Announcement Regarding Sleep Clause in National Dex OU: Community Input

[Kyo]

*Please read this entire post carefully before responding in the thread*

A lot of discussion in the last few days has centered around the removal of Sleep Clause in SV OU and subsequent ban of several sleep-inducing moves as well as how this decision might impact National Dex OU if we were to do the same. The National Dex OU council has been discussing this topic internally, and we are now taking the first steps towards determining what potential action towards Sleep Clause should be, if any. To be clear, this is not an announcement that Sleep Clause is being removed nor is it a guarantee that any action will ultimately be taken. Rather, what we would like to do is gather the community's opinion on our course of action in an organized fashion. I will list below the essential questions that we would like you to answer if you choose to post in this thread.

We decided to not take a survey approach in this situation so that users can see, respond to, and express support for any proposals from other users that they prefer while keeping discussion on this topic organized unlike the current metagame discussion thread. This will not be a thread to argue with those you disagree with on this topic and as such we are going to keep this strictly moderated. Sleep discussion in the other thread derailed pretty quickly, so if you don't like what someone is proposing here or feel that it isn't realistic then simply post your own thoughts on how Sleep Clause should be handled. If you are going to respond to someone's post directly, just limit it to an expression of support for their stance.

*Posts in this thread that fail to adhere to the guidelines above or attempt to insult other users/opinions may be subject to deletion*

~~~

Please respond to the following questions:

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
(This shouldn't be primarily focused on any specific Pokémon and how viable or unviable it is in the current meta. We want to know how you feel about the mechanic of sleep, various sleep moves, and Z-Hypnosis as a mechanic.)

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
(Please explain your stance. Note that this potential ban would not include rest, relic song, dire claw, or the effect spore ability. It only applies to moves that directly induce sleep on the opponent as their primary purpose.)

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
(Responding with "No Action" is sufficient if you wish to see no change to the current ruleset.)

 

[Kuhrrohsion]

sleep is generally one of the less problematic things in this metagame right now; No Action

 

[AquiIo]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Imo, sleep moves vary drastically in their healthiness. Spore and Sleep Powder are annoying but do nothing to grass types, thus having counterplay, and both fail on substitute, and Yawn is useful for slowing down setup and giving mons without pivot moves a safer switch out (Torkoal, and to a lesser extent, Hippowdon.). Hypnosis, however, I feel is very problematic in that on mons such as Iron Valiant and Darkrai, with the odds in your favor you're able to steamroll through any checks and setup on anything that might otherwise pose a threat to you.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
I would not be opposed to a sleep ban, but I think simply banning Hypnosis may be a better first step.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic as of right now?
It's fine. Sleep Clause, in my eyes, is enough of a limiting factor to keep what seems like a potentially broken mechanic on paper in check. Z-Hypnosis is a bit uncompetitive, but it's incredibly gimmicky and doesn't see much high-level use as far as I know. Sleep itself is a bit annoying with below 100% accurate moves, though, so I could see action on those.

Do I believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
No, I don't believe it should. Despite the endless discourse of quite poor anti-ban posts in the discussion thread, I still feel that Sleep Clause is something that is a compromise between keeping a mechanic of the game available, while not making it overpowered. I'm certainly open to sway my opinion though.

Is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding sleep?
If we truly want to ban sleep, we could try a ban on all non-100% accurate sleep-inducing moves (so keep Spore unbanned, but ban the rest of the sleep-inducing moves). While I'll concede that this is completely out of left field, I feel that it strikes a balance between RNG determining a game and keeping a status condition in the game without forcing people to move to a different format.

Cheers, and looking forward to some actually good talk in this thread.

 

[sealoo]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?

I think sleep is pretty balanced (with the restriction of sleep clause) and I've never struggled with it personally/seen it get too out of hand (on the occasions it has it is often due to insane luck, which can happen w/ a lot of things in this game with enough attempts)

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?

Yeah, I don't think this entire argument and how it pertains to NatDex especially as opposed to CG OU is founded upon the basis that sleep is broken, rather that Sleep Clause is a poor example of policy and needs to be removed for that reason. Would support sleep clause being gone on that basis since it is a poor representation of tiering philosophy.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
-

 

[red fintans]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Honestly sleep itself is not really too much of a problem; moves like yawn and spore give niches to some mons that are otherwise terrible. As a mechanic, although it is annoying, it is very inconsistent and generally not useful or reliable. If anything, Darkrai is the only sleep user that makes it seem at all problematic (have you ever been swept by z-hypno xurkitree? no ofc not)

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
No, it is fine as is; no action. Sleep Clause has always done its job well

 

[Radical1233]

Nah, sleep is perfectly fine

 

[Nashrock]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
I think sleep in general as mechanic is rng-based, but with the current Sleep Clause, I don't think moves other than Spore is healthy. Especially if you're dealing with fast hypno users like darkrai and ival, hypno not 100% accurate means that you can't safely plan for a sleep sack for it like how you could play against spore. Imagine you send one passive mon for sleep sack and the hypno missed, and that rai gets a free setup and one more hypno chance. Yes, I admit that darkrai and ival are pretty much the only 2 mons that're viable sleep users, maybe only rai. However, it doesn't change the fact that with poor luck you can get swept by some random hypno users. It's clearly a strategy involving more rng than skills, so it's not competitive. There are some other strategies in a similar merit, like para spam and flich spam, but I think sleep is kinda just not as serious as overly luck-related ones like King's Rock but above stupid disrespectful para flinch spams.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
yes, in addition to the ou banlist, ban rest + psy shift also

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
no

 

[about15guys]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
I think sleep is balanced with the current clause, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with it

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
The balance of sleep itself isn't what I have issues with. I have issues with how the balancing was handled. Balancing an uncompetitve mechanic like sleep with a mod sets a really shitty precedent, which is that we can just limit things with mods instead of outright banning them, making building unnecessarily complicated. The other reason why I'd prefer a sleep clause removal and a sleep move ban in general is because while I think some sleep moves are uncompetitive (hypnosis, sleep powder, etc) I also think that a few moves are entirely ok (mainly just yawn lmao, potentially spore). I'd much rather sleep moves be evaluated on a case-by-case basis since some are probably ok, and could even see some niche use in making mons more viable. also people keep saying ban rest + psycho shift but that literally is a total nonissue since that's taking 3 moveslots and even then barely works half the time. Nashrock also brought up good points about how hypnosis on offensive pokemons just has a chance to instantly lose you the game which is really shitty and sleep clause doesnt even help fix.

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
sleep is without a doubt uncompetitive for quite a long time and there isn't much argument for it. It's very much rng based as like what above posts have already said.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Yeah. There's not much of a reason to keep it for newer gens especially. (Emphasize on this one) And there's no real drawback to this except that breloom and smeargle will suffer heavily from this which let's be honest isn't something that many will care about. That's all I have to say.

 

[gudwbs]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
I think luck base sleep move is very unhealthy in the metagame, especially when hitting these kinds of moves can easily win you a game. It is very problematic that pokemons (Darkrai, A-Ninetales, etc) that are good already can use these move. I always believed that sleep inducing moves like spore should be a privilege for less used Pokémon, not making already a good Pokémon even more annoying to deal with, especially when hitting the move requires no skill, but just luck.
Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
As I mentioned before, sleep-inducing move should be a niche to justify using a bad pokemon, and I think moves like Yawn or Rest can be dealt with. I don't think sleep Clause should be removed, but I think we need some action to stop luck based sleep moves from making a metagame that you win if you hit hypnosis or lose if you don't.
Conclusion: No Action, but do something for Z-hypno darkrai, luck based strategy shouldn't be a central part of the metagame

 

[Salt Kitchen]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Sleep Clause is enough of a blanket fix to keep it from being broken and unmanageable, outside of Z-Hypnosis (in my opinion). That said, I do not believe it is healthy even with Sleep Clause in effect. The only case I see Sleep being healthy right now is with Spore, due to the distribution of the move and the accuracy being 100%.


Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Yes, but my reasoning is a bit different than just ban sleep because I want it gone (even though I do). I believe Sleep Clause should be removed because it goes against standard tiering policy. The very first bullet point in this link (Tiering Policy Framework) states that we play with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge. Nowhere in the main series games is there ever anything that emulates Showdown's Sleep Clause. National Dex aims for cartridge accuracy, acting as the metagame that emulates if dexit™ never happened post-generation 7, and using assumption from cartridge mechanics to define it's own.

NatDex still attempts to follow cartridge mechanics to define its own mechanics: Z-moves for example are still using the same base power table that existed in gen7. Of course there are elements in this format that never interacted in an actual game, but, when possible, natdex mechanics are taken from actual cartridge mechanics.

That being said, if Sleep Clause was removed, I believe Sleep would need to be banned.

 

[Local Enthusiast]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Sleep is fine with Sleep Clause as far as I'm aware. The only mon that really uses Sleeping moves in ND is Darkrai, and those sets are hit or miss in terms of consistency albeit when Darkrai manages to get a Hypnosis off it can spiral out of control easily. Plus Sleep moves in such a high offense and high power level meta like NationalDex makes Sleep moves not only easier to prevent (Eterrain teams) but in their inconsistency are usually not worth the cost given how only a few turns can fundamentally decide a match which is why the other problematic Hypnosis user in CGOU being Iron Valiant isn't really using Hypno sets in ND and would rather spend its set on more consistent moves that give larger value overall.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely? If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
No action, at least for now. The only mon worth potentially keeping an eye on is Darkrai which is usually balanced for what the absolute state of the tier is, and if it somehow becomes more of a problem, we can always look at suspecting it in the future rather than going in on a full ban on Sleep moves. Plus, if such a ban is handled where it applies to the lower tiers, I think it will disproportionately harm other Pokemon such as Spore users who depend on Spore for competitive viability in the lower ND tiers more than have a significant impact in NDOU where it only really affects Darkrai.

 

[Velcroc]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?

In my opinion, Sleep as a mechanic is largely balanced here - even under the current Sleep Clause. The one exception is Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree, a potentially uncompetitive (but largely inconsistent) Pokemon. I don't believe in the value of other Z-Hypnosis users like Darkrai, and Hypnosis, in general, often comes with significant opportunity cost when used without the Z-move.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?

No. I think the clause sufficiently addresses sleep for the purposes of National Dex metagame.

I will echo Sealoo in that the discussion around Sleep is mainly around the archaic nature of the original clause and the desire to replace it with a more streamlined rule variant (NOT on whether Sleep is broken on XYZ Pokemon). While I can appreciate the quality of life changes and improvements arising from the modern tiering philosophy, I feel it can be misused the same way Occam's Razor is misused by debate bros. One of the critiques surrounding Occam's Razor is that it can cut too much. Going with the simplest proposals doesn't necessarily mean that the outcome is better or even more productive in the first place. The tiering philosophy right now has noticeable differences from Occam's Razor (mainly because we prioritise metagame health over 'simplicity'), but there are instances where I find it similarly reductive. I'll take the DPP blanket ban on Snow Cloak as an example. The ban struck me more as a bureaucratic desire to fix something that didn't need to be fixed. Snow Cloak in DPP is completely different to Sand Veil. For Snow Cloak to work, you must deliberately add 2 ice types in a metagame crawling with Steel-types and rely on Snow Warning in a metagame dominated by Tyranitar. On paper, both abilities seem to fit under the same "Evasion Abilities" umbrella, but in practice, they are significantly different in both implementation and effectiveness. I'm not bringing this up to slander the DPP council because I'm sure they only had the best intentions when implementing that ban, but I am bringing this up because this move has been vocally criticised for being a reach too far.

I feel the same about a potential Sleep Moves ban in National Dex. In the case of SV OU, you could argue that Iron Valiant and Darkrai did constrain the metagame, be it on the builder or in-game, which necessitated a total ban on sleep. While the discussion did touch on the archaic nature of Sleep Clause, the underlying premise WAS the fact that sleep was unhealthy in the metagame thanks to Iron Valiant + Dakrai, with Amoonguss, Lilligant-Hisui, Breloom and other Spore/Sleep Powder users as a supplementary argument. Not only does sleep have more counterplay here (more grass types, electric terrain, etc.), but the sleep abusers have to make concessions of their own if they want to run Sleep, as I alluded to earlier. For instance, Darkrai has effectively perfect coverage in OU with Dark Pulse and Ice Beam, but here you have to make a decision to drop either Focus Blast or Sludge Bomb - both of which have their downsides. Finally, a lot of other abusers (most notably sleep-powder users) aren't good here the same way they are in OU: people have been sleeping on Hisui Lilligant, and both Amoonguss and Breloom find a hard time justifying a niche here.

You could argue that the clause is outdated and needs to be removed, but that would be working backwards from the logic given in the original SV OU policy thread (i.e. we would be arguing: Clause is outdated --> Sleep should be banned, rather than Sleep is broken in the metagame --> Clause is outdated for keeping sleep in check). The distinction is important, given how 1) the original SV discussion was structured (updating the sleep clause to meet the needs of the metagame) and 2) how this very thread is structured.

Personally, the strongest argument for banning it is political. If all the current gen tiers play under a no sleep-moves clause and we don't follow suit, that is poor optics on the part of the National Dex community. If a justifiable quick ban on Roaring Moon gets ire from the broader community, imagine a disagreement regarding a drastic shift in tiering. It is true that we did break file when we tried to ban Terastalisation twice, but given how muddled and stagnant SV OU was between Home and DLC 2, I imagine history will look upon us fondly. In the case of the Sleep Clause, this seems to be an evolution in how we conceptualise tiering policy. By refusing to "move with the times" and preserving "archaic" Clauses, the National Dex community itself look backwards on top of all the other crap we get. I disagree with R8 on this topic, but he put it beautifully:

R8

Something less tiering minded is that National Dex formats would look stupid if they decide to keep Sleep Clause while the rest of the website removes it - sleep clause has been outdated and archaic for a while, and it is time to finally get rid of it.

I don't think this means we must follow what other people are doing because National Dex (like all formats) has its nuances, but pragmatically speaking, it's beneficial for us to conform. I'd love to keep things as they are, but I am willing to back down if it will lead to more controversy surrounding Nat Dex.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
I gave a long-winded explanation there, but I would like to Keep the Status Quo if possible.

 

[jus]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Originally there was never an issue for me with sleep until darkrai showed up, I mean we all know sleep is rather uncompetitive but it was always kept in check by the sleep clause and limited by the pokemon who can actually learn the inducing moves and make full use of it like Darkrai or Amoongus could. The difference is that Darkrai or Iron Valiant, unlike Amoongus are incredibly fast and strong pokemon with strong moves to back up hypnosis incase it misses (which doesn't seem to be that often in my experience) therefore limiting the amount of counterplay you have against it quite a bit. I believe the actual abusers of it (mainly Darkrai) should be dealt with accordingly but under the clause I think the sleep status itself is balanced.


Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Yes. If all sleep inducing moves were banned entirely then there isn't much reason to keep sleep clause in effect ESPECIALLY if it isn't replicable on cartridge.
I believe the real issue with sleep stems mainly from the move hypnosis (specifically the distribution) and Darkrai in the metagame since before he showed up most if not all of the users of hypnosis/powder were manageable. That being said missing a hypnosis on an incoming sleep sack and then gaining a free turn to setup then gaining another chance to sleep being a strategy of the meta is completely unhealthy imo and I'd be completely fine with the banning of those moves altogether since they are inherently rng based and uncompetitive. However I do truly believe that Spore and Yawn should be exempt from such sleep ban, as Spore has way more counterplay and are limited by the distribution and viability of the Pokemon who can actually use it. Regarding Yawn however I don't really understand how it's getting hit with the stray bullet here as the move itself acts more as a phasing move rather than a direct sleep inducing move like Spore or Hypnosis would. Similar to spore, not only is it also limited to certain mons who can make use of it in their moveset but the counterplay against it is far too great for it to be an issue especially when the only actual viable pokemon who run it are not even used for the purpose of sleeping. Further on what I said earlier about Spore and Yawn being exempt, if this were to happen my answer would change to No on banning the clause as you could make a case as those moves also becoming uncompetitive since you could theoretically put yourself in a position where your whole team is asleep. TLDR imo spore and yawn are healthy parts of the meta, hypnosis is not.

 

[Oculars]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Sleep clause is useful and has done an excellent job of keeping sleep competitive, however I understand its going due to muh tiering policy and muh cartridge *Inserts Natdex Cartridge* and the fact we want tiering to be done in the simplest possible way "modern tiering" or whatever. Sleep is balanced with sleep clause, uncompetitive without it.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
"(Please explain your stance. Note that this potential ban would not include rest, relic song, dire claw, or the effect spore ability)" Yes but only if we axe this BS about not banning rest or relic song, We dont need to 100% copy everything CG OU does and I think we should ban rest due to its interaction with psycho shift (which doesnt exist in cg) and just for consistency. Either ban ALL Sleep moves or ban NO sleeps moves. If sleep is banned, NO mon should be able to fall asleep in a game. Why is secret power 30% sleep considered ok but 50% sleep from dark void isnt? where do you draw the line on RNG sleep? Ban it all including relic song and rest. Dont tell me running Rest + psycho shift + sleep talk is "Unviable" or "wont cause problems" when stuff like Sing and Grass Whistle are equally unviable but would get banned by the current proposal. Banning Rest is about consistency, since its an offensive sleep move when paired with psycho shift and according to everything ive heard it doesnt matter if rest + psycho shift is a good or valid strategy what matters is its uncompetitive and that means it should be banned.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?

Yeah Id like a full ban of all sleep moves without the Big Stall™ Sponsored carve out for stall users to keep rest legal. A solely offensive sleep ban is just a free buff to passive and boring playstyles and I feel a defensive sleep ban is 100% needed to balance it out. Also run a suspect for sleep, literally nobody wants it to be a council vote we want a suspect don't link me finch's twitter post about why they quickbanned it in cg over doing a suspect cause hes wrong and a suspect is the right way to go.

 

[DevilishGreg]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Imo, sleep moves vary drastically in their healthiness. Spore and Sleep Powder are annoying but do nothing to grass types, thus having counterplay, and both fail on substitute, and Yawn is useful for slowing down setup and giving mons without pivot moves a safer switch out (Torkoal, and to a lesser extent, Hippowdon.). Hypnosis, however, I feel is very problematic in that on mons such as Iron Valiant and Darkrai, with the odds in your favor you're able to steamroll through any checks and setup on anything that might otherwise pose a threat to you.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
I would not be opposed to a sleep ban, but I think simply banning Hypnosis may be a better first step.

I strongly agree with this stance on sleep as a mechanic, but would like to see Dark Void, and Sleep Powder banned in addition to Hypnosis.
Obviously with the Sleep Clause intact.

 

[Silveruby]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Sleep has always been an inherently uncompetitive mechanic and the current sleep clause does aid in making it more balanced and competitive but there are shortcomings with the current iteration of Sleep Clause.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Yes. Sleep inducing moves should be banned from any and all tiers including National Dex. The biggest issue with sleep is that sleep is just simply one of the most powerful status inflictions. Barring Freeze ,however Freeze has no moves that can induce freeze unlike Spore or Hypnosis, sleep is so inherently powerful certain pokemons and sets completely revolves around it. For example, Smergle and Amoogus both have certain qualities that make good pokemon in some aspects but neither of them would have a niche in NatDex OU if it wasn't for spore and Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant having to rely on the much less accurate Hypnosis effectively either check an offensive threat slower than them (which is most of the meta) or neutralize their checks switching in. Darkrai and Iron Valiant in particular both have more consistent sets that doesn't rely on the free turns sleep can provide but yet both of these Pokemons do consider Hypnosis (barely a coin toss) over sets like choice specs due to the sole purpose that Sleep can afford it free turns. Sleep is also powerful in it lacks common and splashable counterplay. Paralysis is weaker in comparison to Sleep as most well built teams by default will have an electric immunity so spreading paralysis is a much more difficult prospect and burn can be absorbed by a team's special attacker (whether it be iron valiant or volcarona.) Sleep needs a dedicated sleep absorber (sleep talker) or otherwise you're one team member down and possibly out for 3 turns. Insomnia isn't on the best pokemons and guts sleep talker is far and few between.

 

[Fabriisse]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
As a mechanic , sleep hasn't been an issue since the beginning as nobody ever complained about it so i don't see why sleep would suddenly be unhealthy. Paralysis is largely more rng-based and more uncompetitive as a status than sleep and yet nobody wants to ban it.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
The sole reason for why we're currently talking about sleep is darkrai's unban as it is the fastest sleep user with an absurd coverage and power . I won't elaborate further about darkrai but i don't know why we should be banning a status just for a mon.
If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
Well since Darkrai has been unbanned with a huge ratio in his favor , i would say keep the situation as it is

 

[Shlartog]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Sleep is not problematic in my eyes. Even if devastating, it's rare enough I don't struggle with it. I barely ever see it. Most of the good and accurate sleep moves are blocked by grass types, sub, or even a mon like Garg. and the others are inconsistent enough to usually never show up to games and of course come with the downside of missing and losing games that way. Even if a mon gets slept, there's always a chance it wakes up the next turn and sleep does nothing. It's fine.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Not really. sleep clause is usually a good enough way to mitigate sleep RNG.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
The only problematic sleep right now is Darkrai's (and occasionally Valiants) Hypnosis, which can sometimes either win or lose a game. Which then isn't a problem with sleep, it's a problem with those two. We don't need to upend an entire mechanic just because one mon is being a pest. We just Reban Darkrai and Iron Valiant (Although even then, those sets seem to be the Rarer set then just running a move that actually always hits the enemy and KO's them)

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
sleep as a mechanic is totally alright. It is irrelevant on Most pokémon that have sleep inducing moves, such as watchog, Gallade or mew in the case of hypnosis, victreebeel, exeggcutor and carnivine in the case of sleep powder. On some pokémon it's just a tool that make them better, such as spore On amoonguss and breloom, sleep pow On lilligant/h and tangrowth, or hypnosis On xurkitree. With sleep clause, You easely get to switch and kill it, particularly in the current meta, pretty offensive. Then There is the fact that Most users are off meta. And stuff like sub, Fini And Koko just uh, destroys It. Not to mention that spore And sleep pow is basically annihilated by grass Type, that You can get via Tera lol. Or You play Garganacl XD
Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Nope. Not At all. sleep inducing moves are alright, Darkrai isn't.
If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
I think darkrai can be reffered as the nightmare pokémon, and rightfully so. It IS the cause of all this and for real It is the best decision to ban It and its stupid stats and ability and movepool. it's an action on sleep After all isn't It? No darkrai = No sleep in the current meta. Hypno valiant isn't real. Encore just outclasses.

 

[S0A0M0I0]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?

I'd say it's balanced. Spore users like and are not common in NDOU, meaning the main method of getting sleep is through inconsistent moves like Hypnosis, Sleep Powder or Yawn. Both and can use Hypnosis, but it's much worse than other sets like / attacker or setup attacker (Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Swords Dance). is also a Hypnosis user, but it's not a very good mon regardless, being UUBL, and not even being on the VR. However, as a mechanic, sleep can be played around. completely shuts down most sleep strategies with Electric Terrain, and due to him being a very common mon on both ladder and in tournaments, it doesn't make the mechanic uncompetitive. and other status-abusing pokemon like can manage sleep pretty easily as well. The risk of using these low-accuracy strategies is very high, and sleep as a whole hasn't been a problem in the past, so I doubt adding would've changed anything significantly.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?

No. It's a solid balance between making sleep powerful and balanced, and there is still counterplay to sleep as a strategy. The only good abuser of sleep in my opinion is , and he still has better sets.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?

If we are going to limit sleep in some form, I'd rather just have a hypnosis ban. Only and can appear to be problematic with sleep, however, most other methods of sleep, like Spore, Yawn and even Sleep Powder are not strong mons already (only exception I can think of and , but these mons are niche in my opinion). Also, don't ban Rest because of Psycho Shift, that entire strategy is stupid, every pokemon that gets Rest + Sleep Talk + Psycho Shift have much more effective strategies compared to this. Nuking the viability of mons like is a horrible idea for the sake of "consistency."

 

[hidin]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
When you have a mod in effect to limit a mechanic such as sleep you're going to feel like it's balanced; I feel the same way. However, just one Pokemon going to sleep leads to a lot of volatility in a game. Hypnosis from the likes of Darkrai, Iron Valiant, or even Xurkitree (in the past) feels the most egregious because of the offensive potential each Pokemon have. And sleeping isn't exclusive to these Pokemon too, Yawn can shut down ways to make progress since in most cases you cannot afford to take sleep, niche Sleep Power and Spore Pokemon like Amoonguss and Lilligant-Hisui can still be burdens with their sleeping moves since as I said, it can open up a lot of opportunities not in your favor. While you can consider this whole situation a skill issue, the variability of how long your Pokemon will be sleep for and what your opponent can do after that makes me dislike the mechanic in general.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
Yes. I don't see any reason to not take advantage of this; if it's being brought up as a good solution that won't be the end of the world for the tier, I would absolutely take the chance of banning sleep moves. We have no reason to ban the Pokemon that use sleep or banning the moves they use separately, since that's just ridiculous. Mostly talking about a Hypnosis ban or a Darkrai re-ban, both of which are not going to happen at all most likely. Psycho Shift could be banned too since you can get a good 2 Pokemon slept if the Sleep Talk roll is in your favor, but I don't want to ban Rest at all.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
It should be a council vote, and if that's not deadset I will push to make sure it is. Voting for mechanics in a suspect is a misuse of the tiering system and wasn't done in the past with other stuff like Bright Powder or King's Rock, and that whole topic had nearly the same amount of discussion and controversy as this Sleep Clause topic has now. Would also like to bring up while we don't have to follow SVOU, if other tiers are making correct decisions I don't see much reasons to not follow in their footsteps. I feel like that argument can only be applied to Pokemon and such and not whole mechanics, since every tier has them.

e: i do not mean terastal when i say mechanics, i mean like mods on the game. dont retort me saying that its like tera please

Sorry if I sound abrasive but I'm really fed up with this whole topic and believe that it can really just be handled in the creation of a Google Sheet voting slate. Feel free to respond

 

[CEO_of_Piss]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic as of right now?
I believe that hypnosis strats are a bit rng heavy, even by pokemon standards. Dark void isn't as bad because it can't give a speed boost to set up a sweep like z hypnosis can, sleep powder is probably fine because the abusers aren't as good and because 75% accuracy makes it a lot more consistent.

Other applications of sleep like yawn and spore are entirely fine and removing them for no reason would be bad

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
No. No reason to do that

Is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding sleep
Would be open to the idea of banning the move hypnosis specifically. I don't think there is enough of a consensus on it to warrant a quick ban but a suspect test or some kind of community vote seems reasonable. After that if people still have problems with sleep then we should look at sleep powder and dark void

 

[1234hjkl]

What is your stance on sleep as a mechanic under the current Sleep Clause? Is it balanced or uncompetitive?
Never had a problem really, I believe in NatDes sleep is not really a problem, especially with all the terrains, clerics, status absorbers, and other ways to handle it. Anyway my stance is no action needed and it's balanced here.

Do you believe Sleep Clause should be removed in favor of banning sleep-inducing moves entirely?
No. Unlike the other metas we have plenty of ways to keep sleep in check. We got plenty of clerics, good terrain setters and really the only thing resembling an issue are the Z-Hypnosys mons like Valiant, Darkrai and Xurki and with all those mons except Xurki I rather use better sets.

If responding no to the above question, is there other tiering action you would like to see taken regarding Sleep Clause or sleep mechanics in National Dex OU?
No action needed in my opinion but if it comes to votes let it be a council one so we can close this topic fast and move on.