Policy Review Policy Review - Evolutions of Existing Pokemon

[Plus]

There could be people who would vote on niches that would hopefully evolve from Farfetch'd. When many people submit concepts, it's due to wanting an evolution to evolve, not what's best for the metagame. Although this is the saddening truth, I could see many people putting stuff like "Fighting/Flying sweeper" in the concept polls just due to the fact that they want a Farfetch'd evo. It's definitely poll jumping, but it's discrete poll jumping that can't really be punished, since it is still a concept.

You can't stop fanboys in CaP. There will always be some in the project.

 

[the_artic_one]

If EVO was to happen, any Pokemon made would have to be like a CAP in that it has to bring something to the metagame that is needed.

That's not the point of CAP though, the point is to learn about the metagame by tinkering with it and figuring out what makes a pokemon good/bad. Otherwise there would be no need for a concept poll since the only correct concept to do would be decentralizer.

Did the metagame need another fragile sweeper like syclant? Did it need a bulky stat upper like Revanankh, did it need a pokemon that broke the characteristics of it's typing like Stratagem? No, but we made them anyway in the pursuit of knowlage and a better understanding of the metagame.

I support EVO projects because I think we can learn something from looking at a pokemon that is not OU, figuring out why it's not OU, and figuring out what needs to change in order to make it OU without making it overpowered and without making it a completely new pokemon. EVO is useful to us for the same reason that looking at flawed designs is useful to designers. I don't think there's a bridge design course in the world that doesn't study the Tacoma Narrows bridge to figure out the mistakes it's designers made that caused it to collapse. Borrowing an analogy from the CAP mission statement, I'll say that mechanics don't just build cars, they fix them too.

 

[Deck Knight]

There could be people who would vote on niches that would hopefully evolve from Farfetch'd. When many people submit concepts, it's due to wanting an evolution to evolve, not what's best for the metagame. Although this is the saddening truth, I could see many people putting stuff like "Fighting/Flying sweeper" in the concept polls just due to the fact that they want a Farfetch'd evo. It's definitely poll jumping, but it's discrete poll jumping that can't really be punished, since it is still a concept.

You can't stop fanboys in CaP. There will always be some in the project.

"Fighting/Flying Sweeper" is not an acceptable concept to begin with, and would be culled immediately.

Most of the posts against EVO seem to be bitter about what happened last time. Sure, they'll trust the community to build something from scratch that may or may not have its desired effect, but apparently we're not intelligent enough to use a pre-existing template to fill a niche. No, we supposedly devolve into mindless fanboys at the mere possibility of creating an evolution.

As I've said before, EVO will require much more TL policing, but it isn't as if the TL chooses which specific pokemon to evolve will be. There will still be every poll we now have, and the most important thing is getting the concept straight and building a logical list of pokemon that could potentially fill it. This can be left to the TL or to the community, but the fact is anyone proposing a physical sweeping Farfetch'd is out of their minds when there are so many other candidates that could do it better and have stronger arguments.

The requirement of a massive overhaul is a weak argument for an EVO project. All you need to do is state that plainly and police as such.

 

[gorm]

To those saying "we shouldn't be driven by the metagame's needs since this i not strictly CAP's creed," I'd say that given the level of refining we can potentially achieve with EVO, that we should probably take the metagame into account during the process.

Camerupt is a good example of this; we would be able to take on zapdos, scizor, heatran and celebi to an extent given enough of a boost in the right areas. In this way he would be a decentralizing force. Not that we should tailor all future EVO projects to take on only the top threats, but we should be submitting pokemon with niches that will have "potentially metagame beneficial effects" as opposed to submitting them arbitrarily and going through the project "for the sake of learning". Sure we're here to learn but let's make sure we're learning from something worthwhile.

Basically I'd support a submission that involves the "place of the niche in the metagame", but we're getting ahead of ourselves in the discussion &__&

There could be people who would vote on niches that would hopefully evolve from Farfetch'd

this is pretty much cap though isn't it? we won't be really able to refine the product of EVO sufficiently if we have to invent it's niche.

I could see many people putting stuff like "Fighting/Flying sweeper" in the concept polls just due to the fact that they want a Farfetch'd evo.

Whatever mon we choose to evolve is always going to be a measure of what we "want", I don't really think people wanting something for the wrong reasons is a problem if there are good reasons to choose it. Given that the last attempt at EVO got literally derailed by fanboyism (for fetch'd) last time, I'd say that we'll probably be significantly more careful about that kind of thing if we give it another go.

 

[cyberzero]

Camerupt is a good example of this; we would be able to take on zapdos, scizor, heatran and celebi to an extent given enough of a boost in the right areas. In this way he would be a decentralizing force.

As the_artic_one said, if every concept was in the interest of decentralizing, that would be the only viable concept. I, like Magmortified, fail to see how we can't create a Fire/Ground Pokemon that ISN'T restricted by the movepool, stats, and can have a more flexible concept than a Camerupt EVO in CAP.

CAP can do anything and everything that EVO can do, except better. The only advantage is that we save time, and that is unecessary if we're going to lose the quality of the Pokemon we create. CAP will be more thorough and with more freedom to accessibility, we can emulate a niche from the lower tiers rather than evolve a Pokemon in order to do so.

Another reason not to do this is the effect it will have on the UU or LC metagames on the CAP server. We have a lot of people who play UU, especially with the advent of the combination with the BL tiers. We have an LC ladder, the only server with any emphasis on LC at all. Because of this, if we happen to choose a Pokemon that is already OU or high UU with a single evolution, we will essentially kill those metagames.

People can use the Dusclops to Dusknoir as the example. Dusclops was already fully functional in OU, but Dusknoir was an improvement on it. If we follow this example, and have something like Heracross, for example, evolved, then it will force Heracross down on the chain and into LC and UU. This is NOT a good thing.

Some ways to avoid this is to disallow OU's to be evolved, to ban them from the lower tiers, etc., but my basic point is that EVO will create a mess. There are too many extraneous requirements for it to be done as efficiently as CAP.

tl;dr CAP is a better version of EVO because you don't have to deal with as many useless things.

 

[Deck Knight]

As the_artic_one said, if every concept was in the interest of decentralizing, that would be the only viable concept. I, like Magmortified, fail to see how we can't create a Fire/Ground Pokemon that ISN'T restricted by the movepool, stats, and can have a more flexible concept than a Camerupt EVO in CAP.

I sincerely doubt anyone would argue we create a Fire/Ground type with Solid Rock and Magma Armor. Generally CAP brings about entirely new typings rather than rehashing old ones, Arghonaut being the sole exception thus far.

CAP can do anything and everything that EVO can do, except better. The only advantage is that we save time, and that is unecessary if we're going to lose the quality of the Pokemon we create. CAP will be more thorough and with more freedom to accessibility, we can emulate a niche from the lower tiers rather than evolve a Pokemon in order to do so.

CAP is an exercise in building something completely new. It attracts novelty and bandwagoning like the plague, but usually it works out in the end. Thus far we haven't "emulated" any niche from a lower tier, unless you count "Bulky pokemon who refuses to die" as a niche.

Another reason not to do this is the effect it will have on the UU or LC metagames on the CAP server. We have a lot of people who play UU, especially with the advent of the combination with the BL tiers. We have an LC ladder, the only server with any emphasis on LC at all. Because of this, if we happen to choose a Pokemon that is already OU or high UU with a single evolution, we will essentially kill those metagames.

People can use the Dusclops to Dusknoir as the example. Dusclops was already fully functional in OU, but Dusknoir was an improvement on it. If we follow this example, and have something like Heracross, for example, evolved, then it will force Heracross down on the chain and into LC and UU. This is NOT a good thing.

We import our UU from Standard Smogon, and the people who run LC have already decided future EVOs will have no impact on the LC metagame. These arguments are specious.

tl;dr CAP is a better version of EVO because you don't have to deal with as many useless things.

Please qualify "useless things." I can certify that short of a shared typing, CAP will never produce anything remotely like EVO could. Had Arghonaut gotten Water Absorb, I probably would have exploded saying "Why are we making Poliwrath MKII?" It's kind of moot since Poliwrath wouldn't be eligible anyway, but if we're going to clone something we might as well save the trouble and just evolve something.

It isn't really poll-jumping if it's an entirely different process. Nothing necessarily precludes expanding the competitive movepool of a community selected pokemon. I sincerely doubt everyone didn't already have in their heads the likely movepool of a Water/Fighting pokemon, if not the specifics.

 

[tennisace]

I sincerely doubt anyone would argue we create a Fire/Ground type with Solid Rock and Magma Armor. Generally CAP brings about entirely new typings rather than rehashing old ones, Arghonaut being the sole exception thus far.

Fidgit and Stratagem to an extent.

CAP is an exercise in building something completely new. It attracts novelty and bandwagoning like the plague, but usually it works out in the end. Thus far we haven't "emulated" any niche from a lower tier, unless you count "Bulky pokemon who refuses to die" as a niche.

So sell me why we should bother with something from an inferior tier? Because the way I see it said "niches" are in a lower tier for a reason, mainly because they don't work in standard or outclassed.

Please qualify "useless things." I can certify that short of a shared typing, CAP will never produce anything remotely like EVO could. Had Arghonaut gotten Water Absorb, I probably would have exploded saying "Why are we making Poliwrath MKII?" It's kind of moot since Poliwrath wouldn't be eligible anyway, but if we're going to clone something we might as well save the trouble and just evolve something.

Why can't it? We can take whatever liberties we want with CAP as long as they're beneficial to our metagame.

It isn't really poll-jumping if it's an entirely different process. Nothing necessarily precludes expanding the competitive movepool of a community selected pokemon. I sincerely doubt everyone didn't already have in their heads the likely movepool of a Water/Fighting pokemon, if not the specifics.

Having something "in our heads" and having something already set on paper are two entirely different things, because you can't assume everything has the exact same ideas about how to go about a CAP project.

 

[Magmortified]

I sincerely doubt anyone would argue we create a Fire/Ground type with Solid Rock and Magma Armor.

We'd have the freedom to be able to create something better, though, instead of being forced to stick with the pre-made conceptions that Camerupt would force upon us.

CAP is an exercise in building something completely new. It attracts novelty and bandwagoning like the plague,

I have the sneaking suspicion EVO would get that even more so. But whatever.

but usually it works out in the end. Thus far we haven't "emulated" any niche from a lower tier, unless you count

Doesn't mean we won't. :/

Please qualify "useless things." I can certify that short of a shared typing, CAP will never produce anything remotely like EVO could.

Keep in mind, though, that doesn't mean EVO will make something better, or even of similar quality. "Focus" and general limitation does not equate to a necessarily better result. I don't think that adding new moves and some stats to a previously implemented concept will consistently make the intended results any more than CAP does its more freeform concepts.

I'm aware that a test-run might be on the horizon, and I'll guess we'll see then.

but if we're going to clone something we might as well save the trouble and just evolve something.

Since you're so certain CAP would never remotely make something like EVO, your statement seems... contradictory, to put it lightly.

Nothing necessarily precludes expanding the competitive movepool of a community selected pokemon.

If you're talking about expanding the movepool of a preexisting Pokemon, then, yes, it is precluded. Mainly in that we don't tamper with stuff that's already been made.

If you mean improvement by evolution, then, hey, evolution's the whole reason this thing is going on.

 

[FinnRagetti]

People can use the Dusclops to Dusknoir as the example. Dusclops was already fully functional in OU, but Dusknoir was an improvement on it. If we follow this example, and have something like Heracross, for example, evolved, then it will force Heracross down on the chain and into LC and UU. This is NOT a good thing.

I disagree with the idea that, supposing that we evolved a Heracross, then it would jump down to UU. It already fits it's roles in the metagame, being the guts/high attack pokemon it is, i wouldn't need evolving.

I do think though, if we do decide to go through with the EVO and even onwards with CAP, the TL needs to screen the topic suggestions carefully, making sure that anything with an obvious bias towards a pokemon, like "Flying/Fighting Sweeper" does not become the next one.

I think EVO should work out just fine. The few restrictions that might come up with evolving a pokemon may benefit the process, allowing for a more guided process.

 

[darkie]

I am closing this thread because I feel it's no longer going anywhere. If Doug or Bass wishes it to remain open, go ahead.