Gen 8 Rest Core Bulky Offence

[Iodyne]

Hello all,

I haven't really had much of a presence on the forums here at all, except my recent post in the Melmetal suspect thread, which you can read here, but I figured with generation eight coming to a close that I would share my main team for people to use if they so desire. I've been using this version of the team since the DarkShifu ban, very similar variations of it since at least the release of Crown Tundra, and the star, , for the entirety of Sword & Shield. (Of course I used him in earlier gens, but not as commonly; I really think this is the best he's been since at least gen 3.) I will detail more of how the team was formulated and optimizations made along the way further down in this post.

One thing before we begin. I just wanted to provide the resources I use when making these comparisons and when teambuilding in general.

Teambuilding Resources

https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/
We all know about the calc. Use this to see where to put the last few EVs.

https://www.porydex.com/stats/2022-10/gen-8-ou/1825
Porydex is an excellent visualization of the Smogon raw usage data, and additionally includes over-time graphs and pokémon/move data. A note about Porydex: unfortunately Smogon doesn't follow IV usage, so when Porydex lists a real stat value such as Relaxed , it doesn't take into consideration the stat drop from 0 IV investment, and will list the real speed as 68 instead of 40. You can partially assume from the nature, but some subtleties are lost. Keep in mind some small amounts of data that are in the raw text may not be in Porydex and vice-versa. Personally, I don't recommend using Porydex (or the Smogon analyses) to copy-paste sets, but rather to use as a guide or reference.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-speed-tiers.3672175/
While a bit outdated and can have values that are not common or lack some that are, this is a quick and easy way to check out the real speed values of most mons in the meta. Even now it can be useful if used in conjunction with Porydex.

https://marriland.com/tools/team-builder/en/
Most teambuilders have some strengths and some drawbacks, and I certainly don't love this one, but the format for showing defencive (and offencive) coverage is the most clean and straightforward. I find it to be the most helpful in this regard; synergistic typing is very important when building a team from a defencive core. It's easy to see why some cores are so good. Take a look at the resistance chart for + for example.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/magic-number-of-hp.3456308/
There are also some general tips to follow in terms of EV investing and whatnot. This post details most of the pertinent HP options. Of course also when running a non-Physical attacker, make sure to minimize IVs in attack to reduce Foul Play damage. Reducing HP IVs to below a tens threshold reduces LO damage. Particular IV management may be necessary on ultra beasts. Putting the last 4 or 8 EVs into speed even on a slow mon is a great option to avoid speed ties.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/technical-projects.107/
This is a really cool part of the forums. There are lots of cool websites or plugins here, from improved tooltips and in-battle AI prediction to teambuilders and moveset scalpers. (This is where Pokepaste and Porydex were born!)

With that out of the way I'll get right to it.
(I originally had this at the end but had some recommendations to paste this first for the attention-deficit readers amongst you. If you wanted a tl;dr you could always have just scrolled to the bottom.)

The team:


https://pokepast.es/8519d094f36244e3

Importable

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 248 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 232 Atk / 132 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 136 HP / 4 Def / 220 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane
- Defog

The team is built off of a defencive core; with Snorlax as the a special tank, and Suicune the physical one.
Melmetal is the mixed defence rounder who offencively supports Snorlax and Suicune.
Victini is the wallbreaker, with pivoting and disrupting capability.
Landorus-Therian is primarily for speed control and type immunities, but also has hard-hitting capability and like Victini, pivot and disruptor roles. Zapdos provides hazard removal, weather control, pivot action, and general coverage/defense for common threats/counters to the rest of the team.




On Snorlax:

⠀

⠀ Immunity | Thick Fat | Gluttony ⠀ 160 HP ⠀ 110 Atk ⠀ 65 Def ⠀ 65 SpA ⠀ 110 SpD ⠀ 30 Spe ⠀ 540 BST

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash

Defencive Merits

Bulk

Among the options pre-DLC, had the third-highest HP stat of 160 (after (190) and (170), respectively), and a respectable Special Defence of 110. While there are quite a few mons with higher SpD, many are more offensive mons that just happen to have natural defence. With this in mind, if you wanted a special tank the main options were the following (sorted by descending SpD):


The issue still with a good chunk of these is that HP matters just as much when determining bulk. , , , , and all have nearly half the invested HP as , and many others don't have great typings to tank common special attacks. Many people don't consciously realize that one of the reasons is so good at being a special tank is its typing (having only 1 weakness, to a mostly

type no less, and an immunity to a common

type). Not having weaknesses to common special-attacking types such as

or

for example is a huge asset in a special tank. Taking these considerations into account, the only real options pre-DLC to emulate on one's team was , , , and (the latter only really because of perpetual Eviolite in the absence of Knock Off, but even then often threatened it). When calculating the special bulk for these mons (real HP * real SpD), comes out on top with 183k, followed by and at 155k, and at 159k (106k without Eviolite). There's a reason was so high (B+) in the viability rankings pre-DLC. After was made available with Isle of Armor, quickly fell out of favour but still maintained a presence at the bottom of the tier list. And with the release of Crown Tundra, was forgotten almost entirely. While I don't think I need to discuss the reasons is so useful as a special wall, I don't think 's disposal was one of much thought. Those who used just did so in interim until returned. A lot of people are unfamiliar with or have forgotten just how defensive can be as well. In fact, aside from the similarly-bulked legendaries such as , , and , is the third most specially-bulky mon out of all 905 pokémon after / and of all things. So really is the alternative, even now after the DLCs. Especially, when considering and don't typically invest in SpD, 's (invested) bulk at 183k is larger than 's (Knock-ed Off) at 174k and just 20% shy of 's at 220k. Perhaps more intriguingly, 's uninvested physical bulk, while somewhat low at 87k, is just a tad smaller than a fully invested at 93k.

Why Snorlax Over Blissey

In short, can take physical hits just as well (or perhaps poorly) as and can respectably compete on-par with in terms of special bulk. The real differentiating factors are their abilities, movesets, and offensive capabilities. As for their abilities, I argue that Thick Fat actually gives a significant edge when it comes to its purely defensive prowess when compared to . On the same note as my aforementioned point on not wanting weaknesses to

,

, and other historically special types as an intended special tank, actually resisting both

and

is a huge asset. There is no better answer to a sun team than . To quote Storm Zone in a conversation we had, "sun auto loses to lax." While I wouldn't go so far as to say that the entirety of sun teams are countered by a single , it is indeed the best defence against

attacks apart from Flash Fire , or maybe if you want to try something off-meta. The issue with is its additional weaknesses, particularly to ground; has to worry about an Earth Power from and opposing , not to mention and running around with

moves too. Now I'm not trying to argue that is better than either; certainly not in a general sense. At least against specific threats like these, however, does shine brighter. I'm sure quite a few of you are familiar with the Pinkacross x Storm Zone sun team they posted a few months ago; the very first reply in the thread is as follows:

Im here to answer some FAQ's for people playing against this team as someone who got scorched by it.

Q: How do you switch into tran under sun?
A: Thats the funny part, you don't. Gimmie your points :)

and with that, concludes my FAQ.

Heatran vs. Blissey

And this is an issue I have with . Whether Sun-boosted, Specs, or Flash-Fire'd-Up (or even worse, some combination thereof), a full-power or near-full-power Eruption from does massive damage. A similar issue exists with Solar Power but I won't quote calcs for that because it is far less ubiquitous (though equally dangerous in an offensive sense) and the comparison between and therein is similar. Let's take a look at some defencive calculations.

Taking a look at one of the more difficult scenarios, if two of 's buffs are active, we can see even a timid Eruption easily 2HKOs :
-> +1 252 ⠀SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 424-499 (59.3 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-> ⠀ ⠀252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 310-366 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

So you can switch into to tank a hit but then what? You just have to sack and switch to a check. At this point your opponent will simply switch to their tank or sack a mon and eventually pivot back into to go in to take out another mon. This is how all teams with dedicated breakers work, and while typically there exists at least one hard or semi-hard (haha ) counter to every breaker, offensive sees surprisingly few. If the single bulkiest pokémon in the dex can't wall then who can? Notice even if just one of Modest 's buffs is active, say just Sun, it still has the potentiality to 2HKO , and Soft-Boiled spam can only go so far. Granted if runs Timid, Soft-Boiled spam is pretty much the only reliable way to stall out sun/PP, but this just provides the opponent with an easy switch to some other mon.

Comparison of Roles between Blissey and Snorlax

This brings me to another point: is an extremely passive mon; the only offensive capability possesses in the meta is Seismic Toss. Not only does this mean can't hit ghost types, like , , , and historically the infamous , providing these mons the opportunity to set up and potentially sweep, but even back in the case of , takes 4-5 Seismic Tosses to kill it. Not that it even has the chance to; the lack of offensive capability forces to just try to just sit and stall out or she is forced to switch into an offensive check. Granted when facing balance teams, Teleport can be a great pivoting asset, but against the increasingly prevalent hyper offence, is just dead weight on a team. Perhaps it is for this reason that usage is at an all-time low for this generation. Between the power creep introduced with the ultra beasts and the speed creep in Sword and Shield, the meta is progressing further away from balance and more toward bulky and hyper offence. I believe the true neutral now is bulky offence, and that it will continue to remain that way as we move into generation nine. This RMT is bulky offence, and I will detail as many of the benefits of it as I can in this thread. First we have to finish with .

and do serve different purposes. is inherently a cleric, a pivot, and a staller. has access to moves like Soft-Boiled, Wish, Teleport (not both at once but nonetheless), Stealth Rock, Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, and Thunder Wave, mainly. So long as other team members stay alive, either through recovery, Wish, and/or Regenerator, can also stay healthy through her ability Natural Cure. It can certainly be annoying but again this only really works on stall teams. can easily be countered if Taunted and/or trapped (can't heal, can't use Natural Cure), and she never runs shed shell unlike . Even if not offensive, can take down in this way too.

I'm sure by now it's gotten a tad boring; obviously we all understand what 's (decreasing) role in the meta is. So let's move on to why is better. I've already mentioned their surprisingly similar bulk. But of course, is not a cleric; is not an (instant) staller. It can certainly be a pivot, but without Teleport obviously not as smoothly as the one can be. The point of isn't to be a one-for-one replacement for , the point of is to be an offensive threat with just as much (if not more) natural bulk compared to . To take as many of the hits, while dishing out infinitely more as well.

Heatran vs. Snorlax

If we take a look back to the example of offensive , here are the same calcs when is defending:
-> +1 252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Snorlax in Sun: 205-243 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-> ⠀ ⠀252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Snorlax in Sun: 136-162 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers

A double-boosted Eruption from modest does 2/3 the damage to as timid does to , and singularly-boosted, the small chance to straight up 2HKO is now an even smaller chance to 4HKO . You can see here the big difference Thick Fat makes for a special tank.
Yes, I did consider Leftovers on for the latter calc and not for . runs lefties only about 28% of the time, and then has to deal with hazards that'll keep it in the 2HKO range. Sure not all sets run lefties but this one does, and rocks only just almost puts it into guaranteed 4HKO, a very big difference. If you want to run boots on be my guest, but all calcs here will consider Leftovers on and Heavy-Duty Boots on .

Sun/Fire vs. Snorlax

While on the topic of Sun and

I want to take a look at a few mons; , , and :
https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/bsy5w
https://pastebin.com/3qn13UQZ

Other Special Threats vs. Snorlax

I also want to talk about some other, general Special threats (i.e. outside the context of Sun). Here are most of the biggest Special-Attacking threats in the meta (sorted by descending SpA):

And here are the defencive calculations (you can skip over these if you'd like):
https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/3tmnf
https://pastebin.com/zNAk4FMC

I think it's pretty clear that while tanking

and

, takes pretty much 40% less damage than . Additionally, in terms of

attacks, Thick Fat still applies, and renders 's Defence practically double that of 's while maintaining it's Special bulk.

Now obviously some mons here have pretty much the same match-up since obviously they don't all proc Thick Fat.

hits will do about 20% more as I mentioned, and

about 7% more, but as you'll see (especially when we get to the offencive calcs, counters/checks most of these mons just as well as if not better than . Also draining moves may deal a bit less damage to but because of her increased HP stat the opponent will also heal more (about 13–14% more with

draining moves, and about 27–28% more with

.) Keep in mind that for to come in and Teleport-pivot into your attacker, takes 2 hits before you start attacking (and the opponent can just switch out), whereas with you can attack immediately and often to much unexpectedness of your opponent. As I say, everyone sleeps on .

That concludes all the defencive calcs. I know it's a lot but I wanted to familiarize people with how bulky really can be. Obviously, while Thick Fat is amazing (especially with many the fire threats), does have that bit of extra bulk; in terms of general bulk alone of course will come out on top. But that's not the whole story; I want you to now look at some of the offencive calcs. I'll try to keep the commentary to a minimum as I think the calcs speak for themselves.

Offencive Merits

Let's talk offencive options now. Firstly, has deceptively good natural stats. Obviously we already talked about 's typing, ability, and bulk, but his 110 Atk is really solid. Some other base 110 Atk mons include , , , , and . Granted this set doesn't invest in Atk but nonetheless. 's uninvested real Atk stat comes out to 256 (or 257 if you put the last 4 EVs into it). It's essentially equivalent to a neutral nature invested base 80 Atk, like Jolly .

Of course this hardly makes a breaker but it does allows him to get quite a decent amount of chip off on mons; Body Slam is a solid 85 BP, then with stab up to nearly 130 (127.5) BP, plus a 30% chance to paralyze is real nice. You could liken it to Scald, or Hurricane / Focus Blast misses. Think of how often that happens!

Move Choices

So that's one move. Of course we can't have a mon as part of a defensive core without recovery. So we add Rest. I know a lot of people hate on Rest but it's absolutely viable, especially since it heals status too. You just need to know when to use it (it's not brainlessly spammable like Recover/Soft-Boiled); you can only use it to recover HP and switch out for future tanking or stay in once you can guarantee the opponent can't 3HKO you.

65 base defence obviously isn't great; so we just go full classic and run CurseLax. It's tried and true and it really lets Rest work, covers the defense, and threatens with the attack. Consider all the Physical/Psyshock calcs above, or just your recollection of how fares, and reduce it by a third. That's just for one Curse; I don't need to explain how it works of course— it's ancient tech— but +1 attack brings into equivalent of 252 neutral 's attack stat. Or similarly, Body Slam from +1 does as much damage as an Icicle Crash from a max Attack Adamant and a Sucker Punch from Life Orb . Also more damage than Plasma Fists from . These comparisons actually sound pretty ridiculous on paper; I've used for years now and it still seems unbelievable.

Fourth Move

So that accounts for 3 moves: Curse, Rest, & Body Slam. As for the last move some people might be tempted to go Sleep Talk but running it on a Rest user is actually pretty bad. First of all, you have to deal with the randomness of move selection and only have a 1/3 chance of actually hitting. Sure a Curse is always nice but not as they're chipping you and then you'll need to go right back to sleep after. Still it's more active just just being asleep for two turns; however, the real importance is the need for move coverage. Otherwise all the

pokémon that you sit on also sit on you and now you're no better than . Just because you can wall something doesn't mean you can counter it.

At this point the old-tech says to run Crunch, though some people have used Earthquake. Better than Crunch this generation is Darkest Lariat. This was nice early in the metagame when was running Bulk Up sets or when you came up against other boosting pokémon including other . Most people weren't familiar with the move and you could just sweep after boosting with to +6 and only taking a neutral hit from Brave Bird. A

move is real nice for quickly killing off

(and

) pokémon , but there are some other good options has at his disposal. I mentioned Earthquake, and for

match-ups its definitely nice, though I find that it's only really good for taking care of specifically and maybe

pokémon a bit more quickly. It's definitely a good option depending on one's team, and I have been playing around with it lately, but I think the best move that has been working for the past year or so (previously I was using Darkest Lariat) is actually Heat Crash. While it does basically nothing to , or for that matter, having

coverage for mons like , , and even is incredibly nice. Considering these 3 moves, allow me to show you the calcs. I'll start with the same match-ups as I listed for the defencive calcs, but then I'll include a few more niceties.

Seismic Toss Blissey Sucks

Consider that 's only attack is Seismic Toss; it can never, ever get less than a 3HKO, but often can need up to six hits depending on the opponents passive recovery. And then with any sort of active recovery or even just a

pokémon for that matter, is just hard-walled. (Just for a better understanding, the lowest real HP (typically uninvested) mons in the game above ZU (it's a similar situation with them but I'm not going to list redundancies) that can hit (non-

) or stay in on (non-

) and have no recovery are and . Yet still even there it takes 3 hits from Seismic Toss to kill. And everything with base uninvested base 80 HP down to invested base 49HP takes 4 hits before recovery of any kind. It is clear even with Seismic Toss, has virtually zero offensive presence. All Seismic Toss really is is a way to chip other stallers, but even then the opponents are really just PP-stalling . I have to wonder if as a cleric/pivot/support mon would be better off with some other status move in place of Seismic Toss. In my opinion Thunder Wave is one of 's best "offencive" moves right now, so if you're not running that already you probably should. Try replacing Seismic Toss and see how it goes.)

Offencive Calcs

Anyway, onto the bread and butter, 's offencive calculations:
(If you skipped over the defencive calcs and plan to skip these as well I don't blame you, but please don't come to any conclusions about before you actually read through it. In my opinion these are where really shines.)
https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/hswkq
https://pastebin.com/bj8CYEUd

Well that concludes all the calculations for . It's really quite surprising to those not in-the-know how disruptive can really be. Heat Crash's (and less so but also Earthquake's) ability to OHKO or nearly OHKO a lot of 's typical threats/walls/counters really helps makes him more viable.

Match-Ups

Checks/Counters/Walls

There are a few things to note that I didn't mention. Namely I should state the biggest checks/counters/walls for Snorlax.
As for checks, pretty much any maxed-out physical attacker. could very well live a hit and hit hard back but usually that isn't the best course of play and will switch out. If the attacker is

too, then assume can be OHKOd if you can't be bother to calc it. Even at +2 Def, Banded

attackers can likely take out a 70% HP .
Some mons include: , , , , , , , , , and , among others.
Aside from the maxed-out

physical attackers, once gets off 3 or so Curses he is easily capable of breaking through the rest of an opponents team. Unless the opponent wants to sack a mon and then trade, only tanks at this point can threaten him, and then they have to hope not to get or already be Paralyzed from Body Slam so they can use their own cheese, whether Haze, Unaware, Recover-spam, Flinch, stat boosting, or their own Status.
I think what likely comes to mind here are , , , , , and Iron Defense + Body Press mons like , , , and . And a few of these mons can be ignored if is running Earthquake, gets Para early on, or the opponent hard switches into a Body Slam.

Stalling

Also 1v1 against some stall mons like the Unaware users, can absolutely stall out. That's another thing to consider with Rest, instead of 16 PP, if you don't use Sleep Talk, Rest effectively becomes 48 PP since you stall 2 turns asleep. (It is for this reasons that CroCune is suboptimal, wasting a moveslot with Sleep Talk. And for that matter all RestTalkers are suboptimal when they could just run Rest + a different move.) Lets also not forget Rest heals 100% HP and cures status, preventing another filled moveslot or the need to switch to use Heal Bell.

Trick Room

Another neat benefit to CurseLax is the built in Trick Room control. I do put the remaining 4 EVs into speed as it has minimal effects in attack and I believe the same with defence. Yet outspeeding the other base 30s (/, , :Amoongus:, etc.) seems well worth-while. Now obviously with just 1 Curse now you're slower but after 2, you are already slower than pretty much everyone but negative nature, 0 IV and (at least 90% of don't even run -Spe because they want Atk boost.) So basically if the opponent uses Trick Room and you've get a Curse or two up you just win (check out the calcs).

Weight

The last quirk has is his insane weight. Obviously this is great for always getting high-power Heat Crashes but defensively it is nice too. Granted not too often do you go against something like that but it does happen. In one battle I had with Storm Zone, he tried to use his Heavy Slam on me and just shrugged it off.

While does have a decent number of threats, opponents should be weary to just hard switch in to them; 's Body Slam can do good damage to some of the less defensive threats (see near the end of the offensive calcs) and often get Paralysis. Would you switch your physical attacker into a Scald? Teleport is a good way around this but if has already gotten a Curse or two off even the teleport mon should be afraid of damage + Paralysis. I think that's just about everything.

On Suicune:

⠀

⠀ Pressure | Inner Focus ⠀ 100 HP ⠀ 75 Atk ⠀ 115 Def ⠀ 90 SpA ⠀ 115 SpD ⠀ 85 Spe ⠀ 580 BST

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 248 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Physical Bulk

So as I mentioned the core of this team is a special tank, , and a physical tank. What's more classic as a physical tank than a bulky water, and a pure water at that? ( and the need for fighting resistance these past two gens has ruined bulky waters and . I will never forgive and I hope he stays dead with the release of Scarlet and Violet.)

Anyway, Suicune probably has the best defencive stats of any bulky water. Great stats all around; it's physical bulk (real HP * real Def) is tied with for third highest of any water type (not including or ) at 146k. The second and first are and , respectively. Relatively, has a physical bulk of 138k, 135k, and 124k.
's special bulk is no joke either; again aside from legendaries ( and ), 's special bulk (also 146k) comes in third to (156k) then (151k) (in fact I used to run with Recover and Mirror Coat, good times). Granted, as its role as my physical tank, it's SpD will be uninvested, but even then it competes at 118k between max SpD (112k) and (123k). For reference that's only ~8% less bulky than max SpD (and not weak to

).

Considering the Team's Typing I

If we look at our core now, typing-wise we see both and resist

and

(good luck to them), and a la the core resists

and

. Oh and grants us a

immunity. It may be somewhat alarming that their weaknesses,

,

, and

are not covered by the other's resistances at all (for reference to what I mean, return to the + core I mentioned earlier). However, it turns out it's not quite necessary when pure stats are concerned. And simply not being weak to common special types and the same with and physical types is great. Besides, covering those few weaknesses can be delegated to the other team members.

EV Choices

starts off with base 85 Speed, which in terms of real stats is 206. If we take a look at the speed tiers, we can see what the 20 Speed EVs do. We outspeed Adamant and all of 's usage sets. We outspeed some and tie with others (perhaps alternative tech would see one extra point into Speed, though we don't usually stay in on ). We outspeed some and . The biggest thing here are and , but I admit the tech is somewhat old and arbitrary; however, we really don't need the EVs anywhere else.

240 HP EVs let reach 401 real HP. This means has to now hit 5 Seismic Tosses instead of 4. But additionally, during those 4 turns before would faint, Leftovers would have restored another 25%, making Seismic Toss a 6HKO. Combined with Pressure, has to use 10 of its 32 PP just before rests back up again and starts all over. If you are running near-max HP on a base 100 HP or higher mon, you should always consider going for 401. You can read more about ideal HP values in the link at the beginning of this post.

248 Defence is simple enough, max out defences with Bold. I was willing to take away the 4 EVs to bump speed. Feel free to take 4 EVs out of Speed and put it back into Defence.

Move Choices

Naturally Scald is God-tier, and a core would not be without recovery, thus Rest. With the theme of a Phys-boosting Special tank, having a Special-boosting Phys tank just makes sense. Lastly I made my opinion on Sleep Talk known, and so for a fourth move, ideally an attack that grants coverage, what is more classic of water types than their consistency in being able to use

moves. Icy Wind is cool tech but really unnecessary in this case, so Ice Beam for BP is more than fine (God do I wish non-

pokémon could learn Freeze-Dry...).

Match-Ups & Calcs

With that out of the way let's be quick and talk about the instances when sees the most action.
Obviously any 4x weaknesses to

or

, such as , , , and the other 4x

-weak

pokémon. Also . Of course regular 2x weaknesses are tempting but as a tank, can't just go full offence, so between that and one of 's move being

, we know we need to have good offensive coverage on the other team members.

Here are some back-and-forth calcs detailing the interactions I see in the most:
https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/mvgv4
https://pastebin.com/Dkh9CsVj

So again, isn't some crazy offencive pokemon and situationally isn't the most defencive either. will always take less damage from a

move than will just because of pure typing. But on the other hand can easily go up against . There's always a better pokémon for a certain match-up; even with the hard-counter is (by the way is super underrated). But being pure

allows it to have a greater number of good match-ups defencively. It can still pack a decent punch especially after a Calm Mind or two, and between Rest (heal, de-status, 3x PP when asleep) and Pressure is very capable of stallbreaking as well. 1v1 it can out-stall most other stallers in the meta including , , and both of the common sets, VinCune (Sub-Protect) and CroCune (RestTalk). The only real stall issue for the core are Leech Seed, multiple PP-stallers, and if the opponent gets lucky with getting Fully Paralyzed (doesn't use PP). Also high-PP moves like Haze or Spikes are annoying.

I will note instances later where it may be beneficial to use a different member to handle a threat despite whatever praise I've given or for certain match-ups. This will make sense after I finish introducing the team members. Speaking of, I told you 's chapter would be far shorter. Expect them to continue being as brief or more as we go on.

Considering the Team's Typing II or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying About the Perfect Core and Love Neutral Typing

As I noted earlier, a core is never perfect. In this case the core is weak to

,

, and

. Even in the case of the + core that I keep referencing, the keen-eyed will notice the neural coverage

(and

, for that matter) have over it.

too, but it's not as big of a deal. What's wrong with neutral on both? Well nothing really; the typing coverage + have is incredibly good, but when those few neutral types are major offencive presences in the meta, it's kind of an issue, insofar that you need to be aware of it. The number of times I've been able to sweep teams with a

type after I trade one of my mons for their single

pokémon is too often to not bring up. So in the case of + , they will definitely want a

type or a few

resists. And if there's only one, the player will need to make sure not to let said mon die too soon. Purely typing-wise you've certainly noticed that my core is significantly worse in this regard. And it's certainly true, but neither nor have any sort of recovery aside from Rest, but even if you're going to run Telepathy, you're not going to get much use out of those. (Rest actually sounds really neat, but Leech Seed + Protect is really good and much better for him.) Similarly, between and , those two resist every type. But doesn't really have time for recovery aside from Sub-spam, and a weakness to

doesn't really help him since he'd probably want to be physically defensive. And while has recovery, his weakness to

and U-Turn prevent him from going being physically defensive, while an

,

, and 4x

weakness prevent him from being a great Special tank either. There's a lot more to consider than just pure typing. Nonetheless, I need to consider all the lack of resistances in my core.

On Melmetal:

Considering the Team's Typing III

Because a core is never perfect, or because one of the pokémon might have already have been used, a third, mixed-defence pokémon is necessary. Typically you would want one that covers these weaknesses; however, covering the neutral types can be useful as well (and then delegating the remaining 3 pokémon to cover those core weaknesses). Since we were able to fit our "core" into two mons, this third one doesn't need to have recovery. It should have good natural bulk, and a good typing. If you go with this latter option, by far the best type is

for obvious reasons. Bulky Steel is immediately associated with .

⠀

⠀ Iron Fist ⠀ 135 HP ⠀ 143 Atk ⠀ 143 Def ⠀ 80 SpA ⠀ 65 SpD ⠀ 34 Spe ⠀ 600 BST

Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 232 Atk / 132 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

My Melmetal Suspect Post

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-12-monster-mash.3709234/post-9363283

Item Choice

has amazing stats; he has a high enough natural bulk to allow us to not invest EVs into HP or Def but rather put it into his already great Atk. Additionally, as great coverage moves that really allow 4-attack sets to shine. If we are running 4 attacks and not going pure offence (i.e. with Choice Band), then we can run Assault Vest, bumping up his SpD enough to constitute as a mixed defence pokémon. I've detailed my thoughts on Melmetal to a considerably detailed degree, and just why he is so useful in the post I made in the suspect thread last month, which I have linked above. I'll mention some of the major points here but considering this post is already long enough you can just go there. Please read it through if you aren't fully familiar with 's uses.

Merits

Essentially, provides the core with the punch they need. can live most hits and be a more useful option in securing damage. I'm not going to provide calcs for most of the remaining pokémon on the team, as the rest are all OU mons and people should either be familiar enough with them or have the ability to preform the calcs themselves. But just as an example, while can threaten with an Ice Beam (45.8-89.6%), even the most specially defencive that take two Ice Beams and then some get OHKOd by 's Ice Punch. is also a great option to threaten stall mons that shrug off 's and 's unboosted attacks, and if he can get a flinch or two off is capable of taking them out in 2 or 3 hits. Of course be weary of Rocky Helmet, 's bane without Protective Pads. Double Iron Bash is also incredibly useful for breaking through Substitute users while still dealing a good amount of damage with the second hit. doesn't have many counters that he can't break through in the optimal circumstances (i.e. if Rocky Helmet is Knock-ed Off, and he gets a flinch or two). And if you're willing to trade, many of 's checks can't actually OHKO him while he can them. The only things that can really OHKO are physical wallbreakers like Banded and Banded , or boosted special attackers like and Specs .

EV Choices

I already mentioned the item and near-max Atk EVs (232 EVs with nature gets the jump point from 416 to 418 real Atk). The SpD EVs are everything I had left after I allocated Speed. The Speed EVs allow to hit 140 real Spe. 131 speed is actually a "common" set that is run on ; so just a few points lets him outspeed quite a few other mons too. 140 Speed outspeeds pretty much all the stall mons save and the metal birds, but additionally (130), (136), min-Speed (125), and a few others. Just check out the "Speed Tiers" table I linked at the top. Most importantly though, 140 Speed allows to outspeed all Paralyzed mons below 280 Speed. This includes all neutral-nature base 90s and positive-nature base 77s (i.e. Timid ). It may be beneficial to take 1 or a few points out of SpD in order to outspeed Paralyzed and the positive-nature base 80s, respectively. The problem with adding to speed is knowing when to stop; its very easy to add 1, then 2 more for another mon, then 3 more and soon enough you've added 20 points and taken a lot away from bulk. But a single point or two should be fine. It may seem weird to invest around Paralysis but between Snorlax and another mon on the team it's definitely warranted. I don't have a Thunder Wave user but I really think people underutilize Paralysis + Bulky Offence. Plenty of people have run Sticky Web or Trick Room (those are less effective in my opinion) but not Paralysis strats.

Move Choices

As for 's moves it's pretty straightforward. DIB is a must, and Ice Punch is too helpful with and (and ) all around and 's Ice Beam isn't enough. Earthquake is good, though lately people have been running Superpower for . I already have Heat Crash for him on as well as other fire moves on the rest of my team, so I find Earthquake to edge it out for me. Thunder Punch is actually kind of meh just because it's not often you go against a

mon aside from and then it usually has Rocky Helmet. Though against rain teams it's nice, and also for making it really difficult for the opponent to switch in. So many times do I T-Punch or someone and then click EQ on their or Ice Punch as they switch in . Same thing with EQ into Ice Punch on the switch to or really any other

mon. It really depends on how many remaining mons are weaker to which move or if there's an obvious switch the opponent will make.

Opinion on Melmetal's Sets

Having the option to switch moves like that and play those games is something Banded could never do. Banded is just an easy way to click and get chip but can easily be countered. Prot Pads is definitely the best set as a fully offencive set (though the new item in Scarlet & Violet that shall not be named will be even better), but AV is right behind there. Lefties is just like Band or AV but without the stat boosts. Sure it can be annoying with Toxic and Protect but those kinds of strats are always subpar. That's enough for my little rant; you can read more in my suspect post if you want. Additionally that is also where I detail more checks/counters and the like.

Considering the Team's Typing IV

If we look at the team so far (on Marriland builder), it still has that

weakness. So we note that we'll need a

pokémon (or 3 resisting pokémon, but that doesn't work here, though Grassy Terrain tech would be super good for all the mons so far). We can also see the

weakness is bad, so all 3 of the remaining mons should resist it (or 1 resist + 1 immunity). And we have a

weakness, so we'll need a

pokémon. But then we add another

weakness, barring abilities. So we could look into abilities dual-typings.

Teambuilding Strategy

Typically when I build a team I go: defencive core of two (1 PhysDef, 1 SpDef), a bulky mixed defence mon w/ offence, a wallbreaker, and a speed control mon. Of course scattered in there are other necessities and balancing goals, like having 3

and 3

attackers (though there's some wiggle room), a pivot or two, a sweeper, antisweeper, cleric, etc. Here is a rough draft of said checklist I made for helping some newbies teambuild: https://www.checkli.com/checklists/view/635cf69984cda.
Obviously, no team will check every box on this list. Especially if you are running pure hyper offence or pure stall. If you check off the "cleric" box then you're more likely running balance than bulky offence. Most good teams should be able to check off 3/4 or so of the list, and the more you can the more solid the team will be. Also consider common meta threats and a general high amount of BST across the team, as of course you could check all these boxes out-of-context with ZU mons alone but likely wouldn't get you far.

OU ≠ Good

I am of the opinion that most players cannot learn well just by using the samples. A lot of people in the OU room have honestly terrible takes and are very gatekeepy of things they don't even really know themselves, especially as most of these people are in low- to mid-ladder. Even high-ladder players can look down upon people who don't use the absolutely most common set for a mon or what only they deem usable. It was because of this "toxicity" that for all of gens 6 and 7 (when I really came into the competitive scene) that I avoided the OverUsed room and abstained from using OU pokémon entirely. I had other self-restrictions as well, like no using megas or (pseudo)legendaries (oh and no 4x weaknesses or any shared weaknesses across the team), and I don't regret doing it. It certainly made the game harder and while I could not really break much past 1550 Elo, it made me a better player, and when I starting using OU pokémon again (thanks to Dex-It) it was like taking off ankle weights. You can certainly taste a residual of that philosophy in this team as is an RU mon and is NU, and yet despite their low teirs the team is totally viable. I've gotten to 1872 with this team, and that was quite recent; I'm sure if generation 9 wasn't just a few days away I'd be able to easily break 1900 with it.

But the point stands; OverUsed mons tend to be pretty good, don't get me wrong. Simply, they are overused mostly due to their ability to be cut-and-pasted in and out of teams with relative ease. The further down the usage tiers you go the harder it is to just slap a mon onto your team. All that means is it requires more work on the part of the player when teambuilding, not that they are any worse per se. Case in point: this team, and many others. Notice in almost all of the RMTs where someone uses a lower-tiered mon (like Umbreon or Arctovish) that they were the first (or second if part of a core) mon added and the rest of the team was built around them.

My Reccomendations to New Players

My recommendation to new players, if there are any here, is to try making your own team. (First learn the type-chart and if you still aren't sure always use the commands to look it up). Play with pokémon that you like, even if they are below OU or UU. When you use a sample, sure as people argue you get to see what works, but you never learn why, how, or when those pokémon and those sets work. It's glaringly obvious when you make the wrong pivot or switch or prediction. When you make the team yourself, especially when following the typing defences and using a checklist like the one I provided, you inherently understand exactly what each pokémon is for, exactly what role they serve on your team, and exactly when to use them (or not, for that matter). You need to understand the weaknesses of your team and who you can sack when or who you need to save in the back. On this same note, you need to know what the common sets are that pokémon run. You need to develop a feel for the speed tiers and be able to identify the roles the opposing pokémon likely occupy (i.e. whether it's a scarfer, a sweeper, a wallbreaker, a staller). It makes it far easier to identify these when you are familiar with why they are used. You learn this through building your own team and using it, through playing dozens if not hundreds of games, and through researching with Porydex and the "Speed Tier" chart.

And if you're thinking of tweaking something, play more games first. If I was doing something as small as the single point EV change on , I would play at least a dozen or two games first. Unless you're an experienced player who can identify good tweaks/replacements on sight, something like changing a mon entirely shouldn't be considered until having played at least 50-100 games. As for how to EV spread, just consider what sets are common (via Porydex), but don't copy them. Just use as a reference. Consider their role and what you want their strengths to be, start with Speed EVs, get jump points and magic HP numbers (how-to is detailed in link at the top). Then if there is a specific common calc that could be fixed with just a few points, do that.

Considering the Team's Typing V

Anyways, back to the RMT. So as I was saying, while I typically build a team in that order, I'm not going to reveal them as such from here on out, mainly because the order I'm choosing is the order to which I think they are most replaceable. It may be a bit confusing because we were just talking about

and

resists but the mon I talk about next does not fill that role, and in fact makes it worse. Simply, if you find my priorities of focus to be confusing with respect to how I've been building the team so far, you aren't wrong. But these issues will be addressed. I will still note each pokémon's role as they are introduced, though. We do still need a

resist, however, and the next mon does incidentally cover that.

 

[Iodyne]

On Victini:

The Ideal Wallbreaker

The next pokémon I want to talk about is my wallbreaker. Physical wallbreakers tend to be far more effective than special ones, but of course physical mons are susceptible to Burn and contact damage, among other things. (As much as I don't want Frostbite it may prove a more balancing force if it were to ever be added.) I still want this mon to be bulky and I want it to hit harder than (my un-Banded) , and being less susceptible to the pitfalls of typical physical attackers is a plus. Also, if we look at the offensive coverage for the team so far, it can still get walled/threatened by pokémon like: /, , other and bulky Steels; bulky or fast offensive mons like , Banded , mixed , , , and Banded ; and some stall mons while they still have their Rocky Helmet or if it's not in the context of a 1v1, including and .
So ideally this mon also has some speed to deal with those more offensive mons while maintaining its power as a breaker. Also this is different than a sweeper. We already have two in the forms of and (and trust me they can sweep); we want something with instant power, so a Choice Band user, with a good attack stat, good moves, good coverage, and pivot capability. In my opinion the best type for a physical attacker is

because of their immunity to Burn. Of course an ability that does this is acceptable as well but there isn't any given to a physical attacker as of yet (I've been reminded of Araquanid and Guts mons, Magic Bounce users work too; but none of these are quite fast enough). packs a heavy punch with Sheer Force + Life Orb, but he isn't bulky apart from his HP stat. has a good attack and Speed Boost, but doesn't work well with Choice Band. I can't recall my exact thoughts at the time but you can kind of understand why I decided to pick .

⠀

⠀ Victory Star ⠀ 100 HP ⠀ 100 Atk ⠀ 100 Def ⠀ 100 SpA ⠀ 100 SpD ⠀ 100 Spe ⠀ 600 BST

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

Merits & Move Choices

was UU at the time; apparently noone else had thought to use him as a Banded wallbreaker? has super solid stats at base 100 all around, two incredible moves, V-Create (base 180 power, 95% accuracy, lowers defences and speed 1 stage), and Bolt Strike (130 BP, 85% accuracy, 20% Para), along with U-Turn, and a fourth slot for pretty much anything you desire.

coverage for and the like (or

for ) can be nice but with uninvested SpA doesn't really do much more than a resisted V-Create. Zen Headbutt is cool for and probably the most viable attack for 's fourth slot (Final Gambit is interesting too but very situational, though it does OHKO if is at 90% HP or higher), but also has access to some good

moves. These include Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Taunt, and even Trick Room, but probably best among these is Trick.

What is a Disruptor?

Another box on ones checklist when making a team should be some sort of disruptor; this could be Knock Off spam or Tricking some Choice item, a Sticky Barb, Lagging Tail or something similar. Pairing this with Choice items not only disrupts but also is extremely effecting to cripple a stall mon or straight up stop a sweeper if they go for a status move (like Recover or Iron Defence expecting a V-Create). Since most teams are already going to use a Choice item at least once, making sure it's a mon with Trick really helps tick those boxes.

EV Choices & Ability

As for the EVs, obviously max Attack, but we have to go Jolly to make sure we're faster than all the sub-100s; it's that many more mons we can accost. 4 into SpD for sure because it's that much more we can take from errant Scalds and the like (unless you can find me a good calc warranting 4 Def; please do if you can), and as I'll mention in a second, 's natural bulk is surprisingly nice for tanking a resisted move.
I should also mention Victory Star gives a built in Wide Lens, a 1.1x accuracy to all his moves, meaning V-Create never misses, and Bolt Strike gets buffed to 93.5% accuracy.

Quirks

Also note the 20% Paralysis chance on Bolt Strike. That is not insignificant; it happens more often than you'd think (how many times do you get your SpD dropped by Shadow Ball?), and Paralysis additionally helps justify 's speed investment.
Also, theoretically 's V-Create can be abused during Trick Room. You already need to get a few off but you get two free turns against any of the setters on that overused team (, , and ), so you do have an opportunity to try.

Team Strategy - vs. Trick Room

Preferably though, tends to be the best option for them as it OHKOs , and can easily flinch and . The opponent is forced to send out their own to which you can go and double back or flinch then EQ. And of course 's V-Create takes quick work of any of them at half health.

Match-Ups

Anyway, on to the calcs. As I said I'm not going to provide any full calcs but it's less of a question of what can Victini OHKO, and more of a question as to what it can't. With a real Attack stat of 448 (after Choice Band) and V-Create with a BP of 180 + STAB, the only things that can live a hit is a bulky mon that resists

, or if they're lucky, semi-bulky resisting mons or max HP, max Def neutral mons can maybe live with less than 25% HP.
Let me just go through the top 100 mons (by usage) and I'll note which can survive a V-Create or Bolt Strike.

Calcs

Guaranteed OHKO: All other top 100 pokémon not listed below (~2/3 of them)
Potential to OHKO: *
Very nearly OHKO (80-99%):
About 3/4 health: *
About 2/3 health: * * *
Guaranteed 2HKO: * *
Possible 2HKO:
3HKO:
*Where applicable, Flash Fire may be ignored, Bolt Strike may have been used to calculate damage over V-Create, or U-Turn may deal more damage.

You can see just how threatening can be. Especially with 328 Speed, once you get rid of their resists or chip them enough, if you pivot at the right time you can just switch in and click the button, forcing the opponent to pick their sacrifice. It really can be relentless with the right match up and if you keep the tempo. They might be forced to send in their or something and take 85% on the hit, just for you to switch into and sponge it. Then they start running out of mons. The biggest issue 1v1 is of course the mons at the bottom of the list ( handles those nicely) but also the ones who take about half health and can spam recovery. You're also obviously locked-in to your move so you can't allow yourself to be overly predictable. The other thing to watch out for is stalling + Toxic, or hazards chip. Since this isn't Boots you only have so many switch-ins. And pivoting is no longer an option. So a hazards-removal mon is definitely needed on the team.

One thing I wanted to mention before I move on, while both and can tank and threaten , is susceptible to Psyshock, and both are weak to Focus Blast. There are only two normal pokémon lines that resist all of 's moves (excluding Thunderbolt): and .
can live 2 Psychics (or 3 Focus Blasts) from Timid Specs (don't forget is faster). And as for Modest (Scarf), all of 's moves do less than 1/3 (except Psychic which has a 50% chance to 3HKO). also lives a Knock Off from Scarf and almost always a Sucker Punch from Life Orb . My point is has some good natural bulk to it too. I think an interesting set to run would be some fast, bulky support set with Boots, Will-O-Wisp, and whatever else.

On Landorus-Therian:

Considering the Team's Typing VI

Now let's look back at the typing defences again; the team is still weak to

and

. We could also use another

resist. So we need a

pokémon and a

pokémon, most likely. Bells are probably ringing in most readers heads right now and for once I will pick the OverUsed option.

⠀

⠀ Intimidate ⠀ 89 HP ⠀ 145 Atk ⠀ 90 Def ⠀ 105 SpA ⠀ 80 SpD ⠀ 91 Spe ⠀ 600 BST

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Merits

I am absolutely not going to divulge into why is so used. Great typing, great ability, great Attack, good enough other stats; plain and simple.

Considering the Team's Typing VII

While in the past I avoided pokémon with 4x weaknesses, its totally fine here since everyone else so far resists

. That's actually another way to find a pokémon whose typing fits; instead of trying to find a mon that resists your team's weaknesses, sometimes it's easier to look for a mon that is weak to your team's resistances. It often turns out that their typing has the right resistances, or simply that with their weaknesses covered, they are allowed to preform significant better on your team than some other.

EV & Move Choices

I don't need to have any defence investment as his immunities are 0% no matter what, and

pokémon have to deal with both a resistance and Intimidate. Besides, it would be a waste not to utilize 's awesome base 145 Attack stat.

Earthquake is a must, U-Turn pivot capability is very good, and Knock Off really helps deal with pesky Rocky Helmet users (and

coverage, among other things) so and can really shine. Stone Edge is kind of up for grabs; it is sometimes nice to have a move that can give you more offensive options when you aren't quite sure who the opponent might switch in to. It's also really nice for hitting

pokémon like for actual damage and also not having to worry about Static proc, as well as for surprise OHKO-ing .

Why No Stealth Rock

Stealth Rock is something you may notice this team is lacking. If you were to put it somewhere it would certainly be here in place of Stone Edge. I wouldn't argue against it but in my personal opinion, it is far too stressful when playing to try to control getting your hazards up while having to Defog theirs all the while also trying to kill their hazards mon, just for them to have two Rock-ers.

Item Choice

On the topic of surprise OHKOs, 's Choice Scarf helps in this way a lot. Timid Choice Scarf allows to hit a real Speed stat of 463, which of course is faster than every (unboosted) pokémon except for . Naturally at base 91 Speed, will outspeed any Scarfer or +1 pokémon at base 90 or slower (such as , , , , and , to name a few). (You also outspeed Autotomize and Slush Rush , as well as several others.) And with the 252 EV Attack, you can get some really good surprise kills in there. I mentioned , but notable others include , , , , , , , , , , , , , and out-of-Rain . Of course can OHKO or deal some massive damage to many other mons but these are the ones he consistently annihilates. If anyone is out there using , please stop U-Turn-ing on ; it is never worth the tiny chip for the big risk it incurs.

Team Strategy - Multiple Answers

Sometimes it's also nice to have multiple answers for sweepers on the team. As an example, can take 50% or so from 's Earthquake (or 0% from Stealth Rock expecting a switch) to return with an OHKO Ice Punch, but if this doesn't happen, then later in the match, can come in when is already boosted and finish it out with an Ice Beam. Similarly, while can almost always 1v1 , it's nice sometimes to be able to just switch in and OHKO (even without a Band) (a +1 Bug Buzz does 72-85% to ), or to bring out , outspeed at +1 (since tends to run Modest), and OHKO through Aurora Veil / Reflect with a non-crit Stone Edge.

On Zapdos:

Sixth Pokémon Choice

Well that's it for . The teams typing is now pretty solid, so honestly a good variety of mons could fit here (that's how you know a team is pretty solid).

Pheromosa Era

At the time that this version of these 5 mons got together, was in the midst of his infamy. I found the perfect counter for it in PhysDef . It resisted all of 's moves (save weak Shock Wave), and between Flame Body and Quiver Dance could handle physical, special, and mixed sets with ease. PM me here or on Showdown! if you want the set. But as soon as was banned, it soon became apparent that was no longer optimal on the team.

DarkShifu Era

I tried a few different mons including a brief stint with SD + Flame Charge , but with and filling in the power gap I needed something to deal with them. I also noticed without , wasn't enough to deal with (granted I was still using Darkest Lariat on rather than Heat Crash), so the mon needed decent defences along with a

or

move and a

move as well. I also noticed I needed a mon for hazard removal (something obvious now that I mentioned when detailing ) as well as weather control. So a lot in one, but I found it! It was jank but it worked. I don't remember the exact EV spread because I lost a lot of my old teams but I tried to recreate it (again, PM me if you want it), but the mon I chose was . Arguably one of the cutest pokémon designs, and always an object of "how can I make this work?". Boots + Defog handled the hazards, Cloud Nine the weather, and it had just enough Defence to live an Adamant Banded Wicked Blow from and enough Special Attack to OHKO back with Moonblast. It could also at least stall out a Gunk Shot or two from , and could 2HKO PhysDef and 3HKO SpDef sets. Oh and it had enough speed to outspeed and . As I said it worked, just not perfectly. But then again what did against ? That's why it was banned. ( is underrated and could handle him pretty well except when it went for Iron Head, unfortunately).

Kartana Era

But once and were banned, I once again searched for a new team member. I still needed a

move or something for

coverage and a

move for , and I still needed hazard removal and weather control. was also now filling in this new power gap. So something to resist most of his moves. As for weather control, perhaps between 's pure

-tanking capability and the power up

moves get in Sun that'd be enough. As for Rain, maybe something akin, like a

move, or Hurricane or Thunder could work. So our search looks something like this:
"/ds resists fighting, resists grass, !weak dark, all, fe, !uber, def desc, defog | rapid spin, flamethrower | heat wave, !weak ground, hurricane | thunder"
It results the following:
Incidentally, all my friends are there, , , and . Looking now and are totally viable, but around then and were as popular as ever and the idea of Flame Body or Static (especially coming from ) was appealing. though is weak to

(obviously) so it wouldn't be great in Rain (and is weak to

, which isn't ideal with only 1 resistance on the team). So is cool but I went with .

⠀

⠀ Pressure | Static ⠀ 90 HP ⠀ 90 Atk ⠀ 85 Def ⠀ 125 SpA ⠀ 90 SpD ⠀ 100 Spe ⠀ 580 BST

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 136 HP / 4 Def / 220 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane
- Defog

Item & Move Choices

I already explained Boots + Defog, plus why would I need to in the first place? I had Discharge first for the decent power and 30% Paralysis chance, but over time I realized the advantage of Volt Switch for pivoting potential and tempo upkeep. I already explained the need for Heat Wave for and and a bit of extra Sun control. Hurricane of course is for big STAB against mons like and , as well as for OHKO-ing bulky

and

pokémon.

I should mention two quirks with 's moves. First, Defog provides additionally synergy with Hurricane and Heat wave by reducing the opponent's evasion one stage. This means that after a Defog, Heat Wave can't miss, and Hurricane's accuracy gets bumped up to 93.3̅3%. Missing Hurricane always hurts but I don't think there is a worse feeling than when it misses after a Defog.
The other thing of note is that most don't run three attacks / no Roost when not running max Speed. As such there are often several times when the opponent may predict a Roost and go for a

move just for you to be immune and get a free turn. On that same note, if you reveal Heat Wave or Hurricane and not the other, the opponent doesn't expect you to have both. So you can often secure a KO when they bank on a Hurricane miss, or don't expect a super-effective

move. For this reason I sometimes bring in against just to Defog and Volt Switch out so a few turns later they accidentally sack it. Just a few things you can do. (With I recommend not revealing Heat Crash too early.)

EV Choices

As for the EVs, I started with 136 in Spe (270 real) in order to outspeed all the neutral 252 base 85s like and . I then bumped it up to 152 (274) so as to not tie with some older , , and sets. I also sometimes will add an extra 8 EVs past my target Speed as it allows me to outspeed my opponents who may have put in 4 EVs to outspeed me in what would typically be a tie. In clearer terms, if I intend to run 270 Speed and so does my opponent, and if I want to be faster (I know sometimes you don't with slow pivot and all but it's just an example), then I would want to put in an extra 4 EVs to hit 271 and win the tie. But if my opponent is smart, then they are likely also doing the same thing. Thus we would tie again; I put in another 4 EVs, 8 extra total, in order to be at 272 and outspeed them. In this case since I was going for 272 I did 274. After a while I felt that maybe the extra 4 weren't that useful in this case so I dropped it to 148 (273 real). Considering the change in sets over time, I think it'd be fine to reduce the speed back to 270, though I know other do run that, so you may want 271 or 272.

Modest 220 EVs SpA is because I wanted to be able to hit decently hard as well. 136 EVs Modest Heat Wave OHKOs as well as PhysDef . That or 140 EVs are definitely good milestones to hit but going up to 216 EVs gets you 2 more jump points and a lot more % chances to OHKO or 2HKO a multitude of mons. Also doing extra damage on mons like and is nice.

The rest went into HP for general bulk, and when I pulled 4 EVs out of Speed I just put it in Defence for whatever (I don't want even HP). Examining it, doesn't quite guarantee it'll live a +2 non-LO Knock Off, and could maybe use a bit more Defence. Though if we take 4 or 8 EVs from Speed, 8 from HP (technically 353 is better for indirect damage than 355, see magic HP numbers), and 4 each from SpA and Def, it only makes a slight difference and still doesn't guarantee it. On the other hand just 4 more EVs in Defence while maintaining 355 HP, or 8 more if 353 HP, gets rid of the small chance for +1 LO Knock Off from to OHKO, so that's probably worth it. At 343 HP or higher can live a Draco Meteor from Choice Specs , at 347 a Modest Eruption from , at 349 a +1 Steam Eruption from Timid , and 355 lives an Ice Beam from Modest Life Orb . I probably spec'd for that and forgot about it. So maybe don't take from HP? Just 4 from Spe or SpA and put it into Def for that calc.

Match-Ups

What I usually use for aside from obvious match ups is that between Volt Switch and the coverage his other moves provide, he often makes a great lead. Of course Scarf with just U-Turn is amazing; especially against lead or something, he can U-Turn and do ~45-55%, then switch into on the Stealth Rock or Ice Beam or Will-O-Wisp and if you beat the speed tie (to avoid Thunder Wave or the like) finish it off without ever taking damage. If you are wearing of winning the speed tie and Thunder Wave, you can just switch back to and U-Turn again or Knock Off (though you do take a bit of Stealth Rock damage). That's always a fun strat, and a similar situation arises mid-game when the opponent has their bulkier pokémon left, or when threatens . Back-to-back pivoting between 2 U-Turn users and Volt Switch really keep momentum especially when they do so much damage. ('s U-Turn does 40-50% to , 65-80% to , 84-99% to , and 45-60% to or 65-95% after Superpower, to name a few. It's the same story with but about 15% more damage.)

Team Strategy - Leads

Anyway, as I was saying with , sometimes a mon like looks really good except for or , so if you lead maybe you can get an Ice Beam off on (they except Protect + Substitute, or at worse 35% damage from Scald rather than 60%) but they'll soon just switch to one of these mons and get the momentum. With though, sure you have to deal with but if you get any more than the worst luck, you should be able to take it out and still threaten the rest of the team. Plus once their is out of the way, our 's Earthquake or 's Bolt Strike can look really good. If the opponent is leading or something, you obviously go Hurricane over Volt Switch every time. Sure if they go then you have to hard switch to and take the unresisted hit but Hurricane does at least 60% and can usually finish him off. Against Rain teams you obviously want for after their

mon is taken out, but you also need to save for , because if you didn't notice, is our only water resist. Sometimes you can try to Static or wait for the Rain to end and outspeed with , or tank a hit with , so there are options.

 

[Iodyne]

Well, that's the whole team.
If you actually read through this literal myriad and a half of words you have my sincerest gratitude.
I hope it was enlightening or at least interesting enough.

There's is more I would like to say and include such as replays and detailed scenarios, but I know this RMT has gone on long enough and I've already broken the character limit by a decent margin (hence the Pastebins and multiple posts), so those are not yet included. I will try to do so sometime soon though. These additions may be minimal just so I can get them posted here before gen 9 comes out.
In the meantime you can look up my replays yourself if you want. My accounts are incrementing roman numerals followed by "odyne", so Iodyne, IIodyne, etc.. IIIodyne probably has the most replays with this team.

Feel free to ask things in the comments and I'll try to provide whatever answers I can.

Thank you for reading; I hope you liked it.


Here is the full team again:


https://pokepast.es/8519d094f36244e3

Importable

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 248 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 232 Atk / 132 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 136 HP / 4 Def / 220 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane
- Defog

Replays (section in-progess, more will be added):

Proof of Peak (Elo 1872)

vs. Amaterus (1979)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1677613338-ufe5le7owy0ciyzpk7rjzjuky2wgv8dpw
Here you can see the importance of Suicune as a wall for Barraskewda and some boosted water moves. Note the benefit of Zapdos using Hurricane over Volt Switch on certain turns.

Ladder

As I said, this team is definitely capable of getting higher in the rankings, so it's more of a local maximum if you know what I mean.

High-Ladder Wins

vs. switchbladess (2051)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1684574934-z3aaaid88rxe4s1wreijeeg2oldcemapw
Sometimes you have to go for those risky plays, you know?

vs. Saimasseuh v8 (2023)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1710624364-v6yi83icu5uj8brc18p0uovlir312l3pw
I included this because it was against a high-ranked player and the early game was a good showcase of the teams strengths. I overpredicted against Ferrothorn a bit in the midgame which made the endgame considerably more difficult. I got a bit lucky with paralysis but so did he with damage rolls.

vs. Coach Jones 6fifth (1974)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1684607745-m9mkfabq67et0iulh4j5teueq76l6p6pw

vs. Whyaddicted (1892)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1685026684-lgd10ax5kdowz921pvtr4ramgrvkulapw
This was a close game. We both got a lucky turn or two*, and I made both some under- and over-predictions.
*Landorus-Therian has about a 50% chance to OHKO Dragapult without a crit. The scald burn times this chance is 15%, Heat Wave miss is 10%.

vs. Dondisagio (1888)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1679562145-uf143xjetudzklujara5i8lz5i7je7xpw
Showcases the pivoting potential between Zapdos and Landorus-Therian, as well as Zapdos' offensive prowess (i.e. turn 16).

vs. huilee (1875)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1691575808-xndvt4x8ho1aqlpndig8lli5rgz79edpw
This is a good example of a match-up where Victini can just shred through. Obviously you can't just always lead and switch into him; proper positioning is still required.

vs. Rorshach I (1869)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1685049817-o3vuvbvpn44gnzj05zcoqkz20jll9ocpw


[more to be added]

Other Wins

vs. Ctannn (1818)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1705525809-14rbey9uv2edpa0crphgya284zyqzkepw

vs. Pinkacross (1812)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1703708884-knfqfb3bgsrmw41o7kidvh9uh9xm1dwpw

6-0 vs. Hostile Takeovers (1809)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1705534912-gwkscj7lldu6m6gei39ew8aad5xzft6pw

vs. minimax_ai (1746)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1685231288-jn1tcnr19ormm0tl3n5cubf8wpfqfarpw
I got a bit lucky with Burns but frankly didn't need them. Mostly it was big prediction plays Victini versus Rotom-Wash.

vs. Last Second Run (1744)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1710649760-n1gwzo9dkorm4tzo5gmv136j66lc5vspw
This isn't anything amazing, but it is a decent showcase of Victini's breaking capability (turns 8 & 9) and general bulk (turn 32), and the pivoting synergy he, Landorus-Therian, and Zapdos share.


[more to be added]

Sweeps

vs. Ayante (1809)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1710796488-cxe5q14m3itbx0s6k06kh3hss7r9ulppw
While the opponent forfeited before you could really see the sweep, it was clear that Snorlax well well on his way to (and only at +1 for that matter). Because it was so short though I can explain each turn. At team preview, Suicune looked really good except for Gastrodon in the way. So I kept that in mind that as a goal for early-mid game. Of course as I noted earlier, it's not always ideal to lead your WinCon, but rather the mon with the most coverage (if you don't have a dedicated lead like me). Nonetheless, while I wanted Melmetal to take care of Gastrodon, I couldn't lead him for fear of Victini and Heatran. So I resigned to Suicune. Clef was his lead, and obviously I switched to Melmetal; steel beats fairy but also AV cripples Trick sets. I went Earthquake predicting a switch to Heatran but getting chip on Gastrodon was actually better, meaning I only needed a single flinch rather than two. Then of course they'd expect me to go Earthquake because it kills and threatens a switch to anyone but Dragonite. Thus I went Ice Punch for Dragonite, but the opponent went with Air Balloon Heatran instead, which was fine by me since I popped the Balloon. Of course then hard switch into Snorlax as base 150 STAB Eruption does nothing (8% after Leftovers). Predicting either a switch or a Toxic, I Cursed once, though when I saw the switch to Gastrodon I'll admit I wish I Body Slammed. But I realized +1 does a good chunk and 43% plus paralysis proved my point. I Body Slammed again hoping for full paralysis (if not, I'd just Curse again). But now the opponent kept trying to switch to the best answer, as I kept getting massive "chip" and paralysis. Paralyzing the Bisharp was completely unnecessary as at +1 a Knock Off couldn't do more than 45% while Heat Crash does 104% minimum. From there, Snorlax would keep spamming Body Slam until he switches to Heatran or Dragonite to Roost-spam. And then of course I simple keep Cursing and Resting.

vs. Try-Pink (1655)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1712230141-vxt97ldoe8d98em5pmsf11e0t2ktetzpw


[more to be added]

Losses

vs. weinny (pokeaimMD) (1708)

YouTube Replay

I think my first time being featured in one of Pokeaim's videos; a bit surreal I guess, despite whatever gripes I have with his effects on the meta (especially low- to mid-ladder). This is a good example of how Landorus-Therian + Victini just cleans lead Mew, giving a clean "in" to Suicune. The scald was perhaps lucky but Suicune very often 1v1s Weavile, and as you'll see my luck didn't continue. I don't typically follow specific teams unless I come up and lose against the same one repeatedly, so I figured that this Volcarona was Modest like the majority of them. As such I figured Stone Edge would OHKO. Going for Victini was probably a safe play, but after Rocks can't quite guarantee surviving a +1 Bug Buzz. I had to bring out Snorlax. I went for a curse so I could 2HKO without proc-ing Swarm (Timid gave it away). Perhaps I should have just tried to go for the Paralysis, but I still had to play around the small chance of Flame Body. Bringing it down to 37% HP was perfect, as it avoided Swarm, but then he Substituted to purposefully get into Swarm range. I lived the roll (though I think it favoured me), and then had to switch Zapdos for a Hurricane on the Garchomp he sent out. I probably should have just clicked it but after Stone Edge miss I wanted the boost in accuracy Defog would provide (plus getting rid of Rocks helped a bit too). I didn't quite expect the double back to Garchomp as I played Victini, so now he firmly had the tempo. I didn't want to let Garchomp use Swords Dance without at least accruing some decent damage. With the hail chip and my not taking turns slowly I didn't notice he was max Attack Life Orb, so I didn't think an Earthquake would OHKO but with Rough Skin and Hail it unfortunately did just barely. When both pokemon faint in the same turn, you basically have to pick a new lead. Suicune looks good against Cloyster (and winnable if Scald can get off another burn), but Ninetales-Alola was obviously their best choice of play. I needed to lead Zapdos to get off a Heat Wave or Hurricane + Confusion but even then it was very unlikely. So I went Volt Switch in the off case they doubled to Cloyster expecting me to switch, or if they went for Blizzard and I could get a clean in to Suicune (who could then absolutely win). Alas, Freeze Dry was enough damage to finish me off. It was a good game though and if you're reading this pokeaim, well played.

vs. Pinecoishot (1880)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1685037998-n8w05ssaz5wz8bkthjzt526keyfmxjdpw
I'd like to consider this a win, had I not been completely dumb and just attacked the last turn. I wasn't paying attention to the revealed moves and expected a Roost, so I just went for a Curse to be able to KO it after.


[more to be added]

 

[Iodyne]

Reserved for future use.

 

[ElStefano]

Hey =)

I have to admit I haven't read the entirity of what you wrote, but a whole lot of it. I like your way of thinking, looking for mons with good traits rather than just mindlessly using the top 10 OU mons over and over again. Snorlax is really underrated imo and a lot of teams are underprepared for it.

I also love your RMT, you really share each and every thought of yours (Sometimes a Bit lenghty, but most of it was very interessting to read), with the collapsed boxes making it well structured.

For an ability that makes physical attackers immune to burn, there is Araquanid with Water Bubble and of course every mon with guts (e.g. Conkeldur), but those are all too slow to serve as breakers in your team of course...

Just wanted to correct you :P and point out how enjoyable this RMT was for me! I didn't find a suggestion to improve the team as of now... Hope to see more from you in the future! Greetings =)

 

[Iodyne]

Hey =)

I have to admit I haven't read the entirity of what you wrote, but a whole lot of it. I like your way of thinking, looking for mons with good traits rather than just mindlessly using the top 10 OU mons over and over again. Snorlax is really underrated imo and a lot of teams are underprepared for it.

I also love your RMT, you really share each and every thought of yours (Sometimes a Bit lenghty, but most of it was very interessting to read), with the collapsed boxes making it well structured.

For an ability that makes physical attackers immune to burn, there is Araquanid with Water Bubble and of course every mon with guts (e.g. Conkeldur), but those are all too slow to serve as breakers in your team of course...

Just wanted to correct you :P and point out how enjoyable this RMT was for me! I didn't find a suggestion to improve the team as of now... Hope to see more from you in the future! Greetings =)

Hi, thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. You don't have to read all of it, but I appreciate.
I am definitely of the opinion that a "!randpoke 6, OU" entourage will always loose to a well-thought out UU or even RU team.
The boxes were a recommendation that really made it parse-able; you can pick what not to read if you want.
As for the abiltiies you're absolutely right. Most of this was written not at my full mental faculty. Although not accessible, Magic Bounce Diancie-Mega and Absol-Mega are immune as well. And a new mon or two in Scarlet and Violet it seems.
I look forward to being able to provide more next gen! (Though hopefully not nearly as lengthily so.)

 

[Max op boy]

It might have taken me basically a whole day but I read all of it I like rtms like these I can tell you put a lot of effort in this rtm
but a few questions why did you sp atc eves on snorlax same with zapdos why do you need atc eves on zapdos

 

[Iodyne]

It might have taken me basically a whole day but I read all of it I like rtms like these I can tell you put a lot of effort in this rtm
but a few questions why did you sp atc eves on snorlax same with zapdos why do you need atc eves on zapdos

Thanks for reading! I put all of the EVs for Snorlax into HP and SpD to maximize it's special bulk. The last 4 EVs I wanted to win speed ties over the little % of extra damage. For Zapdos I wanted a good amount of SpA in order to threaten mons like Rillaboom, Bisharp, Toxapex, Landorus-Therian, and the like. Let me know if that answered some of your questions or not. Most of this I should have mentioned with each mon, though Snorlax's stuff was either implied or hidden in the calc pastebins.

 

[ElStefano]

It might have taken me basically a whole day but I read all of it I like rtms like these I can tell you put a lot of effort in this rtm
but a few questions why did you sp atc eves on snorlax same with zapdos why do you need atc eves on zapdos

I think you refer to this:

. . Pressure | Static . . 90 HP . 90 Atk . 85 Def . 125 SpA . 90 SpD . 100 Spe . . 580 BST

Its not EVs, but (in this case Zapdos) base stats. The EVs are added on top. Its a bit misleading, since usually the EVs are posted at this position =)

 

[Iodyne]

I think you refer to this:

. . Pressure | Static . . 90 HP . 90 Atk . 85 Def . 125 SpA . 90 SpD . 100 Spe . . 580 BST

Its not EVs, but (in this case Zapdos) base stats. The EVs are added on top. Its a bit misleading, since usually the EVs are posted at this position =)

ah yes; those are just the stats for reference. I might take a page out of pinkacross' book and import pictures from the teambuilder instead. The EVs are detailed in a labelled spoiler tag section.

See:

EV Choices

As for the EVs, I started with 136 in Spe (270 real) in order to outspeed all the neutral 252 base 85s like and . I then bumped it up to 152 (274) so as to not tie with some older , , and sets. I also sometimes will add an extra 8 EVs past my target Speed as it allows me to outspeed my opponents who may have put in 4 EVs to outspeed me in what would typically be a tie. In clearer terms, if I intend to run 270 Speed and so does my opponent, and if I want to be faster (I know sometimes you don't with slow pivot and all but it's just an example), then I would want to put in an extra 4 EVs to hit 271 and win the tie. But if my opponent is smart, then they are likely also doing the same thing. Thus we would tie again; I put in another 4 EVs, 8 extra total, in order to be at 272 and outspeed them. In this case since I was going for 272 I did 274. After a while I felt that maybe the extra 4 weren't that useful in this case so I dropped it to 148 (273 real). Considering the change in sets over time, I think it'd be fine to reduce the speed back to 270, though I know other do run that, so you may want 271 or 272.

Modest 220 EVs SpA is because I wanted to be able to hit decently hard as well. 136 EVs Modest Heat Wave OHKOs as well as PhysDef . That or 140 EVs are definitely good milestones to hit but going up to 216 EVs gets you 2 more jump points and a lot more % chances to OHKO or 2HKO a multitude of mons. Also doing extra damage on mons like and is nice.

The rest went into HP for general bulk, and when I pulled 4 EVs out of Speed I just put it in Defence for whatever (I don't want even HP). Examining it, doesn't quite guarantee it'll live a +2 non-LO Knock Off, and could maybe use a bit more Defence. Though if we take 4 or 8 EVs from Speed, 8 from HP (technically 353 is better for indirect damage than 355, see magic HP numbers), and 4 each from SpA and Def, it only makes a slight difference and still doesn't guarantee it. On the other hand just 4 more EVs in Defence while maintaining 355 HP, or 8 more if 353 HP, gets rid of the small chance for +1 LO Knock Off from to OHKO, so that's probably worth it. At 343 HP or higher can live a Draco Meteor from Choice Specs , at 347 a Modest Eruption from , at 349 a +1 Steam Eruption from Timid , and 355 lives an Ice Beam from Modest Life Orb . I probably spec'd for that and forgot about it. So maybe don't take from HP? Just 4 from Spe or SpA and put it into Def for that calc.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Hello! The idea of Snorlax and Suicune forming a slow and bulky setup core together is intriguing, and I hope that my suggestions can improve your team .

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/6f0529e2eae5d876

Changed heat crash to darkest lariat as I think being able to ignore defence boosts in a pinch is more useful than smashing steels with fire moves in the current metagame. Hitting Dragapult for super effective damage is also great for your special wall!

While Crocune is a perfectly fine set, Vincune sets have been getting more popular nowadays due to its ability to stall out more passive forms of counterplay with protect and substitute supplementing pressure. With how methodical this team is, I think that the latter is a better fit as Suicune can be a lategame win condition once opposing defensive cores are weakened or PP stall early-game roadblocks to Snorlax so the latter can clean.

Modest offensive sets are great, but Zapdos is playing such an important defensive role here in keeping offensive threats like Rillaboom and Kartana in check that I think the classic defensive defog set works perfectly here.

With how slow this team is, thunder wave support would go a long way and Melmetal was changed to a leftovers + protect set to slow down opposing threats for Snorlax and Suicune.

TO

Melmetal not running toxic means that electric types such as Rotom-Wash and Zapdos are going to be annoying to remove, and specially defensive Garchomp can lure them in due to their immunity to earthquake before crippling them with toxic. It also provides the team with a sturdy special tank to support Snorlax.

TO

With so many Pokemon using protect, Choice Band Rillaboom is a natural inclusion to provide them with even more passive recovery via grassy terrain while being a wallbreaker that can punch through defensive cores for Suicune and Snorlax to take advantage of. It is also a handy ground/water resist in a pinch.