Policy Review Policy Review: CAP Pre-Evo

[Rising_Dusk]

This was a PR topic that I intended to make a very long time ago, but with CAP falling apart due to PO's inherent limitations never did. Now that CAP is back, despite that it's in a way that makes me cringe, we can discuss it again.

Introduction

The Pre-Evo process was something I spearheaded during the creation of Tomohawk and ran in tandem with CAP 1, Tomohawk. We created a very cool pre-evo, IMO, and that pre-evo was Scratchet. We also received a very promising amount of support and number of contributions from the CAP community to create Scratchet, all of which resulted in a very cool Pokemon archetype being born. You can read more about Scratchet here.

The question for this PR is: How can we do it better?

Issue #1

During the CAP 1 process, I recall reachzero, our TL, having some issue with the pre-evo leading the CAP around by the tail, as it were. Basically, he felt that some people were changing parts of their submissions for the primary CAP, Tomohawk, in order to better suit the pre-evo, Scratchet. This shouldn't happen, since the pre-evo is a side and fun project that is being made for completion's sake. He felt that, potentially, we should wait until the CAP were fully made before starting the pre-evo to ameliorate this. I personally disagree and feel that the only problem is with the way some people think. The pre-evo process was new and people were just getting used to it, so I think if we operated it the same way in the future it would get only better, much like the normal CAP process. Furthermore, I feel that the pre-evo process receives more attention and is generally more fun when it is run alongside the CAP process, since that brings the forum a lot more attention to begin with.

What do you think?

Issue #2

The other issue that is to be discussed here is whether or not any single parts of the pre-evo process should be changed. I operated it much like the CAP process, where I would plan out certain parts of the pre-evo based on completion of main CAP principles. I will quote to you all below, for information's sake, the PM I originally constructed to operate the CAP pre-evo process. This also tells you exactly where in each part of the CAP process the pre-evo process should also be. The discussion for this issue, if it's even an issue at all, should be about whether we want to change how the pre-evo process is organized since it was all very experimental. Having run the process myself for CAP 1, I actually think it went exceptionally well and that we should stick with how it went then.

What do you think?

This is the process, from left to right, of the CAP Pre-Evo inclusion to the main CAP main process. The main CAP process is in the top two rows as we have it described on the CAP website, and the bottom two rows show where the pre-evo steps would come into play.

I'd like to include this in CAP1 so as to get the ball rolling on pre-evos. I think it would be beneficial for artists to have fun stuff to do, and the flavor stuff would help alleviate some of the "too serious" issues with CAP in general. I'll need both of your (Wyverii and reachzero) approvals before going ahead with this. I do hope that you'll be OK with it, though, ete, Deck, and I put a lot of time into trying to make it not intrusive, fun, and time efficient.

Also, the ATL runs the pre-evo topics, so the TL can maintain complete focus on the competitive CAP. This way the TL isn't distracted either (unless he/she wants to comment on the pre-evos in his spare time).

MAIN CAP: PRC > TL > Concept > Assessment > Types >  Abils > Stats > ArtPoll > Counters > Name Poll > AM     > NAM   > Movepool > SpritePoll > Dex     > Misc        > Final Product
     ALT:                                         > Art  ---------->         > Names----> Sprites  ----------------------------->
PRE-EVO:                                                                     > Preevo?  > Typing    > Abils > Stats > ArtPoll   > Movepool   > Name(s) > SpritePoll
PRE ALT:                                                                                            > Art ---------->          > Sprites  ------------->

In those bottom two rows, you'll see some new steps. They function as follows:

Preevo?

This step is the poll where whether we even have a pre-evo or not is decided. It is a single bold vote thread with three options: 1-stage CAP, 2-stage CAP, 3-stage CAP. 1-stage CAP means no evolving, 2-stage is one pre-evo, and 3-stage is 2 pre-evos. In the case that two pre-evos are chosen, both are developed together for the rest of the pre-evo stages.

Typing

Pre-evo typing has a few rules associated with it. Basically the pre-evo must retain at least one type from the main CAP. This means that a Bug / Flying CAP could have a Bug / X or X / Flying pre-evo. These are discussed for a day and then voted on for a day.

Abils

Many times, pre-evos have distinct abilities from their final form. This is pretty basic; discuss for one day, vote for the next. Many abilities will be flavor stuff like Run Away or whatever, but sometimes pre-evos get decent abilities like Adaptability. Depends a lot on the CAP and the flavor.

Art

Pre-evo art starts alongside Abils after the pre-evo typing. It runs for a few steps so that artists aren't rushed and get enough time to work on it. You'd basically design a pre-evo based on the main CAP's art.

Stats

Stats are based on the main CAPs. There are no real restrictions, but the ATL will need to be mindful that no one submits something as good or better than the main CAP. Usually pre-evos suck a lot, so we're expecting pretty terrible stat spreads with little explanation as to why they are what they are. (Don't need relevant calcs, etc) Same as other steps in that it's discuss for a day, poll for a day.

Movepool

By this stage, the CAP's movepool has finished. Pre-evo movepools are always basically the same as the main CAP, but with fewer moves, no Hyper Beam, etc. Basically cut out some stuff and submit it to get voted on. Really easy.

Sprites

Pre-evo sprites start alongside the pre-evo movepool and basically run until the end of the CAP. This stage coincides exactly with the sprite poll for the main CAP, so this means that there won't be more than one artist thing going on at a time here. These follow all the same rules as the main CAP's sprite rules, and will have ample time for the artists to work until the end of CAP.

Name(s)

Pre-evo names. Same idea as the normal CAP, nothing special here.

Final Product

The final product would include miscellaneous stuff for the pre-evos as well as the CAP itself. This way everything concludes nice and together at the end, which I think is important. This also lets me implement both the CAP and the pre-evo(s) on the server at once, which is very important for technical reasons (not breaking backwards compatibility with teams, for instance).

 

[capefeather]

I think we're all cringing at how it's pretty much had to be done...

I don't think that Issue #1 matters much if the decision is about something that won't have a competitive impact. In fact, I think that non-competitive moves should be allowed to be added to a pre-evo's movepool if the winning movepool submitter for the main CAP neglected (!!!) some move that the pre-evo ended up "needing" for flavour reasons. However, if it becomes excessive, then it might become a problem. I doubt it will come to that, though.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I think that pre-evos should have been considered much earlier than the 12th CAP...

Little Cup has a pretty large playerbase, considering how it's much faster paced then standard OU. With that in mind, giving future CAPs (and perhaps past CAPs) pre-evolved forms using your process will really help attract LC players who weren't interested in CAP previously.

Pre-evolved forms would also allow us to explore Eviolite-related concepts that we couldn't do with just single form pokemon.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I agree we should allow noncompetitive moves (i.e. moves that no sane person would run on the adult version of the CAP) on the prevo.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Wait. Are these just for the lulz, or are we actually balancing these things for the current LC metagame?

Also, will there be a rework of CAP ASB prevos?

 

[jas61292]

IIn fact, I think that non-competitive moves should be allowed to be added to a pre-evo's movepool if the winning movepool submitter for the main CAP neglected (!!!) some move that the pre-evo ended up "needing" for flavour reasons. However, if it becomes excessive, then it might become a problem. I doubt it will come to that, though.

Yeah, as cape said, being able to add in non competitive moves would really be helpful for the sake of making a prevo, especially when prevos are based much more on flavor than anything else. As the one who designed Scratchet's movepool, I can say that doing so was very difficult with the moves we had to work with. Now, i realize that not all prevos will be as different from their evolution than Scratchet was from Tomohawk, and many may have enough moves to work with, but often times they are different, so giving some freedom to add such moves would be nice. (I mean really, Fury Swipes was all I had to work with. And I still think we should make an exception and give it Scratch.)

Little Cup has a pretty large playerbase, considering how it's much faster paced then standard OU. With that in mind, giving future CAPs (and perhaps past CAPs) pre-evolved forms using your process will really help attract LC players who weren't interested in CAP previously.

Pre-evolved forms would also allow us to explore Eviolite-related concepts that we couldn't do with just single form pokemon.

As for this, while I like the idea, I don't think a normal CAP prevo should be designed for LC. I mean, it can't hurt to make it LC viable, but if we were to do a concept specifically for LC, it should be done as a main focus, rather than a side project like most prevos will be. However, if we did do such a Pokemon, I would love to design a pure flavor evolution in the same way the proposed prevo process would go.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

ISSUE #1

If that's what reachzero fealt, I would have to personally share the same sentiment. Whether it happened or not, it would be best to focus on completing the actual CAP before anything is done. This will eliminate any possibility of outside interferences such as flavor/pre-evos with one's submissions. Even though it's a side project alongside the main CAP that's mainly for fun, I believe it's a legitimate concern.

ISSUE #2

I've preferred topics such as biology/dex/pre-evos to be held until the the CAP is completed simply because they prolonged the project when the Final Product thread could be released. I liked how you ran the pre-evo project this CAP however. It was more detailed than what was previously done and it didn't hold up the actual CAP since the threads were created in timely fashion regardless.

Your process outlined is good enough actually. I don't think any real changes need to be implemented. Just a general decision on when the pre-evo should be made.

--

I'm for the pre-evo to be done after the CAP. I wonder if by doing it last, then we could create the pre-evo with even more detail. However, then that would detract from the fun side of it, which what it's mainly suppose to be.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Doing the pre-evo after the CAP also has some issues in both implementation and group motivation. While the CAP is happening, there's lots of activity in the forum. If we created the pre-evo(s) after the CAP, there'd be little time for people to relax inbetween CAPs, less space for PR topics, and theoretically less activity in general because it's just a side project. These are my reasons for wanting to keep it side-by-side, but I definitely see where reach was coming from with his concerns. I could see in IRC people talking about "OH MAN SCRAPPY RAPID SPIN ON THE PRE-EVO" and stuff, and this definitely played a role in Tomohawk getting Rapid Spin. Tomohawk got Rapid Spin for good reasons anyway (and the concept was made far better by having it IMO), so it all worked out. I don't think there's an issue so long as the overarching goal of the main CAP's concept is kept in focus. That's just how I feel, in response to AL.

@ jas + cape

It's of utmost importance that the pre-evos trail behind the CAPs. The movepool restrictions are in place because the CAP's movepool is voted in as-is, not as-is with room for addenda from pre-evo(s). If the CAP's flavor movepool is inadequate to support a pre-evo, that gets considered for the movepool voting. It just so happened that cape won the movepool with his competitive stuff, but his flavor left the pre-evo gasping for air. I think this is something that main movepool creators should be thinking about when creating flavor moves for their movepools; you absolutely need to have room for stupid and non-competitive moves that the Pokemon will use early on in its leveling (and theoretically, evolution stages). Basically, what I'm getting at is that I strongly oppose allowing the pre-evo to adjust the main movepool of the CAP for any reason, all as I explained above.

Wait. Are these just for the lulz, or are we actually balancing these things for the current LC metagame?

They are just for the lulz. If CAP wants to tackle a competitive LC project, that will have to be done much like how the CAP Uber project is being discussed. It would be its own entity.

Also, will there be a rework of CAP ASB prevos?

Yes, theoretically. The process allows for them, and I personally want to see them done in the downtime between CAPs. For what it's worth, the CAP ASB pre-evos are actually canon (ie. they were created and adopted by the community far before ASB existed during the CAP processes that made them), which means that they should get fleshed out properly much like how Scratchet was made.

I think that pre-evos should have been considered much earlier than the 12th CAP...

Little Cup has a pretty large playerbase, considering how it's much faster paced then standard OU. With that in mind, giving future CAPs (and perhaps past CAPs) pre-evolved forms using your process will really help attract LC players who weren't interested in CAP previously.

Pre-evolved forms would also allow us to explore Eviolite-related concepts that we couldn't do with just single form pokemon.

I don't mean to quote-rape everyone in this thread, I'm just trying to provide feedback. Anyway, I am compelled to respond to this post in particular.

It's a very complicated thing to make a Pokemon with a community, as I'm sure you're aware. Yeah, the old CAPs should have had pre-evos handled, but they didn't. Better now than never, if you ask me. I'm very happy that I finally managed to plug and get a pre-evo process going at all. It required a lot more legwork than I was initially expecting!

Thanks for the responses, all! Keep 'em coming!

 

[DougJustDoug]

I think Scratchet was a good experiment to start feeling out how to handle pre-evos with CAP, but it was awfully messy IMO. Not that anyone did anything wrong, and I would expect any first effort to be messy to some degree. I just think a pre-evo project should be smaller or larger than the process we followed for Scratchet. Scratchet seemed like a project that was big enough to require a lot of attention and participation, but it was still somewhat of a "side project" and didn't really get the attention and participation that it really needed. It seemed like more of a big distraction to the main thrust of Tomohawk, who was the real star of the last CAP.

It created a fairly confusing flow to CAP, because at any given time there was a thread up for a CAP creation that was at a completely different stage than the other. So navigating threads and participating in both was confusing. It was confusing for me, and I know the process of CAP better than anyone. I suspect for newcomers it was probably baffling.

Don't get me wrong, for any given thread, you can read the OP and figure out what's going on for the most part. But it was kind of like watching two movies at the same time, and trying to keep up with both. Even if you manage to follow both plots from start to finish, you probably didn't get as invested in the storyline as you would have if you would have just picked one movie and watched it by itself.

It also seemed to give short shrift to the LC metagame in comparison to OU. Admittedly, it was better to get some competitive LC pokemon out of the process, wheras before LC got nothing. But, I'd rather see LC take the limelight for an entire CAP and just dedicate the community in that way. Perhaps even make the LC pokemon first, and then figure out how to evolve it into a full OU or UU pokemon. Basically make LC the star for a CAP, and the other metagame the "add-on project" afterwards. That would be going in the "larger" route that I mention in the first paragraph.

Or go "smaller" and make the LC pre-evo project a small team project after the main CAP completes. Assemble an "LC pre-evo team" and have them conduct a group collaboration project in full view in the CAP forum. Outsiders could comment here and there, but the LC team would call all the shots. Even go so far as to have them request sketches from a few artists to make rough designs and then select the artist that gets the final design "commission". Basically, make the pre-evo a team project run only by a few people experienced with the LC metagame, which is a far smaller community than the general OU metagame anyway. The whole project could be conducted in a few weeks, without following all the rigor of the normal CAP process. It would be more of a "creative collaboration" rather than a big "group science project". It presumably would be a high-quality competitive pokemon, and the doors would be open to all sorts of quirks and nuances that the regular CAP process simply can't pull off.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

It's been some time since I've posted here, but I'll say that i think I agree with reach or the first point. We don't want people entering in arguingment for certain part sof CAP based on how it will effect the LL meta game. Besides it's a nice way to break up the down time in between projects.

As for #2 I don't think I remember any particular issues with prevo with cap one, but then again I didn't get to participate as much as I would've liked.

 

[macle]

i really don't like the cap pre evos but i'll post here since i'm a cap battler and lc battler.

The problem I have with the cap pre evos is that they are basically just flavor. We don't have a concept for the pre evos. We are just making a pokemon based off the main cap and throwing it into LC and seeing how it does. We don't really learn anything from the process. It seems like flavor project, which I don't mind.

just my bad 2 cents

 

[Spork]

The problem I have with the cap pre evos is that they are basically just flavor. We don't have a concept for the pre evos. We are just making a pokemon based off the main cap and throwing it into LC and seeing how it does. We don't really learn anything from the process. It seems like flavor project, which I don't mind.

It is undoubtedly a flavour project, and it should be entirely viewed as such. It's worth recognising that prevos aren't actually created primarily for LC at all, and LC is only something that somewhat guides the process as they would potentially be usable there (I mean, GameFreak hardly designs their prevos for LC). Though it could be possible (in some cases), choosing and following a distinct concept for the prevo (that actually works in LC) would be highly difficult due to the restrictions placed by its evolution, unless we try to recycle the concept from its evolution (which would function differently in LC anyway, and makes the process hardly seem worth it). If CAP was going to make an LC pokemon, it should (imo) be created from scratch in CAP LC project, with the evolution being the afterthought.

I would generally argue that the process needs no real changes, the only general one being that the movepool designers need to be more aware of this dimension of flavour (i.e. ensuring that the lilCAP's stats are again decided before movepool submissions for bigCAP). Honestly, if the prevo only had scratch or low kick or something it would seem a whole lot better (although I actually quite like the final movepool in some respects. Restriction always seems to inspire the most creativity).

 

[DougJustDoug]

Whether we stick with the pre-evo being mostly flavor, or we expand it and make an LC pokemon as the main thrust of a competitive project, I think the pre-evo project should be separated from the main CAP project going on at any time. Not "separated" as in "banished" or "ostracized", -- but more "clearly defined and highlighted on its own merits".

Perhaps we could make a "LittleCAP" subforum or sub-category specifically to cater to it?

 

[Spork]

I can imagine that traffic to the prevo threads would slow down significantly if it was added to a subforum.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Hrm.. Having heard Doug's input, I think I can see where that side of the discussion is coming from. It definitely was clunky, I won't lie, and it was a crapton of work trying to focus on making Tomohawk and Scratchet together. I think it could definitely be done better, but at the same time, I worry that input from the community might be minimal. Everyone wants to make a new CAP, and everyone is always excited for the next CAP, not the pre-evo of a CAP we already made. I feel like if we don't do it together with the CAP, we won't actually get to doing it at all, and that's something that bothers me a lot. I also agree with Spork above, if it was pushed out of the CAP main forum it would lose a ton of activity; I think in that case it might even end up without enough participation to finish.

I mean, the pre-evos are an experiment to begin with. I'm totally okay with trying an after-CAP pre-evo for CAP 2 and seeing how it plays out. Perhaps with that under our belt, we can better assess how to handle them for the grand plan of the future. I'd be okay with that, how about all of you? We could try operating it during the PR stage of the post-CAP and hopefully not detracting from PR at all or the main flow of making CAPs.

Also, as an aside, I really don't think it's plausible to make an "LC-focused" pre-evo for a past CAP because making a pre-evo inherently limits our movepools, typing choices, concept choices, and so forth. If we do pursue an LC CAP, we would absolutely need to make the pre-evo on its own and then evolve it after, where the evolution would be flavor-related instead.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I mean, the pre-evos are an experiment to begin with. I'm totally okay with trying an after-CAP pre-evo for CAP 2 and seeing how it plays out. Perhaps with that under our belt, we can better assess how to handle them for the grand plan of the future. I'd be okay with that, how about all of you? We could try operating it during the PR stage of the post-CAP and hopefully not detracting from PR at all or the main flow of making CAPs.

Forgot that this wasn't wrapped up completely.

"We don't know until we try it out." I say we just go for it and see how it works during the post-CAP period. Then we'll have experience on both sides (during and after the primary CAP) and will see what works best for us.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think I ultimately agree, and I know the other mods do too. We will, for CAP 2, do the pre-evo stuff after the main CAP is completed.