That's a good point. What are the main threats in this generation and what is the best counters for them? Just saying, having a list might be useful both practically and for future reference
Disclaimer: This is not the most extensive list, but this gives you an overview of the following Pokemon. New techs are invented daily, so some Pokemon may seem scarier or less threatening over time!!!!That's a good point. What are the main threats in this generation and what is the best counters for them? Just saying, having a list might be useful both practically and for future reference
Not so fast! I activate my trap card:
It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.The mon that I think is not getting enough attention for being a focal point of dark's power level is Kingambit. Kingambit provides more to the dark team in my opinion than any of the above listed mons (including Chien Pao). Kingambit is an incredibly strong sweeper with base 135 atk and Supreme Overlord. Kingambit also provides defensive utility with its good bulk of 100 HP 120 Def 85 Sp Def and in its typing of Steel Dark only being week to Fighting, Ground, and Fire. This combination of offensive presence combined with bulk and good defensive typing allows it to differentiate itself from the other premier physical offensive threats of Lokix, Chien Pao, and Meowscarada. Kingambit has good STABs with Kowtow Cleave, Iron Head, and Sucker Punch, and Kingambit has reasonable coverage options of Brick Break, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge. Kingambit also has the ability to boost its incredibly high atk even further using SD. For these reasons, Kingambit can switch in on opposing threats, set-up, and sweep using a combination of its STABs and coverage moves to take-out defensive options and sucker punch to take out more offensive checks.
Some more nuanced points:
Dark lacking hazard removal tends to force it into a more offensive playstyle overall. This playstyle means that many threats on dark teams are frail and fast. Kingambit helps to patch over this weakness by being a very offensive mon that still has quite good bulk. This defensive utility is vital to the success of many dark teams since Kingambit can take a few hits without losing momentum.
Kingambit is also quite oppressive to many types. My experience in Monotype is largely in Poison, Ghost, Dark and Ground, so I will restrict my thoughts to those four. But, from playing dark, I have watched Kingambit essentially solo other types like dragon, ice, and flying. When playing Poison, Kingambit can essentially break through any of your defensive options while your offensive don't check it terribly well in late game. Kingambit (5 allies fainted) does 43%-50% to pex and with SD that suddenly becomes 85%-100%. This means that you are in a game of 50/50s where should you haze or recover or attack with the pex and Kingambit will ultimately win this exchange. Clodsire ignores Kingambit SD but it still get 2HKO'd from full by Kingambit even with full defense investment and only does ~45% with EQ in return, so it is not an effective counter. The only offensive checks that handle Kingambit on poison are Salazzle and Wisp Iron Moth. Salazzle must deal with some 50/50s to check Kingambit because Sucker Punch from Kingambit will OHKO it while if it tries to get behind a sub, Kingambit can continually break subs with its other offensive moves (like Kowtow Cleave). Additionally, flamethrower only does 82%-96% to Kingambit so 2 are required to take it out. Wisp Iron Moth is a more clean Kingambit check but less effective in many other match-ups than scarf or specs Moth. For Ghost, playing around Kingambit involves burning it with Skeledirge or Sableye or tricking it with Gholdengo, but even with that counter play burnt Kingambit will likely pick up more value against ghost than would be expected of most mons in a given matchup. Additionally, Kingambit revenges essentially every ghost mon between Kowtow Cleave and Sucker Punch. For Dark mirror match-ups, Kingambit is quite important because it is a defensive piece that takes fast U-turns well, which the rest of the dark team tends not to do particularly well. Kingambit's bulk also allows it to take a hit from an opposing fast frail sweeper and revenge it or use sucker punch to take out a damaged sweeper. For Ground, they possess the most effective counterplay to Kingambit of these four types, so I would not say it is not particularly effective in that match-up. That said. Due to Kingambit's enormous attack stat, it can still find good value in the Ground match up by Sucker-Punching down Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks or Garchomp from half as well as being able to eat an EQ from Iron Treads or Garchomp. It can also find value from pressuring Quagsire or Clodsire with Kowtow Cleave meaning that even in one of its hardest match-ups, it still has good opportunities to find value.
One point to consider against Kingambit is that Roaring Moon is a physical threat on dark that has defensive utility as well, but I would argue that Kingambit is better in this realm because of steel being a better defensive type than dragon and Kingambit being tankier on the physical side. Additionally, Kingambit hits much harder than Roaring Moon when factoring in Supreme Overlord and Kingambit has access to STAB priority of sucker punch, which Roaring Moon does not. Therefore, Kingambit is more threatening to frail and fast sweepers than Roaring Moon is.
Overall, I would advocate for a Suspect Test of Kingambit in the near future since I believe it is a more problematic mon on dark than is Chien Pao or any other mon in this type.
Sorry for such a long post. Please let me know your thoughts.
Let's also not forget that in a lot of cases, even hanging onto mons that resists Sucker Punch or Defensive walls with five allies fainted after an SD isn't always even reliable. Here are some calcs:It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.
In a vacuum this makes Kingambit not much different from most elite endgame sweepers with priority, but Kingambit's team support renders it perhaps the biggest beneficiary of this generation's Defog restrictions given Sab-Lu's proficiency at establishing and maintaining field control. Types which do not have a viable Defogger (most of them) face significant pressure to either run Boots on everything (Kingambit check included) or break TingSab while getting worn down by chip/Meowscarada/Greninja in order to get off a Rapid Spin before Kingambit and Chien-Pao clean you in the endgame. Though Kingambit does not exert significant pressure in the builder because teams must build with both Dark and Steels in mind regardless I think it exerts an unhealthy amount of influence in most Dark games and will only continue to do so as additional members of the League of Evil are added to the game. As the above user pointed out offensive types in particular tend to struggle: screens are no longer popular in the meta, the distribution Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are poor, and most types other than Water, Poison, and Ground simply do not have the defensive resources to simultaneously fight off Dark's breakers while maintaining enough health to not lose to Kingambit at the end of the game. And yes, while Substitute sets can force the game into a 50/50 allowing both sides the chance to win the best users of Substitute in a world where Kingambit does not exist are historically early/mid-game breakers which tend to not be around when Kingambit is at its most oppressive.
Greninja on the other hand was immediately stupid upon introduction and should have been suspected weeks ago if not for the tournament schedule.
Personally more in favour of seeing actual replays showing this impact in high level games; calc walls seem intimidating but showing a +2 mon with 5 dead homies boosted clicking stab attack into frail resists and getting a ROLL to kill doesn't seem like enough of a measure for power.Let's also not forget that in a lot of cases, even hanging onto mons that resists Sucker Punch or Defensive walls with five allies fainted after an SD isn't always even reliable. Here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 279-329 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flamigo: 297-350 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 278-327 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 393-463 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. It also can live a max defense Body Press, even with no HP investment: 252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 420-495 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Low Kick is also a viable option to take out slower, defensive mons that would resist Sucker Punch.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 544-642 (105.8 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 414-488 (81 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Overall, I generally agree with Dragapult and Bryceyyy's posts. I think Kingambit is obscenely strong and a prime candidate for a suspect test.
I'd like to focus on one part right here:It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.
In a vacuum this makes Kingambit not much different from most elite endgame sweepers with priority, but Kingambit's team support renders it perhaps the biggest beneficiary of this generation's Defog restrictions given Sab-Lu's proficiency at establishing and maintaining field control. Types which do not have a viable Defogger (most of them) face significant pressure to either run Boots on everything (Kingambit check included) or break TingSab while getting worn down by chip/Meowscarada/Greninja in order to get off a Rapid Spin before Kingambit and Chien-Pao clean you in the endgame. Though Kingambit does not exert significant pressure in the builder because teams must build with both Dark and Steels in mind regardless I think it exerts an unhealthy amount of influence in most Dark games and will only continue to do so as additional members of the League of Evil are added to the game. As the above user pointed out offensive types in particular tend to struggle: screens are no longer popular in the meta, the distribution Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are poor, and most types other than Water, Poison, and Ground simply do not have the defensive resources to simultaneously fight off Dark's breakers while maintaining enough health to not lose to Kingambit at the end of the game. And yes, while Substitute sets can force the game into a 50/50 allowing both sides the chance to win the best users of Substitute in a world where Kingambit does not exist are historically early/mid-game breakers which tend to not be around when Kingambit is at its most oppressive.
Greninja on the other hand was immediately stupid upon introduction and should have been suspected weeks ago if not for the tournament schedule.
Why are we trying to live a +2 sucker punch endgame? This has not ever been the primary way of checking gambit for the vast majority of types, and obviously if you limit your checks to such a narrow frame of reference it's going to make the mon look a lot stronger than it actually is.The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame,
Imagine scrappy fighting type.i just wanna say that mono normal seems use\able right now, not great but definitely usable
tbf said scrappy Fighting-type is currently only on two types, but Physical attackers that just hit hard deals with Normal just as well. They dont necessarily need to go for Close Combat if you can kill them all with Icicle Crash / Earthquake / Psyshock for instanceImagine scrappy fighting type.
that was meant to be a joketbf said scrappy Fighting-type is currently only on two types, but Physical attackers that just hit hard deals with Normal just as well. They dont necessarily need to go for Close Combat if you can kill them all with Icicle Crash / Earthquake / Psyshock for instance
The issue with combating Kingambit is that the only time it's actually used is in the endgame. Dark's ability to maintain offensive pressure and basically control the momentum is the reason Kingambit will be able to succeed in most matches. Access to a multitude of breakers like Chien-Pao, Meowscarada, Greninja, and Hydreigon as well as entry hazards from Ting-Lu (Also spin-blocked by Sableye) render teams easily withered down and not defensively stable enough to check Kingambit. If you ask me, the Pokemon is actually as strong as it looks.Why are we trying to live a +2 sucker punch endgame? This has not ever been the primary way of checking gambit for the vast majority of types, and obviously if you limit your checks to such a narrow frame of reference it's going to make the mon look a lot stronger than it actually is.
While yes, it's susceptible to Spikes due to the lack of hazard control on Dark, Sableye is still capable of preventing them from being set in the first place and as I said earlier, Dark pressures teams so immensly, setting up entry hazards can be very risky. You're not typically seeing Kingambit mid-game, let alone early-game, it's simply not even required in most cases to appear. Sure, weaknesses can be exploited but they are irrelevant if Kingambit has a priority move boosted by Supreme Overlord, potentially a held item, and Swords Dance. While yes, Kingambit is reliant on Sucker Punch, it doesn't really need to use it that much due to the opponent's team probably already being withered down.The simple truth is that Kingambit is a mon that has problems getting work done early and mid-game, has an exploitable x4 weakness, along with other x2 weaknesses to common attacking types in fire and ground, is vulnerable to Spikes, and is over reliant on Sucker Punch to hit the vast majority of the metagame. All of these traits can be taken advantage of, which leads to an extensive list of checks and counters.
- Psychic and Normal teams basically already lose to Dark, regardless if Kingambit is used or not.- Psychic teams and some Normal Teams don't even care about sucker punch due to Psychic terrain, making revenge killing Gambit fairly trivial.
- Common users of Trick (Rotom, Gholdengo, etc) can screw with Gambit's sweeping abilities by tricking it a choice item, at which point it can no longer use Sucker Punch effectively.
- Encore users (tinkaton, maushold, etc) make it effectively impossible for gambit to sweep.
- Wisp users can burn Gambit before it suckers (ex: Skeleridge; has Unaware to boot)
- Basically any good user of Substitute (Gholdengo, Volcarona, Gengar, Skeleridge, Salazzle, Scovillan, etc), or Shed Tail (Specs Overheat Cyclizar, Bpress Orthworm) can force Gambit into unfavorable 50/50s where the Sub user wins 80% of the time
- Destiny Bond bypasses Sucker Punch and is an easy way to guarantee Gambit dies
- Faster Priority (Mach punch Pawnot/Breloom, Water Shuirken Specs Greninja on Rain), can OHKO or 2HKO Gambit while bypassing Sucker Punch
- Disguise
- Because Kingambit is usually the last mon out, you can just not give it the opportunity to ever set up late game. This works particularly well when using a type like Fire. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1774591388-89seq2wkot87idc58v9g6dmn5drib3vpw provides a good example of this. While Fire is the best at this, other types are also capable of this with good positioning.
In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((Mono Electric is so bad it can’t even beat Water anymore. Tapu Koko helped them so much. You hate to see it
Those guys definitely help (plus Thunderus) but man, Electric took a hit. Easily one of the best type last gen with loads of auto-wins, now struggles against its own advantages. At least fairy got nerfed too .In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((
Here is the problem, alola rachu absolutely needs terrain. When your terrain setter is as slow as pincurchin, you have a huge problem. Personally I think the cornerstone of electric is koko, zapdos and zeraora. Zapdos is comming back is nice. Iron hands kinda replaced zera but is very slow. Then there is koko. Without koko, you have no way of reliably dealing with dragon and your e-terrain setter is so slow that even azumarill outspeed which is a huge problem. Especially important this gen because water gains access to wake. Without koko, ur not reliably dealing with wake spamming hydro steam + draco.In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((
It's a Fairy-type, How mean can its look be? It's literally a dead hairstyle.View attachment 508314
Roast Me!!!
I am going to need clarification on why you came to this and what it is exactly meant to counter.Roast Me!!!
I don't think you got the premise of the post.I am going to need clarification on why you came to this and what it is exactly meant to counter.
Since it is completely screwed against strong attackers which can obliterate it like Garchomp, Chien-pao, Fluttermane, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo and Iron Hands just to name a few. And against any Ghost-type or mon that runs U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot and I believe Shed Tail they just can just leave for free with no worries. Even against walls it isn't the best option since they can just set up hazards, put it to sleep/Paralyze it or still just threaten to kill it anyway.
See this is more like it.It's a Fairy-type, How mean can its look be? It's literally a dead hairstyle.
I think my roast came out wrong lmao.I don't think you got the premise of the post.
This man want to be perish Trap Azumarill so bad.View attachment 508314
Roast Me!!!