I dont get the need to frame it as if the world will end and RBY will die if counterplay doesn't get made for these teams inmediatly. Counterplay develops naturally. If you want to be the one to spur this metagame change, go ahead, nothings stopping you. Zapdos was doing extremely poorly just a few months ago, and now we have a couple months of people using thse teams a decent bit, and Zapdos finally getting a high winrate, and you get impatient and act as if this is a massive issue. Counterplay will of course come up agajnst these teams in due time, and the meta has been really healthy in the meantime, so I dont get the need to be dramatic about it.
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OU RBY OU Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Enigami
- Start date
people are stuck in a bit of a rut, but this is nothing new
peasounay dominated everyone for multiple years running very few teams
this is just how the game goes; someone optimizes a certain structure or style really well because it's strong in the meta, it dominates for a while, it becomes the meta, then the antimeta shows up (in peasounay's case victreebel, in our modern case zapdos), then that just wins consistently for a while because people are still playing the old stuff, people stop playing the old stuff, and we're back in a state where everything's up in the air again
no need to stress for "the progression of the metagame". you just need to wait for the one guy who figures it out and pushes things forward. (or you can become that guy. that'd be the best way to do it. speaking from experience, wins speak louder than forum posts)
peasounay dominated everyone for multiple years running very few teams
this is just how the game goes; someone optimizes a certain structure or style really well because it's strong in the meta, it dominates for a while, it becomes the meta, then the antimeta shows up (in peasounay's case victreebel, in our modern case zapdos), then that just wins consistently for a while because people are still playing the old stuff, people stop playing the old stuff, and we're back in a state where everything's up in the air again
no need to stress for "the progression of the metagame". you just need to wait for the one guy who figures it out and pushes things forward. (or you can become that guy. that'd be the best way to do it. speaking from experience, wins speak louder than forum posts)
GOOD POST MR JVG
Team Italy was predicting Zapdos to be back quite soon, there it is. Unfortunately that was not going to happen against Team Germany: you guessed it by their avatar, they love Rhydon. Zapdos/Rhydon/Water has always been one of the main themes of RBY OU. I assume Alakazam/Starmie/S4 to be the third team. The metagame is small and it becomes boring at times, but we have seen a huge variety of teams and even new movesets in the recent history of the tier.
As most people said, someone is going to fix this. I predict IceLax to be a major contributor.
As most people said, someone is going to fix this. I predict IceLax to be a major contributor.
I'm pretty sure the 3 teams being referred to are MIe Egg Don/Mie Egg Zap/Gar Egg Mie, but the point still stands that their relative dominance is temporary and people will find a way to take advantage of them + other teams still exist and do well, ofc including Zam Egg Mie.
my money is on boomlax, really helps the zapdos match ups and enables different structures
either way I agree there's no reason for HB/EQ to make up >90% of the 4th moves you see on lax, which is what it feels like right now. that should be the place people look to if they want to find edges against the current meta, HB/EQ are 'safe' but they are not necessarily the strongest
anything that appreciates the removal of chansey and has answers to snorlax other than your own; boomlax teams can afford to be soft vs zapdos since they doesn't need to worry about lax getting bullied by it nearly as much. backmie fits these criteria and enables boomlax a lot by itself already. articuno gets a ton better with boomlax (maybe you even manage to remove cloysters for it), moltres likewise appreciates it. backzam can be a demon with chansey out of the way too.
normal teams can just run boomlax for flexibility though. it's just a nice bailout button, you can play it to just get out of a lax mirror that you're losing or whatever. it's good
Earthquake, hyperbeam, selfdestruct, snorlax wants all those moves indeed, maybe its time to get back to the physlax days, infortunately this set is very prone to paralysis and thus requires support to be played optimally, hard to fit but its definitely the one set that will cover most match ups and set up tauros or the 6th like no others. Fitting it on good teams is difficult however
I have personally cooked with a physical Counter Lax set recently (after toying a bit with Counter Chansey), with good prediction it annihilates Tauros and eases mirroring duels with opposing Lax.
It could be suboptimal since I am not a top RBY player but I drop it here.
It could be suboptimal since I am not a top RBY player but I drop it here.
A reply to 第二十五夜.
Will a new move set or team structure ever displace the current meta? Sure. Will anything ever change? No, not really.
The list of viable Pokémon isn’t getting bigger, and all of The most impactful moves and mechanics will most likely continue being the most impactful moves and mechanics.
Now as for the lack of variety being called unhealthy some may agree some may not. I find myself asking what about this format is health? The answer I’ve come to is - not much…
hope that helps
Will a new move set or team structure ever displace the current meta? Sure. Will anything ever change? No, not really.
The list of viable Pokémon isn’t getting bigger, and all of The most impactful moves and mechanics will most likely continue being the most impactful moves and mechanics.
Now as for the lack of variety being called unhealthy some may agree some may not. I find myself asking what about this format is health? The answer I’ve come to is - not much…
hope that helps
What are peoples opinions on Tauros' 3rd and 4th move options that aren't Blizzard and Earthquake?
Imo there's some interesting options:
Thunderbolt for me is the one I'd consider running the most, getting that extra damage on cloyster can be huge as it can be a big wall to break through otherwise.
Lately Rest has been "trending" as an options for bull. I can see the longevity being appealing but I'm not sold on it being a viable option in a metagame where crits have such a high crit chance, and Tauros is bulky but it's not taking hits as well as say Snorlax, who can afford to rest more often than bull (can get back vs stoss, parad enemy lax, Chansey, etc.) Still I'd have to go through relevant calcs to see which mons actually let the bull wake up from rest.
Fire blast is a niche option as it just gives you better odds on the 1v1 vs other tauros, but it's overall not seen as something worth running considering how valuable other options are.
Finally, some people even run stomp for the flinch chance but yeah...weak otherwise and niche option.
Tldr: tbolt>rest>>stomp/fire blast imo. Still, these are all niche options as most games you're mostly gonna be clicking body slam and hyper beam.
Tbolt Tauros feels like it’s in a funny spot rn with the sheer amount of Zapdos and Rhydon and the general lack of Cloyster. It’s kind of funny to me because theoretically Cloyster is a huge pain in the ass for Rhydon and is still hard to find entry on for Zapdos without losing precious HP to Clamp, but the fact that nearly every team has a Starmie now and most of those are SurfBolt means it has to contend with that, and ofc most teams want their own Starmie (and often Eggy) so you’re giving up one or both of these to avoid getting murdered by Zapdos.
I think Rest is a nice lifeline that can let you have a good matchup vs paralyzed Chansey and kind of create an uncomfortable situation for your opponent in specific endgame scenarios. As for Stomp, yea thay moves bad ai wpuld honestly rather use Tail Whip to 1v1 paralyzed Starmie more reliably if you yourself are paralyzed.
I think Cloy is best used with ReflectLax as a midgame wallbreaker/cleaner, with Hyper Beam Rest is good but it leaves you struggling to break Chansey and paralyzed Starmie.
Rhydons are very often dropping rock slide for the defense reducing moves so I think Cloy is still a significant issue, but yeah on the Zapdos interactions I agree Cloy can be pretty exploitable, I just haven’t seen a cloy in so long my neurons have turned off gg
What's hyper beam good for? Increasing the odds of clamping down a paralyzed chansey/starmie/slowbro/jynx?
It feels super situational, and at 75% accuracy, not even good. In most cases if you clamp down a paralyzed mon, the best move is usually pivoting though, clamp is just gen 1 u-turn.
When you compare it to Rest and Explosion, Hyper Beam just has no place.
Set is always Blizzard, Clamp, Rest and Explosion.
What is the general opinion of Jolteon among high level players? It seems to be hanging on to its OU ranking by a thread based on the submissions so far from qualified voters. I am not specifically asking about Jolteon in lead or in the back, or any specific Jolteon set, just Jolteon as a whole with its multitude of sets, positions, and viable eams.
Players shy away from it because of consistency issues. Zapdos is more dangerous as a sweeper, and as an anti-lead Jolteon doesn't have access to Recover and Psychic (think about anti-leads: Alakazam and Starmie).
So, I think this is where the moveset talk (and lead versus back) becomes relevant: you need to find a reason to use it over something else. What can Jolteon do that other ones don't, or at least what can it do better?
I think the 4atk moveset can hurt all of Starmie, Exeggutor and Chansey early in the game and this is also why it looks like a lead to me.
Many years ago S4 were automatic inclusions to teams, and I started trying some S3 and exotic builds. Jolteon showed a high win rate when it was used in the lead position, and an unimpressive one when used in the back.
I think Jolt is being a little underrated right now. It is, generally, not as scary to face as Zapdos, but it definitely has uses.
But lets actually list out (some of) the downsides and upsides (relative to Zapdos).
Disadvantages:
- The quake weakness means its endgame matchups arent as good. Eg. Zapdos is only marginally unfavoured against Tauros in a 1v1 and typically at least cripples it, whereas Jolteon just loses quite badly. This has become particularly relevant lately when dealing with leerdon.
- It's special is lower. For instance, this means it needs crits to 3hko Lax. You might think, never mind it crits enough, but otoh, so does zapdos, which can 2hko with a crit, unlike Jolteon.
- Jolteon needs both pin missile and double-kick to get past Eggy and Chansey, whereas Zapdos does it just with drill peck.
- Drill peck is scarier for Jynx and Alakazam than anything Jolteon has.
- Zapdos is able to effectively carry agility, meaning it can still clean after it gets paralysed.
- Jolteon relies on double-kick to break Chansey which is counterable.
- Zapdos resists grass, and beats the snot out of Victreebel.
- Zapdos has better physical resistance, so, for instance, its less likely to get chipped into hyperbeam range.
- Zapdos is better at switching into Eggy.
Advantages:
- Jolteon is significantly favoured against enemy Zapdos, especially with rest.
- Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that safely switches into Chansey.
- Without the Ice weakness, and with an electric resistance, Jolteon gets a lot more opportunities to switch in. It can much more safely just switch directly into any water type, whereas Zapdos usually has to be at least a little careful to avoid a blizzard.
- Jolteon can use rest to clear its paralysis more effectively. This also helps it switch in more easily, since it can usually clear its paralysis later in the battle anyway.
- Jolteon is the fastest Pokemon in every game it plays. It doesnt need to Agility to clean. Naturally outspeeding Starmie and Tauros is Huge.
- Jolteon has a higher crit rate.
- Provided the Chansey doesnt have counter, Jolteon is more heavily favoured into (ice beam) Chansey than Zapdos.
- Jolteon does a lot more damage to Rhydon.
So you just have to think about when these downsides dont matter and when the upsides do. You'll find lots of opportunity to use it over Zapdos.
But lets actually list out (some of) the downsides and upsides (relative to Zapdos).
Disadvantages:
- The quake weakness means its endgame matchups arent as good. Eg. Zapdos is only marginally unfavoured against Tauros in a 1v1 and typically at least cripples it, whereas Jolteon just loses quite badly. This has become particularly relevant lately when dealing with leerdon.
- It's special is lower. For instance, this means it needs crits to 3hko Lax. You might think, never mind it crits enough, but otoh, so does zapdos, which can 2hko with a crit, unlike Jolteon.
- Jolteon needs both pin missile and double-kick to get past Eggy and Chansey, whereas Zapdos does it just with drill peck.
- Drill peck is scarier for Jynx and Alakazam than anything Jolteon has.
- Zapdos is able to effectively carry agility, meaning it can still clean after it gets paralysed.
- Jolteon relies on double-kick to break Chansey which is counterable.
- Zapdos resists grass, and beats the snot out of Victreebel.
- Zapdos has better physical resistance, so, for instance, its less likely to get chipped into hyperbeam range.
- Zapdos is better at switching into Eggy.
Advantages:
- Jolteon is significantly favoured against enemy Zapdos, especially with rest.
- Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that safely switches into Chansey.
- Without the Ice weakness, and with an electric resistance, Jolteon gets a lot more opportunities to switch in. It can much more safely just switch directly into any water type, whereas Zapdos usually has to be at least a little careful to avoid a blizzard.
- Jolteon can use rest to clear its paralysis more effectively. This also helps it switch in more easily, since it can usually clear its paralysis later in the battle anyway.
- Jolteon is the fastest Pokemon in every game it plays. It doesnt need to Agility to clean. Naturally outspeeding Starmie and Tauros is Huge.
- Jolteon has a higher crit rate.
- Provided the Chansey doesnt have counter, Jolteon is more heavily favoured into (ice beam) Chansey than Zapdos.
- Jolteon does a lot more damage to Rhydon.
So you just have to think about when these downsides dont matter and when the upsides do. You'll find lots of opportunity to use it over Zapdos.
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I believe the meta has never been more against Slowbro than it is right now; Thunderbolt Starmie is quite common, Seismic Toss on Chansey is being used probably more than any other attacking move (bar maybe Ice Beam, but even then its definitely close), and Zapdos and Rhydon smash it to pieces, with Slowbro teams being unavoidably weak to Zapdos (SlowDon and SlowJolt are awful). I almost forgot to mention that Exeggutor is being used on a vast majority of teams, which definitly does standard TWave Rest Slowbro no favors. Two of Slowbros worst matchups being on ~70% of teams is awful for it.
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I agree with the overall idea: terrible time to bet on Slowbro and I ranked Jolteon higher indeed.
Add HB Snorlax, and Selfdestruct too. SToss Chansey actually is a good thing for Slowbro, Thunderbolt can take it down with a crit. Granted, Toss can put it in range more easily when it's +6 and that pairs well with Exeggutor and Snorlax's HB or Rhydon who just tries the 3HKO or spams Substitute brilliantly.