Raikou - Thunderstruck

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Firstly, a specially defensive Gallade will still be checked by all of those physically based Pokemon.

Second, the point is all that SpD Gallade does is check Raikou...maybe something else, but I doubt it. It loses all of its sweeping power, revenge killing power, and pretty much its ability to function up to par.

It's an overspecialized Pokemon that will fail you every time that Raikou isn't in the battle. And still, probably in that battle too against one of the other 5 Pokemon.

Why don’t you just try pulling your head out of your ass for once and start seeing things with more of an open mind. Honestly, your stubborn closed-mindedness sickens me. Here is an example of how I used a supporting Gallade in UU:

Gallade @ Leftovers
Steadfast
Adamant
244 HP / 56 Atk / 188 SpD / 20 Spe

~ Brick Break
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Will-o-wisp
~ Light Screen

Is this set only good for beating Raikou? No way! Brick Break is reliable STAB without drawback, and reliably breaks screens, which is particularly useful given that Gallade is the only Fighter that isn’t destroyed by Psychic from the likes of Uxie and Alakazam. Shadow Sneak still 2HKOs Missy and Alakazam, as well as 2HKO Froslass after SR, and this spread can actually comfortably take an unboosted Shadow Ball in the meantime. Will-o-wisp is great because a lot of things that initially switch in to Gallade will be relying on physical attacks (stuff like Spiritomb, Venusaur, Nidoqueen, even various Normal type checks expecting SD or Shadow Sneak) and these can get burned on the switch, which can really benefit some physically frail sweepers you may be carrying. The most common Flash Fire Pokemon (Houndoom) wouldn’t dare switch in. Finally, Light Screen provides the special defensive support for the team, and combined with possible burns it can really ease your attempts to set up sweepers safely. It also acts as an extra buffer against special attackers that Gallade would love to come in on like Raikou and various bulky Waters, as well as Pokemon that may want to switch in like Moltres.

So clearly Gallade can deviate from his standard and still be of great overall use on a team rather than be a one-trick pony. If you’re going to continue with all this pathetic ignorance, whether it’s just to try and weakly reinforce your side of the argument or not, then I don’t see why I should continue responding to you and taking you seriously.

 

[Erazor]

Let's not get onto a tangent here guys. There's a Gallade thread, but w/e.

Raikou is on the fence for me right now. On one hand, it has that great Speed and Special attack, along with lots of set up fodder(like slowbro, froslass, etc). It's versatility with Hidden Power is also threatening. Using Camperupt? Oops, HP Water!

On the other hand, the Hidden Power is also a double edged sword. Each Hidden Power exposes itself to different checks, and results in coverage issues. Ice gives the best coverage, but is too weak to do real damage to stuff like Steelix and Camerupt.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Has anybody else actually tried using Lanturn to counter Raikou? Because I've been using him and I've been getting terrible results. Raikou might be doing piss poor damage if it's not carrying a SE Hidden Power or Shadow Ball, but piss poor is still more than Lanturn will be doing back to it if Raikou is carrying Lefties. I'm running Hydro Pump on my Lanturn, and it STILL doesn't break Raikou's Subs after a single CM, so after 3 or 4 boosts a Surf probably isn't going to even break Lefties recovery.

I've actually been thinking about going physical on Lanturn, since an Aqua Tail only needs an investment of 44 EVs to guarantee the Sub breaks:

163 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (90 Base Power): 85 - 102 (25.15% - 30.18%)

This has the added benefit of hitting Gallade, Chansey, and other such special walls harder, and Lanturn can actually run a full physical moveset with Return and Sucker Punch (why he learns this, I have no idea, but I suppose it's better than no-appendages Dugtrio learning it...) and possibly even Bounce or some supporting move like T.Wave, Rest, Sub, etc....

Or maybe I should stop dreaming and use Chansey instead.

 

[Lee]

iirc Lemmiwinks used a Waterfall Lanturn with some Atk investment to counter SubCM Raikou during the last suspect test, but you're still going to lose to the more offensive versions which I gather are becoming increasingly popular. I certainly wouldn't go all physical either - Lanturn has some excellent special attacks at his disposal.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

You don't just stick a bunch of physical attacks on Lanturn and expect it to work well as an attacker. That would be such a horribly outclassed set that even Lanturn's unique typing wouldn't come close to making up for it. As Lee said, it is in Lanturn's high-powered special attacks where it has a decent power output, but even then it is nothing worth writing home about. You should only even consider Lanturn as an answer to Raikou if your set is using physical attacks for a more general purpose. In the case of an annoyer set utilizing parafusion, Waterfall is an often preferrable option for its flinch rate to go alongside paralysis and confusion. The ability to beat most Raikou is a welcome added bonus, not something you design your set specifically for.

In short; don't use an all-out physical attacking Lanturn, it will almost certainly be a flop.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Going mixed? I suppose that could work, although I don't think Waterfall is such a good idea. LonelyNess showed that for Waterfall you need to invest so much ATK in order to break Raikou's Subs that you'll either have to remove from SDef, which defeats his purpose of being a special sponge, or from SAtk, which defeats the purpose of going mixed. Or are you suggesting a more offensive variant than a defensive one?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Going mixed? I suppose that could work, although I don't think Waterfall is such a good idea. LonelyNess showed that for Waterfall you need to invest so much ATK in order to break Raikou's Subs that you'll either have to remove from SDef, which defeats his purpose of being a special sponge, or from SAtk, which defeats the purpose of going mixed. Or are you suggesting a more offensive variant than a defensive one?

I wouldn't advocate going mixed at all, particularly if you want to keep sponging special attacks. The only way I could see that working is by using some kind of Agilty sweeper set with Waterfall, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, but that kind of thing is badly outclassed by Lapras IMO.

Pretty much the only Lanturn set I've had decent success with was this one back in the first phase:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Volt Absorb
Sassy
40 HP / 132 Atk / 128 Def / 208 SpD

~ Waterfall
~ Discharge
~ Swagger / Confuse Ray
~ Substitute / Stockpile

But this set obviously wasn't meant to deal out direct damage, more to annoy, spread paralysis and force switches. Worked alongside Spikes, Shaymin and Pursuit Honchkrow to wear things down, the common tactic being to try and Swagger the obvious Shaymin / Roserade switch to increase Honchkrow's chances of dispatching them. Pretty much no Flyers like coming in on Lanturn, and can be quite annoying once they lose their Grass or Ground type.

I'm not sure if such a set would be as viable now though.

 

[Lee]

I've found Raikou quite problematic but not so much so that I'd neccesarily back his banishment.

His coverage is always going to leave him exposed to a handful of Pokemon and he's easily checked by a lot of the most used Pokemon in UU (Registeel, Venusaur, Donphan, Ambipom, Honchkrow if it foregoes Sub, Hitmontop etc). He's vulnerable to every form of passive damage and status too and doesn't have much in the way of noteworthy resists. His speed is fantastic but priority is so common in UU that it evens it out somewhat.

I'm well aware of how good he can be though - I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been swept by him on a few occassions. He's one of those Pokemon who can sweep easily but only if you eliminate all of his counters and checks before showing him - I think that's a good thing if anything because it promotes the use of lures and encourages people to play especially conservatively with their Registeels and Donphans (I know I do). Unfortunately Honchkrow is an almost perfect lure for both of the aforementioned Pokemon so it seems as though a Honchkrow + Raikou might be a little overpowering although I suppose that's to be expected when you combine two of the best Pokemon in the tier (so far I honestly believe Honchkrow is more 'broken' than anything else UU btw).

All in all, the jury's still out for me I think.

 

[Heysup]

His coverage is always going to leave him exposed to a handful of Pokemon and he's easily checked by a lot of the most used Pokemon in UU (Registeel, Venusaur, Donphan, Ambipom, Honchkrow if it foregoes Sub, Hitmontop etc). He's vulnerable to every form of passive damage and status too and doesn't have much in the way of noteworthy resists. His speed is fantastic but priority is so common in UU that it evens it out somewhat.

Firstly, against standard SubCM, neither Honchkrow, Donphan, nor Hitmontop can check Raikou. And priority is meh, even Azumarill doesn't manage to 2HKO Raikou with Aqua Jet. Raikou's bulkiness is often underestimated.

Anyways, the big question is "Are Raikou's "counters" too easy to remove and does Raikou set up too easily?" I think the answer to both questions are yes.

 

[SJCrew]

I'm a Raikou-for-BL supporter and here's why:

Timid
252 HP/252 Speed
Leftovers

Sub/CM/HP Ice/Tbolt

I don't know whether or not anyone's using this same set/stat spread, but if not, you should.

HP EVs and leftovers are for longevity so that, ultimately, the only things he's worried about are strong physical scarfers, Chansey, and walls that pack EQ. It's very likely that your opponent either has only one of those or none at all. HP Ice is a wild card, since almost any HP works, depending on what you need covered, but the neutral coverage is better than sex, so it's probably the most preferrable option at this point.

Main point is, so long as Raikou gets in on something that won't threaten him or he can easily kill (CC users, Pokemon suffering the 2-stage drop from Overheat or Leaf Storm, bulky waters, sp. attack walls), he can get a free sub and set up with CM. Full-blown counters are hard to come by since they themselves are very few in number and can easily be stopped by other team members; Raikou being able to chip damage off before switching because of his sub only make things easier.

Through extensive gameplay testing, I've concluded Raikou isn't an unequivocal team sweeper, but it's extremely close and a prime example of the sort of devastation that could overwhelm the entirety of the UU metagame. Any marginally successful team should be carrying a counter for him and/or Raikou himself.

 

[Megapants]

I feel like people overlook Steelix as a means of dealing with Raikou. Unless they run HP Water, they're not gonna be hitting you for much as long as you switch in on the CM or Sub. The likelihood of HP Water Raikou is low because they lose coverage on Venusaur and Torterra, which are only counters if you aren't running HP Ice. With a set of 252 HP/ 252 SDef/ 4 Atk, the moveset being Earthquake | Roar | Stealth Rock | Explosion/Toxic, you can either constantly break their Subs, deal tons of damage with EQ or just Roar them out and you don't even lose the utility that Steelix brings to the team.

Because you have Steelix, Registeel and Chansey to deal with Raikou, I don't feel that he is BL. You also have the option of running a faster, powerful Physical Attacker like Swellow (which you obviously have to be wary of switching in) or a powerful Scarfed Physical Attacker like Gallade to revenge kill.

 

[SevenNights]

I have found in my (rather small) UU experience that Raikou can set up very easily indeed, though this is not a unique characteristic possessed solely by Raikou. What strikes me as interesting about Raikou is the fact that alot of the counters/checks suggested seem to depend on the Hidden Power type it is running. The deciding factor in my mind in the formulation of my own opinion of whether he was BL or UU was Raikou's bulk.With priority moves only really viable as a "finish" to him (Azumaril not being able to 2HKO with Aqua Jet came as a suprise to me) as well as making his Subs that much harder to break. Though, of course, I could be dead wrong. Live and Learn
Also, though I agree with your views on Raikou Heysup, this sentence:
"Anyways, the big question is "Are Raikou's "counters" too easy to remove and does Raikou set up too easily?" I think the answer to both questions are yes."
Isn't grammatically correct. I'm not trying to annoy or nitpick or anything... DON"T HURT ME!

 

[LonelyNess]

I've been asked to post this by numerous people, so now that the deadline for UU essays has passed, I can.

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After much deliberation, I have decided that, if given the opportunity, I will be voting to keep Raikou in the UU tier.

The only conceivable BL aspect that could be applied to Raikou is that of the Offensive Characteristic. However, my personal belief is that not only is Raikou's ability to sweep on its own is not too great for UU, but the ease of which it is supported is not too great either.

Its sweeping sets are relegated to Calm Mind + Substitute, Calm Mind/Charge Beam + 3 attacks (and Life Orb), and Restalk CM. Beyond that and you start to get a bit gimmicky and because of this, right off the bat, there are already a great number of things hindering Raikou from meeting the offensive characteristic for BL.

The first of which comes from the fact that there exist quite a few 100% counters for Raikou, or at least 100% counters for each set. Chansey can take on any set not named RestalkCM. Donphan can take on any set period. Steelix with some SpD EVs can do the same as Donphan. Registeel is a full stop to Raikou (though it does lack recovery). Curse Umbreon can also take on every set. Claydol makes quick work of all Raikou. Specially defensive physical Venusaur can take on every Raikou, Regice can also take on any variant (though this is a bit of a reach considering its use is low).... and this is just to name a few. There are more, though some have to be a bit more specialized to beat Raikou (such as putting more SpD on a Regirock over the preferred Atk EVs)

Simply put, stall is in no way shape or form afraid of Raikou. So in terms of teams that Raikou can hope to sweep, stall is taken off the table almost immediately.
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Raikou is often touted as having an incredible ability to set up on tons of things. However, in practice this is simply not true. In terms of offensive threats (and I am only using offensive threats, because in the previous paragraphs I've already shown how stall could give two shits about Raikou), Raikou's potential set-up bait is kind of limited. This is because though Raikou definitely has fairly good defensive stats, it has hardly any resistances (only three to Flying, Steel, and Electric) that it can get in on, which means that a majority of the time it is going to be hit for at least somewhat significant damage on the switch-in.

In terms of Pokemon in the top 40 that it can actually come in on and set-up easily even including Pokemon that are generally only seen on Stall, you will see that the list is fairly lacking.

#4 - Uxie
#5 - Mismagius
#10 - Froslass
#12 - Milotic
#13 - Spiritomb
#22 - Slowbro
#25 - Blastoise

and that's it... this is far from "80% of the metagame" that many will attempt to say.

Though, to be fair, this list is a bit lopsided as when I say "easily" I mean that these Pokemon have little to nothing to do against Raikou; they're "free set-up." However, it just goes to show that Raikou is not getting in on shitloads of Pokemon and setting up 6 Calm Minds and sweeping teams, as the majority of the top 40 in usage can hit it fairly hard if it attempts to switch in, and with Raikou's lack of resistances, it's not coming in on much that's not hitting it hard.

With that said, you could claim that Raikou doesn't have to switch in to Pokemon to be a threat and force something out and get a free Calm Mind, which is true, but there are so few Pokemon in the top 40 that are threatened by a +0 Thunderbolt that they will switch out and give Raikou that free turn. In terms of being threatened by an OHKO if they stay in predicting that Raikou will Calm Mind, only #3 Honchkrow, #21 Azumarill, #23 Moltres, #26 Kabutops, and #38 Omastar are on the list. Literally everything else in the tier can at least take a single +0 Thunderbolt and return with significant damage that puts Raikou into easy revenge killing range, or outright KOs Raikou itself.

In summary, Raikou does not have enough viable switchins / force outs to consistently get any more than a single Calm Mind, and normally this Calm Mind comes at the expense of so much of its health that it becomes easy prey for the priority laden tier that is UU, and as such, offense and balance come off the table as well as far as teams that Raikou "absolutely destroys."

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This is not to say that Raikou is not a good Pokemon. It is, believe me, I played enough with it to know that it is definitely a top level UU Pokemon. However, it is not so dominating against any of the three major archtypes of teams that it can be said to absolutely blow through any team with certainty, much less the "majority of teams" that it needs to in order to meet the offensive characteristic. In short, Raikou is a very good Pokemon, but BL it isn't.

 

[Scoopapa]

I definitely agree with LonelyNess here. It's easy to slap together a team with no foresight that can get romped by a Raikou, and I think that's what's happening to a lot of people - they just aren't planning for it. It's like Gyarados or Lucario in OU: it can easily tear through unprepared teams, but it can still definitely be prepared for. LonelyNess' list of counters is diverse enough that countering Raikou doesn't even require a certain type of team. Venasuar fit's on just about any kind of team (though if it's an offensive Venasaur it will lose to HP ice), Registeel and Umbreon can work with stall or balance, while Donphan has the Attack to hold some momentum for offensive teams. Swellow is a good check to use on offensive teams, where fast checks are often used in lieu of counters anyway.

So really there's no excuse for always losing to Raikou, other than poor preparation. Have a counter on your team that doesn't occupy a suicide position. Otherwise, make sure you have a couple of decent checks. Basically, all of the things that you would do for Heatran or Lucario in OU.