Gen 2 RMT (New to GSC)

[Facepoet]

I just spent 2 hours typing up an amazing RMT describing my feelings on the GSC metagmae and a whole bunch of other shit, along with my team to post and for criticism. Internet preceded to close down. FUCK. its 4:26 in the morning right now. i want to go to sleep. lets try this again.

I have read all there is to read about GSC in the past month. Soaking it all up slowly, but surely. I've read the books from Borat, volumes 1 - 6, someof them even multiple times. i've done alot of thinking, and ive come up with two reasons why im not a good GSC player...

1. I have no experience. I have no one to play, and no way to test teams. how am I supposed to get a feel for GSC if i cant play? but this can't be helped, seeing as its no longer played by pretty much anyone, so point 1 will be from this point onward, dismissed.

2. I am lost and confused. Yes, ive read the guides, but after every statement im left wondering....what is good and what isnt? What is worth having on a team? When i read Borat's statements about his own unique creations, and then go read his "Look at the Current Metagame" post, all i see is hipster tryhard DPPt/BW players netting his sets and teams, just because he can use them well. Yes, a bunch of little Borats. not cool. So what does he do? Makes sets to counter those sets, and the cycle repeats, until Skarmory is no longer used, due simply to lack of interest, and people are running Moltres to take down some ridiculous Heracross set (all hypothetical, but you get the picture) This is not a downplay to borat, its a downplay to the people that think just because Borat is using it, that its a staple Pokemon. its like bad advertising, done really well. its like putting an athlete on a wheaties box, just to sell it, or books selling by the cover, just because the author is "Stephen King". Not to say that borat doesnt know what hes talking about, but for heavens sake people, show some originality, or at least some respect! all of this research and discovery about the theory of GSC has really grown on me, but it really opens alot more questions that it answers. anyway, my non-original team is posted below.it was originaly a offensive team, but i'd like more of a bulky balanced team that is more focused on hitting whatever it comes across for decent damage, and less about hitting certain things hard (save snorlax). not balanced between offensive and stall, but balanced between offensive and defensive. i am willing to modify anthing about this team, as i accept the fact that i know nothing about GSC. it is in no particular order, unless you are familiar with the english alphabet.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
-Reflect
-Fire Blast
-Frustration/ Return (Body Slam/ Double Edge?)
-Haze
~This set is a mixed attacking set built for surprising set up sweepers, with some support thrown in, in the form of Reflect. I think the that the "Mix" and "Haze" archetypes mesh very well together, and this Dragonite is made to take advantage of that.

Exeggutor @Leftovers
-Psychic
-Hidden Power (Bug)
-Sleep Powder
-Explosion
~I favor a Exeggutor as a balance between offensive and bulky, and he can sleep things. Psychic is main STAB, HP Bug for other grass or Psychics, and Explosion cuz I know that it just hurts.

Machamp @Leftovers
-Body Slam
-Cross Chop
-Fire Blast
-Earthquake
~Machamp hits in a way i'd like to call, "Snorlax+". He hits hard, and i want to take advantage of that, as well as have a plan for Snorlax to boot. Body Slam gets good damage, and added paralyze chance is always good, and Cross Chop is never a bad thing. Fire blast for things that wall it, and Earthquake for even more reckless damage. This set is among my least favorite on the team. it seems too generalized in to just attacking. Any help?

Rhydon @Leftovers
-Body Slam
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Zap Cannon
~I dont even want to explain this set, except for that i dont like it, and I feel it is being outclassed by Machamp in every way possible. Better moveset possible, or just different Pokemon?

Suicune @Leftovers
-Ice Beam
-Toxic
-Roar
-Rest
~A mixed wall of sorts. It does what it's supposed to, and gets Toxic off to boot. Not much to explain, but any suggestions?

Tentacruel @Leftovers
-Sluge Bomb
-Ice Beam
-Surf
-Rapid Spin
~Another Pokemon im under-satisfied with. It spins, and attacks, and thats about it. Any other Pokemon that would benefit the other 5 would do for this slot, or just an upgraded moveset?

I don't care if you tear this team apart, but give me something to work with when you're done. Thank You!

 

[Jorgen]

It's nothing compared to the armies of people playing newer gens, but PO's server generally has at least 2-3 GSC people on at most times. Granted, many don't really know too well what they're doing, but it's people to play, and there are "regulars" (not mainstay GSCers, but new people that just play regularly) that have gotten fairly competent just by sticking around and playing.

It's pretty evident from the team that you haven't really played enough to know how GSC works. Not an insult, just a fact. It also seems like you're using sets solely for the sake of being "original." Don't do that. Stuff is "standard" because it just works. I'm not saying to flat-out net team anybody, but when starting out, try to stick to standard sets and team archetypes, just so you can get a feel for how GSC is played. Then, when you have a better "feel" for the game, you can decide what changes might be needed. These changes will probably be more subtle than what you're trying to do.

The team itself basically needs a complete overhaul. Almost 0 synergy, so your offense is basically going nowhere, and defensively, you have... Suicune (and Dragonite, sorta). HP electrics, particularly Zapdos, are everywhere and will ruin you, and you're never breaking an opposing Suicune unless you blow up on it, which you probably won't even choose to do because you'll want Egg to take out the electric.

 

[Borat]

There's a very "effective" form of counter teaming that really ends UP not being counter teaming. It's a vague concept, but something to keep in mind; it helps if you have no idea where you're going with a team, what's good, what's not, etc.

It's a very crude approach, but usually turns out fine. It does require a certain level of understanding for competitive play though. So the idea is to counter both teams... at once. As best you can. Play it out in your head if you need it.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder

Nidoking (M) @ Leftovers
- Lovely Kiss
- Earthquake
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion
- Fire Punch

Exeggutor (M) @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
- Fire Blast
- Rock Slide
- DynamicPunch
- Earthquake

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Selfdestruct

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Rest
- Roar
- Toxic

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
- Toxic
- Surf
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunder

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I agree with Jorgen. To be creative without ending up being a useless gimmick, you need fundamental understanding of the metagame. This requires sufficient play experience. PO server has a few players, and so does atq.zapto.org of Netbattle Supremacy. Try to master a team with relatively standard mons before trying to be original.

Also, Borat's suggestion in teambuilding is effective. It is essentially a more elaborate threat-list - instead of making sure you that your team has an answer to individual threats, Borat suggests being able to cover general team archetypes that utilize a combination of these threats, thereby forming an effective offensive and defensive core. If your team does not get utterly walled by the defensive cores of these teams and have a counter or check to their offensive cores than you are good to go. By not counter-teaming 1 team but 2 teams of different playstyles, your resultant team becomes more flexible in addressing more threats.

So I suggest assessing your team's ability to handle the 2 sample teams that Borat has offered. Team 1 takes the offensive route whereas Team 2 is defensive. You will soon come to the conclusion that your team is not equipped with the resources to take those teams on. Then try to make a new team that provides you with a consistent strategy to take those teams out. Don't be afraid of using standards, since some are essential in dealing with the top threats. After you form your team, play a lot of GSC at Netbattle Supremacy (at atq.zapto.org) or Pokemon Online (at PO's server; not the server of Smogon).

Other tips to consider:

Make sure your team has an offensive presence. Your current team has little offensive presence. Sure you have Machamp and Rhydon, but they cannot surmount their respective counters without additional offense that complements with theirs. Complementary offense usually assist in wearing down and dispatching the counter of Machamp / Rhydon, or use the predictable switch-in to that counter as an opportunity to come in and set-up / dish out damage. The only thing that Suicune, Dragonite, and Tentacruel accomplish is doing a bad job at providing support (via Reflect, Rapid Spin, Poison) while halting the offensive momentum. Basically your current team lacks a lot of organized firepower.

Pack useful resistances / immunities. Some notable resistances are Normal (Snorlax's D-Edge, Explosions), Fighting (Machamp's Cross Chop), Electric (Zapdos / Raikou's Thunder), Ground (EQ from Marowak, Rhydon and Nidoking), Water (Vaporeon's Growth-boosted Surf / Hydro Pump), and Bug (Heracross's Megahorn). Sometimes you can get away with using Pokemon that has lots of bulk to compensate for its lack of resistance (for instance, Suicune / Cloyster is often used to counter Ground Types), but resistances are usually much better.

 

[Umby]

In the future, if you do decide to run "off-brand" sets, make sure you've properly analyzed the scenarios in which those moves would be deemed effective. Is HP Bug really worth the moveslot on Eggy when its most common switch-ins are Skarmory/Zapdos? Is it doing enough damage to the Psychics who are likely to switch in? Which ones DO switch in on Eggy? Are there more viable options to dealing with those Psychics that could also be applicable to other common Pokemon?

Stuff like that.

 

[Ryanor]

I am a new GSC player like you, and I can't to give any advice. Initially I tried to be original, but it don't give a good result. Then I tried with a standard team, and it allowed me know better the metagame. From there, I have made little changes to these teams with original things, and they work much better than at first.

 

[Facepoet]

Okay, first off, thank you very much for your support. After taking all things to mind, i decided to test out Borat's idea, on counter teaming the provided teams, and came up with this. Note that the movesets are VERY standard, per suggestion, so they are pretty much all off of the site, but it's the pick of the Pokemon that is the major step here.

Raikou @Leftovers
-Crunch
-Thunder
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Steelix @Leftovers
-Curse
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Roar

Starmie @Leftovers
-Ice Beam
-Recover
-Surf
-Thunder Wave

Machamp @Leftovers
-Cross Chop
-Fire Blast
-Curse
-Vital Throw

Snorlax @Leftovers
-Earthquake
-Double-Edge
-Curse
-Rest

Skarmory @Nothing
-Drill Peck
-Rest
-Whirlwind
-Thief

I'm going to be testing this team out right now, so ill post back later when i've made more discoveries and/or changes.

 

[Pocket]

Much better, I really like what you got there. You got a really solid defense. Team offense has improved overall, but I feel like it is rather overly reliant on Machamp to do the wall-breaking. Otherwise, Snorlax and Steelix would have a tough time time getting past Miltank. Raikou can also deal with Miltank, but people will simply switch to their own Raikou or their Ground Types.

Vital Throw on Machamp can be nifty, preventing Pokemon from phazing Machamp, but that current set really lacks coverage. Slowbro, Starmie, Gengar, Misdreavus, Zapdos, and Dragonite all hard-walls this set, for instance. I'd consider adding HP Ghost or Rock Slide over Vital Throw / Fire Blast. Cross Chop already hits Steel Types for good damage, so it's not a big loss if you lose Fire Blast. Cross Chop also hits most of the common phazers (Skarmory, Steelix, Raikou, and Suicune) for hard damage, so losing Vital Throw isn't bad either.

I can see Starmie's T-Wave working well in tandem with Machamp, allowing the latter to hit paralyzed Gengar, Starmie, or Zapdos with HP Ghost or Rock Slide.

 

[Umby]

Any particular reason why Steelix and Skarmory are both on the same team?

 

[Borat]

Drop ice beam on starmie. No need. Also, if Starmie's not spinning, you don't need Starmie. General rule of thumb that is always true.

If you're going for the curse 3 attack machamp, I wouldn't stray far from what's standard. Body Slam/HP Ghost/HP Bug, Rock Slide, CC.

 

[Facepoet]

changes:

Machamp @Leftovers
-Cross Chop
-Rock Slide
-Curse
-Hidden Power (Bug)

Starmie @Leftovers
-Thunder Wave
-Rapid Spin
-Surf
-Recover


As far as Steelix and Skarmory go, well i don't know really. I Guess i didnt realize the weakness there till you pointed it out, but I don't know which one needs to go?

Probable Steelix, but what would you suggest to go in his place? I'm thinking either Rhydon, Golem, or Tyranitar, because those three are bulky and have great attacking possibilities. opinion?

 

[waterise]

I am a new GSC player like you

How are people new to a game that was out 11 years ago (if you got it in the U.S.)?

 

[waterise]

As far as Steelix and Skarmory go, well i don't know really. I Guess i didnt realize the weakness there till you pointed it out, but I don't know which one needs to go?

Probable Steelix, but what would you suggest to go in his place? I'm thinking either Rhydon, Golem, or Tyranitar, because those three are bulky and have great attacking possibilities. opinion?

Skarmory is used way more than Steelix and Tyranitar (T-tar) is also over used so much by kids who can't win without overused Pokemon.

So it seems you wanted to be original, so I'd still pick Skarmory over Steelix, but don't use Tyranitar....just to be original and not a noob. :)

 

[Pocket]

I think I like Ttar's Crunch & Pursuit to get rid of Slowbro, Starmie, and ghosts that would stop Machamp. Rock Slide + Dynamic Punch / Roar to deal with Snorlax.

Rhydon, however, is also sweet, providing the immunity to Thunder so that opposing Zapdos or Raikou cannot simply spam Thunder, since paralysis is annoying. Also, STAB EQ coming off of its 130 Base Attack hurts a lot.

EQ, Rock Slide, Roar are pretty much staples. Zap Cannon would helps shoot down Starmie and allow Machamp to quickly dispatch it. It also lets your slow pokes to dish a hit out before water tanks like Slowbro or Suicune can heal themselves. Toxic to wear down the bulkier Waters may not be too bad either. Curse, Dynamic Punch, and Counter are all great means to deal with Snorlax. Curse up alongside Curselax and phaze Lax out. DPunch would give Umbreon and Miltank switch-ins a harder time dealing with Rhydon. I would not mind using DPunch + Curse together. Finally, Counter + Roar makes a great combo. If the opponent tries to set-up Curse they get phazed. If they predict Roar and attack, they get hit by Counter. Counter also bounces back and doubles Hidden Power damages, too.

Ttar and Rhydon both offer some great offensive reinforcement to your team. Ttar is sort of more specialized, whereas Rhydon is pure brawns. They both combine nicely with Skarmory to check most Snorlax variants.

 

[Facepoet]

cool thanks! im going to be trying out both with the team to see which one i like best

 

[Facepoet]

Turns out that i don't really like either of Tyranitar or Rhydon on the team, so im trying out the Dragonite from the previous attempt at a team, and he is actually working well as a team player. He gets in alot and annoys the hell out of Curselax, so I'll let you know if i decide to keep him or not, but the other two just didnt work out well.

 

[Borat]

Skarmory is used way more than Steelix and Tyranitar (T-tar) is also over used so much by kids who can't win without overused Pokemon.

So it seems you wanted to be original, so I'd still pick Skarmory over Steelix, but don't use Tyranitar....just to be original and not a noob. :)

You never "force" originality, that was the whole point of everyone posting. That's the most scrub thing to do ever. So pot, have you met kettle?

 

[Ryanor]

How are people new to a game that was out 11 years ago (if you got it in the U.S.)?

I started in the competitive world with DPP. Thereafter I have tested other tiers.

 

[Pocket]

Turns out that i don't really like either of Tyranitar or Rhydon on the team, so im trying out the Dragonite from the previous attempt at a team, and he is actually working well as a team player. He gets in alot and annoys the hell out of Curselax, so I'll let you know if i decide to keep him or not, but the other two just didnt work out well.

That's fine the Dragonite is a nice Hazer. It can also haze Growth Vaporeon without Ice Beam, which is nice. If you don't like the Normal moves, you can try HP Flying instead. It sucks that Dragonite cannot learn EQ until Advance generation :/