Raikou - Thunderstruck

[d2m]

Hasn't Raikou done its job if you just sacrificed a poke to be sure to break a sub, and the worst part is, you haven't killed Raikou, you haven't even crippled it. You bring out your counter, Raikou switches out to something that scares off you counter, then when Raikou finds the opportunity it comes back in, what are you going to do, sacrifice a poke again?

No, he hasn't. Read my post about offensive teams earlier.

To give a brief overview:

On Offensive teams: Raikou is going to set up on a weakened sweeper that it can threaten out with the OHKO. If you stay in, you break it's sub and put it in revenge killing range, or you give your revenge killer a free switch-in. If the sweeper is weakened in the first place, he's probably already gotten a kill and "done his job" anyway.

On Defensive/Balance teams: Using a "Hard Counter" like the ones I named in my last post are feasible.

 

[Alaka]

So when your pokemon killed a Pokemon and left itself open for a revenge kill it was job well done, but when Raikou killed a Pokemon and left itself open for a revenge kill it can switch out of and come back later to end up in the same situation, it didn't fulfill its duties, isn't that racist against electric dogs or something :P

 

[whistle]

@ lemmiwinks's response to my post. there isn't much of a point in listing something like gallade as a counter to raikou if your argument is that gallade is using light screens / encore. making a list of pokemon that check raikou should use the most common few sets of that pokemon; otherwise, there's nothing stopping almost any pokemon from becoming a raikou check or counter. i'm not saying that innovation or creativity is bad -- my point is that with the list format you used, it's somewhat misleading to specify non-standard sets.

@ weakening counters debate. alakapimp please give me any sweeper in uu and i will show you how its counters can get weakened over the course of a normal battle. if your only raikou check is synthesis-less non-spdef venusaur you will lose but that is because you are stupid, not necessarily because raikou is broken.

this isn't to say that you don't have a point -- i just think it needs to be much more nuanced to become a formal argument for why raikou is broken. it seems like there are two hidden justifications in your argument, and imo these two are the crux of the weakening counters debate.

1. how easy is it to weaken raikou's counters for it to sweep? is this weakening due to raikou's power (in which case it would be bl) or is it because honchkrow is pursuiting stuff (in which case honchkrow is bl) or is it because raikou just happens to be a fast late game sweeper (in which case it could be uu)?

2. how many counters does raikou have? if it has tons of counters, it's much harder to get them all weakened. if it only has a few (which you'd have to prove) then it's much easier to weaken them.

i think those two points take into account the characteristics pretty well (of course there are many other factors, this is just one part of the debate) and this discussion would make a lot more sense if everyone started framing their arguments in terms of those.

 

[Heysup]

You are, and since the metagame shift, have been VASTLY overestimating the ease at which things like SR, Spikes, Subs, CMs, and other things can set up.

I really am not. If you can't get spikes and Stealth Rock up, you really fail at UU at this point. Froslass is amazing, there are no two ways about it. People use their Froslass counters in the lead position because they need to. All you need to do is NOT use Froslass in its lead position and you can easily set up spikes. Cloyster sets up spikes with ease against almost any wall, including stuff like Rhyperior, Donphan, and even heavy hitters like Honchkrow and Azumarill. With Pokemon like Donphan, Regirock, (Registeel and Chansey, your only "Raikou Counters"), Rhyperior, Uxie, and the like, there are so many ways to set up Stealth Rock. There are so many ways to stop Rapid Spin without making your team worse or weaker in any way. You can even use something as basic as a Life Orbed heavy hitter to put pressure on your opponent to the point that they can't spin without losing a huge portion of their Pokemon. There is also the easy-to-use Double Ghost with all the tiers awesome Ghost-types. Even a single Ghost with TrickChoice stops all Foresight spinning.

And I'm sure I don't need to show you how many Pokemon Raikou can set up at least 1 CM or Sub on. It is quite impressive.

Raikou also has a multitude of counters depending on which HP it takes, as well as being "Hard countered" by the 2 premier special walls in UU (Registeel and Chansey). Raikou is nothing but a Mismagius clone with less defensive options (he can only dream of 3 immunities), worse type coverage, and slightly better Spe and SpA. In the same way as Sub/CM Mismagius, it can easily sweep vast portions of the metagame with it's counters weakened or removed, or if it is behind screens and gets to set up on something that's encored, non-threatening, etc. Replace "Raikou" with "Mismagius" or really "Any offensive threat" and your logic remains the same.

I SO called this!

Yes, I know your going to say "it's the same for all Pokemon lololol", but think about it, is it? Think of it this way, Raikou has a smaller "X" than basically any other Pokemon because of its Speed. Very few, if any, Pokemon can match the lack of counters / checks to a Raikou running rampant with calm mind or sub with even minimal support.

Anyways, aside from my awesome argument prediction skillz, you are shrugging off the biggest difference between Raikou and Mismagius (and every other sweeper).

Its Speed and SpA are what make it so unstoppable in common conditions. Being 361 Spe allows it to out speed probably 98% of the metagame off the bat. Its SpA (plus a more powerful STAB attack), allow it to bypass a huge chunk of could-be counters because of how hard it hits.

Saying that a Sub and a CM are common battle conditions is preposterious. You could make a case for one or the other,

I said Sub/CM. Meaning other or the other. So yea....

but anyone that lets Raikou set up a sub and a CM without a Chansey, Registeel, Clefable, or other hard counter on their team deserves what's coming to them. They either misplayed against Raikou, overlooked Raikou in team building, or foolishly sacrificed their Raikou counter (or, in the case of nearly every team I run "Raikou Counter Strategy") earlier in the game.

That doesn't happen because they are foolish. It happens because Raikou's counters are so easily passable with very minimal support.

All you're doing is tinkering with the definition of "common battle conditions" at this point. A decent case could be made for SR, and a decent case for a sub on a switch, but with many available spinners and the fact that nearly every poke in the metagame can at least break Raikou's sub (even if it means sacrificing themselves if he attacks instead of subs), means they aren't necessarily "common battle conditions".

Clearly, as I have pointed out, this is false. Spinning won't happen if the the person with entry hazards makes any sort of effort to block/prevent spin. You would be (well you shouldn't be but...) surprised at how many Pokemon CANT break Raikou's substitute. Most Pokemon can try but Raikou can just Calm Mind up if it needs.

Entry Hazards, and 1+ turns of set up definitely common battle conditions.

2. how many counters does raikou have? if it has tons of counters, it's much harder to get them all weakened. if it only has a few (which you'd have to prove) then it's much easier to weaken them.

I'm pretty sure you did most of that for us :).

Anyway, Raikou is BL because its counters list goes to shit after very minimal support (not necessarily Honchkrow) such as entry hazards which are stupid easy to get up with Froslass around. Spikes would still be pretty easy to get up even if Froslass wasn't around, but Froslass does make that job 10x easier. I'm trying to say that I think Raikou's BL status is helped, but not caused by Froslass or Honchkrow (who are both possibly BL material anyway, especially Froslass).

 

[d2m]

So when your pokemon killed a Pokemon and left itself open for a revenge kill it was job well done, but when Raikou killed a Pokemon and left itself open for a revenge kill it can switch out of and come back later to end up in the same situation, it didn't fulfill its duties, isn't that racist against electric dogs or something :P

It's a response to people saying Raikou runs through offensive teams because it's only checks are things only used on defensive balance or stall.

If there was a theoretical pokemon that ran straight through offensive teams, (let's call him Yanmega) he would be a worthy BL candidate.

As it stands, though, Raikou requires a Sub set up to be effective and at least 1 boost to sweep. It cannot straight OHKO almost anything with a neutral hit and no boost. Thus his BL status under the offensive characteristic is determinate on the ease with which it can set up. Thus, if it can set up easily against offensive teams and thus sweep with little to no effort, it is BL.

My point is that it's sub is hardly sturdy, and if it CMs on any sort of decent physical hit, it leaves itself wide open to priority/scarf/faster poke revenge killing. Thus it is not difficult for it to get 1 kill on an offensive team (who has to view their team members as disposable, because there are no dedicated walls or straight counters on a heavy offensive team), but it is very difficult for it to sweep.

The arguments for many pokemon, and the argument "1 Kill means it's done it's job" stems from it being able to remove a key team member. I contend on heavy offense that it cannot remove a "key" team member as all it could realistically do is end a sweep from a slower poke, then be instantly forced out or revenge killed.

Stall or balance, on the other hand, have myriads of options to counter Raikou. Support Zam with Encore can come in and Encore Raikou's sub, Clefable can come in on sub and Encore either the CM or take the +1 T-bolt and give Donphan/Dugtrio/Rhyperior et. al. a free switch in. Registeel and Chansey both wall Raikou and EQ and Stoss respectively break subs and threaten it.

 

[BurtonEarny]

d2m:

It really seems like you are just trying to attack people rather than have a legitimate argument.

Picking apart the argument of someone else and tearing it down in no way builds up your own... it just makes you look like someone who is trying to rock the boat. Actually, post bashing has been your main form of argument and that makes for a terrible one yourself. Make YOUR claim based on YOUR calcs and YOUR thoughts etc., and don't craft an argument that revolves around tearing your opponents down. Let your own ideas speak for themselves and people will be far more likely to take you seriously.

 

[d2m]

I really am not. If you can't get spikes and Stealth Rock up, you really fail at UU at this point. Froslass is amazing, there are no two ways about it. People use their Froslass counters in the lead position because they need to. All you need to do is NOT use Froslass in its lead position and you can easily set up spikes. Cloyster sets up spikes with ease against almost any wall, including stuff like Rhyperior, Donphan, and even heavy hitters like Honchkrow and Azumarill. With Pokemon like Donphan, Regirock, (Registeel and Chansey, your only "Raikou Counters"), Rhyperior, Uxie, and the like, there are so many ways to set up Stealth Rock. There are so many ways to stop Rapid Spin without making your team worse or weaker in any way. You can even use something as basic as a Life Orbed heavy hitter to put pressure on your opponent to the point that they can't spin without losing a huge portion of their Pokemon. There is also the easy-to-use Double Ghost with all the tiers awesome Ghost-types. Even a single Ghost with TrickChoice stops all Foresight spinning.

And I'm sure I don't need to show you how many Pokemon Raikou can set up at least 1 CM or Sub on. It is quite impressive.

1: I really don't feel the need to dignify this stuff with a response as it was covered by Lemmiwinks and BnE very well earlier.

2: Name 1 even semi-offensive poke that can't break Raikou's sub.

I SO called this!

Yet didn't do anything about it aside from that.

Anyways, aside from my awesome argument prediction skillz, you are shrugging off the biggest difference between Raikou and Mismagius (and every other sweeper).

Its Speed and SpA are what make it so unstoppable in common conditions. Being 361 Spe allows it to out speed probably 98% of the metagame off the bat. Its SpA (plus a more powerful STAB attack), allow it to bypass a huge chunk of could-be counters because of how hard it hits.

There are 2 pokemon with speed higher than Mismagius and slower than Raikou: Espeon and Froslass. The former is nearly always choiced or a baton passer and can't take Mismagius's Shadow Ball on the switch or when it hits the sub. The latter is almost exclusively a lead.

The argument stands, there's nothing notable that outspeeds Missy and doesn't outspeed Raikou anyway. You're also ignoring the fact Missy has 3 immunities to set up on (meaning there are many things that straight up cannot break it's sub) and the fact it has better type coverage, both of which makes up for a slightly lower BP STAB attack.

This is not to mention Mismagius is much more versitile with the addition of NP and generally a vastly wider movepool than Raikou.

I said Sub/CM. Meaning other or the other. So yea....

And the counters change depending on the battle situation and which one it has up.

That doesn't happen because they are foolish. It happens because Raikou's counters are so easily passable with very minimal support.

Literally, the crux of this argument is Venusaur, nobody seems to have used any other example to prove that point.

Clearly, as I have pointed out, this is false. Spinning won't happen if the the person with entry hazards makes any sort of effort to block/prevent spin. You would be (well you shouldn't be but...) surprised at how many Pokemon CANT break Raikou's substitute. Most Pokemon can try but Raikou can just Calm Mind up if it needs.

Entry Hazards, and 1+ turns of set up definitely common battle conditions.

See 1)

I'm pretty sure you did most of that for us :).

Anyway, Raikou is BL because its counters list goes to shit after very minimal support (not necessarily Honchkrow) such as entry hazards which are stupid easy to get up with Froslass around. Spikes would still be pretty easy to get up even if Froslass wasn't around, but Froslass does make that job 10x easier. I'm trying to say that I think Raikou's BL status is helped, but not caused by Froslass or Honchkrow (who are both possibly BL material anyway, especially Froslass).

Again with the "Froslass is god" argument that you keep reiterating even after people prove you wrong time after time.

 

[d2m]

d2m:

It really seems like you are just trying to attack people rather than have a legitimate argument.

Picking apart the argument of someone else and tearing it down in no way builds up your own... it just makes you look like someone who is trying to rock the boat. Actually, post bashing has been your main form of argument and that makes for a terrible one yourself. Make YOUR claim based on YOUR calcs and YOUR thoughts etc., and don't craft an argument that revolves around tearing your opponents down. Let your own ideas speak for themselves and people will be far more likely to take you seriously.

I already did, did you miss it?

It started with me making an argument "Raikou is not BL based on the fact he can be dealt with under standard battle conditions by all kinds of teams without huge over specialization". I backed that up in my first posts and subsequent ones with strategy suggestions on how to deal with Raikou, lists of Hard Counters and checks, etc.

Then people argued against my points, so I argued against theirs. That's how arguments work. You make your point, someone raises objections, you show why those objections either do not apply to you or are false.

 

[Alaka]

One important point you keep missing d2m is that simply because Raikou is open to revenge killing doesn't mean it gets revenged killed. In fact more often than not Raikou will go out to an answer for what you are attempting to revenge kill with, and then come back in later. You keep repeating that weathering down counters is an argument fit for any sweeper, but the same thing holds true for allow a kill and then revenge kill. Garchomp could be revenged by Froslass, or if low enough aqua jet from Azu, but you certainly aren't arguing that Garchomp wouldn't be broken in UU.

The whole well your argument applies to any pokemon thing can be applied to almost any argument, the difference between pokes being the degree of truth. Yes a Nasty Plot Pikachu could sweep if all its counters were gone, but that is a much more daunting task than removing Raikou counters who number far less and are much less a certain thing. That is the difference, what few things stop Raikou are too easily weakened to a point that they no longer wall.

 

[Heysup]

1: I really don't feel the need to dignify this stuff with a response as it was covered by Lemmiwinks and BnE very well earlier.

Yet didn't do anything about it aside from that.

See 1)

Again with the "Froslass is god" argument that you keep reiterating even after people prove you wrong time after time.

AKA: You couldn't think of a counter-argument. No one has argued these points with me. When Lemmiwinks and/or BnE decide to do so, there might be a valid argument on the table for "Raikou is UU". Unfortunately for Raikou you can't seem to do justice.

2: Name 1 even semi-offensive poke that can't break Raikou's sub.

Flawed logic. How about I'll list all the semi-offensive Pokemon Raikou can set up a Substitute or Calm Mind against via forcing out/ease of setting up Calm Mind. These are using "standard sets". So Blastoise doesn't have Earthquake etc.

Note: these ARENT Hidden Power based at all. I'm pretty well only using Thunderbolt, Substitute, and Calm Mind here.

Blastoise (Goes first and can set up a sub after a CM. Threatens with STAB Tbolt as well.)
Drifblim (Can Calm Mind up and set up a sub and threatens with Tbolt)
Espeon (Can Calm Mind first and beat it. Though, SpecsEspeon can make it really difficult for Raikou to set up)
Froslass (it can set up one before Taunt)
Houndoom (Goes first and can set up a sub after a CM.)
Lanturn (Goes first and can sub "reliably" after a CM (it can possibly get a sub up before that)
Magneton (resists Magneton's STABs and goes first + sets up Sub after a CM)
Mesprit (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Milotic (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM. Also threatens with Stab Tbolt)
Mismagius (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Moltres (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM and threatens with STAB Tbolt)
Omastar (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM and threatens with STAB Tbolt)
Rotom (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Sceptile (Either on the revenge kill, or if Sceptile is locked into an attack, Raikou sets up a sub after a CM)
Scyther (Goes first, can set up a Calm Mind on a resisted Aerial Ace or Brick Break at worst, and easily OHKO at any time with Tbolt)
Slowbro (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM, also threatens with STAB tbolt)
Spiritomb (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Typhlosion (With Stealth Rock, Eruption won't hurt much, but it wouldn't be crazy if you argued that this wasn't on the list).
Uxie (can't break Sub at all)
Weezing (can't break Sub, never mind after a CM)

ALL of these Pokemon are forced out or are Calm Mind bait. Before you even think of saying "But they can Sac themselves to stop Raikou like wtf", actually think about it (for once). If these Pokemon don't switch out, Raikou can and will set up Calm Minds against them. They are almost always better off switching out than flat out losing to Calm Mind Raikou via letting it set up. If they stay in, then +6 Raikou actually has zero counters.

The argument stands, there's nothing notable that outspeeds Missy and doesn't outspeed Raikou anyway. You're also ignoring the fact Missy has 3 immunities to set up on (meaning there are many things that straight up cannot break it's sub) and the fact it has better type coverage, both of which makes up for a slightly lower BP STAB attack.

Yes there is. Ambipom ties at best. Foe Mismagius (don't act like this isn't important), Scyther, Quick Feet Ursaring are all out sped. In addition Espeon and Froslass (hugely important). Keep in mind, this is the "not as important" aspect of why Raikou is better than Missy (and basically all other sweepers). It also threatens out so many more Pokemon (look at the list above).

While you can argue all day that Missy's immunities are better than Raikou's defenses, you are flat out missing the point. Raikou is BULKY. It will set up Calm Minds and substitute on Pokemon that Missy can only dream of (look at the list above...). Raikou also only has one weakness, and there is no priority Ground attack. Missy is easily revenge kill-able by anything with any sort of Ghost or Dark priority (Gallade ring a bell?). Physical defense is also important in general, and while Raikou has nothing to phone home about, Missy's defense is pathetic. It is beaten by Azumarill, who can't even manage 50% on most Raikou.

Immunities are important for switch-in power, but the lack of weakness, and just defenses in general are much more important than immunities for a Calm Mind sweeper.

Then people argued against my points, so I argued against theirs. That's how arguments work. You make your point, someone raises objections, you show why those objections either do not apply to you or are false.

You are using that word very loosely in the bolded area. You also failed to do the last step :(

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

It seems that a lot of discussion has taken place overnight, so I will just respond to the few key points directed at me:

You will not lose the majority of matches because of many many many reasons. Lets take a look:

a) You are still a better battler than 99%+ of the UU community. Using a overspecialized "bad" Pokemon doesn't change that.

b) You are using it to check/counter a broken threat that is almost uncheckable/counterable otherwise. When the opponent uses some other threat, you will lose more matches than you would on average. This does NOT mean you will lose the majority of matches. This means you would lose less than you would if you used a "better" Pokemon in that slot against the teams without this broken threat.

This is where the major, but completely understandable, flaw in your argument is. You(Lemmiwinks MkII, one of the best/better UU battlers), can use these Pokemon and have a hi win rate. The rest of the community cannot use them remotely as well as you (as a great battler) can.

So yes, you can get away with using a "lesser" Pokemon and still win most of your matches. Raikou is still forcing you to lose "more" matches than you normally would.

Well then why don't you try looking at it from my perspective. I have gone into the new metagame with a completely open mind as to what may be Suspect and what will not. I have made and tested several teams that I have had decent success with, and all of them were designed with a multitude of threats in mind; Raikou is only one of them. With every team that I have used, Raikou has happened to be a minimal threat, and I have certainly encountered more problematic Pokemon. Therefore I don't see Raikou as a broken Pokemon, after all, why should I? It hasn't appeared to give any of my opponents an unfair advantage against me.

Now of course you say that this is because I am a better player than the majority of UU battlers (your words, not mine). So does that mean that my opinion counts for less than the so-called lesser battlers, if at all? I obviously can't deliberately lower my skill level in order to see it from the more average player's perspective (I hesitate to say average explicitly. After all, you are also an above average player, so if that was the condition then your opinion would also count for less). If you have any suggestions as to how I could do this then I'm all ears. So where is the line drawn? Is it that anyone better than a certain percentage of UU players doesn't get a say due to having a biased opinion, and if so, where is the bar set? 70%? 80%? But moreover, how do you even measure that?

As far as I'm concerned, this shouldn't matter. All that should matter is that I have tested against the metagame fairly and objectively, and have found no evidence for Raikou being broken. I don't see why that opinion should count less just because other players lack the skill and creativity to reasonably deal with it. They theoretically have exactly the same teambuilding options as me after all. I have said many times that I don't care for what worse players do because it is impossible for me to make a judgment from that point of view anyway.

And where do you get this idea that the Pokemon I use are somehow 'lesser', and that my win rate suffers because of them? You have no leg to stand on for making this baseless claim, and for your information, for every working and stable team I have made, my win rate has barely fluctuated at all. Ampharos, for example, was something I used during the Crobat and Staraptor era, and it definitely pulled its weight for the team back then, not 'lesser' in any sense of the word. Whether it would be so viable now is irrelevant; you use what is generally most useful for your team given the metagame around you. Back then, I voted three suspects (Abomasnow, Staraptor and Froslass) to BL, and would've voted Shaymin too had it passed the nominations that round, so clearly I am not being stubbornly against calling anything broken just because I am able to win most of my matches. I just didn't happen to think that Raikou in particular was overpowering, and it is the same situation now.

@ lemmiwinks's response to my post. there isn't much of a point in listing something like gallade as a counter to raikou if your argument is that gallade is using light screens / encore. making a list of pokemon that check raikou should use the most common few sets of that pokemon; otherwise, there's nothing stopping almost any pokemon from becoming a raikou check or counter. i'm not saying that innovation or creativity is bad -- my point is that with the list format you used, it's somewhat misleading to specify non-standard sets.

Why not? Gallade can counter Raikou with such a setup whilst still providing good general team support and a decent offensive punch when needed. I have tested it and it works for certain teams, and that is all that matters. Why do I have to be limited to the bog-standard sets? Is the metagame not allowed to adapt somewhat for a new environment in terms of Pokemon and sets, particular for a change as significant as this last one? And no, it is clearly not the case for almost every Pokemon, otherwise my list would actually include almost every Pokemon. There was nothing misleading about my list for anyone with decent reading comprehension, as I did not specify that it only applied to standard sets.

Thats a really flawed arguement, not rational at all. I basically want to take the basis of your arguement and sum it up in one sentance:

If someone is able to win a majority of their matches there are no broken Pokemon in that metagame.

That is what you said shortened, but obviously makes no sense as somebody has to win every game.

That isn't what I said at all. I was saying that I have found Raikou to be easy to prepare for when building a team, and that there seems to be no sort of unfair advantage for the Raikou user that would be required in order for it to be broken. As for your second point, see my response to Heysup's post, as the end of that clearly refutes the strawman you have tried to bring up here.

 

[d2m]

One important point you keep missing d2m is that simply because Raikou is open to revenge killing doesn't mean it gets revenged killed. In fact more often than not Raikou will go out to an answer for what you are attempting to revenge kill with, and then come back in later. You keep repeating that weathering down counters is an argument fit for any sweeper, but the same thing holds true for allow a kill and then revenge kill. Garchomp could be revenged by Froslass, or if low enough aqua jet from Azu, but you certainly aren't arguing that Garchomp wouldn't be broken in UU.

The whole well your argument applies to any pokemon thing can be applied to almost any argument, the difference between pokes being the degree of truth. Yes a Nasty Plot Pikachu could sweep if all its counters were gone, but that is a much more daunting task than removing Raikou counters who number far less and are much less a certain thing. That is the difference, what few things stop Raikou are too easily weakened to a point that they no longer wall.

I'm not saying Revenge killing is the only reason it's not BL. What I'm saying is that its only chance to meet the offensive characteristic is for it to be able to set up. Then I go on to say that Stall has Registeel, Chansey, and Clefable among others that can halt it's setup by threatening it and sponging it's hits. I say after that that offense can easily sac whatever weakened sweeper they have out at the moment to prevent setup, then switch to something more threatening. It's still technically a "revenge kill" but it completely prevents setup.

Without setup, Raikou's 1 and only set is defeated.

Edit: Let's draw a comparison with recently voted BL Yanmega. Yanmega was BL under the offensive condition because the Specs/Tinted Lens set could come in on anything that was slower (a significant portion) and didn't carry a strong enough priority attack to do 50% (i.e. Not Honchkrow) then proceed to 2HKO damn near the entire tier as well as landing a huge hit on whatever actual counter you did switch in.

Raikou, on the other hand, is only that threatening if he gets a sub up on the switch which blocks Status, 1 attempt at a revenge kill, and guarantees at least 1 boost. The only way he can get a sub up is if he is able to reliably switch in to a vast majority of the tier and set up against all styles of teams, instead of being instantly threatening like Yanmega. I have shown through all my posts that both styles of teams have myriads of options in preventing said setup. While it can occur and he is extremely threatening if allowed to set up, he is not BL in the way Yanmega was because he cannot reach the Offensive Condition under anything but extraordinary circumstances (i.e. actually getting +1 behind a sub).

AKA: You couldn't think of a counter-argument. No one has argued these points with me. When Lemmiwinks and/or BnE decide to do so, there might be a valid argument on the table for "Raikou is UU". Unfortunately for Raikou you can't seem to do justice.

Read the gigantic compendium thread and Lemmi and BnE's posts about spinners from earlier. You're under the mistaken impression that saying something a bunch of times in a row makes it true.

Flawed logic. How about I'll list all the semi-offensive Pokemon Raikou can set up a Substitute or Calm Mind against via forcing out/ease of setting up Calm Mind. These are using "standard sets". So Blastoise doesn't have Earthquake etc.

Note: these ARENT Hidden Power based at all. I'm pretty well only using Thunderbolt, Substitute, and Calm Mind here.

Blastoise (Goes first and can set up a sub after a CM. Threatens with STAB Tbolt as well.)
Drifblim (Can Calm Mind up and set up a sub and threatens with Tbolt)
Espeon (Can Calm Mind first and beat it. Though, SpecsEspeon can make it really difficult for Raikou to set up)
Froslass (it can set up one before Taunt)
Houndoom (Goes first and can set up a sub after a CM.)
Lanturn (Goes first and can sub "reliably" after a CM (it can possibly get a sub up before that)
Magneton (resists Magneton's STABs and goes first + sets up Sub after a CM)
Mesprit (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Milotic (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM. Also threatens with Stab Tbolt)
Mismagius (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Moltres (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM and threatens with STAB Tbolt)
Omastar (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM and threatens with STAB Tbolt)
Rotom (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Sceptile (Either on the revenge kill, or if Sceptile is locked into an attack, Raikou sets up a sub after a CM)
Scyther (Goes first, can set up a Calm Mind on a resisted Aerial Ace or Brick Break at worst, and easily OHKO at any time with Tbolt)
Slowbro (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM, also threatens with STAB tbolt)
Spiritomb (Goes first and sets up a sub after CM)
Typhlosion (With Stealth Rock, Eruption won't hurt much, but it wouldn't be crazy if you argued that this wasn't on the list).
Uxie (can't break Sub at all)
Weezing (can't break Sub, never mind after a CM)

ALL of these Pokemon are forced out or are Calm Mind bait. Before you even think of saying "But they can Sac themselves to stop Raikou like wtf", actually think about it (for once). If these Pokemon don't switch out, Raikou can and will set up Calm Minds against them. They are almost always better off switching out than flat out losing to Calm Mind Raikou via letting it set up. If they stay in, then +6 Raikou actually has zero counters.

My argument is thus: Raikou cannot set up a substitute against nearly any decent offensive threat in the tier. Thus he cannot establish a position with which to sweep with little effort, thus he is not BL. Let me rework your list for you.

Bold- Raikou can set up on an offensive set.
Italics- Heavily dependent on set and situation, but it is possible he could set up.
Normal- Incorrect.

Blastoise- Offensive set easily breaks subs with Surf, Scarf set (becoming increasingly popular) does major damage with Water Spout.
Drifblim - Shadow Balls break subs up to +2, not to mention Unburden makes him outspeed and (at least mine) always ran D-bond for the end unburden kill.
Espeon - Specs Espeon can make it really difficult for Raikou to set up and even if Raikou beats a Sub/CM set eventually, it won't do so with a sub out.
Froslass - Assuming Froslass is an offensive threat is assuming it's on a Hail team and Blizzard easily breaks subs and does significant damage even if it CMs once.
Houndoom - Largely depends on set. NP Mixdoom (my favorite set) plays mind games with Sucker Punch and Fire Blast. The only set he'll get out of with a sub intact is a pure special set without NP, which is just a bad set.
Lanturn - assuming an offensive set (because if you read the challenge it at least qualifies as semi-offensive, so using a defensive poke with an offensive set would be the only way to put them on the list), sub is still broken by surf after +1. With a specs hydro pump it's even more.
Magneton - Depends on Hidden Power, but in all likelyhood, yes, he will set up on Magneton.
Mesprit - Only if it's a special utility set, most people nowadays run physical scarf which means she outspeeds and breaks subs with Zen Headbutt.
Milotic - Assuming offensive set (LO with at least some SpA investment), it will break +1 Subs with Surf and +2 with Hydro Pump.
Mismagius - If it's coming in on missy, it either has a boost or a sub, meaning it stats up alongside Raikou and, in the end, will at least leave Raikou without a sub if not dead depending on the amt of boosts it started with.
Moltres - Fire Blast still breaks a +1 sub.
Omastar - the only offensive Omastars I see are Specs/LO on RD teams, and a RD boosted (or just plain max SpA) Surf still breaks even +1 subs outside of rain.
Rotom - completely depends on set but I'll grant it's possible.
Sceptile - Obscenely situational and set dependent. Would go way too far into theorymon here either way.
Scyther - Easily breaks subs with near anything, especially after a SD.
Slowbro - Offensive Slowbro sets? I can only think of his own CM set where Psychic still breaks subs at the same lvl of boosts.
Spiritomb - If it's not carrying an attack stronger than Pursuit, yes, but CB pursuit still breaks subs. Still, there are offensively viable threats Raikou can set up on, I'll grant that.
Typhlosion - Really?
Uxie - Zen Headbutt or Offensive CM set easily beat Raikou's sub (the latter can beat Raikou himself if Uxie has some HP/SpD EVs)
Weezing - There's really no such thing as an offensive Weezing set, and if there was one it'd carry Explosion.

Yes there is. Ambipom ties at best. Foe Mismagius (don't act like this isn't important), Scyther, Quick Feet Ursaring are all out sped. In addition Espeon and Froslass (hugely important). Keep in mind, this is the "not as important" aspect of why Raikou is better than Missy (and basically all other sweepers). It also threatens out so many more Pokemon (look at the list above).

Playing a 50/50 speed tie on Ambipom and Scyther isn't much special, Froslass is largely irrelevant, and QF Ursaring can't survive against an HP Fighting Missy.

While you can argue all day that Missy's immunities are better than Raikou's defenses, you are flat out missing the point. Raikou is BULKY. It will set up Calm Minds and substitute on Pokemon that Missy can only dream of (look at the list above...). Raikou also only has one weakness, and there is no priority Ground attack. Missy is easily revenge kill-able by anything with any sort of Ghost or Dark priority (Gallade ring a bell?). Physical defense is also important in general, and while Raikou has nothing to phone home about, Missy's defense is pathetic. It is beaten by Azumarill, who can't even manage 50% on most Raikou.

Immunities are important for switch-in power, but the lack of weakness, and just defenses in general are much more important than immunities for a Calm Mind sweeper.

Shadow Sneak is used by 2 Pokemon with any regularity: Gallade and Spiritomb. Gallade is easily OHKO'd by any sort of boosted Shadow Ball, and Spiritomb is well-recognized as a Missy counter along with Registeel.

You are using that word very loosely in the bolded area. You also failed to do the last step :(

The fact I've repeatedly shown you're either warping my argument then arguing against it (see list) or just plain ignoring my argument and making your own logic is good enough for me.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

d2m: whilst I agree with the idea that a carefully played heavy offense team can play around Raikou quite comfortably, I am really not sure what you're trying to prove with all those situational examples of special attackers. As far as I can see, it doesn't prove anything at all, since the argument isn't entirely (or even slightly?) focused on the idea that Raikou destroys offense and nothing else. It isn't that unfair an assumption that Raikou will often find plenty of setup opportunities against special attackers in general, given that it is definitely the best in UU at doing so. But really the issue is more to do with how well Raikou can take advantage of said setup opportunities, and how easy or difficult it is for the opponent to deal with it in such a situation. And are you seriously trying to tell us that moves like Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are reliable methods of stopping Raikou from setting up, factoring in Pressure, Sub and the miss rate?

 

[d2m]

d2m: whilst I agree with the idea that a carefully played heavy offense team can play around Raikou quite comfortably, I am really not sure what you're trying to prove with all those situational examples of special attackers. As far as I can see, it doesn't prove anything at all, since the argument isn't entirely (or even slightly?) focused on the idea that Raikou destroys offense and nothing else. It isn't that unfair an assumption that Raikou will often find plenty of setup opportunities against special attackers in general, given that it is definitely the best in UU at doing so. But really the issue is more to do with how well Raikou can take advantage of said setup opportunities, and how easy or difficult it is for the opponent to deal with it in such a situation. And are you seriously trying to tell us that moves like Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are reliable methods of stopping Raikou from setting up, factoring in Pressure, Sub and the miss rate?

All I'm saying is that stuff he threatens out can still often prevent setup.

A +1 Raikou behind a sub will decimate an offensive team, usually scoring at least 2 kills, the goal is to prevent that and the sub is by far the easiest part to prevent. The suggestions above were last-ditch maneuvers, not intended to be actual, reliable checks or anything.

The situation I'm describing is all too common for offensive teams:

X kills Person Y's Z.
Y sends in Raikou.

Raikou uses Sub predicting the switch because it can outspeed and finish off X.
X attacks and breaks sub.

Raikou uses <whichever move kills X>.
X dies.

Send out A where A is a revenge killer.

Raikou cannot sweep.

 

[Heysup]

I don't feel like addressing your posts anymore d2m, all you are doing is either (a) making shit up, or (b) making irrelevant arguments, or (c) making shit up.

Here is an example of (b), because you made a whole list of examples of (a) and (c) a couple posts up:

X kills Person Y's Z.
Y sends in Raikou.

Raikou uses Sub predicting the switch because it can outspeed and finish off X.
X attacks and breaks sub.

Raikou uses <whichever move kills X>.
X dies.

Send out A where A is a revenge killer.

Raikou cannot sweep.

Why wouldn't Raikou just set up Calm Mind in that scenario? Why wouldn't Raikou just attack?

"Who cares what stupid players do?" as Lemmi would say.

 

[Iluvtogekiss]

Gonna agree with what Lemmi says about Raikou not feelin nearly as dangerous to me as Gallade and other things and that it really hasnt been a really major threat for me yet. At the moment it really dosent feel suspect at all.

 

[franky]

Raikou is defenitely a threat, but in the same seat as Yanmega back then. Yanmega only become a threat once the others were banned. I believe raikou will survive this voting period and will be sent to BL the next test.

 

[Iluvtogekiss]

Just because it is a threat, dosent mean it should be an instant suspect.
I think we could all agree that Swords dance Venusaur is a pretty big threat at the minute but I think almost nobody would put it up for suspect.

 

[Thund91]

Just because it is a threat, dosent mean it should be an instant suspect.
I think we could all agree that Swords dance Venusaur is a pretty big threat at the minute but I think almost nobody would put it up for suspect.

Because there are 50 counters for it.

 

[Iluvtogekiss]

What I sort of meant is that just because somthing is quite dangerous and you feel a little uncomfortable or "threatened" by it's presence dosent mean you should claim it is suspect straight off. Venusaur probably wasnt really a great example there but I think you probably understood what I was trying to say.

 

[Thund91]

What I sort of meant is that just because somthing is quite dangerous and you feel a little uncomfortable or "threatened" by it's presence dosent mean you should claim it is suspect straight off. Venusaur probably wasnt really a great example there but I think you probably understood what I was trying to say.

I did. (:

But i'd still say Raikou is a suspect.

 

[Rolf]

Gonna agree with what Lemmi says about Raikou not feelin nearly as dangerous to me as Gallade and other things and that it really hasnt been a really major threat for me yet. At the moment it really dosent feel suspect at all.

I'm also going with this. I really haven't had any problems with Raikou 6-0ing me, or sweeping in general.

I've found that Specially Defensive Gallade does a great job stopping any Raikou not carrying Shadow Ball, while Registeel with EQ takes care of any other set.

If there's anything that comes up that makes me crap my pants, it's Swellow. My team at the moment has no problem handling the current suspects at all, and Raikou is definitely the one I have the least problem with.

 

[Heysup]

I'm also going with this. I really haven't had any problems with Raikou 6-0ing me, or sweeping in general.

I've found that Specially Defensive Gallade does a great job stopping any Raikou not carrying Shadow Ball, while Registeel with EQ takes care of any other set.

If there's anything that comes up that makes me crap my pants, it's Swellow. My team at the moment has no problem handling the current suspects at all, and Raikou is definitely the one I have the least problem with.

Perfect example of why those desperate gimmicky "bad" counters are in fact "bad". Sure, that Gallade stops Raikou, but it also opens you up to 20 more threats (such as Swellow).

This is and example of sacrificing too much to deal with Raikou.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Swellow easily checks and revenges Gallade regardless of what set it is using, so that isn't a good example of anything. I could just as easily say 'sure, using Gallade this way does nothing to help more against Swellow, but it can burn and cripple other common switch-in checks such as Spiritomb, Venusaur or Ambipom.

You can gain just as much as you sacrifice, if not more if you choose your set well.

 

[Heysup]

Firstly, a specially defensive Gallade will still be checked by all of those physically based Pokemon.

Second, the point is all that SpD Gallade does is check Raikou...maybe something else, but I doubt it. It loses all of its sweeping power, revenge killing power, and pretty much its ability to function up to par.

It's an overspecialized Pokemon that will fail you every time that Raikou isn't in the battle. And still, probably in that battle too against one of the other 5 Pokemon.