranitar moved from UU to RU
Uxie moved from UU to RU
Wo-Chien moved from UU to RU


that’s a lot of mons

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Alomomola moved from UU to RU
Armarouge moved from UU to RU
Articuno-Galar moved from UU to RU
Azelf moved from UU to RU
Basculegion moved from UU to RU
Bisharp moved from UU to RU
Chesnaught moved from UU to RU
Decidueye moved from UU to RU
Decidueye-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Diancie moved from UU to RU
Electrode-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Espeon moved from UU to RU
Forretress moved from UU to RU
Gallade moved from UU to RU
Gardevoir moved from UU to RU
Glastrier moved from UU to RU
Gyarados moved from UU to RU
Indeedee moved from UU to RU
Iron Jugulis moved from UU to RU
Iron Leaves moved from UU to RU
Lucario moved from UU to RU
Meloetta moved from UU to RU
Mew moved from UU to RU
Mimikyu moved from UU to RU
Noivern moved from UU to RU
Pawmot moved from UU to RU
Rotom-Heat moved from UU to RU
Slither Wing moved from UU to RU
Slowbro moved from UU to RU
Slowbro-Galar moved from UU to RU
Thundurus moved from UU to RU
Torkoal moved from UU to RU
Typhlosion-Hisui moved from UU to RU
Tyranitar moved from UU to RU
Uxie moved from UU to RU
Wo-Chien moved from UU to RU


that’s a lot of mons

Iron Leaves, Noivern, Jugulis, Gyarados, and TTar about to eat this tier alive.

Welcome back chesnaught though! Mon was an RU goat in gen 7 and i'm interested to see how it performs this gen.

 

[Swagodile]

Hopefully with Iron Treads dropping to UU, we'll in return get Donphan next month