Policy Review Review - Complete Movepool Submissions

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Putting this as a skeleton for now since most of the VGM definitions and whatnot are somewhat subjective, plus it would be better to get a skeleton down before I do a load of work I don't have to do.

Changes to be made based on the following ruling:

Deck Knight said:
Movepools will still count VGMs, however there will be no specific limit and Ability and Stats as well as Pokemon norms will be considered in selecting movepool slates. The rules for VGMs have changed somewhat in the 5th Generation and the process should aim at becoming less restrictive.
http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions

----------

Introduction

This stage of the CAP process is where complete movepools are created and submitted for consideration by the Topic Leader. There are many restrictions on the moves that are allowed, as well as how many of each move type are allowed per movepool. There is a limit on which competitive moves may be allowed into a movepool based on the lists generated by the Movepool Discussion stage of the CAP process. No competitive move that is not specifically listed as allowed in the Movepool Discussion stage can appear on any submitted movepool. As to what makes a move competitive or not, it is a decision to be made at the sole discretion of the Topic Leader.

The movepools submitted are intended to be structured like a normal Pokémon movepool. A complete movepool should contain three lists of moves, according to the method by which the Pokémon learns the moves - Level-Up Moves, TMs and Move Tutor Moves, and Egg Moves. The egg groups for the Pokémon are determined by the movepool submitter. Project participants can submit a draft proposals of full movepools and edit them based on feedback from the Topic Leader and the general public. After reviewing the draft movepools, the Topic Leader will select several submitters to present final movepool submissions. Those final submissions will be voted on by the general public.

Movepool Considerations

Movepools have to be moderated by the Topic Leader, as if they are too barren or too bloated, they run the risk of either overpowering or underpowering the given CAP. This does not mean that there are any enforced limits that your movepool must conform to; however, there are guidelines as to size and effectiveness, and the Topic Leader reserves the right to reject your movepool should it be grossly different from those chosen. The way that this is quantified is by counting the total number of moves and "Very Good Moves", or VGMs, in a given movepool. A VGM is defined as "A move that is considered by the combination of its power, accuracy, effect chance, move priority, power points, and overall type coverage to be of distinct individual competitive advantage in a given movepool."

The Base Stat Ratings for this particular CAP set the guidelines for the total movepool size and the total number of Very Good Moves allowed in the movepool, though these are subject to the individual discrimination of the Topic Leader before the guidelines for that particular CAP are presented.

Very Good Move List

While there are many different conditions and requirements for most moves, the list below gives all moves that should under ordinary circumstances be assumed to be Very Good Moves. Very Good Moves represent the common powerful attacking and support moves used in the OU metagame. Any move that is not considered a Very Good Move for any given CAP is not restricted in that Pokemon's movepool, though you may wish to take flavour considerations into account. Note that the Very Good Move list may not coincide with the competitive move list as decided on for a CAP by the Topic Leader. The Very Good Move list is only relevant when considering the guidelines described later below.

Code:
Acid Armor
Acid Spray
Acrobatics
Aerial Ace
Agility
Air Slash
Amnesia
Aqua Jet
Aqua Tail
Aromatherapy
Attack Order
Aura Sphere
Autotomize
Avalanche
Barrier
Baton Pass
Belly Drum
Blaze Kick
Blizzard
Block
Body Slam
Bone Rush
Bonemerang
Bounce
Brave Bird
Brick Break
Bug Buzz
Bulk Up
Bullet Punch
Bullet Seed
Calm Mind
Charge Beam
Circle Throw
Clear Smog
Close Combat
Coil
Confuse Ray
Cosmic Power
Cotton Guard
Counter
Crabhammer
Cross Chop
Cross Poison
Crunch
Curse*
Dark Pulse
Defend Order
Destiny Bond
Detect
Discharge
Double-edge
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw
Dragon Dance
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Tail
Drain Punch
Drill Peck
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Earth Power
Earthquake
Electro Ball
Encore
Endeavor
Energy Ball
Eruption
Explosion
Extrasensory
ExtremeSpeed
Facade
Fake Out
Fire Blast
Fire Fang
Fire Punch
Flame Charge
Flamethrower
Flare Blitz
Flash Cannon
Fly
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Foul Play
Frost Breath
Frustration
Gear Grind
Giga Drain
Glare
Grass Knot
Gravity
Growth
Gunk Shot
Gyro Ball
Hammer Arm
Haze
Head Charge
Head Smash
Heal Bell
Heal Order
Healing Wish
Heat Crash
Heat Wave
Heavy Slam
Hi Jump Kick
Hidden Power
Hone Claws
Horn Leech
Howl
Hurricane
Hydro Pump
Hyper Voice
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Ice Punch
Ice Shard
Icicle Crash
Icicle Spear
Ingrain
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Jump Kick
Knock Off
Lava Plume
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Light Screen
Lovely Kiss
Low Kick
Mach Punch
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Mean Look
Meditate
Mega Kick
Megahorn
Memento
Meteor Mash
Milk Drink
Mirror Coat
Moonlight
Morning Sun
Muddy Water
Nasty Plot
Nature Power
Night Daze
Night Shade
Night Slash
Outrage
Overheat
Pain Split
Payback
Perish Song
Petal Dance
Poison Jab
Power Whip
Protect
Psychic
Psycho Shift
Psyshock
Pursuit
Quick Attack
Quiver Dance
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Razor Shell
Recover
Reflect
Refresh
Rest
Return
Reversal
Roar
Rock Blast
Rock Polish
Rock Slide
Roost
Scald
Seed Bomb
Seismic Toss
Selfdestruct
Shadow Ball
Shadow Claw
Shadow Punch
Shadow Sneak
Sharpen
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Signal Beam
Sky Uppercut
Slack Off
Sleep Powder
Sleep Talk
Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Softboiled
Spark
Spider Web
Spikes
Spore
Stealth Rock
Stockpile
Stone Edge
Stored Power
Storm Throw
Stun Spore
Substitute
Sucker Punch
Super Fang
Superpower
Surf
Switcheroo
Swords Dance
Synthesis
Tail Glow
Tail Slap
Taunt
Teeter Dance
Thrash
Thunder
Thunder Fang
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
ThunderPunch
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Transform
Tri Attack
Trick
Trick Room
U-turn
Vacuum Wave
Volt Switch
Volt Tackle
Water Spout
Waterfall
Weather Ball
Whirlwind
Wild Charge
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Wood Hammer
Work Up
X-Scissor
Yawn
Zen Headbutt
* Curse only counts as a Very Good Move for Pokémon that are not of the Ghost-type

However, as previously mentioned, there are a number of considerations that can cause the VGM list to change, depending on the situation in question. While the final VGM list is subject to the Topic Leader's discretion, the following rules will generally be applied at all times, unless the Topic Leader explicitly states otherwise:

Legendary Pokémon signature moves are automatically disallowed for all CAPs.

Note that this does not include non-legendary signature moves, although these may also be frowned upon. As stated above, these moves should not be put into your movepools unless allowed by the Topic Leader:

Code:
Aeroblast
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Dark Void
Doom Desire
Freeze Shock
Glaciate
Fusion Flare
Fusion Bolt
Heart Swap
Ice Burn
Judgment
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Sacred Sword
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Techno Blast
V-create
Move copies count as VGMs, but only count once as Very Good Moves when more than one are present in a movepool.

As seen in the below table, there are some moves that have other moves listed next to them. These moves are 'equivalent' in terms of the Very Good Move list, which means that the moves count as 1 Very Good Move alone or together. For instance, if a movepool has both Recover and Slack Off on it, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as 2 moves toward the total move count.

Code:
Acid Armor = Barrier = Iron Defense
Agility = Rock Polish
Block = Mean Look = Spider Web
Cosmic Power = Defend Order
Detect = Protect
Frustration = Return
Heal Order = Milk Drink = Recover = Slack Off = Softboiled
Howl = Meditate = Sharpen
Moonlight = Morning Sun = Synthesis
Switcheroo = Trick
If a move is 100% outclassed by another move in the movepool, the two moves only count as one Very Good Move.

As above, certain moves are so much outclassed by other moves that there is literally no scenario where the lesser move would be a wiser choice over the former. For example, Tail Glow provides a three-stage boost to Special Attack, but Nasty Plot only boosts the stat two stages. If both Tail Glow and Nasty Plot are on the same movepool, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as two moves towards the total move count.

Code:
Head Charge > Double-Edge
Aromatherapy > Heal Bell
Attack Order > X-Scissor
Autotomize > Agility, Rock Polish
Bug Buzz > Signal Beam
Coil > Bulk Up, Hone Claws
Cotton Guard > Acid Armor, Iron Defense, Barrier
Crabhammer > Aqua Tail
Explosion > Selfdestruct
Fire Punch > Fire Fang
Gear Grind > Meteor Mash, Iron Tail
Growth > Work Up
Hi Jump Kick > Jump Kick
Ice Punch > Ice Fang
Leaf Blade > Seed Bomb
Quiver Dance > Calm Mind
Shadow Claw > Shadow Punch
Shift Gear > Dragon Dance, Agility, Rock Polish
Swords Dance > Sharpen, Howl, Meditate
Tail Glow > Nasty Plot
ThunderPunch > Thunder Fang
Volt Tackle > Wild Charge
Whirlwind > Roar
All moves made competitively viable by an ability are considered Very Good Moves.

Abilities, such as Technician and No Guard, affect the viability of specific moves that might not otherwise be considered Very Good Moves. If a move's Base Power, accuracy, or secondary effects are made comparable to an existing Very Good Move by an ability, then that move is considered a Very Good Move. For instance, a Pokémon with No Guard would turn Dynamicpunch into a Very Good Move through the removal of accuracy as a factor.

If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Topic Leader has the option of discounting it.

For example, a Dark-type CAP with low Special Attack and high Attack has little use for Shadow Ball, which gives almost exactly the same coverage as its STAB attacks, but without the STAB boost and off its weaker stat. So, this move is of very little competitive use. In this case the Topic Leader may decide to discount this move as a VGM; however, it will still be a part of the total move count. This will only be used in extreme cases, however.

Guidelines on Movepool Size

While there are technically no limits to the number of approved VGMs and total moves, the Topic Leader reserves the right to not include any movepool in their slate for the polls which drastically deviates from their suggested movepool limits. While every Topic Leader can choose the limits for the movepools on their own judgement, the general rule is that the the higher the Base Stat Rating for a CAP that is allowed, the smaller the Total Movepool and Very Good Movepool can be. This is illustrated in the table below.

Code:
.......Overall Ratings.......            .......Movepool Size.......            
Description    Limit    Examples..........    Description    Total Moves    Very Good Moves    Examples
Above Average    250    Spiritomb, Azumarill    Fantastic    95........    45........    Tyranitar, Togekiss
Good............    300    Swampert, Gliscor    Excellent    85........    40........    Sceptile, Swampert
Very Good.....   350    Infernape, Lucario    Very Good    75........    35........    Mismagius, Steelix
Excellent......    400    Mew, Heatran.....    Good.....    65........    30........    Walrein, Heracross
Fantastic.....    450    Deoxys, Garchomp    Above Average    55........    25........    Jumpluff, Swellow
Movepool Components

While flavour is discouraged in the competitive moves discussions, it is very much an integral part of a CAP, and the movepool reflects this. Sharp flavour observations can be as important as VGM considerations, as only half of your movepool contains VGMs, and you are advised to make sure that your movepools make the most of the flavour room available. It should be noted that there are certain trends which most ingame Pokemon follow, based on types and moves, and you are advised to keep these in mind when

The first requirement is the Type-Move list of requirements. For each type of a CAP, there are several moves, including some Very Good Moves, that come up in the movepools of the vast majority of all ingame Pokemon with that type. The second of these requirements is the Move-Move list of requirements. For instance, if a given CAP movepool includes Ice Beam, it is advised that it also includes Blizzard, as that is generally what would happen ingame. Tables of these two movepool requirements are listed below. Note that these do not include moves introduced in the 5th Generation, and are only included as a reference.

Code:
Bug		Double-edge
		Sunny Day
Dark		Dark Pulse
		Mud-Slap
		Payback
		Sunny Day
		Taunt
Dragon		Aerial Ace
		Draco Meteor
		Dragon Claw
		Dragon Pulse
		Earthquake
		Mud-Slap
		Outrage
		Rain Dance
		Sunny Day
		Swift
Electric		Charge Beam
		Discharge
		Light Screen
		Rain Dance
		Shock Wave
		Signal Beam
		Swift
		Thunder
		Thunder Wave
		Thunderbolt
Fighting		Brick Break
		Bulk Up
		Focus Blast
		Focus Punch
		Mud-Slap
		Rock Slide
		Rock Smash
		Sunny Day
		Vacuum Wave
Fire		Fire Blast
		Flamethrower
		Heat Wave
		Mud-Slap
		Overheat
		Rock Smash
		Solarbeam
		Sunny Day
		Will-o-wisp
Flying		Double-edge
		Sunny Day
		Swift
Ghost		Dream Eater
		Ominous Wind
		Pain Split
		Psych Up
		Rain Dance
		Shadow Ball
		Sucker Punch
		Sunny Day
		Trick
		Will-o-wisp
Grass		Energy Ball
		Giga Drain
		Grass Knot
		Seed Bomb
		Solarbeam
		Swords Dance
		Synthesis
Ground		Body Slam
		Double-edge
		Earth Power
		Earthquake
		Mud-Slap
		Rock Slide
		Rock Smash
		Sandstorm
		Stone Edge
Ice		Avalanche
		Blizzard
		Double-edge
		Hail
		Ice Beam
		Icy Wind
		Rain Dance
Normal		Double-edge
		Rain Dance
		Sunny Day
Poison		Sludge Bomb
Psychic		Dream Eater
		Grass Knot
		Light Screen
		Psych Up
		Psychic
		Rain Dance
		Sunny Day
		Trick
		Zen Headbutt
Rock		Ancientpower
		Double-edge
		Earth Power
		Mud-Slap
		Rock Polish
		Rock Slide
		Rock Smash
		Sandstorm
		Stealth Rock
		Stone Edge
Steel		Flash Cannon
		Iron Defense
		Sunny Day
Water		Blizzard
		Hail
		Ice Beam
		Icy Wind
		Rain Dance
		Surf
		Water Pulse
Code:
Blizzard		Ice Beam
Brave Bird		Aerial Ace
Close Combat		Brick Break
		Bulk Up
		Earthquake
		Rock Slide
		Stone Edge
Cross Chop		Brick Break
		Earthquake
		Focus Blast
		Focus Punch
		Rock Slide
		ThunderPunch
Crunch		Roar
Discharge		Charge Beam
		Signal Beam
		Thunder
		Thunder Wave
		Thunderbolt
Draco Meteor		Aerial Ace
		Dragon Claw
		Dragon Pulse
		Earthquake
		Outrage
Dragon Claw		Aerial Ace
		Dragon Pulse
		Earthquake
		Roar
Dragon Pulse		Roar
Dragon Rush		Body Slam
		Dragon Pulse
		Earthquake
		Fire Blast
		Flamethrower
		Outrage
		Roar
Dynamicpunch		Body Slam
		Brick Break
		Counter
		Focus Blast
		Focus Punch
Fire Blast		Flamethrower
Flamethrower		Fire Blast
Flare Blitz		Fire Blast
		Flamethrower
		Heat Wave
		Overheat
		Will-o-wisp
Focus Blast		Brick Break
		Focus Punch
Focus Punch		Brick Break
		Focus Blast
Hydro Pump		Blizzard
		Ice Beam
		Surf
		Waterfall
Ice Beam		Blizzard
Lava Plume		Earthquake
		Fire Blast
		Flamethrower
		Heat Wave
		Overheat
		Rock Slide
		Will-o-wisp
Leaf Storm		Energy Ball
		Giga Drain
		Grass Knot
		Leech Seed
		Seed Bomb
		Swords Dance
Muddy Water		Surf
Outrage		Earthquake
Overheat		Flamethrower
Stone Edge		Earthquake
		Rock Slide
Surf		Ice Beam
Thunder		Thunderbolt
Thunderbolt		Thunder
Waterfall		Blizzard
		Ice Beam
		Surf
X-Scissor		Swords Dance
---------------

Yeah.
 
I can't do what Doug did in the 4th Gen, running through the databases and working out the percentages of Pokemon with each move or type to also have xyz other move, but at least I can do this manually and logically. Probably.
What's the issue here? Is it getting the data out of the databases, or is it the analysis that you have trouble with?

I have no idea how to scrape a database, but if you can give me an Excel or .csv file with all the data in there somewhere, I can probably do the analysis you need.

EDIT@Rising Dusk: Boo. That's not the answer I wanted ;(
 
Most of the stuff in the article doesn't even need to be rewritten. Don't go for total remake of the article here, just go for updating it to BW standards and with our PR results. I think a total rewrite is a bit of a waste of time since the current article is pretty damned good.

Since the stat and movepool limits stage is being pretty much gutted and the VGM system is being used as reference and not as a limit now, you'll want to gut the Movepool Restrictions section. Replace it with a "Movepool Considerations" section or something and explain in it how the VGM count will be used by the TL to gauge the overpoweredness of a movepool and stuff like that.

You'll want to keep the VGM list, of course, but with the addition of BW moves. Don't just add what you think is best, though, list in a post in this thread what your proposed changes there are so we can discuss it. I'm not actually sure if the Equivalent Move list is relevant anymore since we're not technically limiting movepool sizes, but I think it is a good reference that you should update anyway.

The BSR-Movepool section can be removed entirely. I'd like to see the Type-Move and Move-Move sections stay for reference purposes, and updated if you can find any new moves that became T-Ms/M-Ms in the generation shift just by eyeballing it. Explain that these aren't requirements, though, but emphasize how following them are absurdly relevant to creating a legitimate Game Freak-looking movepool.
smallvizier said:
What's the issue here? Is it getting the data out of the databases, or is it the analysis that you have trouble with?
I've bolded the hard part. We don't have usage stats for the Smogon server, so we have no data to go through for move usage.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Starting with VGM lists. I'd like to get this finished before moving on.

Okay so here's what I was thinking.

New 5th Gen VGMs:

Code:
Acid Bomb
Acrobat
Afro Break
Assist Power
Body Purge
Butterfly Dance
Claw Sharpen
Clear Smog
Coil
Cotton Guard
Dragon Tail
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Electra Ball
Gear Change
Heat Stamp
Heavy Bomber
Horn Leech
Hurricane
Ice Breath
Icicle Drop
Mountain Storm
Night Burst
Nitro Charge
Overhead Throw
Psycho Shock
Razor Shell
Scald
Shell Break
Sludge Wave
Tail Slap
Trickery
Volt Change
Wild Charge
Work Up
Legendary Exclusive Moves:

Code:
Aeroblast
Ancient Song
Blaze Judgement
Blue Flame
Cold Flare
Cross Flame
Cross Thunder
Crush Grip
Dark Void
Doom Desire
Freeze Bolt
Frozen World
Heart Swap
Judgement
Lightning Strike
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Psycho Boost
Psycho Break
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Sacred Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Sword of Mystery
Techno Buster
V-Generate
VGMs when the CAP has the ability Technician:

Code:
Aerial Ace
Air Cutter
Ancientpower
Ankle Sweep
Bark Out
Bite
Bug Bite
Chatter
Confusion
Dragonbreath
Electra Net
Gear Saucer
Grass Oath
Faint
Fire Oath
Flame Charge
Flame Wheel
Force Palm
Heart Stamp
Hex
Icy Wind
Karate Chop
Knock Down
Level Ground
Magical Leaf
Magnet Bomb
Metal Claw
Mud Shot
Needle Arm
Ominous Wind
Pluck
Poison Fang
Poison Tail
Razor Leaf
Rolling Kick
Rock Throw
Rock Tomb
Shadow Punch
Shock Wave
Silver Wind
Sky Drop
Spark
Swift
Wake-Up Slap
Water Oath
Water Pulse
Wing Attack
VGMs when the CAP has the ability No Guard or Compoundeyes:

Code:
Dynamicpunch
Grasswhistle
Gunk Shot
Iron Tail
Mega Kick
Purgatory
Sing
Supersonic
Zap Cannon
Previous-Gen moves that are now VGMs:

Code:
Jump Kick
Nature Power
Amnesia
Growth
Thrash
Petal Dance
Drain Punch
Bone Rush
Bullet Seed
Icicle Spear
Rock Blast
Previous-Gen VGMs that aren't VGMs any more:

Code:
Aqua Ring
Hyper Beam
Feel free to critique these lists, the more the better. All input is appreciated.

Points I'm not particularly sure about:

- I've separated VGMs that are only worth using when a particular ability is required to make them worth using. While this makes for a more informative and less complicated spread of information, it does add another level of subjectivity. Thoughts?
- Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, Rock Blast. I currently have them placed as VGMs if the Pokemon in question has the ability Skill Link. Do these deserve a status as full VGMs?
- Encore - severely nerfed over the generation gap, and not really much use any more. Is it worth still keeping this as a VGM?
- Aqua Ring, Gravity, Refresh - typically frowned upon as competitive moves, pretty rare and low reward for use. Still worth it as VGMs?
- Aurora Beam, Power Gem (+ possibly others) - supposing the CAP in question does not have Ice Beam/lolPaleo Wave respectively, these are perfectly usable alternatives for a specific purpose. Is it worth listing these as VGMs when they can have situational use in theory? (this was the reasoning behind the use of Spark on Luxray and whatever)

Will come up with a complete VGM list once all the necessary details have been agreed upon.
 
I wouldn't bump up Aurora Beam. Really there shouldn't be any attacks under 75 BP, or you might as well just run HP (ie the move is pointless and not VG). I guess Power Gem could be an exception since it could be the only good option for a STAB special move, but still that's pretty unlikely. For the same reason Flame Burst probably shouldn't be a VGM (its only 70 BP).

Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, and Rock Blast are also great with Technician (see DW Breloom), so maybe they warrant a mention there?

I think Encore is still decent, though its certainly not as good, not sure where it should go.

Aqua Ring shouldn't be a VGM, though Gravity is questionable. Refresh does have some use (CM Recover Refresh Latias), so it might be worth VGM status.

I think Submersion is a little questionable. It sounds cool, but has anyone ever really used it to any success?

Finally: Should Hypnosis go into No Guard/Compound Eyes (only 60 Acc)? Also, Glare is quite good now, with 90 Acc and normal typing.
 
Glare was already a VGM. Also, as a side note, I'm not really digging keeping reference lists of everything that's a VGM under X condition, simply because it's very unwieldy. You get lists for CompouneEyes, No Guard, Technician, Skill Link, Serene Grace, Sheer Force, Mischievous Heart, and at least a half-dozen other abilities. This is insane to have lists for, and really not that useful. It's pretty easy to eyeball it and say "Hey, this move is pretty good with X ability, it should be a VGM." The TL will make mentions of this in the movepool stage based on the ability, so it's not an issue I think.

Encore and Gravity should still be VGMs, I'd hazard. Encore's not as good, but not bad, and still sees use on Monmen and Erufuun. Gravity is kind of gimmicky, but hasn't gotten any worse (and now applies to more moves and has better distribution), so it should be kept a VGM. Aqua Ring and Hyper Beam can go, that's fine, and Refresh still has some marginal uses so I think it should stay. Aurora Beam is terrible and so is Power Gem. I say ditch them. Giga Drain and Drain Punch should both be VGMs now thanks to their power boost and excellent secondary effect. Lastly, I think the Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Icicle Spear trio should be VGMs regardless. There is a very good probability of hitting at least 3 times, which is 75BP, and the accuracy boost to them all makes them very reliable. I may have some more comments at a later time after thinking a bit more.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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I'm with Dusk on the eyeballing of movepools.

Incidentallly I do think we should keep an updated total moves metric to keep movepools in check, but be more lenient on what qualifies as a VGM. If we have a Dark-type physical sweeper with poor SA, should Shadow Ball really be a VGM considering it has the same exact SE coverage and operates off a weak SpA stat instead?
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Summary of changes:

- Flame Burst, Submersion, Power Gem, and Aurora Beam are no longer VGMs.

- Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, Rock Blast, Bone Rush, and Tail Slap are now VGMs.

- Relating to the above point, there really isn't any need for a Skill Link VGM section when it's down to Pin Missile, so that's gone too.

I'm not really digging keeping reference lists of everything that's a VGM under X condition, simply because it's very unwieldy. You get lists for CompoundEyes, No Guard, Technician, Skill Link, Serene Grace, Sheer Force, Mischievous Heart, and at least a half-dozen other abilities. This is insane to have lists for, and really not that useful. It's pretty easy to eyeball it and say "Hey, this move is pretty good with X ability, it should be a VGM." The TL will make mentions of this in the movepool stage based on the ability, so it's not an issue I think.
If I could just make a point, I hardly think that any of the abilities you have listed besides the ones I already created lists for have any bearing on VGMs whatsoever. Serene Grace doesn't, off the top of my head, make any moves into VGMs that weren't already, and these alternative lists are meant for moves that are only VGMs under that one specific condition - otherwise we could be listing a great deal more moves than we actually need to. I only suggested this because I felt that it seemed a better way of organising the data than the system of asterisks that was used before.

Regardless, it seems prudent to have a list of moves that do become VGMs under certain conditions, especially if there are a lot of them, as that way the TL doesn't have to do his own research to work out which moves now become VGMs or whatever. It just seems helpful for that particular situation, and would be good to have as a reference. Especially for Technician - there are an awful lot of moves to eyeball there.

I agree with you in principle; that's why I've tried to limit the number of these lists to the minimum possible. I just think they're useful as a reference, but if you don't think so I can take them out, I guess.

I'm with Dusk on the eyeballing of movepools.

Incidentally I do think we should keep an updated total moves metric to keep movepools in check, but be more lenient on what qualifies as a VGM. If we have a Dark-type physical sweeper with poor SA, should Shadow Ball really be a VGM considering it has the same exact SE coverage and operates off a weak SpA stat instead?
How would this metric operate? Would we just leave it to TL discretion to set the (flexible) limits, or would we have a table where the limits are set? We can't really do another BSR-VGM table like last generation (at least not right now), so I'd imagine this would have to be either based on community input or executive decision.

More thoughts are appreciated.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Serene Grace doesn't, off the top of my head, make any moves into VGMs that weren't already
Bite and moves like it are definite options over other moves like Crunch on a Pokemon with Serene Grace.
bugmaniacbob said:
I only suggested this because I felt that it seemed a better way of organising the data than the system of asterisks that was used before.
Single asterisks were used to denote signature moves that are automatically VGMs and always disallowed unless specifically allowed by the TL. The double asterisk is only used once and only for Curse, which is a very special case; it's only a VGM when not used on a Ghost-type Pokemon. Those asterisks will need to be in the updated page regardless of what lists you want to add.
bugmaniacbob said:
How would this metric operate? Would we just leave it to TL discretion to set the (flexible) limits, or would we have a table where the limits are set? We can't really do another BSR-VGM table like last generation (at least not right now), so I'd imagine this would have to be either based on community input or executive decision.
It's an interesting position, for sure. I don't think the TL would really set limits, but as the movepools get submitted, the TL would make comments on the movepools like "This feels like it has too much diversity" or "This is a bit barren, you can spice it up". I mean, the TL chooses the slate anyway, so he has the ability to guide development in that manner. He wouldn't have to (and honestly shouldn't) post limits; I think instead the TL should shoot for a ballpark estimate and give movepool designers a bit of freedom to breath and work.
Deck Knight said:
Incidentallly I do think we should keep an updated total moves metric to keep movepools in check, but be more lenient on what qualifies as a VGM.
We could use the old 'firm limits' as guidelines now. The numbers actually aren't too off for the new generation, and since they aren't hard limits anymore anyway, there'd be no issue.
 
I'd just like to mention that Heart Swap is a legendary-exclusive move (despite being on Krilowatt) as seen on here, and that you don't have it on your list.

Good work otherwise.
 
By the way, this has been moved into high priority so that we finish all of this well before the movepool stage of the CAP. Preferably, we can finish this before the concept stage ends so as to not create ambiguities in the process for people thinking up stat spreads. (Having a general idea for the size and content of a movepool is important in creating a solid stat spread)
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Alright, (almost) everything has been done. Just need any critiques or last-minute finds. Oh, and the links in the first two sections need to be sorted out as well if they are to be included.

However, I haven't done the last section yet, for the reason that I honestly don't know how I'm going to go about doing it. Even if I had a database with all Pokemon data on it, I don't have the necessary programming knowledge to write a program like Doug's one to determine Type-Move and Move-Move combinations. While I am fully prepared to do the whole thing manually if I have to, I certainly won't be able to get it done by the movepool stage, let alone the concept stage.

Personally I don't feel that that section is entirely necessary at present, as it was mostly about quelling bloated CAP movepools, which is not a major issue at the moment, since we are trying to be more liberal. I still think that the introduction of these combinations was a significant step forward, but unless a programmer is willing to extract the data for me, I can't really do anything about it.

Sorry guys.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Alright, (almost) everything has been done. Just need any critiques or last-minute finds.
Excellent work.
bugmaniacbob said:
However, I haven't done the last section yet, for the reason that I honestly don't know how I'm going to go about doing it. Even if I had a database with all Pokemon data on it, I don't have the necessary programming knowledge to write a program like Doug's one to determine Type-Move and Move-Move combinations. While I am fully prepared to do the whole thing manually if I have to, I certainly won't be able to get it done by the movepool stage, let alone the concept stage.

Personally I don't feel that that section is entirely necessary at present, as it was mostly about quelling bloated CAP movepools, which is not a major issue at the moment, since we are trying to be more liberal. I still think that the introduction of these combinations was a significant step forward, but unless a programmer is willing to extract the data for me, I can't really do anything about it.
It's no issue at all. We don't have the stats with which to even extract the data, hah, so nothing can really be done. We could do sorts on database data from Veekun, but it's not a bit deal. The DPP T-M and M-M tables properly cover all of the really important stuff, and we should carry them over for BW so that we have some measure of what each type and move brings to the table in terms of added moves. They won't be strictly adhered to, but are an amazing reference for movepool designers. The quality of movepool in Voodoom, for instance, was greatly improved by those lists.
 
For some reason it seems like the VGM list for No Guard / Compoundeyes should be bigger, but that may be just me.

*Edit*

Glare was already a VGM. Also, as a side note, I'm not really digging keeping reference lists of everything that's a VGM under X condition, simply because it's very unwieldy. You get lists for CompouneEyes, No Guard, Technician, Skill Link, Serene Grace, Sheer Force, Mischievous Heart, and at least a half-dozen other abilities. This is insane to have lists for, and really not that useful. It's pretty easy to eyeball it and say "Hey, this move is pretty good with X ability, it should be a VGM." The TL will make mentions of this in the movepool stage based on the ability, so it's not an issue I think.
Never mind then. That would make much more sense because otherwise, there would be a whole bunch of moves to throw into lists such as that one. Most everything at 75% or less (including the OHKO moves) which wouldn't make much sense.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Alright then. Everything should be done now, unless anybody has anything to add.

Also:

For some reason it seems like the VGM list for No Guard / Compoundeyes should be bigger, but that may be just me.

...

Never mind then. That would make much more sense because otherwise, there would be a whole bunch of moves to throw into lists such as that one. Most everything at 75% or less (including the OHKO moves) which wouldn't make much sense.
Felt compelled to respond to this, even if that list is no longer relevant. The Compoundeyes / No Guard VGM list only listed moves that weren't VGMs unless the CAP in question had one of those specific abilities. Hence, Focus Blast, Hypnosis and such other moves wouldn't be on the list, and this is why the list is so short, despite the number of moves that have low accuracy.

And for the record, OHKO moves are illegal anyway so wouldn't matter...
 
Hypnosis without its fairly useful DP accuracy is only worthy of being a CompoundEyes VGM. 60 accuracy sleep is barely any better than 55 accuracy sleep, and very different from base 75 accuracy sleep. I would move Hypnosis out of the main list of "universal VGMs" and put it into the category of accuracy-boosted attack VGMs. Is there any notable Gen V set that uses Hypnosis?
 
Alright then. Everything should be done now, unless anybody has anything to add.

Also:



Felt compelled to respond to this, even if that list is no longer relevant. The Compoundeyes / No Guard VGM list only listed moves that weren't VGMs unless the CAP in question had one of those specific abilities. Hence, Focus Blast, Hypnosis and such other moves wouldn't be on the list, and this is why the list is so short, despite the number of moves that have low accuracy.

And for the record, OHKO moves are illegal anyway so wouldn't matter...
I need to learn to not reuse words and phrases in single sentences.

Anyways, I meant adding a whole bunch of moves into the list wouldn't make much sense. Rising_Dusk's statement was absolutely true.
 
Isn't Calm mind a better option than Quiver Dance (i'm guessing that's what Butterfly dance is called) in a trick room team and in stuff with thing like Gyro Ball, i'm saying this because the Speed could make your team work against you, following the same logic then Bulk Up > Curse (in not ghosts)
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
I would certainly not say that Fly is strictly better than Bounce. Bounce has a hefty chance to paralyze, which is a clear advantage over Fly.
 
Alright, I deserve a medal for HTMLing that. Anyway, it's on-site. Keep in mind that none of the hyperlinks in the tables will work until Doug updates the website for BW, so don't be alarmed. I also grammar checked it while HTMLing it, so it's got its necessary dosage of GP.

Good job and thanks for updating this, BMB. We're finally ready for the movepool stage of CAP1, now! ;)
 
Impressive work, but don't the type-move and move-move restrictions also need updating for BW? Also, are there any new TMs that are like Toxic and Return, ie, everything gets them?
 

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