Revisions - Revenankh discussion

[Umbreon Dan]

I promised I'd get the first poll up today, and here it is.

I combined the movepool and ability poll to make up for a bit of lost time. We're not on a particularly tight schedule, but there's no reason to dilly-dally either.

At this point I'm looking for stat spread submissions. One per user, please. If you've previously suggested more than one, I'd appreciate it if you could choose just one and submit it formally.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

Mold Breaker looks to be almost unanimous. Air Lock WOULD be good, just not so much on a Pokemon that isn't really built to be a lead (as most weather-changers are also leads). Mold Breaker gives it an interesting weapon, but I still see it fall out of favor over ShedRest.

With the attacks, I'm in agreement with everything except Stone Edge & Close Combat.

 

[Deck Knight]

Just to be on point, I think the most awesome thing about Revenankh is that it did a great job at what it did without the sort of inflated stats or bloated movepools that went to other CAPs. Rev really is one of the most cohesive mons ever.

That spirit in mind, I'm still supporting the last stat spread offering.

95/108/90/65/100/72. BST 530.

PSweep: 146 (Rank 5: Good)
PTank: 152 (Rank 6: Very Good)
SSweep: 96 (Rank 3: Below Average
STank: 166 (Rank 6: Very Good)
ODB: -3.47 (Slight Bias to defense)
PSB: 5.35 (Moderate Bias to physical)
Overall Rating: 306 (Very Good)

This allows you to run a decent Taunt set with the EVs posted earlier, outrunning Arghonaut while maintaining the current defenses of the BU set.

There is another build I thought of with Taunt in mind.

90/105/85/65/95/90. BST 530.

PSweep: 165 (Rank 6: Very Good)
PTank: 139 (Rank 5: Good)
SSweep: 106 (Rank 4: Above Average)
STank: 153 (Rank 6: Very Good)
ODB: 1.61 (Slight biased to offense)
PSB: 6.62 (Moderate bias to physical)
Overall Rating: 307 (Very Good)

This is a pretty large revision, reducing defenses but increasing speed to a level where Choiced Revenank could outspeed non-Spe boosted Base 100s, Taunt a bunch of things with no investment, and with what looks like new movepool additions, pose a greater variety of threats.

 

[tennisace]

The second spread reminds me of Kangaskhan. Not that that's a bad thing, since Kanga is awesome in UU. I personally like the second spread since it's bulky, but needs to rely on resistances more now and can't just totally tank anything and everything with shedrest. Taunt seems like a pretty cool stallbreaker since it's a spin-blocker! Anyway I'm done rambling so yeah.

 

[Zystral]

I prefer DK's first - It keeps with the original use and idea behind Rev and there's no massive change. Taunt is still an option and becomes viable, but the Speed isn't so high that a pure offensive set becomes a better choice (pun not intended).

However, it would be possible to compromise;
90/105/88/60/100/87 or something along those lines. I'm not sure. Preferrably enough to outpace Rotom-A (just) whilst maintaining some bulkiness to be able to do what it's supposed to.

 

[zarator]

I absolutely do not like DK's second spread. The last thing Revenankh needs is less bulk. The first one is better IMO, however not satisfying. I really cannot understand all the hype behind Taunt and a Speed boost. Besides the fact that the only thing Rev would have over other Taunt + setup sweepers like Gyara would be his Ghost type to block Rapid Spin (and should I opt for a Spinblocker I'd go with the much more durable Shedrest set), I think Rev would benefit a lot more from a boost in its durability rather than in its speed.

This is the spread I suggest, or at least, the direction I'd like the spread tweak to follow:

95/105/90/65/115/65

PSweepiness: 126 Good
PTankiness: 152 Very Good
SSweepiness: 88 Below Average
STankiness: 189 Excellent
O/D Balance: -10.39 Biased towards Defense
P/S Balance: 0.15 Slightly Biased towards Physical
Overall Rating: 302 Very Good

While most powerful Special attacks still do similar damage (assuming max Sp Def, i.e. 361, Air Slash from Max SAtk Togekiss still 3HKOes, Psychic from LO Starmie still 2HKOes and so on), the beauty of the enhanced bulk comes in play against weaker attacks. Most barely 3HKOes are converted to 4HKOes, 4HKOes become 5HKOes and so on. All this aid Revenankh's greatly in his set up (I mean, no one would set up Rev in face of Togekiss or Starmie anyway), and thus improve is durability as a Spinblocker.

While it is said that Revenankh needs Taunt to perform his job as a Spinblocker, the only Spinner Taunt would come handy against is Forretress (and Fidgit and maybe Tentacruel, but the two ar too fast anyway). And Forretress is so slow that no Speed boost is required. Against Arghonaut, Mold Breaker is far more effective than Taunt. In short, even if you think Rev absolutely needs Taunt (which I disagree with, but whatever), go ahead and give him. But if you think a Speed improvement is necessary, even more than a HP/Def/Sp Def one, there is a problem with your priorities IMO.

EDIT: After some experimentation, I came up with an alternate spread:

94/110/90/50/120/71 BST 535
(compared to the original stats: +4 HP/+5 Atk/-15 SAtk/+20 SDef/+6 Spd)

PSweepiness 148 Good
PTankiness 151 Very Good
SSweepiness 78 Below Average
STankiness 195 Excellent
O/D Balance -7.87 Moderately biased towards Defense
P/D Balance 3.77 Slightly biased towards Physical
Overall rating 313 Very Good

Let me explain. The enhanced HP and SDef improve the Bulk Up set, which now is impregnable to all but supereffective attacks. Not a problem anyway, since Fidgit is the most used Pokémon and defeats Argho regardless of its Sp Def. 71 Speed outpaces Metagross and it's useful on more aggressive sets. The 110 Base Attack also comes in handy. I lowered the SAtk stat in order to keep the BST reasonable, since it is useless anyway.

 

[Korski]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarator
I really cannot understand all the hype behind Taunt and a Speed boost. Besides the fact that the only thing Rev would have over other Taunt + setup sweepers like Gyara would be his Ghost type to block Rapid Spin (and should I opt for a Spinblocker I'd go with the much more durable Shedrest set), I think Rev would benefit a lot more from a boost in its durability rather than in its speed.

Taunt Rev has the potential to be a huge boost for stall and stall-breaking teams and a speed boost would give it a decent reason to use the move. At 65 Spe, it isn't Taunting much besides Forretress or Hippowdon. There are plenty of pokemon in the 60-85 Speed range that Rev would like to Taunt or otherwise outrun, like Vaporeon, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Skarmory, other Revenankh, and defensive CM Cune with little investment. Taunt is also a great blind move to use, as most of Rev's common switch-ins rely on non-damaging moves to either shut it down or set up on it (NP Kiss, Trick users, Agiligross, Fidgit, BU Argho, etc.). I don't really see Taunt+BU sets being the idea behind the speed boost, but rather a more rounded team support + Spin blocking build. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.

Along the lines of stat spreads and speed boosts, I think Rev would really like a few extra bumps:

90/105/95/60/110/75
PS: 143, Rank 5
PT: 155, Rank 6
SS: 90, Rank 3
ST: 175, Rank 7
ODB: -5.5, Moderately Defensive
PSB: 4.69, Slightly Physical
BSR: 307, Very Good
BST: 535

+5 Def / -5 SpA / +10 SpD / +10 Spe / +27 BSR / +20 BST

This spread is actually designed with Taunt in mind. A spread of 252 HP / 168 SpD / 88 Spe Careful hits 208 Spe and can outrun anything up to and including defensive Suicune. The +5 Def and +10 SpD hit 384 HP/ 226 Def / 327 SpD with this spread (for comparison: 384 HP / 226 Def / 319 SpD is where the current BU set is, so the new set adds a little to the overall bulk while giving it a useful speed boost). Hitting the same defensive numbers as the current BU set frees up 120 EVs total, so if Speed isn't all that important to you, you can get extra boosts in bulk and/or Atk if you so desire. 252 HP / 252 SpD EVs and a neutral nature also hit the exact same defenses as the current set.

I think Rev would really appreciate these boosts. Most Rev will appreciate the added bulk, Mold Breaker Rev will like the extra EVs to put into Atk, and support/anti-stall Rev will love the extra speed.

 

[tennisace]

Why are we focusing on making the taunt set outspeed most stall teams, since I see absolutely: 0 of them on the ladder; Colossoil has made damn sure of that. I know I wanted a faster taunt so that it didn't only outspeed stall teams, but some bulky offense too. Besides, what does Revenankh's Taunt set have over Colossoil?

 

[Zystral]

What I'm not too sure on is why everyone is so obsessed about giving Rev more Special Defence.
If anything, I'd boost HP to give better overall tankiness and raise Attack slightly so that more EVs could be shifted from HP and Attack to Sp.Def if the user so desires or to keep Attack and HP kept at high levels, again, if the user desires.

 

[Korski]

@Tennisace: I agree that a fast Taunt is more useful than a slow Taunt in most circumstances, and Colossoil has indeed made an enormous impact and shifted the entire CAP metagame in an offensive direction. However, a defensive Taunt like Rev's, aimed to prevent setting up from viable switch-ins, and an offensive one like Colossoil's, aimed to prevent healing, Phazing, Spikes stacking, etc. so it can muscle through defensive threats, are two very different things, imo. The comparison between Taunt Revenankh and Taunt Colossoil (and Taunt Gliscor and Taunt Gyarados) becomes more relevant the further you push Rev's speed, yet there is no way it will become a "better" Taunt user against stall. It'll still be good, just not as good. However, in terms of being a Taunt user for stall, Rev could be incredibly useful and may help give stall a fighting chance of a comeback on the CAP ladder (being able to deal 72.06% - 85.29% to 4/0 Colossoil with a 0 EV, +0 Cross Chop/Hammer Arm is a huge plus, as well), something it does not need tons more speed to do, imo.

The reason I submitted this spread was to potentially help Rev be better (as I saw it) at its "job" of Spin Blocking and abusing Bulk Up by allowing it to better switch in on, stay in against, and force out OU's Rapid Spinners and to better deal with offensive threats that like to switch in (without dramatically toying around with its stats). To fill the void left by Rotom-A, I felt that it should focus on defensive additions to better deal with the Colossoil metagame. Taunt was on my mind, yes, when making it, but it wasn't my only consideration. Sure, it still can't switch in on LO Colossoil, but they don't typically run RS anyway, so it doesn't have to, and if 'Soil has to start running Rapid Spin to beat stall, then that's a coverage move or a Sucker Punch or a Selfdestruct it can't abuse any longer. An excellent, more offensive spread that can better abuse Mold Breaker or run anti-bulky offense with Taunt is already available in Deck's 90/105/85/65/95/90 build, which is why I didn't submit something with the kind of Speed you're talking about.

@ ZystraL: seeing as most Rev don't run Atk EVs, I'm not sure how many "free" EVs it'll have from there. Adding to HP and not Def/SpD is just a reorganization of the same stats, so I'm not exactly sure what you're saying there. I mean, you can have a small range of base stats for every stat and fart around with EVs to get the same overall numbers, so it really depends on what you think should be the higher "maximizable" stats. Based on your post, it appears to be HP. Do you have a particular spread in mind besides your 90/105/88/60/100/87 spread? You should submit it.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Poll results:

Ability:
Mold Breaker     14
Air Lock          3
Levitate          2

Movepool:
Shadow Claw      16
Will-o-Wisp      15
Fire Punch       14
Cross Chop       13
Stone Edge       13
Thunderpunch     13
Sucker Punch     11
---------------------- cutoff
Close Combat      8

There were 19 voters. Every move except Close Combat will be added to Revenankh, and the secondary ability will be changed to Mold Breaker.

I am going to wait about twenty-four hours from this post for stat spread submissions before I start the poll. Let me remind you that you can't submit more than one, and if you have done so, you will need to confirm one.

edit: I'm still waiting to hear from one user in particular

 

[Zystral]

@ Admiral Korski
I'm technically indifferent to what direction Revenankh goes.
I don't really mind what happens, although my opinion is that measures should be taken to make him more versatile, and what versatility means would be each person's own discretion.

Although, now you mention it, an increase in HP wouldn't be too bad, conjuring up 101 Subs would be pretty helpful, letting him run a SubCM Jirachi-esque set.

Despite that, I don't see much of a point of boosting his Speed to such high levels either. Sure, Taunt becomes a nicer idea and a better option, and sure, he may be able to pull off a more sweeping set. But there's not much noteworthy that he outspeeds unless you give a massive boost in Speed. If I recall correctly, the original idea was to make Revenankh better at his original job - Spin Blocking and BulkUp.

Playing around with it, I've conjured up and I'm liking something along the lines of
100 / 105 / 105 / 40 / 100 / 80
BST; 530
PS; 146 (Rank 5: Good)
PT; 182 (Rank 7: Excellent)
SS; 68 (Rank 2: Poor)
ST; 171 (Rank 6: Very Good)
O/D Balance; -6.04 (Moderate Bias Defence)
P/S Balance; 13.01 (Bias Physical)
Overall; 310 (Rank 6: Very Good)

The Speed is a compromise between use of Taunt and the use of Speed for other reasons, primarily being offence.
At Base 80, if you use Adamant and Maximum EV investment for an offensive set, you tie with Neutral Dragonite/Mamoswine, provided they're unboosted (259). You can also outspeed Standard Defensive Rotom-A, Standard Skarmory, some variants of Metagross (and the Attack boost allows for a nice KO), all non-boosted Tyranitar and neutral Nature non-Scarfed Heatran with max investment.

A boost in Defence will hopefully allow either more longevity for the Bulk Up sets should the same amount of EVs be used, or more power if any new unused EVs can be shifted to Attack.
A similar cause with HP as well, Max HP obviously giving 404 HP, although warranting the use of Substitute may be difficult on some sets.
Anything Special will still give it headaches, but at the least it can deal with offensive threats with a bit more ease, taking slightly less damage from each hit.

This spread could easily be improved, and is open to suggestions, although the original idea was of course to let Rev regain its status as a Spin Blocker and a dangerous Stat-Upper, this spread just also allows for variation.

 

[zarator]

@Tennisace: I agree that a fast Taunt is more useful than a slow Taunt in most circumstances, and Colossoil has indeed made an enormous impact and shifted the entire CAP metagame in an offensive direction. However, a defensive Taunt like Rev's, aimed to prevent setting up from viable switch-ins, and an offensive one like Colossoil's, aimed to prevent healing, Phazing, Spikes stacking, etc. so it can muscle through defensive threats, are two very different things, imo. The comparison between Taunt Revenankh and Taunt Colossoil (and Taunt Gliscor and Taunt Gyarados) becomes more relevant the further you push Rev's speed, yet there is no way it will become a "better" Taunt user against stall. It'll still be good, just not as good. However, in terms of being a Taunt user for stall, Rev could be incredibly useful and may help give stall a fighting chance of a comeback on the CAP ladder (being able to deal 72.06% - 85.29% to 4/0 Colossoil with a 0 EV, +0 Cross Chop/Hammer Arm is a huge plus, as well), something it does not need tons more speed to do, imo.

As I said before, when you think about a specific set for a specific Pokémon (in this case, Taunt Revenankh), you have to think to whether or not a particular set is outclassed. Pokémon is a game of niches, and if a Pokémon does a specific niche better than you, you must move somewhere else.

So, what about Taunt Revenankh? LEt's see which could be the possible uses (and competitors for the team spot) in the CAP OU metagame.
As an offensive Taunt user? You said it, Colossil outclasses him. Hell, even if you depended on Revenankh for a stallbreaking Taunt user, Colossoil is still better offensively.
As a defensive Taunt user? Well, Revenankh has three things to do as a defensive Taunt user, which are: Spinblocking, Bulk Up, Defensive check (i.e. something meant exclusively to wall and taunt some threats). As a Spinblocker, you do not need Taunt. As I said before, the only spinner you could think Taunting is Forretress, since Fidgit and even Tentacruel are too fast anyway. If you are really that concerned about dealing with Forretress (I really cannot think of any more reasons you would need Taunt if what you need is a Spinblocker), just use a Fire-type move and you are done for. Forretress is also so slow that Revenankh would outspeed him even at his pristine 65 base Speed.
As a setupper, I already said it too, Gyarados does the job better. Hell, even if you put Taunt to get past Arghonaut (which I think is the main reason why some of you want to increase Rev speed to into the 75-80 region), Gyarados does that same, exact thing better. Gyarados also has to worry less about things like Metagross and Starmie since, thanks to Dragon Dance, he can outspeed them whereas Rev is at mercy of them (and also Togekiss and Zapdos I may add).
The defensive check in general is probably Revenankh's best bet. However, unless I specifically need Rev's typing and/or stats (and if that is the case, probably I'd go with the ShedRest set anyway), Taunt Skarmory (for example) is better, since at least it can do something else (namely, spikes) rahter than sit down and wall stuff.

Bottom line is: if you want to use Taunt Revenankh as a spinblocker, you do not need the extra speed, but rather extra bulk, if you want to use Taunt Revenankh as a setupper, use Taunt Gyarados, and if you want to use Taunt Revenankh as a Taunting wall in general, use Skarmory, Gliscor or something else. Some of you may call this argument too brief for thaeir taste. But even if I go on and spend two pages of the thread to explain in detail how almost every specific use of Taunt Revenankh is outclassed - and how those who aren't strictly outclassed either do not require extra speed or perform mediocrely compared to standard ShedRest or to other Pokémon in the tier - the conclusion would be the same: using the (let's call them this way) "extra BST points" to raise Revenankh's Speed (sometimes hell, even at the cost of lowering its bulkiness) is the wrong way to go with the stat spread revamp.

The reason I submitted this spread was to potentially help Rev be better (as I saw it) at its "job" of Spin Blocking and abusing Bulk Up by allowing it to better switch in on, stay in against, and force out OU's Rapid Spinners and to better deal with offensive threats that like to switch in (without dramatically toying around with its stats). To fill the void left by Rotom-A, I felt that it should focus on defensive additions to better deal with the Colossoil metagame. Taunt was on my mind, yes, when making it, but it wasn't my only consideration. Sure, it still can't switch in on LO Colossoil, but they don't typically run RS anyway, so it doesn't have to, and if 'Soil has to start running Rapid Spin to beat stall, then that's a coverage move or a Sucker Punch or a Selfdestruct it can't abuse any longer. An excellent, more offensive spread that can better abuse Mold Breaker or run anti-bulky offense with Taunt is already available in Deck's 90/105/85/65/95/90 build, which is why I didn't submit something with the kind of Speed you're talking about.

Sorry, but if Revenankh cannot switch into Colossoil just like Rotom (as you admitted apparently), how is adding Taunt helping Revenankh filling the void left by Rotom (besides the facts that Rotom isn't "disappeared" at all and that Taunt is completely useless against Colossoil as you said). Also, that spread of Deck Knight you highlighted is horrible in my opinion. Not only it diminishes Revenankh's bulkiness (which is crucial for the main ShedRest set), but it completely bastardize Rev's selling points as a Spin Blocker (namely, his ability to come in repeteadly and Resting off the damage very fast thanks to Shed Skin) for a bad middle-ground spread which cannot make up for the loss in Defenses through the enhanced Speed (for reasons I explained above).

@ ZystraL: seeing as most Rev don't run Atk EVs, I'm not sure how many "free" EVs it'll have from there. Adding to HP and not Def/SpD is just a reorganization of the same stats, so I'm not exactly sure what you're saying there. I mean, you can have a small range of base stats for every stat and fart around with EVs to get the same overall numbers, so it really depends on what you think should be the higher "maximizable" stats. Based on your post, it appears to be HP. Do you have a particular spread in mind besides your 90/105/88/60/100/87 spread? You should submit it.

At least, HP goes towards enhancing the strong points of Revenankh.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Sorry for the delay, but the poll is up

 

[HeavyOctillery]

Damn, it seems to be neck-and-neck between Jibaku's & zarator's......

I'd go with zarator's, though, just for the ATK boost. LOWERING Rev's ATK is taking a step backwards.



EDIT: I admit, I didn't notice Deck Knight's spread; it's also a solid choice for those who don't think that Rev needs more Sp. Def.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

In an extremely close poll, zarator's spread has won; our new spread for Revenankh is 94 / 110 / 90 / 50 / 120 / 71.

For those interested, the tally was 7 for zarator, 6 for Deck Knight, and 4.5 for Jibaku (Jibaku gets a half-vote).

Our new and improved Revenankh:

Shed Skin / Mold Breaker
94 / 110 / 90 / 50 / 120 / 71
with the following moves added:

Cross Chop
Fire Punch
Shadow Claw
Stone Edge
Sucker Punch
Thunderpunch
Will-o-Wisp

 

[tennisace]

cut, print.