As someone who reached #1 on the DW Ubers ladder on the PokéBattleCenter server, the Pokémon Online server (and also simultaneously had four other names in the top 10 on that ladder, including one name at #2), the Reborn Server
and the Pokémon México server, I will say this right now:
Multiscale Lugia is
much better than Pressure Lugia. In fact, with its Dream World Ability, Lugia is the
fourth best Pokémon in the entire game, right behind Arceus, Kyogre, and Groudon (by far the deadliest sweeper and most versatile Pokémon ever, and the two dominant weather summoners of the tier, respectively. Lugia is below them only because they are the ones which control the entire metagame). Why? Consider the following Pokémon:
Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus, Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia, Calm Mind Mewtwo, Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Blaziken, Soul Dew Latias and Latios.
Those are all immensely powerful offensive threats found in the harsh environment of the Übers metagame, and can easily punch holes in even the most well-built team, if not sweep them entirely. Yet, the simple inclusion of a Multiscale Lugia in a team with Magic Bounce support instantly neutralizes every single one of the aforementioned destructive threats. Suddenly, the incredible threat that is the opponent's Dragon Dance Rayquaza, which would have otherwise completely demolished one's entire team is reduced to nothing more than a paralyzed serpent with all of the stat boosts it attained nullified by a simple Whirlwind, waiting to be easily picked off by a super effective attack later on in the match, while Lugia can easily Recover (well, Roost, now that it has access to that as well, which makes it even better) back to full health, and act as if its little skirmish with Rayquaza never even happened. The opponent's Swords Dance Rock Polish Groudon, which easily sweeps even the most well-prepared teams simply by coming into a Choice Scarf Terrakion locked into Stone Edge? Lugia Toxifies it and Whirlwinds it out without breaking a sweat. And it is also the ultimate and most reliable counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, by far the best set of by far the best Pokémon in the game.
From my innumerable experiences with building DW Ubers teams, I can safely say that there isn't a single team barring the most hyper-offensive one, in which I have not at least considered the use of a Multiscale Lugia, because it is simply just that good of a wall. It almost completely eliminates the need to utilize clever predictions in order to play around or beat the countless threats in the tier that are otherwise almost uncounterable. While most good Übers teams can check at least most of the threats I mentioned above, can anyone honestly say that they can use a single Pokémon (well, two with Espeon/Xatu to keep Stealth Rock off the field) to not only check, but flat out
counter each and every one of those threats? I don't think so.
I have rather limited experience with Wifi Ubers compared to DW Ubers, but from what I have read in this thread, it appears that one of Lugia's primary purposes in Wifi Ubers is to waste the opponent's Pokémon's PPs with Pressure, in conjunction with Roost and moves like Light Screen and Reflect. Well, if that's the case, then you can completely forget about that in DW Ubers, because it's no longer necessary. Now the best use of Lugia is not to stall out PPs, but to not only counter the vast majority of the offensive threats that make up the metagame, but also crippling them with either paralysis or Toxic, depending on their Pokémon. Most fast and/or frail Pokémon are best off paralyzed and then blown away with Whirlwind, so that another Pokémon can outrun them and effortlessly finish them off later on in the match (and coincidentally, Ho-Oh is an excellent Pokémon for that purpose). For example, a paralyzed Mewtwo can be easily outrun and destroyed by a Ho-Oh's Life Orb Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, while a paralyzed Rayquaza can be outrun and crushed by just about any dragon. However, Extreme Killer Arceus is much better off poisoned, as not only does its main and strongest attack bypass the Speed drop from paralysis, but it is also so bulky that almost no attacks exist which can take it out in one hit anyway. A poisoned Extreme Killer Arceus is also easily stalled by Multiscale Lugia until it succumbs to the poison. And Pokémon like Groudon and Garchomp, that are immune to Thunder Wave, should also obviously be Toxic stalled.
Another thing I would like to mention is that Lugia is a Pokémon upon which very little, if any Speed EVs are often invested, because people prefer to enhance its bulk instead. But with Multiscale Lugia, the priorities have shifted. Now, Speed is very important in order to allow Lugia to regain its Multiscale with Roost before the opponent's Pokémon attacks it, and in very desperate situations, also to allow Lugia to outrun and paralyze certain threats before it faints. Lugia's bulk, on the other hand, has suddenly become less important, as a Multiscale Lugia at full health will always be bulkier than any Pressure Lugia anyway, regardless of how much it invests into Defense or Special Defense. I personally think that the ideal amount of Speed to invest into Lugia is 204, as that allows it to outrun Jolly Groudon, so that it can Roost before it uses Stone Edge, and this is especially important because Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave (if Groudon uses Rock Polish, just Whirlwind it away). And because Lugia is meant to be a mixed wall, I think the ideal set for Multiscale Lugia is this:
Surya (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
Now, onto Regenerator Ho-Oh. Because its use is almost completely exclusive to a single weather, it is nowhere near as metagame-defining as Multiscale Lugia. Because while Lugia is a wall that completely counters the vast majority of Pokémon, which also works in any weather (although personally, I think Sun is also the most favorable weather for Lugia, largely due to Thunder only having 50% accuracy), Ho-Oh is nothing more than just an insanely good Pokémon within one specific weather. However, it is still nonetheless one of the best Pokémon in the game after Arceus, Kyogre, Groudon and Lugia. Here, I should just copy and paste from an RMT I once wrote, describing my Ho-Oh set in that team, in order to demonstrate just how ridiculously effective Regenerator Ho-Oh can be. Keep in mind that it can do everything I am about to describe
using only one moveset. And this is hardly the only moveset Ho-Oh can run, as it very commonly uses the Substitute set (which can manage an entirely different set of feats), and can also use defensive sets with moves like Thunder Wave, Whirlwind, and things like that.
CHAMPION LANCE said:
Ra (Ho-Oh) @ Life Orb
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
This Ho-Oh, named after the Egyptian God of the Sun, is one of the two main sweepers in my team. Its moveset seems very simple and straightforward from a superficial perspective, but in fact, it actually allows this Ho-Oh to be one of the deadliest and most versatile Pokémon in existence, being a wall breaker, a special wall, and a sweeper all in one, making it one of the most perfect Pokémon, aside from its desperate need of Drought and Magic Bounce support. This Ho-Oh is quite arguably the most useful member of this team, simply because of the vast number of things it can do in many different situations, including, but in no way limited to: 1. Walling any Reshiram that lack a Rock-type move, something almost no other Pokémon can do; 2. easily disposing of Substitute Darkrai provided it had put another Pokémon to sleep previously, thanks to its huge Special Defense and its ability to raise its Speed while simultaneously breaking Darkrai's Substitute with Flame Charge; 3. reducing Ferrothorn and Forretress (provided it has less than 100% health), two very common Pokémon to nothing more than setup bait with Flame Charge; 4. easily absorbing Draco Meteors and Recovering or Regenerating off a significant amount of the damage (it can take a Choice Specs Draco Meteor from even one of those dragons with a 150 base Special Attack!); 5. tanking Giratina's (and some Dialga's) Dragon Tails indefinitely, by repeatedly sending Ho-Oh in against it, taking less than 33% damage per hit while recovering exactly 33% damage every time it is called back, in effect doing nothing but wasting the PP of the opponent's Giratina or Dialga while Ho-Oh itself does not take any net damage whatsoever, and may in fact even be healed in the process if the Rainbow Pokémon had taken some damage beforehand (Ho-Oh's ability to do this is made especially useful due to its immunity to Will-o-Wisp, which is usually Giratina's only other form of offense); 6. using Sacred Fire which has a chance of burning any Extreme Killer Arceus foolish enough to attempt to set up before Ho-Oh (while at the same time heavily damaging Arceus provided the heavens are filled with intense sunlight), crippling the Original One for the rest of the match; 7. easily beating any Calm Mind Arceus (provided it is not of the Rock, Electric, Water or Dragon type); 8. serve as a pivot to switch from Groudon to Lugia against Mewtwo, so that Lugia ends up taking a Psystrike on the switch rather than an Ice Beam; 9. using the myriad of Pokémon it completely walls in the Sun, including Palkia, Reshiram, Latias, Espeon and special attacking Arceus as complete setup fodder; 10. smashing through walls very easily thanks to its pair of absurdly powerful and near-unresisted physical Same Type Attack Bonus moves, which, among commonly-used Pokémon in Übers, are resisted only by Zekrom and Tyranitar, both of which loathe a burn from Sacred Fire (and additionally, there is the fact that Ho-Oh is a physical attacker whose attacks just so happen to be able to beat most common physical walls in Übers, making it very close to unstoppable as special walls obviously also cannot wall it); 11. sweep teams very easily after one or two Flame Charges and the opponent's Kyogre is down, largely thanks to its aforementioned insane offensive power; 12. taking close to nothing (and in fact, in the grand scheme of things, absolutely nothing factoring in Regenerator) from the very common U-turns of Genesect; and last but certainly not least; 13. serving as a great Kyogre lure, as its Life Orb Brave Bird simply deals a tremendous amount of damage to any Kyogre switching into it expecting a Sacred Fire, possibly taking it out in a single blow after just one round of Stealth Rock damage.
Think about it: Ho-Oh is immune to Will-O-Wisp and takes less than 33% from Giratina's Dragon Tail. Now it can completely and utterly stonewall the most common Giratina set. When Ho-Oh hits a Kyogre on the switch with a Life Orb-boosted Brave Bird, it typically loses a large chunk of its own health from the recoil. After that, you can now just switch to Palkia/Gastrodon/Arceus-Grass and that recoil damage is almost completely negated. With a combination of Life Orb and Brave Bird, Ho-Oh, especially Flame Charge variants, often reduces itself to dangerously low health, to the point where it would easily faint from a Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, or even just another round of Life Orb damage. If the opponent has out a Pokémon against which Ho-Oh cannot just safely Recover/Roost, then what? Normally, Ho-Oh would just accept its demise by firing off one last Sacred Fire or Brave Bird before going down, as it usually isn't worth switching out and keeping a relatively slow Pokémon with low health around. But with Regenerator? Just switch out. Next time Ho-Oh comes in, it's in better shape and may be able to safely Recover/Roost. If it can't, just switch out again, and now Ho-Oh has just went from being on the verge of fainting to having about 70% health now.
Also, anyone who is intending to use Regenerator as a means of somewhat negating the damage that Ho-Oh takes from Stealth Rock (so that it loses 17% health as opposed to 50% every time it comes in and leaves) is doing it wrong. Instead of doing that, why not just put an Espeon/Xatu on the team, so that instead of losing 17% health every time Ho-Oh comes in and leaves, it regains 33% health? To those who may be thinking that it is detrimental to "waste" a spot on one's team with a Magic Bounce Pokémon, rest assured that it is not. In fact, I'd say that in general, as long as one is not running an insanely hyper-offensive team of course, an Übers team containing five Pokémon + an Espeon/Xatu is more effective than a team containing six powerful Pokémon, and there are many reasons why that is the case.
1. Magic Bounce Pokémon completely wall Lugia. This is exponentially more important than before now that Multiscale Lugia is released. I'm sure many people here have experienced having their team destroyed by one of those Toxic-stalling Substitute Lugia, and I'm sure that in that situation, many of such people would probably at some point have wished that their team contained an Espeon or a Xatu.
2. The inclusion of an Espeon or a Xatu in one's team allows one to completely counter the vast majority of offensive threats with Multiscale Lugia, as I have explained before.
3. Ho-Oh is not the only Pokémon that dislikes being damaged by Stealth Rock. The aforementioned Multiscale Lugia, Reshiram, the two new Kyurem Formes, and Rayquaza all despise it. Actually, technically, every single Pokémon barring those with Magic Guard do. Regardless of how resilient to Steath Rock and other entry hazards one's team may be, being able to keep one's own field hazard-free is a
massive advantage for any team, and certainly worthy of dedicating one team spot for an Espeon/Xatu.
4. Toxic Spikes put a limit on the life of one's Kyogre or Groudon, putting one at an immediate disadvantage in the weather war, the victory of which is extremely important to many teams.
5. Toxic Spikes render most Calm Mind Arceus almost completely unusable unless they have Refresh.
6. Ferrothorn Spikes stacking is one of the deadliest strategies in Übers due to this Pokémon's great bulk and myriad of resistances, which gives it ample time to eventually stack three layers of Spikes, at which point it becomes exceedingly difficult for the opponent to win especially if the Ferrothorn trainer has a bulky pseudo-hazer like Giratina or Lugia (it wasn't my intention to mention this Pokémon
again...), as add in Stealth Rock, and most Pokémon are taking 30+% damage just by switching in. This is especially devastating against rain teams as they often struggle to defeat Ferrothorn quickly, but all of this can be easily solved by just sacrificing one team spot for Magic Bounce support.
7. Espeon with Yawn and Xatu with Haze are both perfect counters to Smeargle's Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy.
8. Having a Pokémon completely immune to status effects in one's team is a huge asset.
9. Magic Bounce stops the Copycat Riolu strategy.
In summary:
- Lugia just went from whatever it was before to the best Pokémon in the game after those that control the metagame itself (Arceus and the two dominant weather summoners). Slap one on any team that has an Espeon or Xatu and most of the threats in the metagame become completely non-threats.
- Ho-Oh went from whatever it was before, to one of the best Pokémon in the game after Lugia. I'd say its competitors for that are Dialga, Palkia, Mewtwo and Darkrai, which actually says a lot about Ho-Oh's usefulness considering those other Pokémon are largely indifferent to the weather, whereas Ho-Oh's usefulness is almost completely exclusive to Sun teams, meaning Ho-Oh is actually unviable for more than half of the teams in the metagame. In other words, it is such a powerful Pokémon in the Sun, that I'd say there is very little reason not to use it in any team that contains Groudon (unless it also has Kyogre).
