Relicanth (QC 3/3)

[Krasnopesky]

[Overview]

• STAB Head Smash and Rock Head combo
• Good HP and Defence, decent Attack
• Poor Speed and Special Defence.
• Limited but useable movepool
• Weak to common fighting, ground, grass and electric attacks

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Head Smash
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
ability: Rock Head
nature: Jolly/Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Jolly lets Relicanth outspeed 1+ positive natured base 86s after a Rock Polish, which include scarfed threats such as Sawk, Rotom-F, Magmortar and Pinsir
• Outspeeds no investment base 95 speed without a boost (defensive Leafeon being a good example).
• Outspeeds a fair few walls even before Rock Polish
• STAB Head Smash obliterates everything that doesn’t resist it
• STAB Waterfall and Earthquake to reliably hit Head Smash resistant pokemon
• Can tank a couple of physical hits even uninvested and hit back hard

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Outspeeds positive nature base 140 speed after Rock Polish with adamant
• Alternative EVs 108 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe with a neutral nature allow Relicanth to outspeed positive nature base 115 speed and positive +1 base 60 speed pokemon after a Rock Polish
• Leafeon has excellent defensive and offensive synergy with Relicanth and can baton pass it Swords Dance (GG)

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Head Smash
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Double-Edge
item: Choice Band
ability: Rock Head
nature: Adamant/Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

• Outspeeds many common tanks and hits them hard
• Hits very hard without any setup
• Flawless neutral coverage
• STAB Head Smash obliterates everything that doesn’t resist it
• Waterfall and Earthquake to reliably hit Head Smash resistant pokemon
• Double-Edge is mainly a filler, but eases prediction

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Alternative evs of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def can be run for more bulk, but Relicanth generally likes to outspeed as much as it can
• Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall but its lower accuracy, no chance to flinch and relatively small boost in power is not usually worth it
• Sleep Talk can be used over Double-Edge as a Spore / Sleep Powder absorber
• Head Smash has a 100% 2HKO on max HP / Def Bold Alomomola with Stealth Rocks

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Head Smash
move 2: Waterfall / Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock / Toxic
move 4: Toxic / Yawn
item: Leftovers
ability: Rock Head
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def


[SET COMMENTS]

• Has decent offensive presence without attack investment
• Waterfall hits harder in general and is super effective against ground types
• Earthquake hits steel types harder then any other option
• Wish support is very valuable
• Can absorb non STAB super effective physical attacks
• Toxic wears down walls and counters that can take an univested Head Smash
• Yawn can force switches racking up more entry hazard damage

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Alternative evs of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def and an adamant nature can be used, but this Relicanth is better used defensively
• A moveset of Toxic, Yawn, Stealth Rock, Head Smash is viable but Steel, Fighting and Ground types wall you completely
• Bulky pokemon with Substitute can set up on this set

[Other Options]

• Swift swim sets can be viable, but swift swim removes the main reason to use Relicanth: No recoil Head Smash
• The Rock Polish set can have its EVs, item and the move Rock Polish changed to 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def, leftovers and substitute for a bulky attacker, but offensive Relicanth likes outspeeding as many walls as possible
• Rest Talk sets can be viable but are generally better left for other pokemon
• Amnesia could be useful on a wall set but the moveslot is better used with a support or attacking move

[Checks and Counters]

• Choice Band/Life Orb variants have very few true counters in RU
• Counters: Tangela, Torterra, Quagsire, Throh
• Checks: Pokemon that can outspeed it and retaliate super effectively or bulky Pokemon resistant to Head Smash that wont be 2HKOed

[Dream World]

• Sturdy is useless compared to its other abilities

 

[Ice-eyes]

Slash Rocks onto the Band set over Double-Edge?

Is there room for a Rhydon-esque support set?

 

[tennisace]

Slash Rocks onto the Band set over Double-Edge?

Is there room for a Rhydon-esque support set?

Disagree with slashing rocks, maybe worth a sentence in AC but the point of CB Relicanth is to smash faces in with Rock Head Head Smash.

For support you could do something like

Relicanth@Leftovers or w/e
Sturdy
252 hp / 252 def (rough draft obviously)
Impish
-Waterfall
-Rock Slide or Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic / Yawn

I have no idea if this works or does anything really notable but 100 HP/130 Def is excellent. The only problem is: Sawk and Klinklang still run right through you.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Why would you not run Head Smash on defensive Relicanth...?

But yeah that set is basically what I had in mind (although, like Rhydon, you could run max attack on it).

 

[tennisace]

You could definitely run Head Smash + Rock Head but Sturdy allows you to in a pinch get rocks up regardless of their attack.

 

[Krasnopesky]

Disagree with slashing rocks, maybe worth a sentence in AC but the point of CB Relicanth is to smash faces in with Rock Head Head Smash.

For support you could do something like

Relicanth@Leftovers or w/e
Sturdy
252 hp / 252 def (rough draft obviously)
Impish
-Waterfall
-Rock Slide or Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic / Yawn

I have no idea if this works or does anything really notable but 100 HP/130 Def is excellent. The only problem is: Sawk and Klinklang still run right through you.

I personally don't think that even mentioning Rock Slide is worth it. It only hits pokemon harder when its super effective;
STAB Rock Slide: 112.5 damage Double Edge: 120 damage. Rock Slide is also 90 accuracy so it still has a chance of missing. To top it all of Double Edge provides better coverage then Rock Slide does.

-------------

I haven't tried the support sets extensively so I'll test a few out.

Having said that in the past I have found support sets lacking in power and usefullness. Generally there are much better choices for a support pokemon. In NU Miltank comes to mind instantly, who almost completely outclasses the above set.

The issue is that despite the fact that Relicanth 100 - 130 physical defence it has no recovery and has a poor defensive typing; many physical attackers will have one move that can hit it super effectively.

Although it can force switches on certain mons, which gives it an opportunity to use stealth rock/random support move, it is generally better to use that opportunity to demolish something with Head Smash or predict a resistor and punish them with a coverage move. Hence why I have put the support moves in the OO.

An alternative set I have been considering is the following:

Relicanth@Leftovers
Rock Head
252 hp / 252 def or 252 Atk / 252 Spd or 252 HP / 252 Atk
Impish/Jolly/Adamant/Brave
-Substitute
-Head Smash
-Waterfall / Yawn / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Earthquake
-Yawn / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Earthquake / Amnesia??

Obviously a very rough draft.

Come in and force a pokemon out, substitute on the switch, react accordingly. Yawn is great if the opponent only has one counter to Relicanth as it can force them out and allow Relicanth to hit something else with Head Smash. Waterfall can potentially be replaced with one of the slashed moves too depending on your need.

Fun fact: Max HP Relicanth makes 101 HP subs, not sure if thats any good for RU though

This set can be used as a support set, but still has the Head Smash/Rock Head combo that makes Relicanth so good.

 

[breh]

physically defensive relicanth could actually be kind of neat. I've been using machoke for a while, which has a defensive score similar to that of max/max relicanth; the former is absolutely amazing at taking hits and I assume that relicanth is as good at doing so. as a neat little bonus, it also resists blizzard.

would be something like head smash/restalk/EQ with max/max impish.

 

[Endorfins]

are the speed EVs necessary in the rock polish set as there are no important base 140s in NU
can relicanth aim for a particular benchmark like scarf sawk or something

 

[Rakan]

Electrode

granted, it isn't that common but still

 

[Endorfins]

really, electrode...
isnt there a better speed benchmark...

 

[Krasnopesky]

are the speed EVs necessary in the rock polish set as there are no important base 140s in NU
can relicanth aim for a particular benchmark like scarf sawk or something

Adamant 2+ Relicanth hits 418 speed, which is enough to outspeed 1+ positive nature base 77 speed at max. Most common scarfers or speed boosters that you would want to outrun in NU tend to be 80 - 86 (Braviary, 1+ Altaria, Magmortar, Pinsir, Sawk, Rotom-F).

You can outspeed 1+ positive nature base 87 speed with Jolly and max speed EVs. You wouldn't want to drop more then Rotom-F level, which is base 86. So you could divert 20 speed Evs to HP/Def. But i would rather speed tie with Sunny Day Exeggutor, other Relicanth and speed boost 2+ Combusken then drop the 20 EVs.

For Adamant nature you could aim at outspeeding Swellow/Dugtrio/positive nature base 115s or 1+ magneton. But again I would rather outspeed as much as possible.

The speed level is important for outspeeding as much as possible unboosted as it is boosted, due to the fact that Relicanth can be used quite well unboosted to hit switches and finish off slower mons.

 

[Endorfins]

okay
thx for the clarification
now i agree with you
out speeding rotom f is the bench mark to go for

 

[Krasnopesky]

physically defensive relicanth could actually be kind of neat. I've been using machoke for a while, which has a defensive score similar to that of max/max relicanth; the former is absolutely amazing at taking hits and I assume that relicanth is as good at doing so. as a neat little bonus, it also resists blizzard.

would be something like head smash/restalk/EQ with max/max impish.

While its defensive score is impressive, almost every top physical attacker in RU can hit Relicanth super effectively so it is generally better running max Attack to dish out as much damage as possible. Machoke has a far better defensive typing which is essentially more important then base stats. Although it is quite viable to run a support set with wish support.

I have tested bulky and offensive Rest Talk and Relicanth prefers to run more attacking options or support/set ups then attempting to survive for longer and wall opposing teams. It suffers from 4 moveslot syndrom too badly in my opinion, but I will retest the set you provided.

Head Smash's low PP also means Relicanth shouldn't really try to get past Physical walls that it can't 2HKO with Head Smash as those types often have recovery or simply force it out (grass types, bulky waters). This is another problem as once Head Smash is used up Relicanth just sits around looking like a boss but not doing much.

It is nice that it resists Blizzard, but you shouldn't use Relicanth as a Blizzard resist on your team base. 65 SpDef is pretty awful without sandstorm and it will not be able to take many 120BP STAB special attacks even if resisted. Plus many pokemon that use Blizzard can demolish Relicanth with their coverage moves, e.g. Rotom-F thunderbolt, Jynx Psychic and Glaceon can cleanly 2HKO with specs. Amnesia could patch it up but it's generally a wasted moveslot and turn.

 

[Krasnopesky]

I have been doing some testing and damage calculations. Some possible sets we can consider are:

Support

Relicanth@Leftovers
Rock Head
252 hp / 252 def or 252 HP / 252 Atk
Impish/Adamant/Brave
-Head Smash
Last three moves can be any of:
-Waterfall / Earthquake / Substitute / Yawn / Toxic / Stealth Rock

• Without Waterfall / Earthquake steels wall you
• Has trouble breaking through its checks without life orb or choice band on the offensive variant
• Substitute eases prediction and makes it a lot tougher to revenge kill you
• The last three moves are preference based upon the rest of your team and what you need
• The EVs can be tailored to how you want to use Relicanth, more defence for better physical tanking, more attack to hit pokemon harder with Head Smash.

Rest Talk

Relicanth@Leftovers
Rock Head
252 hp / 252 def or 252 HP / 252 Atk
Impish/Adamant/Brave
-Head Smash
-Waterfall / Earthquake
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

• Good physical tank that can hit back fairly hard
• Status absorber
• with the bulkier spread it can take a few unSTABed super effective physical attacks making it able to recover HP with rest
• I cannot decide over the EVs. max defence is probably better on the rest talker if you want to survive the sleep to rest again, but that reduces the amount of damage you can dish out significantly
• Lacks in power and is pretty useless once Head Smash runs out of PP

----------------------------


The support set has potential but the rest talker isn't looking very promising to me.

 

[Endorfins]

i really dont see why relicanth deserves a rest talk set
with a defensive spread, set up pokes can set up all over relicanth
while an attack spread means relicanth can easily be KOed especially when sleep talk is so unreliable
imo rest talk should be left to pokes with amazing bulk and a set up move
eg regirock, snorlax in uu

 

[Krasnopesky]

i really dont see why relicanth deserves a rest talk set
with a defensive spread, set up pokes can set up all over relicanth
while an attack spread means relicanth can easily be KOed especially when sleep talk is so unreliable
imo rest talk should be left to pokes with amazing bulk and a set up move
eg regirock, snorlax in uu

Yes I agree, just have to keep testing the support set now.

 

[Endorfins]

maybe u should split the sets
im leaning more in favour of the attacking spread with sub and the defensive spread with toxic and stealth rock
without attack investment relicanth isnt going to be scaring anything out with head smash
and anything that is bulky and has sr should use it
just my idea though
ive never actually tried it out

 

[Krasnopesky]

maybe u should split the sets
im leaning more in favour of the attacking spread with sub and the defensive spread with toxic and stealth rock
without attack investment relicanth isnt going to be scaring anything out with head smash
and anything that is bulky and has sr should use it
just my idea though
ive never actually tried it out

Support
Relicanth@Leftovers
Rock Head
252 HP / 252 Def
Impish
-Head Smash
-Waterfall / Earthquake
-Stealth Rock / Yawn
-Toxic / Yawn

Bulky Offence
Relicanth@Leftovers
Rock Head
252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant/Brave (0 Spe IV)
-Substitute
-Head Smash
-Waterfall
-Earthquake

 

[Krasnopesky]

Ok after a bit of testing and damage calculating I have added a support set and mentioned the bulky substitute set in the OO.

I am still not entirely convinced the support set is worth its own writup as Head Smash is significantly weaker without damage boosting EVs and items and there are many pokemon in RU who can run a physical tank support set better.

Opinions and additional testing would be much appreciated so I can finish the Skeleton.

 

[Ice-eyes]

The support set is definitely worth a writeup. If you found Head Smash too weak, you might want to make the offensive spread the main one.

Other than that, it looks fine.

 

[tennisace]

agreeing with Ice-Eyes

 

[jake]

QC APPROVED (3/3)

 

[Graceclaw]

I've actually been using a psuedo-support set as a suicide lead/switch fodder that looks like this:
Relicanth (M) @ Focus Sash Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Toxic


I've had enormous success with it, though I seldom use Toxic, so I'm thinking about replacing it with Earthquake, since Klinklang are so rampant in NU.



The sash gives me both Rock Head and Sturdy, ensuring that I can either set up Rocks or wreak havoc with Head Smash. Relicanth has the potential to put massive dents in almost anything, and I often just spam it after setting up rocks.



This set has been doing extremely well for me, and is my favorite lead/SR user in NU so far. (This whole post was in defense of a support Relicanth and maybe a mention about a possible main/suicide lead).

Here's just one example of what he can do in this metagame (against one of the top players, no less):

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Chiseled-vs-MagLight--2011-12-15

For some reason it isn't loading Relicanth's sprite on my computer, but he's "Saphira", and completely wrecks shop.

 

[Krasnopesky]

I've actually been using a psuedo-support set as a suicide lead/switch fodder that looks like this:
Relicanth (M) @ Focus Sash Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Toxic

I've had enormous success with it, though I seldom use Toxic, so I'm thinking about replacing it with Earthquake, since Klinklang are so rampant in NU.

I like the set and have been play testing with it and can report that it works fairly well from my end. However given the nature of team preview I am reluctant to put up a 'lead' set. the max HP & Atk is a decent EV spread, but I find base 90 attack lacks a little in power for a dedicated attacker without Life Orb or Choice Band, even considering STAB Head Smash.

 

[Graceclaw]

I like the set and have been play testing with it and can report that it works fairly well from my end. However given the nature of team preview I am reluctant to put up a 'lead' set. the max HP & Atk is a decent EV spread, but I find base 90 attack lacks a little in power for a dedicated attacker without Life Orb or Choice Band, even considering STAB Head Smash.

Well he never shows up as my designated "lead", but more often than not that's what I use him for. And his main role is to set up SR and then do as much damage as possible before being taken out. As is evidenced by the battle, he can do a lot of damage to unprepared teams with 309 atk and STAB Head Smashes running rampant. People still want a Pokemon that they can lead with most of the time and set up SR reliably. He does both well. I'm just giving my two cents :)