D, but it also does nothing to the point where you can call it E imo, though I know that won’t take.
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Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)
- Thread starter Turdterra
- Start date
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When you accidentally post mid-formatting 
New run with Onix (Trade), Mareep, Abra (No trade), and Tentacool (really Tentracruel but w/e)
- loving this thing. P sure everyone understands Onix's great early-game, but Steelix extends that greatness far and beyond. Fantastic defensive presence, decent attack backed by strong STABs, boosted exp, and it's not even as slow as you might think vs the route trainers thanks to the boosting nature. It hasn't had a bad mu yet and besides Clair I'm not sure it will have one. Honestly if not for the Pokeathalon bs it would be an S-tier candidate. A surprising performance, but a welcome one.
- Pretty good as well. While the pre-Amphy period is kinda weak, resulting in no good sweeps except for Falkner and the rival, it's never outright useless, being able to snipe weaker mons and paralyze aces, and once Ampharos does come around things get pretty good, with its stats shooting up and it gaining a reliable electric STAB in Discharge, which is pretty neat as far as electric types in Johto go. Pretty comfortable with A so far
- Kadabra has some definite downsides compared to Zam. Blast is the obvious one, as missing out on fighting coverage leaves you weaker against several major battles in this game (notably Whitney, Jasmine, and Archer) that Zam would otherwise win. And while its stats are pretty comparable to Zam's I think Kadabra misses that extra speed, though it only really will be relevant for the two Gengars you'll face. With this in mind, I definitely don't think you could merge both mons into one tier like other lists have done. That all being said, though, this is still a great mon for almost all the reasons Zam is (Psychic typing, fantastic offensive stats), just lacks a few of the extra techs that Zam has to push it over the top. Feeling A so far.
- Another mid-game water that spams Specs Surf. Compared to its competition, Cruel does have a few things going for it: it's somewhat easier to encounter than other mons (you have a 30% chance to find it on route 41, or can repel trick in Olivine City for one at 10%), is quite fast at base 100 speed, and has a dual typing that provides both a secondary STAB and some interesting resists. On the downside, its average special attack can leave it missing some ohkos you might expect it to get, even with specs. Still this is pretty good as far as mid-game waters go. Feelin B.
New run with Onix (Trade), Mareep, Abra (No trade), and Tentacool (really Tentracruel but w/e)
Onix (9): Outspeed Pidgey, roll to ohko with Rock Throw. After Screech, Pidgeotto is 2hkod. Gust is a 5hko back, so if you get unlucky with misses (a very real possibility with the existence of Sand Attack), it can genuinely beat you. Good mu.
Mareep (12): Tshock ohkos Pidgey, which Tackles almost 100% of the time. Pidgeotto is a roll to be 2hkod, while it about 3-4hkos back with Tackle. Can potentially lose based on how much Otto decides to Roost, but you have para luck with Tshock and Static on your side in return. Good overall.
Mareep (12): Tshock ohkos Pidgey, which Tackles almost 100% of the time. Pidgeotto is a roll to be 2hkod, while it about 3-4hkos back with Tackle. Can potentially lose based on how much Otto decides to Roost, but you have para luck with Tshock and Static on your side in return. Good overall.
Onix (15): Zubat is ohkod, Koffing 2hkod after Screech. Neither can significantly harm you aside from hax on Koffing’s part. Great mu.
Flaffy (16): Pretty much the same as Onix except you naturally 2hko Koffing with Tshock. Great mu.
Flaffy (16): Pretty much the same as Onix except you naturally 2hko Koffing with Tshock. Great mu.
Onix: 2hko everything with Rock Throw. A sweep here depends on Scyther’s move choice; if it Leers into U-Turns it will eventually ko you with repeated U-Turns. This scenario is kinda rare tho, as it can also Focus Energy into Quick Attack, or Leer into QA, or Leer into FE. Even assuming the worst case scenario you eliminate the cocoons and leave Scyther low, which is still a pretty good contribution overall. Great mu.
Flaffy: 4hko Scyther after berry, 2hko the cacoons. Scyther genuinely beats you as U-Turn 2hkos, but you can still paralyze it and whittle it down at least. Cocoons are no obstacle granted you haven’t eaten a U-Turn recently. Decent mu.
Flaffy: 4hko Scyther after berry, 2hko the cacoons. Scyther genuinely beats you as U-Turn 2hkos, but you can still paralyze it and whittle it down at least. Cocoons are no obstacle granted you haven’t eaten a U-Turn recently. Decent mu.
Onix (18): Gastly is 2hkod by Rock Throw, Zubat is a roll to ohko. Croconaw fucks you obvs. Good mu.
Flaffy (17): 2hkos Gastly and Croc (roll), roll to ko Bat. Worst is you get Bite flinched a bit. Great mu.
Flaffy (17): 2hkos Gastly and Croc (roll), roll to ko Bat. Worst is you get Bite flinched a bit. Great mu.
Onix is 20, rest 19
Onix: Screech into Dig kos Clefairy. Two Screeches are required to 2hko Miltank. The issue is Attract into Stomp, which can make it seem impossible to attack, especially since you’re using a two turn move. It got to the point where I would collect a Harden at Clefairy to give myself just a few more chances of hitting. But if there’s any mon to give you all the chances in the world to attack Miltank, Onix is the man to do it. Good mu.
Flaffy: Tshock into Thunder kos Clefairy. Miltank is 2hkod by Thunder, however it outspeeds and can stall for you to miss with Milk Drink. To beat Miltank you have to get a paralysis 2 turns in a row, which is possible with multiple 30% chances between Thunder and Static but not reliable whatsoever. Decent.
Kadabra: Confusion is a roll to 2hko Clefairy, 4-5hkos Miltank. You can Disable a move on Miltank, I guess, but it really isn’t that useful against it otherwise. Zam meanwhile ohkos both with Focus Blast lol. Decent.
Onix: Screech into Dig kos Clefairy. Two Screeches are required to 2hko Miltank. The issue is Attract into Stomp, which can make it seem impossible to attack, especially since you’re using a two turn move. It got to the point where I would collect a Harden at Clefairy to give myself just a few more chances of hitting. But if there’s any mon to give you all the chances in the world to attack Miltank, Onix is the man to do it. Good mu.
Flaffy: Tshock into Thunder kos Clefairy. Miltank is 2hkod by Thunder, however it outspeeds and can stall for you to miss with Milk Drink. To beat Miltank you have to get a paralysis 2 turns in a row, which is possible with multiple 30% chances between Thunder and Static but not reliable whatsoever. Decent.
Kadabra: Confusion is a roll to 2hko Clefairy, 4-5hkos Miltank. You can Disable a move on Miltank, I guess, but it really isn’t that useful against it otherwise. Zam meanwhile ohkos both with Focus Blast lol. Decent.
Steelix (23): Payback ohkos Gastly, worst it does is Curse. Croc comes in next, and should you take the damage from Curse, will eventually beat you with Water Gun before Dig 3hkos; if you don’t get Cursed, however (or just heal it off ig), it’ll resign to spamming Scary Face for some reason, allowing you an easy ko. Zubat and Mag are kinda self-explanatory. Great mu.
Flaffy (21): Everything except Mag is ohkod by Thunder (Zubat by Tshock), Thunder into Tshock kos Mag. Low speed means you can get haxxed out by Gastly / Zubat but otherwise you should be fine. Good mu.
Kadabra (22): Confusion ohkos poisons, 2hkos Mag, rolls to 2hko Croc. If Croc Bites at all, you will be finished off by Mag’s Sonicboom, but if it doesn’t you should win. Good mu.
Flaffy (21): Everything except Mag is ohkod by Thunder (Zubat by Tshock), Thunder into Tshock kos Mag. Low speed means you can get haxxed out by Gastly / Zubat but otherwise you should be fine. Good mu.
Kadabra (22): Confusion ohkos poisons, 2hkos Mag, rolls to 2hko Croc. If Croc Bites at all, you will be finished off by Mag’s Sonicboom, but if it doesn’t you should win. Good mu.
All 24
Steelix: Payback ohkos everything except Gengar who is 2hkod. If Gastly Curses you’ll have to switch out, if not you can just spam til the cows come home. Only other annoying thing is Hypnosis but you can generally outlast any attacking move they may have. Good mu.
Flaffy: Thunder ohkos everything except Gengar. Gar 2hkos with SBall so that’s a no-go. Other issue is speed leaving you prone to sleeps / curses / etc, which combined with Thunder’s inaccuracy can make this mu inconsistent. Decent/good.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko everything except for Gar which outspeeds you. Good mu.
Steelix: Payback ohkos everything except Gengar who is 2hkod. If Gastly Curses you’ll have to switch out, if not you can just spam til the cows come home. Only other annoying thing is Hypnosis but you can generally outlast any attacking move they may have. Good mu.
Flaffy: Thunder ohkos everything except Gengar. Gar 2hkos with SBall so that’s a no-go. Other issue is speed leaving you prone to sleeps / curses / etc, which combined with Thunder’s inaccuracy can make this mu inconsistent. Decent/good.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko everything except for Gar which outspeeds you. Good mu.
Lix is 27, rest 28
Steelix: Rock Throw is a roll to ohko Zubat, 2hkos Koffing after Screech. Rat is 2hkod by Dig. Koffing can spam Smokescreens at you, but after it lowers your accuracy all the way down it Self-Destructs, which bounces off you, so you can legitimately just sit there and take it, then switch out to reset your accuracy. Nothing else is really threatening. Good mu.
Flaffy: Specs Thunder ohkos everything. Natural inaccuracy can fuck you per usual but nothing threatens to directly ohko you (even Rat’s Hyper Fang is around a 4hko). You can run Magnet to not force yourself into clicking Thunder everytime either. Good mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam ohkos the poisons and is a roll on Rat. You can survive one Crunch so no problem if you miss the roll. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos the poisons and is a roll on Rat. Hyper Fang into Sucker leaves you at about half, so you’re perfectly safe (assuming he’ll even guaranteed go for that move selection). Great mu.
Steelix: Rock Throw is a roll to ohko Zubat, 2hkos Koffing after Screech. Rat is 2hkod by Dig. Koffing can spam Smokescreens at you, but after it lowers your accuracy all the way down it Self-Destructs, which bounces off you, so you can legitimately just sit there and take it, then switch out to reset your accuracy. Nothing else is really threatening. Good mu.
Flaffy: Specs Thunder ohkos everything. Natural inaccuracy can fuck you per usual but nothing threatens to directly ohko you (even Rat’s Hyper Fang is around a 4hko). You can run Magnet to not force yourself into clicking Thunder everytime either. Good mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam ohkos the poisons and is a roll on Rat. You can survive one Crunch so no problem if you miss the roll. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos the poisons and is a roll on Rat. Hyper Fang into Sucker leaves you at about half, so you’re perfectly safe (assuming he’ll even guaranteed go for that move selection). Great mu.
Steelix and Kadabra are 31, rest 30
Steelix: Dig ohkos Primeape and 3hkos Wrath through berry after Screech. Steelix can actually sweep here, as even though Poliwrath easily 2hkos with Surf, it has some bizarre aversion to actually using that move, only doing it once against me. Any other time you had a good chance between it spamming FP and Body Slam, even at full you can stomach a Hypnosis into FP. GIven how generally slow the fight with Double Team shenanigans and needing spam Dig over and over, plus the amount of things that can go wrong I’ll count this as decent, but quite a surprising showing for Lix.
Ampharos: Magnet-boosted Thunder ohkos both. Worst case is Wrath sleeps, FPs, and finishes you off with Surf next turn, but this doesn’t seem to be a common move choice. Good mu.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko Ape, 2hko Wrath. Worst case Wrath paralyzes you with BSlam or sleeps you, but you don’t die to any one hit. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb 2hkos Ape, 3hkos Wrath. Poli can threaten with BSlam but prefers to spam Surf or try and sleep. Good mu.
Steelix: Dig ohkos Primeape and 3hkos Wrath through berry after Screech. Steelix can actually sweep here, as even though Poliwrath easily 2hkos with Surf, it has some bizarre aversion to actually using that move, only doing it once against me. Any other time you had a good chance between it spamming FP and Body Slam, even at full you can stomach a Hypnosis into FP. GIven how generally slow the fight with Double Team shenanigans and needing spam Dig over and over, plus the amount of things that can go wrong I’ll count this as decent, but quite a surprising showing for Lix.
Ampharos: Magnet-boosted Thunder ohkos both. Worst case is Wrath sleeps, FPs, and finishes you off with Surf next turn, but this doesn’t seem to be a common move choice. Good mu.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko Ape, 2hko Wrath. Worst case Wrath paralyzes you with BSlam or sleeps you, but you don’t die to any one hit. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb 2hkos Ape, 3hkos Wrath. Poli can threaten with BSlam but prefers to spam Surf or try and sleep. Good mu.
Levels are the same
Steelix: Dig ohkos the Mags and 3hkos Lix after a Screech. None of them can harm you in any way. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Focus Blast ohkos everything. Missing is an issue but nothing can really threaten you. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam 2hko Mags, 5hkos Lix after berry. Mags will para and 2hko with TBolt, Lix ohkos with Iron Tail. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Outspeed and ohko everything with Specs Surf. Flawless mu.
Steelix: Dig ohkos the Mags and 3hkos Lix after a Screech. None of them can harm you in any way. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Focus Blast ohkos everything. Missing is an issue but nothing can really threaten you. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam 2hko Mags, 5hkos Lix after berry. Mags will para and 2hko with TBolt, Lix ohkos with Iron Tail. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Outspeed and ohko everything with Specs Surf. Flawless mu.
Lix and Kadabra are 32, rest 31
Steelix: Dig 2hkos Seel, Iron Tail 2hkos Piloswine, Screech into Iron Tail 2hkos Dewgong. You won’t beat Dewgong unless you get an extra defense drop from IT. Also if you’ve taken prior damage from Seel Piloswine will just spam Mud Bomb, but if you avoid Seel it’ll set up Hail first, giving you the chance to ko it (assuming you land IT, anyways). Decent.
Ampharos: Seel and Dewgong are ohkod and 2hkod, respectfully, by TPunch. You can also try and set up Rain Dance to land Thunder and ohko Dewgong. Focus Blast ohkos Piloswine. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam 2hkos Seel, is a roll to 2hko Dewgong, and 3hkos Piloswine after berry. Seel Icy Winds for minimal damage, but Piloswine can put you into red with Ice Fang. Dewgong also puts you low but won’t ko you if you’re at full. Decent/good.
Tentacruel: Seel and Dewgong are 2hkod by specs Sludge Bomb, Pilo is a roll to ohko with Specs Surf. Pilo does minimal damage with Mud Bomb. Good mu, only issue is requiring a lot of switching around.
Steelix: Dig 2hkos Seel, Iron Tail 2hkos Piloswine, Screech into Iron Tail 2hkos Dewgong. You won’t beat Dewgong unless you get an extra defense drop from IT. Also if you’ve taken prior damage from Seel Piloswine will just spam Mud Bomb, but if you avoid Seel it’ll set up Hail first, giving you the chance to ko it (assuming you land IT, anyways). Decent.
Ampharos: Seel and Dewgong are ohkod and 2hkod, respectfully, by TPunch. You can also try and set up Rain Dance to land Thunder and ohko Dewgong. Focus Blast ohkos Piloswine. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam 2hkos Seel, is a roll to 2hko Dewgong, and 3hkos Piloswine after berry. Seel Icy Winds for minimal damage, but Piloswine can put you into red with Ice Fang. Dewgong also puts you low but won’t ko you if you’re at full. Decent/good.
Tentacruel: Seel and Dewgong are 2hkod by specs Sludge Bomb, Pilo is a roll to ohko with Specs Surf. Pilo does minimal damage with Mud Bomb. Good mu, only issue is requiring a lot of switching around.
Amphy and Kadabra are 33, rest 32
Steelix: Iron Tail 2hkos Koffings and 2hkos Weezing after Screech. You have to Iron Tail twice as Payback will leave them just barely alive. For some reason Petrel didn’t spam Smokescreen as much as he could’ve against me, resigning to spamming Tackle a ton and Exploding with Weezing. That being said it’s still an annoying process to get through, but not as bad as I expected. Decent.
Ampharos: Thunder ohkos everything. I actually learned Discharge halfway through, which was very helpful, but if you don’t have this move you’ll have to set up rain twice, which can leave you vulnerable especially if you get Sludge poisoned. Overall tho great mu.
Kadabra: Psybeam ohkos everything rofl.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos Koffings, leaves Weezing in the red. Weezing always Tackles for some reason so no issue there. Great mu.
Steelix: Iron Tail 2hkos Koffings and 2hkos Weezing after Screech. You have to Iron Tail twice as Payback will leave them just barely alive. For some reason Petrel didn’t spam Smokescreen as much as he could’ve against me, resigning to spamming Tackle a ton and Exploding with Weezing. That being said it’s still an annoying process to get through, but not as bad as I expected. Decent.
Ampharos: Thunder ohkos everything. I actually learned Discharge halfway through, which was very helpful, but if you don’t have this move you’ll have to set up rain twice, which can leave you vulnerable especially if you get Sludge poisoned. Overall tho great mu.
Kadabra: Psybeam ohkos everything rofl.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos Koffings, leaves Weezing in the red. Weezing always Tackles for some reason so no issue there. Great mu.
Amphy is 34, levels otherwise the same
Steelix: Ohko Sneasel, Haunter, and Magnemite with the appropriate attack. Golbat is ohko with Iron Tail after Screech and Gatr is 2hkod. Gatr 3hkos with Water Gun so no-go there, only other issue is hax from the multiple Confuse Rays. Good mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos everything. Worst issue is Confuse Ray since you’re slower than everything else but if they don’t use it / you get lucky and don’t hit yourself you have enough HP to sweep. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam ohkos the poisons, 2hkos Gatr and Mag. Gatr ohkos back with Crunch so no-go there. Sneasel kinda just blanks you. Mag can maybe get super lucky with para but it’s not likely. Good mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos Haunter / Mag, 2hkos Bat and Sneasel. Gatr is 2hkod with SBomb. If you take enough damage from confusion or something Sneasel outspeeds and finishes you off. Good mu.
Steelix: Ohko Sneasel, Haunter, and Magnemite with the appropriate attack. Golbat is ohko with Iron Tail after Screech and Gatr is 2hkod. Gatr 3hkos with Water Gun so no-go there, only other issue is hax from the multiple Confuse Rays. Good mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos everything. Worst issue is Confuse Ray since you’re slower than everything else but if they don’t use it / you get lucky and don’t hit yourself you have enough HP to sweep. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam ohkos the poisons, 2hkos Gatr and Mag. Gatr ohkos back with Crunch so no-go there. Sneasel kinda just blanks you. Mag can maybe get super lucky with para but it’s not likely. Good mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf ohkos Haunter / Mag, 2hkos Bat and Sneasel. Gatr is 2hkod with SBomb. If you take enough damage from confusion or something Sneasel outspeeds and finishes you off. Good mu.
Amphy and Kadabra are 35, rest 34
Steelix: Screech into Iron Tail ohkos Golbat and 2hkos Weezing. Confusion and accuracy gets annoying but neither mon can actually touch you. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos everything. Faces issues of hax but cares even less since all it needs is a single hit. Great mu.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko everything. Flawless mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf is a roll to ohko Golbat, 2hkos Weezing. Great mu.
Steelix: Screech into Iron Tail ohkos Golbat and 2hkos Weezing. Confusion and accuracy gets annoying but neither mon can actually touch you. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos everything. Faces issues of hax but cares even less since all it needs is a single hit. Great mu.
Kadabra: Outspeed and ohko everything. Flawless mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf is a roll to ohko Golbat, 2hkos Weezing. Great mu.
Levels are the same
Steelix: Ohko Arbok (after dodging Intimidate) and Murkrow with Dig / IT respectively. After Screech Plume is 2hkod by Dig. Plume outspeeds and Sleep Powders which is super annoying but does pitiful damage with Mega Drain. Great mu.
Ampharos: ThunderDance to victory. Thunder ohkos Arbok and 3hkos Vileplume. Murkrow is ohkod by whatever electric move you wanna throw at it. If you get Glared by Arbok you can be put low enough to be finished off by Murkrow’s Night Shade but otherwise you’re fine. Great mu.
Kadabra: Psybeam ohkos the poisons. Murkrow can be 2hkod by Specs Shadow Ball but this requires some switching around to accomplish. Great.
Tentacruel: Murkrow is ohkod by Specs Surf, Arbok 2hkod. Vileplume is 2hkod by Specs Sludge Bomb. Great mu.
Steelix: Ohko Arbok (after dodging Intimidate) and Murkrow with Dig / IT respectively. After Screech Plume is 2hkod by Dig. Plume outspeeds and Sleep Powders which is super annoying but does pitiful damage with Mega Drain. Great mu.
Ampharos: ThunderDance to victory. Thunder ohkos Arbok and 3hkos Vileplume. Murkrow is ohkod by whatever electric move you wanna throw at it. If you get Glared by Arbok you can be put low enough to be finished off by Murkrow’s Night Shade but otherwise you’re fine. Great mu.
Kadabra: Psybeam ohkos the poisons. Murkrow can be 2hkod by Specs Shadow Ball but this requires some switching around to accomplish. Great.
Tentacruel: Murkrow is ohkod by Specs Surf, Arbok 2hkod. Vileplume is 2hkod by Specs Sludge Bomb. Great mu.
Kadabra is 36, everyone else same
Steelix: Ohko Houndour with Dig, 2hko Doom and Koffing with Dig / IT respectively. Since the fire moves here are all physical, you can stomach 3 attacks from Dour and Doom. You’ll be left on red but Koffing can’t touch you anyways. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos Dour / Koffing, 2hkos Doom. This strat is better than ThunderDance as you achieve the same damage numbers and are forced to take an extra hit, which leaves you open to being finished off by Doom. Otherwise, no real issues. Great mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Koffing with Psybeam, lose to the dark types. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Ohko everything with Specs Surf. Houndoom outspeeds and 2hkos with a dark move, so if Bite flinches you’re kinda screwed, but the odds of this happening are low and the 2hko is likely dependent on my defense-lowering nature. Great mu.
Steelix: Ohko Houndour with Dig, 2hko Doom and Koffing with Dig / IT respectively. Since the fire moves here are all physical, you can stomach 3 attacks from Dour and Doom. You’ll be left on red but Koffing can’t touch you anyways. Great mu.
Ampharos: Specs Discharge ohkos Dour / Koffing, 2hkos Doom. This strat is better than ThunderDance as you achieve the same damage numbers and are forced to take an extra hit, which leaves you open to being finished off by Doom. Otherwise, no real issues. Great mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Koffing with Psybeam, lose to the dark types. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Ohko everything with Specs Surf. Houndoom outspeeds and 2hkos with a dark move, so if Bite flinches you’re kinda screwed, but the odds of this happening are low and the 2hko is likely dependent on my defense-lowering nature. Great mu.
- loving this thing. P sure everyone understands Onix's great early-game, but Steelix extends that greatness far and beyond. Fantastic defensive presence, decent attack backed by strong STABs, boosted exp, and it's not even as slow as you might think vs the route trainers thanks to the boosting nature. It hasn't had a bad mu yet and besides Clair I'm not sure it will have one. Honestly if not for the Pokeathalon bs it would be an S-tier candidate. A surprising performance, but a welcome one. - Pretty good as well. While the pre-Amphy period is kinda weak, resulting in no good sweeps except for Falkner and the rival, it's never outright useless, being able to snipe weaker mons and paralyze aces, and once Ampharos does come around things get pretty good, with its stats shooting up and it gaining a reliable electric STAB in Discharge, which is pretty neat as far as electric types in Johto go. Pretty comfortable with A so far - Kadabra has some definite downsides compared to Zam. Blast is the obvious one, as missing out on fighting coverage leaves you weaker against several major battles in this game (notably Whitney, Jasmine, and Archer) that Zam would otherwise win. And while its stats are pretty comparable to Zam's I think Kadabra misses that extra speed, though it only really will be relevant for the two Gengars you'll face. With this in mind, I definitely don't think you could merge both mons into one tier like other lists have done. That all being said, though, this is still a great mon for almost all the reasons Zam is (Psychic typing, fantastic offensive stats), just lacks a few of the extra techs that Zam has to push it over the top. Feeling A so far. - Another mid-game water that spams Specs Surf. Compared to its competition, Cruel does have a few things going for it: it's somewhat easier to encounter than other mons (you have a 30% chance to find it on route 41, or can repel trick in Olivine City for one at 10%), is quite fast at base 100 speed, and has a dual typing that provides both a secondary STAB and some interesting resists. On the downside, its average special attack can leave it missing some ohkos you might expect it to get, even with specs. Still this is pretty good as far as mid-game waters go. Feelin B.Sorry for the double post but I speedran the end of my run. My mind is broken, but I have surivived.
Steelix to A: Drops off a little bit at the end of the league but stays amazingly consistent for the majority of the game. Great typing, good stats overall, and great movepool for hitting a ton of the game. Only major issue is getting the metal coat.
Mareep to B: Mareep is really close to A but the pre-Amphy is kinda disappointing and it begins to drop off a bit again mid-league, fucking up at Bruno of all things and not getting past that. Very good mon overall tho.
Kadabra to B: Dabber is very good when it has the type advantage but tends to be lame when it doesn't. Because it's so frail, the slightest hiccup can spell its disaster, and since its stonewalled by anything that resists Psychic (a fair bit more common than one might expect tbh) those hiccups come around time and time again. Kinda on the fence with this one as well as it just sorta blanks mus like the rockets (except for the dark types) and the fighting specialists but other times it just kinda falls flat.
Tentacool to C: Cruel is your general Specs Surf spammer with the upsides of high speed and a decent secondary typing and the downsides of average power and low physical bulk. Even with Specs Cruel misses some ohkos you might seriously expect it to (even rival's Magneton is a roll, just to name one example). At league it only really performs well vs Koga, and you still won't full sweep that fight. It does about what a specs Surf spammer needs to do but not a ton outside of that, I feel.
Lix is 38, rest 37
Steelix: At +2 you 2hko Gyara and Kingdra and ohko the Airs. Curse is pretty useless here as Dragon Rage 3hkos and even if you potion up to get past Gyara Kingdra comes in immediately after, and even if THAT didn’t happen both Dragonairs have super effective coverage against you. You’re gonna take down one Dragonair and that’s it. Bad mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Gyara with, 4hko the Airs, 3hko Kingdra after berry with Discharge. Dragonairs will eventually wear you down with paralysis and Slams, if you had Focus Blast here you likely 2hko but I didn’t run it so eh. Kingdra 2hkos you with Hydro Pump, but you can at least paralyze and get a Discharge off, which I feel can be considered valuable given how hard to beat Kingdra is. Overall poor mu.
Kadabra: 4hko Gyara and Kingdra, 2hko the Dragonairs. You’re limited to one Dragonair due to paralysis and Slam leaving you low. You outspeed Kingdra but Hydro Pump is a roll to ohko. Bad mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb 3hkos Gyara while it 3hkos back with Bite - given potion, it will beat you. 2hko Dragonairs, same issues with them as Kadabra really. Kingdra is 4hkod after berry, but outspeeds and 3hkos you. Poor mu.
Steelix: At +2 you 2hko Gyara and Kingdra and ohko the Airs. Curse is pretty useless here as Dragon Rage 3hkos and even if you potion up to get past Gyara Kingdra comes in immediately after, and even if THAT didn’t happen both Dragonairs have super effective coverage against you. You’re gonna take down one Dragonair and that’s it. Bad mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Gyara with, 4hko the Airs, 3hko Kingdra after berry with Discharge. Dragonairs will eventually wear you down with paralysis and Slams, if you had Focus Blast here you likely 2hko but I didn’t run it so eh. Kingdra 2hkos you with Hydro Pump, but you can at least paralyze and get a Discharge off, which I feel can be considered valuable given how hard to beat Kingdra is. Overall poor mu.
Kadabra: 4hko Gyara and Kingdra, 2hko the Dragonairs. You’re limited to one Dragonair due to paralysis and Slam leaving you low. You outspeed Kingdra but Hydro Pump is a roll to ohko. Bad mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb 3hkos Gyara while it 3hkos back with Bite - given potion, it will beat you. 2hko Dragonairs, same issues with them as Kadabra really. Kingdra is 4hkod after berry, but outspeeds and 3hkos you. Poor mu.
All 40
Steelix: Set up two Curses and sweep, SIlver leads Sneasel so it’s literally free. At +2 you ohko everything except Gatr (Kadabra can set up Reflect which turns Golbat into a 2hko). However with the defense buffs Gatr’s Waterfall does shit all and you can EQ it EZ. Great mu.
Ampharos: You can ohko everything except Mag with Thunder (which is 2hkod) but you still ohko Gatr, Golbat, Kadabra, and Haunter with Discharge. Setting up Rain Dance is something I’m wary of here since it boosts Gatr’s Surf but against another starter (Typh especially) it should be fine. Main issue is getting worn down over time but since you ohko so many things it’s not gonna stop your sweep unless you just get fucked or something idk. Great mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Haunter, Golbat, and Kadabra with Psychic and Shadow Ball, respectively. Gatr and Mag are 2hkod by Psychic. Mag can fuck you with TWave + Spark and Gatr’s Crunch is a roll to ohko. Avoid Sneasel. Decent/good.
Tentacruel: Ohko Haunter and Kadabra with Specs Surf, Sneasel and Mag are a roll to ko. Golbat is 2hkod by Surf and Gatr by Sludge Bomb. Will need to switch around a bit to kill everything and can force a paralyze heal if it doesn’t ohko Mag. Good mu.
Steelix: Set up two Curses and sweep, SIlver leads Sneasel so it’s literally free. At +2 you ohko everything except Gatr (Kadabra can set up Reflect which turns Golbat into a 2hko). However with the defense buffs Gatr’s Waterfall does shit all and you can EQ it EZ. Great mu.
Ampharos: You can ohko everything except Mag with Thunder (which is 2hkod) but you still ohko Gatr, Golbat, Kadabra, and Haunter with Discharge. Setting up Rain Dance is something I’m wary of here since it boosts Gatr’s Surf but against another starter (Typh especially) it should be fine. Main issue is getting worn down over time but since you ohko so many things it’s not gonna stop your sweep unless you just get fucked or something idk. Great mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Haunter, Golbat, and Kadabra with Psychic and Shadow Ball, respectively. Gatr and Mag are 2hkod by Psychic. Mag can fuck you with TWave + Spark and Gatr’s Crunch is a roll to ohko. Avoid Sneasel. Decent/good.
Tentacruel: Ohko Haunter and Kadabra with Specs Surf, Sneasel and Mag are a roll to ko. Golbat is 2hkod by Surf and Gatr by Sludge Bomb. Will need to switch around a bit to kill everything and can force a paralyze heal if it doesn’t ohko Mag. Good mu.
Lix 42, rest 43
Steelix: Set up two Curses on Xatu 1, it likes to spam Me First a lot but if it decides to Confuse Ray it shouldn’t be a big deal either. Ohko with Payback. Slowbro immediately comes in and will Curse on you, after two Paybacks Slowbro will be left at red with two Curses. As Will potions, you MUST Curse a third time so as to remain slower than Bro and keep a boosted Payback. If you do this, Bro will continue to boost with Curse and Amnesia and lit you ko it, if you don’t it Water Pulses (don’t ask me why). From there Jynx and Eggy come in; former is ohkod by Payback / EQ and the latter is 2hkod by Payback through Reflect. Both carry sleep moves, which can cripple you especially if they land multiple as you use awakenings, but they go for Psychic more often. Xatu 2 comes in and is 2hkod by Payback through Reflect. Good mu, a few things that can go wrong but overall a solid sweep.
Ampharos: Discharge ohkos Xatus and Bro, 2hkos Jynx. Xatus can Confuse Ray BS and Jynx can also sweep. Avoid Eggy. Good mu.
Kadabra: Specs Shadow Ball ohkos both Xatus and Eggy, 2hkos Jynx and Bro. Jynx does about half with Ice Punch or can sleep you. Bro just sets up Curse. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb ohkos Eggy, 2hkos everything else. Blizzard ohkos the Xatus. All 2hko back with Psychic. Slowbro Amnesias on you, which means that if Will still has a potion, it’ll beat you. If not, 3hko with SBomb. Poor mu.
Steelix: Set up two Curses on Xatu 1, it likes to spam Me First a lot but if it decides to Confuse Ray it shouldn’t be a big deal either. Ohko with Payback. Slowbro immediately comes in and will Curse on you, after two Paybacks Slowbro will be left at red with two Curses. As Will potions, you MUST Curse a third time so as to remain slower than Bro and keep a boosted Payback. If you do this, Bro will continue to boost with Curse and Amnesia and lit you ko it, if you don’t it Water Pulses (don’t ask me why). From there Jynx and Eggy come in; former is ohkod by Payback / EQ and the latter is 2hkod by Payback through Reflect. Both carry sleep moves, which can cripple you especially if they land multiple as you use awakenings, but they go for Psychic more often. Xatu 2 comes in and is 2hkod by Payback through Reflect. Good mu, a few things that can go wrong but overall a solid sweep.
Ampharos: Discharge ohkos Xatus and Bro, 2hkos Jynx. Xatus can Confuse Ray BS and Jynx can also sweep. Avoid Eggy. Good mu.
Kadabra: Specs Shadow Ball ohkos both Xatus and Eggy, 2hkos Jynx and Bro. Jynx does about half with Ice Punch or can sleep you. Bro just sets up Curse. Great mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Sludge Bomb ohkos Eggy, 2hkos everything else. Blizzard ohkos the Xatus. All 2hko back with Psychic. Slowbro Amnesias on you, which means that if Will still has a potion, it’ll beat you. If not, 3hko with SBomb. Poor mu.
Lix is 44, rest 43
Steelix: At +2, Ariados, Venomoth, and Muk are ohkod by EQ. Forre is 2hkod and Crobat is 2hkod by Ice Fang. Best Koga can really do is try and PP stall you with evasion moves and Protect. Great mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Ariados, Crobat, and Venomoth with Thunder. Muk and Forre are 2hkod. A little more vulnerable in this mu, mostly to Muk as it can do massive damage with Gunk Shot, but it isn’t guaranteed to use this move and it has a good chance to miss anyways. Other mons don’t really harm you. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psychic ohkos everything except Forre, which is 3hkod. Avoid Forre as it can genuinely PP stall you with Protect. Crobat can also be threatening as it outspeeds and 2hkos clean with Wing Attack. Overall good mu.
Tentacruel: 2hko everything with Specs Surf. Ari and Forre can’t really touch you, but Venomoth does strong damage with Psychic, and combined with Crobat’s Wing Attack you’ll be put in range of Muk. Good mu.
Steelix: At +2, Ariados, Venomoth, and Muk are ohkod by EQ. Forre is 2hkod and Crobat is 2hkod by Ice Fang. Best Koga can really do is try and PP stall you with evasion moves and Protect. Great mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Ariados, Crobat, and Venomoth with Thunder. Muk and Forre are 2hkod. A little more vulnerable in this mu, mostly to Muk as it can do massive damage with Gunk Shot, but it isn’t guaranteed to use this move and it has a good chance to miss anyways. Other mons don’t really harm you. Great mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psychic ohkos everything except Forre, which is 3hkod. Avoid Forre as it can genuinely PP stall you with Protect. Crobat can also be threatening as it outspeeds and 2hkos clean with Wing Attack. Overall good mu.
Tentacruel: 2hko everything with Specs Surf. Ari and Forre can’t really touch you, but Venomoth does strong damage with Psychic, and combined with Crobat’s Wing Attack you’ll be put in range of Muk. Good mu.
Lix and Dab are 44, rest 43
Steelix: At +3, you ohko Hitmontop as it harmlessly Digs and Counters. Lee Swaggers, which pretty much guarantees you ohko everything but at the cost of maybe hitting yourself. You don’t deal too much self-damage but leaving yourself open for repeated attacks is concerning. From there your biggest issue is Cross Chop’s high crit rate. Basically, don’t get unlucky. Good mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Onix with FB, 2hko everything else with electric moves. You’ll likely take at least one mon down (especially Onix if you run FB), but you’re too slow and take too much chip damage to kill more than one mon, and even then most of the kills I got came down to lucky paras. Bad mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psychic ohkos everything. Flawless
Tentacruel: Specs spamming isn’t gonna work here as you take too much damage from too many sources to sweep (Dig, TPunch, etc). I actually tried Barrier here and while it turns your once 2hkos into 3hkos (Sludge Bomb poisons could speed up the process potentially), the defense buffs allow you to eat the hits that would otherwise kill you. I managed to get to Hitmonlee on about 6 hp, which I feel is a good enough showing. Decent/good.
Steelix: At +3, you ohko Hitmontop as it harmlessly Digs and Counters. Lee Swaggers, which pretty much guarantees you ohko everything but at the cost of maybe hitting yourself. You don’t deal too much self-damage but leaving yourself open for repeated attacks is concerning. From there your biggest issue is Cross Chop’s high crit rate. Basically, don’t get unlucky. Good mu.
Ampharos: Ohko Onix with FB, 2hko everything else with electric moves. You’ll likely take at least one mon down (especially Onix if you run FB), but you’re too slow and take too much chip damage to kill more than one mon, and even then most of the kills I got came down to lucky paras. Bad mu.
Kadabra: Specs Psychic ohkos everything. Flawless
Tentacruel: Specs spamming isn’t gonna work here as you take too much damage from too many sources to sweep (Dig, TPunch, etc). I actually tried Barrier here and while it turns your once 2hkos into 3hkos (Sludge Bomb poisons could speed up the process potentially), the defense buffs allow you to eat the hits that would otherwise kill you. I managed to get to Hitmonlee on about 6 hp, which I feel is a good enough showing. Decent/good.
Levels are the same
Steelix: No Curse sweep as Houndoom and Gengar both ko you. You still can set up Curse for Umbreon and 2hko with EQ, worst it can do is PP stall with Double Team. 1v1 Murkrow naturally and Vileplume outspeeds and 2hkos with Petal Dance. Poor mu.
Ampharos: Roll to 2hko Umbreon with Thunder, you ignore DT cuz of Rain but you still can get Confused and take more damage from Faint Attacks than, say, Steelix. Houndoom sets up to +4 and ohkos you with Dark Pulse. Murkrow is ez. Gar is 2hkod by Discharge while FB 3hkos (watch for Destiny Bond tho). Vileplume beats you. Poor mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Gar and Plume with Psychic. Gar outspeeds but goes for Lick which doesn’t kill. Dodge the darks obviously. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf 3hkos Umbreon, this is generally a losing mu as Faint Attack and self-damage does too much. Ohkos Murkrow, Houndoom is a roll to ko but even at +2 you eat. Gar is 2hkod and Plume by Sludge Bomb. Decent mu.
Steelix: No Curse sweep as Houndoom and Gengar both ko you. You still can set up Curse for Umbreon and 2hko with EQ, worst it can do is PP stall with Double Team. 1v1 Murkrow naturally and Vileplume outspeeds and 2hkos with Petal Dance. Poor mu.
Ampharos: Roll to 2hko Umbreon with Thunder, you ignore DT cuz of Rain but you still can get Confused and take more damage from Faint Attacks than, say, Steelix. Houndoom sets up to +4 and ohkos you with Dark Pulse. Murkrow is ez. Gar is 2hkod by Discharge while FB 3hkos (watch for Destiny Bond tho). Vileplume beats you. Poor mu.
Kadabra: Ohko Gar and Plume with Psychic. Gar outspeeds but goes for Lick which doesn’t kill. Dodge the darks obviously. Poor mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Surf 3hkos Umbreon, this is generally a losing mu as Faint Attack and self-damage does too much. Ohkos Murkrow, Houndoom is a roll to ko but even at +2 you eat. Gar is 2hkod and Plume by Sludge Bomb. Decent mu.
Amphy is 43, rest 44
Steelix: Ice Fang 2hkos the DNites and Aero, only really gonna beat the ThunderNite because FireNite ohkos obviously and BlizzNite 2hkos first. Gyara is a no-go and Zard takes too little damage. You can Curse up on ThunderNite but it still lives even at +2 and Zard will clean you up while you 3hko back with Payback. Bad mu.
Ampharos: Kills Gyara / Aero / Zard but struggles hard against the Dnites. Can generally live a hit and para tho so that’s neat (FireNite has a chance to ohko tho). Decent.
Kadabra: Doesn’t ohko shit and dies to anything back. Terrible mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Blizzard allows you to ohko the DNites, however FireNite can potentially live and ThunderNite outspeeds because Lance is a cheating fucking bastard with perfect ivs and a +speed nature. Also ohko Aero and Zard with Surf. Definitely not gonna sweep or anything. Decent ig.
Steelix: Ice Fang 2hkos the DNites and Aero, only really gonna beat the ThunderNite because FireNite ohkos obviously and BlizzNite 2hkos first. Gyara is a no-go and Zard takes too little damage. You can Curse up on ThunderNite but it still lives even at +2 and Zard will clean you up while you 3hko back with Payback. Bad mu.
Ampharos: Kills Gyara / Aero / Zard but struggles hard against the Dnites. Can generally live a hit and para tho so that’s neat (FireNite has a chance to ohko tho). Decent.
Kadabra: Doesn’t ohko shit and dies to anything back. Terrible mu.
Tentacruel: Specs Blizzard allows you to ohko the DNites, however FireNite can potentially live and ThunderNite outspeeds because Lance is a cheating fucking bastard with perfect ivs and a +speed nature. Also ohko Aero and Zard with Surf. Definitely not gonna sweep or anything. Decent ig.
Steelix to A: Drops off a little bit at the end of the league but stays amazingly consistent for the majority of the game. Great typing, good stats overall, and great movepool for hitting a ton of the game. Only major issue is getting the metal coat.
Mareep to B: Mareep is really close to A but the pre-Amphy is kinda disappointing and it begins to drop off a bit again mid-league, fucking up at Bruno of all things and not getting past that. Very good mon overall tho.
Kadabra to B: Dabber is very good when it has the type advantage but tends to be lame when it doesn't. Because it's so frail, the slightest hiccup can spell its disaster, and since its stonewalled by anything that resists Psychic (a fair bit more common than one might expect tbh) those hiccups come around time and time again. Kinda on the fence with this one as well as it just sorta blanks mus like the rockets (except for the dark types) and the fighting specialists but other times it just kinda falls flat.
Tentacool to C: Cruel is your general Specs Surf spammer with the upsides of high speed and a decent secondary typing and the downsides of average power and low physical bulk. Even with Specs Cruel misses some ohkos you might seriously expect it to (even rival's Magneton is a roll, just to name one example). At league it only really performs well vs Koga, and you still won't full sweep that fight. It does about what a specs Surf spammer needs to do but not a ton outside of that, I feel.
For what is worth, my experience with Tentacool was slightly better, likely because of the positive nature it had, allowing me to OHKO a bit more consistently (and also gave me a better matchup against Kingdra). I would like to point out, however, that Rattata has a similar case where it needs a positive nature on its Speed to outspeed important Pokemon like Kingdra, so if we go as far as dropping Cool to C, then I'd argue Rattata def should stay in B, unless you consider spamming Vitamins on it, in which case this should apply to Tentacool as well.
As for whenever F-tier should get more open, I can make adjustments to my noms if that happens (like say which E-tiers should drop to F), my only worry is that other people that based their noms off the six-rank system may not be able to.
As for whenever F-tier should get more open, I can make adjustments to my noms if that happens (like say which E-tiers should drop to F), my only worry is that other people that based their noms off the six-rank system may not be able to.
This was supposed to be out last week. Whoops.
Starting off I will do some placements and the wrap this up with things that need just a few more tests to be placed and we can move off of them. The OP will be updated accordingly as well.
For right now, I am going to stop and upload another batch tomorrow. That is a good chunk of em. These are all on Consensus barring Mareep. If you personally see them being higher or lower, provide logs and make a case within two weeks.
Scyther and Scizor need some more tests. That's all off the top of my mind. I will make edits to this post if I think of anymore.
Edit: Lugia and Ho-Oh need more tests. Currently Lugia has a case for A but can be in B while Ho-Oh is slated for B.
Starting off I will do some placements and the wrap this up with things that need just a few more tests to be placed and we can move off of them. The OP will be updated accordingly as well.
Steelix - I think this one has ample time for tests so I am placing it. If you have grievances with this placement, do a test and make a case. Steelix is hereby in A.
Mareep - Controversial Mon Numero Uno. This has also had ample time to be tested and seems most of it is the same. Mareep is in B. The Flaaffy period is absolutely horrible. If the phase wasn't as bad as it is, Mareep would be an easy A, but alas it is not.
Wooper - The OG Red Counter. It's C.
Spinarak - From personal experience and others, it goes to E.
Jigglypuff and Clefairy - The two Pink Blobs. Both are placed in D.
Misdreavus - D. I've seen no one else test this outside of Ryota but it comes late and at a 5% encounter rate.
Natu - E
Kenya - C. It's a Fearow at the end of the day, which means waning power and quite bad at that.
Machop (No Trade) - C. Obviously this is Muscle. Machoke is always pretty bad as it's not Machamp.
Staryu - B
Sandshrew - C
Voltorb - C
Murkrow - E
Pineco - D
Tentacool - B (Has a case for A. I will test myself to make my own decision but I will be skipping the Cool phase. I've done it too many times and will not do it again)
Lapras - B
Stantler - C
Miltank and Tauros - B
Mr. Mime - D
Horsea - D
Grimer - E
Rhyhorn - E
Sentret - C
Mareep - Controversial Mon Numero Uno. This has also had ample time to be tested and seems most of it is the same. Mareep is in B. The Flaaffy period is absolutely horrible. If the phase wasn't as bad as it is, Mareep would be an easy A, but alas it is not.
Wooper - The OG Red Counter. It's C.
Spinarak - From personal experience and others, it goes to E.
Jigglypuff and Clefairy - The two Pink Blobs. Both are placed in D.
Misdreavus - D. I've seen no one else test this outside of Ryota but it comes late and at a 5% encounter rate.
Natu - E
Kenya - C. It's a Fearow at the end of the day, which means waning power and quite bad at that.
Machop (No Trade) - C. Obviously this is Muscle. Machoke is always pretty bad as it's not Machamp.
Staryu - B
Sandshrew - C
Voltorb - C
Murkrow - E
Pineco - D
Tentacool - B (Has a case for A. I will test myself to make my own decision but I will be skipping the Cool phase. I've done it too many times and will not do it again)
Lapras - B
Stantler - C
Miltank and Tauros - B
Mr. Mime - D
Horsea - D
Grimer - E
Rhyhorn - E
Sentret - C
For right now, I am going to stop and upload another batch tomorrow. That is a good chunk of em. These are all on Consensus barring Mareep. If you personally see them being higher or lower, provide logs and make a case within two weeks.
Scyther and Scizor need some more tests. That's all off the top of my mind. I will make edits to this post if I think of anymore.
Edit: Lugia and Ho-Oh need more tests. Currently Lugia has a case for A but can be in B while Ho-Oh is slated for B.
Last edited:
Finished my run. Logs and noms below.
Raticate (34)
- Rat’s Return easily 2HKO’s all of Petrel’s Koffing(s). The only thing you need to watch out for is a possible Self-Destruct from a Koffing.
- Weezing (32) comes out; Rat uses Super Fang to knock it down to half HP. Weezing’s Sludge is a 3-4HKO and does not poison.
- Return fails to 2HKO Weezing who retaliates with Sludge. Rat survives and finishes Weezing with Quick Attack. Leveled up to 35
- Koffing comes out and I heal Rat back to full HP. Sludge poisons Rat who 2HKO’s Koffing with Return
- Guts-boosted Return easily OHKO’s his remaining Mons.
- Great matchup. Guts-boosted STAB moves are strong, but I did notice that Return already dealt a huge amount of damage without it once Rat leveled up to 35
- Nidoking is now running Thunder/Blizzard/Shadow Ball with Specs instead of Quick Claw as my standard set. Dropped Sludge Bomb because its coverage was never really useful even if it was stronger than Dig.
- Nido out-speeds and OHKO’s Petrel’s Koffing(s) with Shadow Ball. If Koffing survives, it may Self-Destruct and will deal at least 50% to Nido from full.
- Nido can 2HKO Weezing with or without a SpD drop. However, Weezing can Explode and OHKO in return
- Good matchup
- Rocky out-speeds Koffing and uses Screech. Koffing uses Smokescreen, but Rocky lands Iron Tail and OHKOs it. Payback can also 2HKO Petrel’s Koffings after 2 Screeches
- Weezing out-speeds Rocky, but cannot deal any major damage to it. However, it will use Smokescreen until you can actually land a hit on it. Eventually, I landed a Screech then used Iron Tail which is a 2HKO. Leveled up to 34
- Decent to meh matchup because of the constant misses. Rocky ran out of Iron Tail PP before I could even KO all of his Koffing. Plus it needs to get off multiple Screeches at -6 Accuracy to beat the rest of his Koffings with Payback
- Lanturn out-speeds Koffing and sets up Rain Dance. Thunder or Surf can OHKO all of his Koffing(s). Something to note is that Surf can achieve this feat even outside of the rain if you give Lanturn the Mystic Water.
- In the rain, Surf barely misses the OHKO on Weezing. Sludge crits and poisons Lanturn, so I heal it back to full.
- Rain ends and the next Koffing scores a crit with Sludge. Lanturn resets rain while Koffing uses Smokescreen. Leveled up to 34
- Great matchup
Lanturn (34)
- Golbat out-speeds Lanturn and flinches with Bite. Lanturn sets up Rain and OHKO’s Golbat with Surf
- Magnemite comes out and is also OHKO’d by Surf
- Haunter out-speeds and uses Mean Look. In the rain, Surf OHKO’s it. Leveled up to 35
- Quilava (34) uses Smokescreen before getting OHKO’d by Surf. Rain ends as Sneasel comes out
- Faint Attack only chips Lanturn who 2HKO’s Sneasel with Surf
- Good matchup if you chose Chikorita or Cyndaquil as your starter. Bad matchup otherwise since Meganium is probably not beatable thanks to Petal Dance + bulk/speed.
- Golbat gets 2HKO’d by Return. It confuses Rat before dying to Quick Attack
- Magnemite is beatable thanks to Super Fang, but it will use Thunder Wave to send Rat to parafusion hell. Even if you remove it, Mag will continue to use Thunder Wave/Supersonic
- It takes one Super Fang to 2HKO Mag with Return. Alternatively, swap out one of its other moves for Dig and OHKO it
- Quilava is 2HKO’d by Return/Quick Attack and it burns Rat with Flame Wheel.
- Sneasel (34) is OHKO’d by Guts-boosted Return. Leveled up to 36
- Haunter is OHKO’d by Crunch
- Great matchup if you chose Chikorita. Meganium may be too bulky for Rat to beat, but Super Fang + Return could probably overwhelm it. Even better, if it procs Guts with Powder. Feraligatr might beat it 1v1, but I wouldn’t know without logs. Super Fang/Return could break even Gatr
- After a Screech, Rocky 2HKO’s Golbat with Payback. It did confuse Rocky before it died, otherwise, Golbat cannot hurt Rocky. Leveled up to 34
- Quilava uses Smokescreen before getting OHKO’d by Dig. Flame Wheel is physical, so I doubt Quil can even hurt Rocky significantly.
- Dig 2HKO’s Sneasel while Iron Tail can OHKO it if it manages to land a hit.
- Haunter uses Mean Look then gets OHKO’d by boosted Payback from Rocky. Leveled up to 35
- Mag gets OHKO’d by Dig. It could attempt to hax Rocky with confusion, but its death is inevitable
- Great matchup. Rocky takes no damage from any of Silver’s team if you picked Chikorita as your starter. Feraligatr makes it into a decent matchup since Rocky cannot beat it 1v1 without healing repeatedly. I’m not sure about Meganium since it can set up Reflect to boost its bulk and Petal Dance hits Rocky’s weaker SpDef stat.
- Specs Thunder can OHKO Golbat if it hits. Nido did out-speed it, but crit Air Cutter/confusion could end up KO’ing it if you’re unlucky
- Sneasel gets OHKO’d by Fire Blast, or 2HKO’d by Thunder. It can out-speed Nidoking and 3HKO it with Faint Attack, but it may proc Poison Point.
- Nido out-speeds Quil and OHKO’s it with Dig. Alternatively, it can 2-3HKO Quil with Shadow Ball. Leveled up to 34
- Haunter gets out-sped and OHKO’d by Shadow Ball
- Mag gets OHKO’d by Dig and out-sped by Nido
- Good matchup, but you have to switch around constantly to beat Silver’s team even if he’s using Quilava. Feraligatr likely destroys Nidoking unless you can land an OHKO with Specs Thunder. Meganium may beat Nido with Petal Dance if Blizzard misses, or fails to OHKO it.
Raticate (36)
- Return is a 2HKO on Golbat. A crit Wing Attack can 2HKO Rat from full HP, but it only happened to me once.
- Weezing’s Sludge is a 3HKO, but after poison damage it becomes a 2HKO. Guts-boosted Return can 2HKO Weezing, so long as Rat is at full HP. Using Super Fang first makes it easier to beat Weezing and preserve Rat’s HP
- Good mu, but Proton is basically a glorified Rocket Grunt anyways
- After a Screech, Golbat gets OHKO’d by Payback
- Payback 2HKO’s Weezing after Screech once it manages to hit. Both his Mons out-speed Rocky, but neither can deal any major damage to it
- Good mu
- Specs Shadow Ball 2HKO’s Golbat and Weezing. Nido out-speeds and beats his whole team
- Good mu
- Rain-boosted Surf OHKO’s his whole team. Lanturn gets out-sped by Golbat, but not Weezing
- Good mu
Raticate (36)
- After Super Fang, Arbok gets KO’d by Return. Rat avoids Glare
- Murkrow is 2HKO’d by Return/Quick Attack.
- Return is a 2HKO, but Vileplume puts Rat to sleep. Cured Rat then KO’d Plume with Return
- Good mu
- Arbok’s Glare paralyzes Rocky, and it avoids Dig. I decide to use Screech before using Dig to OHKO Arbok
- After a Screech, Plume is 2HKO’d by Iron Tail + Payback
- Rocky uses Screech on Murkrow before OHKO’ing it with Iron Tail.
- Good mu
- In the rain, Arbok is 2HKO’d by Surf, but it only barely survived the first hit.
- Plume gets 2HKO’d by Blizzard if it manages to hit twice in a row. Lanturn does out-speed it, but Plume’s Mega Drain can wear down your HP, esp. if you get put to sleep.
- Even without rain, Surf can probably OHKO Murkrow with decent IVs. However, my Lanturn only 2HKO’d it
- Good mu
- Arbok gets 2HKO’d by Dig. Glare can be annoying, but not too detrimental
- Nido is out-sped by Murkrow, but it lands an OHKO with Blizzard
- Plume is also OHKO’d by Blizzard and out-sped by Nido
- Good mu
Raticate (36)
- Rat out-speeds Houndour and uses Super Fang + Return to 2HKO it.
- Houndoom (38) comes out and is also out-sped by Rat. Doom’s Fire Fang is a 2-3HKO
- Return 2HKO’s Koffing
- Good mu
- Eats Fire Fang from both Houndour and Doom. Dig OHKO’s Houndour, but can only 2HKO Houndoom.
- Koffing gets OHKO’d by Iron Tail after a Screech
- Good mu
- Houndour chips with Faint Attack and is OHKO’d by Surf outside of the rain
- Houndoom’s Faint Attack is stronger and could 3HKO Lanturn. However, it used Bite instead of finishing off Lanturn, and got 2HKO’d by Surf
- Surf 2HKO’s Koffing. Lanturn does get out-sped by it, but it cannot do any significant damage to Lanturn
- In the rain, Lanturn OHKO’s his entire team with Surf
- Good mu
- Houndour gets OHKO’d by Dig/Thunder. Leveled up to 36
- Koffing is 2HKO’d by Shadow Ball, or OHKO’d by Thunder
- Doom out-speeds and nearly OHKO’s Nido with a crit Fire Fang twice. Dig can 2HKO Doom back while Fire Fang is usually a 3HKO. Thunder is a 2HKO on Doom.
- Alternatively, Surf can OHKO Houndour and 2HKO Koffing/Houndoom.
- Good mu
Rocky (40)
- Gyarados comes out and uses Dragon Rage while Rocky lands Iron Tail (mis-click on my part). With a crit, Iron Tail can 2HKO Gyarados.
- Rocky starts setting up Curse (x3). Gyarados is then KO’d by Payback.
- Kingdra comes out and immediately OHKO’s Rocky with Hydro Pump. Unless it misses, there’s not much Rocky can do against Kingdra
- A meh to decent mu for Rocky depending on how much you value its ability to beat the rest of her team.
- Personally, I consider Rocky’s performance against Clair to be below average as it cannot beat Kingdra, her ace, reliably on its own. Thus, Rocky loses the Atk. boosts it needs to successfully handle the rest of her team and has to switch in on either Fire Blast or Aqua Tail from one of her Dragonairs. Ideally, you would want Rocky to take an attack from the latter, but there’s no way of knowing which one she sends out. Plus, Rocky has no recovery moves beyond Rest which it can use to heal itself while boosting.
- Nido out-speeds and OHKO’s Gyarados with Specs Thunder. Leveled up to 39
- Nido out-speeds and OHKO’s both her Dragonair with Specs Blizzard
- Kingdra comes out and OHKO’s Nido with Pump.
- A decent mu as Nido can actually beat most of Clair’s team without support or boosting. However, Thunder/Blizzard’s accuracy can cause issues for Nido, so I do not consider its performance to be anything higher than “acceptable”.
- Rat sets up Swords Dance while Gyarados uses Bite which is usually a 3HKO. I was able to get 2 SD’s off, but only after using a potion. So, 1-2 is likely the most you’ll be able to get, assuming Gyarados doesn’t flinch Rat with Bite or KO with a lucky crit.
- Gyarados can be OHKO’d by Return, but it is a roll even with Rat’s above average Attack IV’s. You’d need to be at +5 to beat Gyarados with Return which is impossible without healing multiple times in a row.
- Dragonair comes out and is OHKO’d by Return. Leveled up to 37
- Kingdra is out-sped, but it cannot be OHKO’d with Return at +3. Rat was able to knock out most of its HP, but only achieved a 2HKO after Sitrus Berry. Pump will nearly always OHKO Rat, but I lucked out and it missed one time. In another attempt, Rat barely survived it at 2 HP from full health. I assume this was a low roll tho
- Decent to below average matchup for Raticate
- Rat did get paralyzed once, but it was already at +4 on that attempt so it still OHKO’d Dragonair. Guts Façade is probably ridiculously strong after a Swords Dance, but Rat really needs the speed advantage here to beat Clair’s team
- Something to note is that my Rat has a 27 Atk. IV and a 25 Speed IV. On paper, it could be argued that Raticate’s access to Swords Dance + STAB Return along with its acceptable base stats may give it a chance to sweep Clair’s whole team on its own.
- But, Ryota’s Raticate had really crappy IVs in Attack and Speed, and it failed to beat Clair’s Kingdra at Lv. 37, just as my own did. So, I think IV’s definitely play a role in Rat’s varying performance amongst testers. I expect the E4 to decide its position as an A or B-tier Mon
- Swapped Mystic Water for the Magnet
- Gyarados uses Dragon Rage while Lanturn sets up Rain Dance. Thunder OHKO’s Gyarados. Leveled up to 37
- Dragonair (Aqua Tail) uses Dragon Pulse which only chips Lanturn. Blizzard 2HKO’s Dragonair as the rain ends.
- Kingdra’s Pulse is a guaranteed 3HKO on Lanturn. Reset the rain and attempt to KO Kingdra with Thunder which is a 5HKO at best after Sitrus Berry. Clair will heal Kingdra once you proc the Berry. I did manage to paralyze Kingdra, but without paralysis or Charge Beam, Lanturn cannot beat Kingdra reliably
- For testing purposes, I got Lanturn up to +3 using X-items, and it still only 3-4HKO’d Kingdra at best.
- Dragonair (Fire Blast) gets 2HKO’d by Blizzard
- Below average matchup for Lanturn. While it can beat Clair’s team, it needs a lot of support to do so on its own including weather, healing items, RNG boosts, etc.
- Nidoking (40)
- Sneasel gets 2HKO’d by Specs Thunder. Faint Attack is a 3-4HKO
- Kadabra gets out-sped and OHKO’d by Shadow Ball. Leveled up to 41
- Haunter is also OHKO’d and out-sped
- Typhlosion is 2HKO’d by Dig, with or without Reflect up. Nido can out-speed it too, and only gets 2HKO’d by Lava Plume.
- Nido out-speeds and OHKO’s Golbat with Thunder/Blizzard if it hits.
- Magneton is OHKO’d by Dig
- Good matchup, but you have to do a lot of switching to win this one as per usual with Nidoking. However, nothing on Silver’s team can actually beat Nidoking if he’s using Typhlosion it seems. Meganium/Gatr are probably harder to beat, but they’re the only real obstacle for it
- Rat uses SD twice and takes an Icy Wind from Sneasel. Faint Attack can only 4HKO Rat, but you do get out-sped thanks to the speed loss from Icy Wind. Return OHKO’s Sneasel and I switch out Rat to reset its speed.
- Golbat is OHKO’d by a +2 Return. Watch out for confusion as it can mess up a potential sweep
- Return 2HKO’s Magneton who procs Guts by paralyzing Rat with T-wave. Leveled up to 41
- A Guts-boosted Return OHKO’s Typhlosion from full HP. Rat tanks a Lava Plume at about 75% HP too.
- Guts-boosted Quick Attack allows you to OHKO Kadabra too. Psybeam can 3HKO you back, but it doesn’t matter thanks to priority
- Haunter uses Curse (lol) and gets KO’d by Crunch
- Great to good matchup for Raticate. Gatr/Meganium are likely harder to break with only one SD and no Guts boost tho.
- Sneasel can’t do anything as per usual to Rocky, other than providing free XP. Rocky boosts up to +4 with Curse than OHKO’s it with EQ. Leveled up to 41
- Typhlosion will always OHKO Rocky with Lava Plume.
- Haunter uses Mean Look and Rocky Curses twice. Haunter does lower Rocky’s SpDef. with Shadow Ball before dying to Payback
- Kadabra sets up Reflect and gets OHKO’d by Payback from Rocky. I used an X-item to raise Rocky’s Atk. by +1
- A +3 Payback can 2HKO Golbat after Reflect. Leveled up to 42
- Magneton is OHKO’d by EQ
- Decent matchup, but Silver’s team is either really frail, or weak to one of Rocky’s coverage moves regardless. His starter is really the only Mon that I consider a threat, and Rocky cannot beat Typhlosion. Meganium and Feraligatr, however, are easier to beat since neither of them can break through it
- Lanturn sets up Rain Dance and only takes chip damage from Sneasel’s attacks. Surf can 2HKO Sneasel
- Thunder OHKO’s Golbat who cannot hurt Lanturn with any of its attacks
- Haunter can prove tricky since Curse/confusion can end up whittling down Lanturn’s HP. Rain is super important for Lanturn to achieve any KO’s at all, so getting out-sped and taking constant passive damage isn’t doing it any favors.
- Kadabra is 2HKO’d by Surf in the rain
- Magneton is 2HKO’d by rain-boosted Surf
- Lanturn can 2HKO Typhlosion with Surf, even outside of the rain. Typhlosion can’t do anything back either
- Decent matchup, but I’m not really too impressed with Lanturn at this point.
Nidoking (43)
- Xatu (40) can be OHKO’d by Shadow Ball, but it is a roll. It can 2HKO Nido back with Psychic, but I was able to out-speed it.
- Jynx is 2HKO’d by Shadow Ball and can OHKO back with Psychic. However, this seems to be a roll as I was able to avoid the OHKO just barely
- Slowbro is 2HKO’d by Shadow Ball, but it 2HKO’s Nido back with Psychic/Water Pulse
- Exeggutor barely survives Shadow Ball, and will always OHKO Nido with Psychic. Leveled up to 44
- Xatu (42) can 2HKO Nido with Psychic, but it is out-sped and 2HKO’d back by Shadow Ball
- Poor matchup as Nidoking relies on KO’ing everything in sight in this fight. Unfortunately, it’s weak to every member of Will’s team, and it needs lots of healing to beat more than two members of his team on its own.
- Xatu (40) spams Me First while Rocky Curses (x2). Payback OHKO’s it
- I was able to replicate ceal’s strategy against Slowbro and successfully baited a heal from Will. I then used Curse (3) while Bro continued boosting up with Curse (5) and Amnesia (1). It took 3 Paybacks to KO Bro after the heal
- Jynx uses Lovely Kiss, but it cannot hurt Rocky without a crit + a Sp. Def. drop. It did manage to do this on me by first knocking down Rocky’s SpD with Psychic then critting it with another Psychic for a clean 2HKO
- A +3 Payback OHKO’s Jynx, it just takes a while to achieve. Leveled up to 44
- Eggy sets up Reflect and lowers Rocky’s SpD with Psychic. It also put Rocky to sleep and got 3 SpD drops in a row with Psychic (Goddamn RNG). Payback at +3 can 2HKO, but glhf with that when you’re so damn slow that even Eggy can run circles around you
- After 3 Curses, Payback OHKO’s Xatu (42). Confusion can be annoying, but it can’t actually KO Rocky without some seriously bad luck. Like, an Omni-boost from Ominous Wind, crits, and stat drops
- Below average to decent matchup depending on your luck with RNG.
- Xatu (40) confuses Rat and 2HKO’s it with Psychic. Rat sets up SD (x2) and avoids hurting itself.
- A +4 Crunch OHKO’s Xatu and Jynx if you heal off the confusion with a Full Restore. Leveled up to 44 after beating Jynx
- Eggy, Bro, and Xatu (42) all get OHKO’d by Crunch at +4
- Below average matchup, because Rat does need some item support and luck to successfully pull off a sweep here. It cannot take many hits in this fight, so you absolutely have to heal off the damage against his first Xatu to get more than one SD up
- Sets up Rain Dance and tanks a Psychic from Xatu (40). Thanks to Volt Absorb, Me First ends up healing Lanturn who OHKO’s Xatu with Thunder
- Jynx is 2HKO’d by Surf in the rain, but Lovely Kiss can allow it to stall out the rain.
- Blizzard 2HKO’s Eggy, assuming that it hits. Eggy actually managed to land Hypnosis on Lanturn twice while Blizzard missed on both of my attempts to KO it.
- Eggy cannot do anything back to Lanturn since it lacks any Grass STAB moves, but it did KO Lanturn with a crit Psychic once
- However, I managed to actually freeze Eggy with Blizzard, but it immediately unthawed after I tried to take advantage of it and reset rain.
- Lanturn actually managed out-speed Bro and can 2HKO with Thunder. Since the first hit puts Slowbro in the red, Lanturn can finish it off with Surf (with or without the rain)
- Xatu (42) gets OHKO’d by Thunder, and cannot hurt Lanturn at all. Leveled up to 44
- Good matchup, and the only half-decent one from this entire team against Will.
Lanturn (44)
- Ariados is out-sped and 2HKO’d by Surf in the rain. Poison Jab only chips Lanturn, but you need to heal off the poison
- Fort only sets up T-Spikes and it cannot hurt Lanturn. Outside of the rain, Surf can 3HKO Fort at best without a stat boost from Charge Beam or an X-item. I forgot to reset the rain after healing Lanturn, but it likely turns that 3HKO into a 2HKO. Definitely not an OHKO tho
- Reset the rain while Muk spams Minimize. Lanturn out-speeds and 3HKO’s Muk with a boosted Surf after Black Sludge recovery. Toxic can mess up Lanturn, and Gunk Shot is an easy 2HKO if it lands. In my case, Muk landed it five times in a row and poisoned Lanturn 3/5 times.
- Lanturn sets up rain again and can only chip Muk with Thunder until it finally dies.
- Crobat spams Double Team and gets 2HKO’d by Thunder, but it’s very close to being an OHKO. I managed to paralyze it and finished it with Thunder
- Venomoth not only lands Toxic but also confuses Lanturn with Supersonic. In the rain, Surf 2HKO’s it and it cannot hurt you otherwise. However, it can be annoying to fight since it out-speeds and tries to status Lanturn to death
- Decent matchup, but Lanturn fears residual damage from Koga’s status moves.
- Earth Power 2HKO’s Ariados who cannot deal any damage back to Nido. Venomoth is also 2HKO’d by EP. It used Supersonic instead of Psychic for some reason
- Fort is also 2HKO’d easily by EP. It can Explode, but it seems to focus on Protect/T-Spikes for the first few turns
- Bat uses Double Team and is 4HKO’d by Shadow Ball after Sitrus Berry. Wing Attack can only 4HKO you in return, but DT spam makes it impossible to outright KO Bat with Thunder/Blizzard. However, after a SpD drop, Shadow Ball can 2HKO Bat. Leveled up to 44
- Specs EP OHKO’s Muk. Nido out-speeds it too, so evasion hax isn’t really an issue for it
- Good matchup and you only need to switch out once if you have Earth Power.
- SD once and OHKO Ariados with Return. You could try to proc Guts with poison, but there are other ways to do this if you really wanted to.
- Return 2HKO’s Muk, but it can OHKO back with Gunk Shot if it lands. Leveled up to 44
- Fort doesn’t Explode and instead uses T-Spikes and Swift. Rat sets up SD three times and 2HKO’s with Return
- Return OHKO’s Venomoth and Crobat. Bat does out-speed, but it cannot do anything back without a crit + RNG
- Good matchup
- Ariados cannot do anything to Rocky who spams Curse (x6). After that, Rocky OHKO’s both Ariados and Venomoth with EQ
- Payback 2HKO’s Bat if you don’t like missing Iron Tail from all the DT spam. Leveled up to 44
- Muk gets OHKO’d by EQ
- Great matchup since Rocky walls his entire team to death.
Rocky (44)
- Hitmontop can’t do anything to Rocky, so just spam Curse (x6) as much as you like then OHKO it with EQ. Leveled up to 45
- Lee uses Swagger and dies to EQ.
- Chan actually burns Rocky with Fire Punch, but EQ still OHKO’s it from full (lol)
- Unfortunately, Machamp got a crit Cross Chop and OHKO’s Rocky. However, on my next attempt, I actually managed to stall Champ out of Cross Chop PP while spamming Curse to +6 again since it only has 5 PP
- Without Cross Chop, Rocky walls Champ and can OHKO it with EQ/Iron Tail. Leveled up to 46
- Onix gets wrecked by EQ
- Great to above average matchup, so long as you avoid a crit from Cross Chop/bad RNG. Lee can screw up your ability to sweep here since Swagger/HJK can potentially KO Rocky before it can beat the rest of his team.
- Rat boosts up to +6 with SD while Top spams Counter. Return OHKO’s Top who never used any move besides Counter for some reason.
- Tho I doubt that Triple Kick does much damage considering it’s only roughly 60 BP if it hits 3 times in a row.
- Quick Attack OHKO’s Lee, so you avoid HJK entirely. Leveled up to 44
- +6 Return OHKO’s Machamp and Chan
- Return 2HKO’s Onix
- Great matchup, but may be IV-dependent. Something to note here is that my Raticate has crappy IVs in both HP and Defense, so I don’t think it’s impossible for most players to set up SD to +6 on Top. I’d be curious to know if a +6 Return with bad Atk IVs could achieve the same results as I know that my Raticate has a solid 27 Atk. IV
- Top 3HKO’s Lanturn with Dig, but Surf 2HKO’s it back in the rain. This is likely thanks to my Lanturn’s perfect HP IV and Relaxed nature.
- Onix uses Rock Slide to finish off Lanturn, but I heal up to full. Rain ends this turn, but it doesn’t matter since Surf OHKO’s Onix and EQ only 2HKO’s back. Also, it will set up Sandstorm before it dies
- Champ’s Cross Chop will always 2HKO Lanturn, and it’s too slow to do anything back.
- Chan gets 2HKO’d by Surf in the rain. It cannot hurt Lanturn with any of its moves
- Lee uses Focus Energy while Lanturn 2HKO’s with Surf. It uses Swagger before dying, but it misses Lanturn
- Decent mu as Lanturn can beat most of his team except for Champ.
- Out-speeds and easily 2HKO’s Top with Specs Earth Power. It only spams Counter back, presumably because of Nido’s higher base Attack stat or something.
- Onix is OHKO’d by EP
- Chan is 2HKO’d by EP, but it can 2HKO back with Ice Punch
- Lee is 2HKO’d by EP and out-sped by Nido. It uses Blaze Kick to chip Nido before getting KO’d
- Nido resists all of Champ’s moves, and Cross Chop cannot KO it without a crit. Poison Point is actually pretty useful here since you can get off residual damage on Champ. EP is a 4HKO at best, so Sludge Bomb could actually be useful here for that 30% chance to poison.
- Decent matchup, but Nidoking cannot beat his whole team on its own without some item support
Lanturn (44)
- Umbreon speed-ties with my Lanturn and wins the tie. It confuses Lanturn then starts spamming Double Team. In the rain, Surf is a 3HKO, but it can be difficult to achieve because of hax
- Something to note is that Karen’s AI occasionally switches in a counter to your Pokemon. For instance, once Umbreon was in easy KO range, Karen switched out to Vileplume.
- Vileplume can easily 2HKO Lanturn with Petal Dance. Even if Lanturn out-speeds it, Blizzard is only a 2HKO, assuming that it hits
- Houndoom sets up Nasty Plot while Lanturn resets the rain. Lanturn can survive a +2 Dark Pulse and OHKO’s Doom with Surf, but it is a roll
- Murkrow cannot hurt Lanturn and gets OHKO’d by Thunder
- Gengar’s Focus Blast is a 3HKO while Surf without rain 3HKO’s back. Destiny Bond can screw over your attempts to KO it, but I was able to avoid it by setting up Rain Dance. Since the move only had 2 PP left, Gengar used Spite to remove the rest and Lanturn KO’d it with Surf
- The AI is really wonky, so I don’t think it’s a very reliable method of beating Gengar.
- Meh matchup. Lanturn’s performance is pretty shaky here since it really needs the rain to be up at all times throughout this fight. Unfortunately, Umbreon will stall out the rain and half her team does too much damage for Lanturn to survive the entire fight without lots of healing.
- After 2 Curses, EQ is a 2HKO on Umbreon. You could set up more than that, but there’s no way Rocky can beat Houndoom who I predicted would come out after I KO’d Umbreon. DT spam can make it difficult to actually KO it unless you max out the PP on EQ
- Gengar’s Focus Blast OHKO’s Rocky who can only hope to catch it on the switch with Payback. Leveled up to 45
- Even without a Nasty Plot, Doom OHKO’s Rocky with Flamethrower
- Rocky is 3HKO’d by Vileplume’s Petal Dance. At +2, EQ OHKO’s Plume back, but you may need to heal if it lands Stun Spore
- Murkrow is KO’d by Iron Tail, but it can remove your Curse boosts by using Whirlwind
- Bad matchup.
- A +2 Return can 2HKO Umbreon, but Payback is a 2-3HKO since Rat out-speeds it. Don’t get greedy with the SD’s since DT spam/confusion can end up KO’ing Rat instead of Umbreon
- Rat out-speeds and OHKO’s Gengar with Crunch. Leveled up to 45
- Out-speeds and OHKO’s Doom, Murkrow, and Vileplume with Return
- Bad to very good matchup, dependent on your IVs/Nature.
- I think this definitely proves how IV’s can affect Rattata’s performance at the E4. Unlike Ryota, my Raticate has really solid Speed/Atk. IV’s, so I was able to achieve KO’s that he couldn’t. I was very surprised that I out-sped Houndoom which I do not think should normally be possible unless you have a really good Speed IV + a Speed-boosting Nature like I did.
- EP is a 3HKO on Umbreon while Payback is only a 4HKO. It will prompt a heal on Umbreon if it gets poisoned after the second EP, but she may not heal it a second time if Umbreon gets poisoned again.
- EP can OHKO Doom, but it is a roll. If it fails to KO, Nido goes down to a +2 Dark Pulse
- Nido OHKO’s Murkrow with Thunder, assuming that it hits. Leveled up to 44
- EP 2HKO’s Vileplume. Petal Dance is a 3HKO, but excluding a lucky crit, there’s nothing it can do back.
- Gengar is 2HKO’d by Shadow Ball, but you’ll need to avoid or stall out Destiny Bond. Focus Blast only chips Nido, but Lick can paralyze you.
- Decent matchup. Disappointed that EP cannot OHKO Doom 100% of the time, but I am satisfied to know that it is possible for Nido to beat it.
Raticate (44)
- Rat out-speeds Gyarados and sets up SD. Waterfall 2HKO’s it easily, and Return fails to OHKO. Even if you sack something as Intimidate fodder, Return still only 2HKO’s Gyarados.
- I know that ceal overcame this hurdle by lowering Gyarados’s Attack with an Intimidate Mon, but I don’t consider that a viable way of measuring Rat’s performance if it’s relying on something else to successfully pull off a sweep here.
- Additionally, I didn’t bring the Red Gyarados with me to the E4 since I only used it on Victory Road as an HM slave. I brought my other HM slaves (Furret/Kenya) with me instead as sack fodder.
- Poor matchup. Rat gets 1-2HKO’d by every member of Lance’s team, but it can sweep with considerable support. I didn’t bother testing it though for the aforementioned reasons.
- Waterfall cleanly 2HKO’s Rocky. There’s no way to set up Curse here since Gyarados out-speeds you.
- BlizzNite 2HKO’s Rocky unless it misses.
- Dragonite (50) OHKO’s Rocky with Fire Blast
- Even if you get up to +2 or higher with Curse on ThunderNite, Charizard will finish off Rocky by spamming Air Slash. While it is a 4HKO at best on Rocky, the 30% flinch can make it difficult for Rocky to even damage Zard with Payback.
- At +3, Payback will 2HKO, but you’ll need to spam potions to keep Rocky alive. Leveled up to 45
- Something to note is that even at +4, Rocky failed to OHKO both Dragonites (49) with Iron Tail. But, it can 2HKO them with Payback at +4
- Bad matchup.
- You out-speed Gyarados, but if you miss Thunder, Nido will get 1-2HKO’d by Waterfall. It is a roll to OHKO, but I wouldn’t rely on it since my Nidoking just barely lived it
- Specs Thunder can OHKO Gyarados, but it is a roll.
- BlizzNite speed-ties and can OHKO Nido unless it misses. If it does, Nido can OHKO it with its own Blizzard
- ThunderNite is also OHKO’d by Blizzard, if it lands. Dragon Rush can 2HKO Nido, so missing, getting flinched, or out-sped can prove deadly. Leveled up to 45
- Nido speed-ties and can OHKO Dragonite (50) with Specs Blizzard if it hits.
- Nido out-speeds and 2HKO’s Zard with Specs Surf. However, Zard can 2HKO it back with Air Slash
- Specs Surf 2HKO’s Aero. Aerial Ace can 3HKO Nido
- Below average to decent matchup. Nidoking speed-tying with Lance’s Dragonites makes its performance here more shaky than I would like it to be. In general, none of my team could reliably handle all three of Lance’s Dragonites, but most Mons in this game can’t do that anyway.
- Swapped out the MW for the NeverMeltIce to boost the power of Blizzard.
- I didn’t set up Rain Dance in this fight because it will boost the power of Gyarados’ Waterfall. And even without the rain, taking repeated Waterfalls isn’t something Lanturn enjoys doing, esp. if it gets flinched more than once.
- That aside, Gyarados cannot KO Lanturn with any of its attacks, so a few misses from Thunder are inconsequential. Once it lands, Thunder will OHKO Gyarados.
- Dragonite (50) can easily 2HKO Lanturn with Outrage. Since it will always out-speed Lanturn, there’s no way to beat it with Blizzard
- Both Dragonites (49) will always 2HKO Lanturn with Dragon Rush. NMI Blizzard can 2HKO them back, but Lance will heal them back to full since it puts them into potion range.
- Also, unless you heal, stall out Dragon Rush’s PP, or they miss, Lanturn cannot take another attack from either of them
- Zard is 2HKO’d in the rain by Surf or Thunder. Unless it crits with Shadow Claw, it cannot hurt Lanturn at all. Leveled up to 45
- Aero’s Rock Slide will 3HKO Lanturn. In the rain, Surf OHKO’s it back, but you’ll need to set it up beforehand. Without healing, Lanturn cannot reset the weather if rain ended
- Bad matchup. Lanturn only beats two of Lance’s frailest mons, but it may need healing to do even that.
Rattata >>> B
Nidoran-M >>> B
- Despite what others have claimed, I do not consider Rattata to be A-tier.
- Once you get past the Radio Tower, Rat starts to lose a lot of 1-on-1’s that are dependent on its IVs.
- The Elite 4 matchups are iffy to me since I don’t think it should have done as well as it did in some fights such as against Karen.
- Much like Kenya, it’s very frail and cannot take many hits, to the point it becomes deadweight against Lance unless you spam Double-Edge as Ryota did to chip away at his team’s health.
- However, Rat’s access to Swords Dance puts it above Kenya along with its access to a stronger offensive move-pool that includes priority and SE coverage for Steel/Rock-types which Kenya lacks.
- So, it’s not quite C-tier in my eyes as Kenya was, but definitely a solid B-tier Mon for most of the game.
- Amended nom from B to A. Reasoning below.
- Rocky shows one of the best early-game performances in the game thanks to its ability to wall and KO the vast majority of opponents, excluding a few exceptions in the mid/end-game.
- Pokeathlon item grinding for the Metal Coat can take some time, but it's not too bad since I'm using a DS. At most, I spent about 30-45 min. grinding at the events.
- Boosted XP is a nice benefit too since XP is harder to acquire in HGSS.
- Rocky's typing allows it to bulldoze its way through most fights in the game. Dig/Iron Tail can carry it through most fights, and Payback allows it to take advantage of its low Speed against faster foes.
- I did experience quite a bit of bad RNG at the Elite 4 against Will, so I got pretty tilted near the end of my run. If I hadn't, I think my experience would have matched that of others.
- Overall, Steelix earns its place as a solid A-tier Mon. It functions very differently than Golem, but it performs just as well, if not better, for the vast majority of the game.
Nidoran-M >>> B
- While Nidoran-M doesn’t do very well against Whitney, once you evolve it into Nidoking, its performance skyrockets. Nidoking’s vast movepool, above average stats, and early availability make it a good pick for any team in HGSS.
- Nidoran-M rarely let me down, but it wasn’t cheap to provide it all the tools it needs to achieve its performance.
- At the point you get it, the Goldenrod Store TMs are an expensive purchase, so it's better to pick up at least two of the elemental blasts that cover your team’s weaknesses if you can.
- Nevertheless, Nidoran-M doesn’t perform nearly well enough to be A-tier.
- Thanks to its reliance on Choice Specs for damage output, Nidoking will frequently need to be switched in and out of battle to deal with specific threats that resist or are immune to its coverage.
- Additionally, you’ll likely need to rotate its move-pool for many of its major battles. The mid-game can be a particularly rough period for Nidoking because of the variety of different types it must battle against.
- So, while Nidoking can theoretically hit every Pokemon in the game for super-effective damage, its move-pool has to be swapped around to do so.
- To make matters worse, the Amulet Coin isn’t available until after you beat the seventh gym in HGSS. And it’s not an immediate pickup either.
- You have to first beat Petrel on the top floor of the Radio Tower, avoiding or battling multiple TR Grunts along the way. You then have to backtrack to the warehouse in the basement of the department store to access the locked door with the Amulet Coin behind it.
- That aside, while money isn’t usually an issue in HGSS, Nidoking isn’t cheap to use. I usually had to soft reset multiple times to ensure I could keep the TMs I already bought, and there’s always a chance you can end up saving and having to backtrack to pick up that one specific TM you need for testing (i.e. the Blizzard TM for the Elite 4)
- Overall, Nidoking is a good B-tier Mon, but be prepared to shell out some Pokeyen (or hack) to ensure it remains useful throughout the game.
- While others consider Chinchou A-tier, I think there are some pretty significant flaws that hold Chinchou back compared to the other Surf/Rain Dance spammers in HGSS.
- These include its speed, lack of offensive presence, and the lengthy backtrack required to pick up all the tools it needs.
- IG I prefer to give Specs to faster Mons like Nidoking or good ol’ Typhlosion who are much more effective at using them than a slow, tanky Mon like Lanturn. While it certainly has the bulk to survive virtually any resisted or neutral attack, Chinchou relies heavily on items and weather to improve its matchups.
- Additionally, Chinchou is not easy to acquire as there’s only a 7% chance of catching one with a Good Rod. It’s not quite as hard to find as Staryu with its insane 3% encounter rate at night (which is why I now support B-tier for it), but it’s still a chore to find. I initially wanted a Chinchou with Volt Absorb and a Modest nature, but I couldn’t find one that had both.
- Unlike Staryu, Chinchou’s matchups are actually improved greatly with Volt Absorb since Electric-types are not immune to Thunder Wave in HGSS. So, the ability to absorb paralysis rather than be crippled by it is actually very useful for such a slow Pokemon.
- Personally, I think that ThunderDance is more reliable than Specs on Chinchou, but that is my preference for fast, powerful Mons as opposed to slower ones like Chinchou.
- I’ve never liked Charge Beam as an option for boosting SpA either. I find it unreliable even with its 70% chance because its imperfect accuracy can lead to shenanigans with the AI’s love of evasion tactics. Its base power is very underwhelming too.
- However, I know that other runs have used Charge Beam and found it improves some of Chinchou matchups (if it procs, that is).
- In short, Chinchou is an above average B-tier Pokemon that can prove a strong addition to many teams.
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so I am late to the party, but the reason why I believe Steelix deserves A-tier comes down to few factors:
- Amazing early-game. Onix, I'd argue, has a better early-game than Geodude due to being able to muscle through Whitney's Miltank with Screech, wheres Geodude has to overlevel and learn Rollout to beat it fast.
- Traded experience. I think we should not forget just how much broken traded exp. pre-Gen 5 really is. Considering Steelix has most of Team Rocket for free, it could easily overlevel and compensate for any bad matchups it has just by massively outleveling anything
- Even after the early-game, it's not like it's a deadweight, like Onix is, as it continues to be useful. Sure, it will have issues here and there and you will need to grind for a Metal Coat, but Geodude, which was brought up, has its own issues as well that prevented it from going to S-tier, mainly the fact you need to grind for a 1k item (essentially grinding for around 4-5 Abra) to make it reliable.
personally, I think great early-game + traded Experience + not dropping in viability significantly after three Gyms is pretty good for A, imo. I do recognize its issues, but I think the good traits are enough for A-tier.
- Amazing early-game. Onix, I'd argue, has a better early-game than Geodude due to being able to muscle through Whitney's Miltank with Screech, wheres Geodude has to overlevel and learn Rollout to beat it fast.
- Traded experience. I think we should not forget just how much broken traded exp. pre-Gen 5 really is. Considering Steelix has most of Team Rocket for free, it could easily overlevel and compensate for any bad matchups it has just by massively outleveling anything
- Even after the early-game, it's not like it's a deadweight, like Onix is, as it continues to be useful. Sure, it will have issues here and there and you will need to grind for a Metal Coat, but Geodude, which was brought up, has its own issues as well that prevented it from going to S-tier, mainly the fact you need to grind for a 1k item (essentially grinding for around 4-5 Abra) to make it reliable.
personally, I think great early-game + traded Experience + not dropping in viability significantly after three Gyms is pretty good for A, imo. I do recognize its issues, but I think the good traits are enough for A-tier.
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Do you mean that Rocky should be at a higher level than the rest of the team because of its boosted XP? Or, do you mean that boosted XP, in general, should affect how his performance measures up to other Pokemon in the game? Regardless, I don't think that alone makes Rocky superior to other available Pokemon.
Yes, but you can over-level any Pokemon to compensate for its bad matchups. I never found the boosted XP all that useful, outside of being a nice bonus when using a traded Mon. But, that is also because I prefer to keep my in-game team roughly around the same level. If one member of the team is severely over-leveled compared to the rest, ofc it will be able to muscle its way through matchups it couldn't otherwise win.
While I do agree that Onix is able to beat Whitney's Miltank more reliably than Geodude, I think that Rocky's performance for the first 3 gyms is being over-valued. Yes, it does very well for itself, but its mid to end-game performance is shakier. Even after evolving, it nearly always needed to land at least one Screech to 2HKO even route trainer Mons. And while Curse is a definite improvement, it always needed more than one to deal damage during the end-game.
I don't consider Steelix to be dead-weight either. If it could do well in a major fight, it absolutely would be able to hold its own. It can wall quite a few Mons in several major battles from the early-game to even during the end-game. I just don't think it's nearly as good as other people seem to, but their experience using Steelix seems very different than my own.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Wide Lens, and I don't think that it's completely necessary to have it on Geodude. While it's nice to improve the accuracy of Rollout, it isn't a necessity for Geodude to be considered A instead of S. I consider Golem's other issues to be more detrimental such as its reliance on Rock Polish/Defense Curl to efficiently sweep. Although I have not tested Geodude with Wide Lens, I don't think that alone fixes those other problems.
On that note, Rocky also needs to boost in order to sweep, but it also needs to be able to outlast the foe's attacks without relying on healing items from the player. This is where its base stats, particularly its Attack and Speed, affect its ability to perform efficiently. Thus, I found that a lot of battles, both major and route ones, can become a slog to get through when using Rocky. Iron Tail is very unreliable as a primary STAB option if the foe resists or is immune to Dig. And even when I could use Dig, if it wasn't SE, I usually needed to Screech even against foes that I was several levels higher than.
Nevertheless, if it is A-tier, I think there are a lot of strong points in favor of Steelix's placement there. I just don't think it is from my experience using it.
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You misunderstand. Overleveling with traded mons is a natural consequence for having bonus EXP, not a deliberate thing. For example, in order to get to Lv 30, a Lv 7 Magikarp would have to acquire 33,322 EXP. A traded Onix would be around Lv 37 if it took in the same exact EXP that the Magikarp did.
Screech is something I almost never needed in my run. I found myself 2HKOing with Dig often on the field (now, I cannot really recall with 100% accuracy nor I kept track of that, so I stand to be corrected). Even then, if you use Screech, you might as well use something else twice and have the same effect (bar one additional PP wasted)
Anyways, I'd be happy if other people that nommed it to A stepped in and gave their stance as well, could help clear out the disagreements here.
I am not sure whenever this was influenced by you setting up Curse 6 times on Koga, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I think having to set up two Curses for around three end-game fights isn't the end of the world. Ceal's logs show that setting up two is more than enough for some fights (he did have to set up three of them against Bruno, but tbh, who is using Steelix against Bruno anyways)
I don't seem to get this point? I don't think anyone is going to set up on Will's Slowbro or something with a super effective move, they would do it on something like Ariados that has nothing to hit Steelix with
Anyways, I'd be happy if other people that nommed it to A stepped in and gave their stance as well, could help clear out the disagreements here.
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Yes, that is true. Tbh it was likely just general fatigue with the game that led me to spamming setup moves. I was running on auto by then, so I tried to brute force my way through the rest of the game. This may be why I downplayed Rocky's overall performance and considered Nidoking's and Raticate's better.
The only reason I did it on Slowbro is to ensure that Steelix's Speed was lower than that of Bro's, so that way Payback would still deal double damage. Regardless, I've removed that point as it didn't add anything to my argument.
After reviewing my logs, I think that Rocky's issues are roughly the same ones that Geodude (Trade) has. A is fine by me.
I'll jump in on the conversation since I used Lix very recently and my experience with it is partly why it's being placed in A
) but there are some differences in perspective, I guess. One of the biggest differences in opinion is Will, I think considering this mu to be below average is criminal considering the fact that Rocky can very well sweep Will with only the risk of some unlikely rng like sp.def drops from Psychic. It's not exactly a great mu since he still can lose but it's a strong performance in my eyes nonetheless, being able to muscle past Slowbro as a ground type is no joke. There's also the Victory Road rival battle, which there was a major difference in that I could actually beat his starter whereas you automatically lost, but even with that in mind there's no way in hell it's only a decent mu. At worst Lix beats 5/6 of his mons. From my experience Lix only outright loses 3 mus: Clair, Karen, and Lance. Any other fight it always at least had odds to sweep or could just crush the opponent outright.
The only other thing I can really think could've made the difference in performances was item usage. I had Shell Bell on Rocky from the moment I received the item, since A. there's not a lot better than it for Steelix anyways, and B. the recovery grants a huge boost to his effective bulk and makes mus where Lix has to take some strong/repeated hits (like Chuck or Will) more secure overall. Maybe that should be a recommended strategy for Steelix? But I never tested it without SB so I can't say how much of a difference it actually made and there's other options that are viable on Lix, such as Wide Lens and Soft Sand.
Overall, like I said, I think the disagreement here stems from a difference in perspective on what makes a good fight for Lix or not. That's a valid disagreement to have, but idk if there's a remedy to it, I guess. From the way you formatted your logs it would seem to imply you only tested some fights once, and that some of your judgments were based on battles that had some bad rng in it, so maybe if you gave Lix a few more tests you'd see things more like me or Ryota? That sounds kinda elitist, I think, but I don't really have much else of an ending for this lol. Just wanted to give my side of the Lix situation compared to yours. (Also I finished this post just as I saw yours conceding to Lix being A so sorry if this is unnecessary at this point)
Traded exp is very good obviously but if you play as Blufyr described (spreading your levels evenly amongst your team) it shouldn't really be game-breaking per se. A super nice bonus, especially in a game like HGSS where you're fighting significantly underleveled opponents, but it doesn't make it unfair to compare and contrast Rocky with other mons or something.
This doesn't really jive with my experience at all. Discrepancies like this theoretically shouldn't happen, given Rocky has set IVs and nature, but in any case, I found my Lix to be just fine in the second half of the game and especially against route trainers. For route trainers, it's definitely more annoying as an Onix, but as Lix, you should be more than fine using Dig and eventually Iron Tail to beat mooks. I can't really imagine what trainers you were using Lix vs that he couldn't 2hko them, aside from ones with obvious advantages I guess? But why would you do that anyways. As for the major battles, after looking through your logs, I'd say our experiences are mostly similar (it did make me happy to see somebody replicated my Will stategy
) but there are some differences in perspective, I guess. One of the biggest differences in opinion is Will, I think considering this mu to be below average is criminal considering the fact that Rocky can very well sweep Will with only the risk of some unlikely rng like sp.def drops from Psychic. It's not exactly a great mu since he still can lose but it's a strong performance in my eyes nonetheless, being able to muscle past Slowbro as a ground type is no joke. There's also the Victory Road rival battle, which there was a major difference in that I could actually beat his starter whereas you automatically lost, but even with that in mind there's no way in hell it's only a decent mu. At worst Lix beats 5/6 of his mons. From my experience Lix only outright loses 3 mus: Clair, Karen, and Lance. Any other fight it always at least had odds to sweep or could just crush the opponent outright.The only other thing I can really think could've made the difference in performances was item usage. I had Shell Bell on Rocky from the moment I received the item, since A. there's not a lot better than it for Steelix anyways, and B. the recovery grants a huge boost to his effective bulk and makes mus where Lix has to take some strong/repeated hits (like Chuck or Will) more secure overall. Maybe that should be a recommended strategy for Steelix? But I never tested it without SB so I can't say how much of a difference it actually made and there's other options that are viable on Lix, such as Wide Lens and Soft Sand.
Overall, like I said, I think the disagreement here stems from a difference in perspective on what makes a good fight for Lix or not. That's a valid disagreement to have, but idk if there's a remedy to it, I guess. From the way you formatted your logs it would seem to imply you only tested some fights once, and that some of your judgments were based on battles that had some bad rng in it, so maybe if you gave Lix a few more tests you'd see things more like me or Ryota? That sounds kinda elitist, I think, but I don't really have much else of an ending for this lol. Just wanted to give my side of the Lix situation compared to yours. (Also I finished this post just as I saw yours conceding to Lix being A so sorry if this is unnecessary at this point
)
as an off-topic, I decided to use the level 50 Magikarp yet again (same IVs as last time), however, I decided to have more fun and use it to solo the game. My solo aimed to beat the game with the Gyarados by fighting only the obligatory trainers. I did that and accidentally made some optional kills (a Seel, a Rattata from TR, and two Ace Trainers from Clair's Gym as I forgot they were spinners and thus could be skipped).
Assuming you give the Magikarp a Rare Candy immediately, Gyarados will be around level 56 by the time you beat Archer. After you reach the Pokemon League, it will be around 59 and later around 61 when you reach Lance.
This, however, does not factor the following:
- Lighthouse (you could sidetrack it for Gyarados to clean it later and earn an extra level or two)
- I didn't give it more than one Rare Candy, only for the purpose of evolution. I could see one giving all their Candies to it when you reach Clair so your Gyarados can be around level 62 or so, depending on how many Rare Candies you collected before that
this method of usage for Gyara is by far the best way to use it. It's one of the most efficient ways to beat the game, as you can just skip all optional trainers and do the obligatory ones only and this method of usage gives it a better performance than with just stuffing Vitamins, and because it makes it easier to set up and achieve KOs with less DD boosts.
The only issue, again, is that you need to invest in your free Heart Scale for DD (and even then, it's a worthy investment) and that you have to find the level 50 Magikarp, but finding it isn't that hard (just repel trick with a level 26 mon, you should have encountered one within minutes), though getting one with good IVs might be a hassle. However, on the other hand, if your IVs are not downright awful (like 0s in everything), you could just give it all Candies you have and it can compensate for that.
I know this post won't contribute much, but figured I'd share my experience with this monster. Seriously, who the hell put that thing so early and made it easily accessible?
Assuming you give the Magikarp a Rare Candy immediately, Gyarados will be around level 56 by the time you beat Archer. After you reach the Pokemon League, it will be around 59 and later around 61 when you reach Lance.
This, however, does not factor the following:
- Lighthouse (you could sidetrack it for Gyarados to clean it later and earn an extra level or two)
- I didn't give it more than one Rare Candy, only for the purpose of evolution. I could see one giving all their Candies to it when you reach Clair so your Gyarados can be around level 62 or so, depending on how many Rare Candies you collected before that
this method of usage for Gyara is by far the best way to use it. It's one of the most efficient ways to beat the game, as you can just skip all optional trainers and do the obligatory ones only and this method of usage gives it a better performance than with just stuffing Vitamins, and because it makes it easier to set up and achieve KOs with less DD boosts.
The only issue, again, is that you need to invest in your free Heart Scale for DD (and even then, it's a worthy investment) and that you have to find the level 50 Magikarp, but finding it isn't that hard (just repel trick with a level 26 mon, you should have encountered one within minutes), though getting one with good IVs might be a hassle. However, on the other hand, if your IVs are not downright awful (like 0s in everything), you could just give it all Candies you have and it can compensate for that.
I know this post won't contribute much, but figured I'd share my experience with this monster. Seriously, who the hell put that thing so early and made it easily accessible?
Another attempt or two definitely might have changed my perspective on that battle, as well as taking a break from the game.
I'd say it's a good to great matchup depending on your starter choice then. I've never really struggled with Silver since I've only used Mons that beat most of his team pretty handily tbh.
I actually did the same with Rocky and I agree that there aren't many other options available for usable hold items. The Shell Bell def improved Lix's longevity/bulk overall. The only other hold item that might be useful besides the Wide Lens/Soft Sand is the Muscle Band. However, IIRC the PC's mother doesn't buy it for them until much later on in the game.
A few more tests would have helped for sure.
Nah, you're good. It definitely gave me some food for thought on my future tests/logs
Time for some more placements. This round will consist of the remaining Safari Mons and some things being moved out of A. Once again these are up for debate for 2 weeks. Make you arguments during this time. If nothing is said once the deadline hits, they are placed and no discussion will be held on them.
Cubone - E
Smeargle - F
Larvitar - E
Doduo (This counts the traded Dodrio in Blackthorn) - E
Kanghaskan - D
(This should be it for the Safari Mons.)
Nidoran M and Nidoran F: A -> B
Magmar - B
Chinchou - B
Shellder - D
Magikarp - S (Combining the Repel Trick and Red together. Both will be mentioned)
Growlithe - C
Bellsprout - D (I share the sentiments that were made with this nom. When I used it way back when, it failed to impress me and it was an incredible rough time.)
Vaporeon - B
Flareon - B
Jolteon - C
Espeon - C
Umbreon - E
Dewgong - D
Poliwrath - C
Politoed - C
Oddish (Plume) - C
Oddish (Bell) - D
Slugma - E
Smeargle - F
Larvitar - E
Doduo (This counts the traded Dodrio in Blackthorn) - E
Kanghaskan - D
(This should be it for the Safari Mons.)
Nidoran M and Nidoran F: A -> B
Magmar - B
Chinchou - B
Shellder - D
Magikarp - S (Combining the Repel Trick and Red together. Both will be mentioned)
Growlithe - C
Bellsprout - D (I share the sentiments that were made with this nom. When I used it way back when, it failed to impress me and it was an incredible rough time.)
Vaporeon - B
Flareon - B
Jolteon - C
Espeon - C
Umbreon - E
Dewgong - D
Poliwrath - C
Politoed - C
Oddish (Plume) - C
Oddish (Bell) - D
Slugma - E
what's the reasoning behind vileplume > victreebel? just asking, since it's wild to me given that it's usually the other way around in other games
First off, Johto is unkind to Grass types in general in the major match ups. This is amplified by being Poison so your STABs become either resisted or just don't affect the mu at all. Moving onto why Plume is better in this game. Victrebel requires setup to accomplish tasks via Growth. Vileplume really doesn't have this issue. Early on, your STAB is Vine Whip and Acid (which is gotten at 23 regardless if you are Sprout or Weepin). Your real STAB is Sludge Bomb which is about halfway through the game and to get it as early as possibly you need to do the Hideout, which happens to resist you. Even then, you are stuck with that Vine Whip until level 39 unless you wish to SunnyBeam leading to more set up and blocking you off from Specs Bomb (though this is of course mu dependent).
While Oddish is more or less similar to Sprout in terms of movepool difficulties, it gets an upgrade at 21 right at evolution, has bulk to take some turns to set up (in this case you Sleep Powder, Sprout can do similar of course but with a bit more difficulty due to defenses), and it has a bit more Sp. A making it able to muscle through things with Specs Bomb or SunnyBeam (Could do Specs Drain if you wanna keep Specs Boost). From just tests aside, Sprout has to buff itself, Oddish does not or more like it cannot.
TL;DR, Oddish line has more Bulk meaning they can dish out more.
why are you guys ignoring kanto for this tier list but not the gsc one?
Does no one read the first page? Here is the decision.
ah, fair.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Reviving this thread with my latest run.
Did a run just to get a bit more data on Gengar, Machamp, and Alakazam. I also used SD Feraligatr but honestly I would say even using it (which I know does not count) it would still be A Tier. Outside of Lance, I felt SD never was that big of a game changer. I will post the logs for Gengar since tbh it was the mon that I think the logs show the most merit towards. We all know Alakazam is amazing and that Machamp has an awful league MU. I will edit the rest of my log in later today. Keep in mind these are not the most detailed since I did not take them down at the time and am going by memory. Will likely do a run with Gengar to confirm once I get a decent emulator running on my laptop.
Honestly I am torn. Gastly's early game is not that bad honestly. You can easily beat Falkner and Bugsy with it, though Rival 2, Whitney, and Morty are a pain. That being said, so long as you do not need shadow ball on anything else, Gengar at level 25 becomes one of the single best mons in the game, doing a ton of work in every fight and destroying things with Specs hits. Outside of your Rival, Clair and Lance, Gengar overall has very strong matchups across the field. Even in its worst MUs, it does not do that bad. I am torn between A and S for this one, since honestly it could go either way and thats with me kneecapping myself in Hideout so that I could give Shadow Ball to Alakazam. If I had a gun to my head, I would lean S Tier slightly but A Tier is something I completely understand.
Machamp and Zam are a pretty known story and I think we can talk about them quickly. Machamp has some solid matchups in the mid game, levels up fast due to trade exp, and hits hard enough where it can do work in its more mediocre matchups like Clair. That being said, holy god is it's league matchup a mixed bag. It is dead weight in Will and Koga, does ok vs Bruno, and only does ok vs Karen. Lance sucks but lets be real 90% of the pokemon you can use suck in that fight. A Tier. Zam is busted as hell and I do not think I need to explain it too much. S Tier.
When I get my emulator running, I will do another test with Gengar to confirm whether it truly is S Tier. I also said I would use Scizor the next test I do I believe. Looking at the tier list, I likely will use Chinchou as well. Last mon tbd, likely Swinub since I want to give that thing another test.
In terms of some misc noms that I think should be up there.
Girafarig ->B/A
I've tested this in the past, and I think we had one or two other tests and honestly, it surprised me. Return, Psychic Move, Shadow Ball, and Thunder worked wonders. I'd go on record saying that it is probably the best Psychic type in Johto outside of Zam and maybe Lugia. Great mon. I think the few tests we have had of it considered it in the B/A area or on the borderline. I know Ryota Mitarai tested it and if I remember right they said it was good as well.
Raikou ->C
Entei-> D
Lumping these two together for obvious reasons. Both are super strong at least BST wise, but come super late, require the Master Ball, and have meh league matchups at least on theorymon. I would say Raikou seems stronger just on the virtue of Shadow Ball and its typing being a bit better in the league, but IDK. I think we had a few tests on these (at least one or two), but idr.
Did a run just to get a bit more data on Gengar, Machamp, and Alakazam. I also used SD Feraligatr but honestly I would say even using it (which I know does not count) it would still be A Tier. Outside of Lance, I felt SD never was that big of a game changer. I will post the logs for Gengar since tbh it was the mon that I think the logs show the most merit towards. We all know Alakazam is amazing and that Machamp has an awful league MU. I will edit the rest of my log in later today. Keep in mind these are not the most detailed since I did not take them down at the time and am going by memory. Will likely do a run with Gengar to confirm once I get a decent emulator running on my laptop.
Falkner: Gastly was Level 12 at the time. Curse is needed to even touch the Pidgey. Curse is slow but you can just use a potion since Pidgey can't touch you. Now, idr the exact evs that Gastly had, but Gust is a 3hko.
Lvl 14 0 SpA Pidgeotto Gust vs. Lvl 12 0 HP / 0 SpD Gastly: 12-15 (41.3 - 51.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I gave gastly 0 ivs in HP and SpD for this calc. Either way, decent matchup
Bugsy: Gastly as Level 16 at the time. The cocoons are a joke and can't even touch you. Scyther is interesting though since it has to rely on U-Turn to damage you. U Turn is a 4hko without a crit, while Night Shade is a 5hko through Sitrus Berry. You need a potion to win and/or use curse. Decent matchup
Rival Azaelia:Gastly was level 17: Started with Totodile this run, but I can say pretty safely that it does ok in Cyndaquil and bad in Totodile for obvious reasons. Gastly is a decent MU, you are faster and outdamage him. Zubat is annoying with Bite. Decent MU for non starters. You blank Bayleef but it is long due to Curse vs Sythesis shenanigans. Decent MU outside of Zubat. If he has Totodile bad MU. Note you are unlikely to solo.
Whitney: Gastly was Level 19 at the time. Clefairy is easy to beat with curse stalling it. Cursing Miltank lets your other team mates do better work on it since Gastly is not going to last long against Stomp. Bad MU for soloing, but the curse can help other mons deal with Miltank better.
Rival BT: Gastly was level 22. Honestly very similar to Azaelia. Starter matchup varies from great to bad. Zubat is annoying, Gastly is a good MU. Magnemite on paper is OK since Night shade and Curse let you beat it, but from my three attempts thunder wave and supersonic make it a bad MU.
Morty: Gastly was level 23 at the time. You beat Gastly, but even the Haunter's can be reasonably annoying. Outside of them cursing me, I found Gastly struggled here. Bad MU.
Petrel: Gastly was level 28 (I was keeping it unevolved due to the opportunity cost for shadow ball. If you are using something else that does not want Shadow ball, this is a much easier matchup since you would have a shadow ball gengar at this point and focus blast.) Bad MU. You do not deal enough damage to avoid the dark moves everything on his team has and can't touch Raticate outside of curse. Granted, if you have Specs Gengar at this point, Shadow Ball does well on all but Raticate and Focus Blast does well so long as he does not sucker punch if you switch back in.
Chuck: Gengar was level 31. Specs Shadow Ball 2hko's Primeape while Rock Slide is a 3hko. Surf is a 3HKO while Thunder is a OHKO. and Shadow Ball is a 2hko through Sitrus Berry. Good MU.
Jasmine. Gengar was level 32. Specs Focus Blast OHKOs the Magnemites and OHKOs Steelix. Good MU since Steelix only 2hkos with Iron Tail.
Pryce: Gengar 33 Good MU, though you need to switch. Thunder fries Seel and Dewgong. FB destroys Piloswine.
Petral:Gengar 34 Specs Shadow Ball sweeps and he can't really do much, good MU
Rival Goldenrod: Gengar 35. OHKO Magnemite, Golbat, and Haunter without Specs. Sneasel outspeeds and OHKOs with Faint attack. Starter is less of a mixed bag now, Decent MU.
Arianna: Gengar 36 On paper her team looks scary, but it is not really. Arbok you outspeed and 2hko, but it 2hkos back so you need specs to OHKO it. Vileplume is easy you wall it. If you are using Specs you even OHKO Murkrow. Good MU.
Archer: Gengar 36. Focus blast beast the houndour and doom, koffing is a joke. Good MU.
Clair: Gengar 38 Thunder beats Gyarados, but you are not sweeping even with specs. Dragonairs are a 2hko with Sludge Bomb, but you do not beat Kingdra. Meh MU
Rival VR: Gengar 39. Best Rival MU since you don't even need specs. Wide Lens lets you reliably sweep. Great MU.
Will: Gengar 39/40 Specs Shadow Ball Sweeps, Great MU. Need Specs for clean OHKOs though.
Koga: Gengar 40 Specs Shadow Ball does work Ariados, Crobat, Muk, and Venomoth and 2hkos at worst. Do
Bruno: Gengar 41 Bruno sux. Specs Shadow Ball 2hkos everyone. Good MU but you need to heal.
Karen: Gengar Lvl 42. Houndoom is a OHKO. Umbreon is a 2hko...if it does not hax you. You need specs for those rolls, which means a lot of switching since you can't solo. Meh mu
Lance: lol no. You beat Gyarados, but you do not do great against any of the dragonites. Charizard and Aero are ok but he usually went hard Dragonite after Gyara. Bad MU
Lvl 14 0 SpA Pidgeotto Gust vs. Lvl 12 0 HP / 0 SpD Gastly: 12-15 (41.3 - 51.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I gave gastly 0 ivs in HP and SpD for this calc. Either way, decent matchup
Bugsy: Gastly as Level 16 at the time. The cocoons are a joke and can't even touch you. Scyther is interesting though since it has to rely on U-Turn to damage you. U Turn is a 4hko without a crit, while Night Shade is a 5hko through Sitrus Berry. You need a potion to win and/or use curse. Decent matchup
Rival Azaelia:Gastly was level 17: Started with Totodile this run, but I can say pretty safely that it does ok in Cyndaquil and bad in Totodile for obvious reasons. Gastly is a decent MU, you are faster and outdamage him. Zubat is annoying with Bite. Decent MU for non starters. You blank Bayleef but it is long due to Curse vs Sythesis shenanigans. Decent MU outside of Zubat. If he has Totodile bad MU. Note you are unlikely to solo.
Whitney: Gastly was Level 19 at the time. Clefairy is easy to beat with curse stalling it. Cursing Miltank lets your other team mates do better work on it since Gastly is not going to last long against Stomp. Bad MU for soloing, but the curse can help other mons deal with Miltank better.
Rival BT: Gastly was level 22. Honestly very similar to Azaelia. Starter matchup varies from great to bad. Zubat is annoying, Gastly is a good MU. Magnemite on paper is OK since Night shade and Curse let you beat it, but from my three attempts thunder wave and supersonic make it a bad MU.
Morty: Gastly was level 23 at the time. You beat Gastly, but even the Haunter's can be reasonably annoying. Outside of them cursing me, I found Gastly struggled here. Bad MU.
Petrel: Gastly was level 28 (I was keeping it unevolved due to the opportunity cost for shadow ball. If you are using something else that does not want Shadow ball, this is a much easier matchup since you would have a shadow ball gengar at this point and focus blast.) Bad MU. You do not deal enough damage to avoid the dark moves everything on his team has and can't touch Raticate outside of curse. Granted, if you have Specs Gengar at this point, Shadow Ball does well on all but Raticate and Focus Blast does well so long as he does not sucker punch if you switch back in.
Chuck: Gengar was level 31. Specs Shadow Ball 2hko's Primeape while Rock Slide is a 3hko. Surf is a 3HKO while Thunder is a OHKO. and Shadow Ball is a 2hko through Sitrus Berry. Good MU.
Jasmine. Gengar was level 32. Specs Focus Blast OHKOs the Magnemites and OHKOs Steelix. Good MU since Steelix only 2hkos with Iron Tail.
Pryce: Gengar 33 Good MU, though you need to switch. Thunder fries Seel and Dewgong. FB destroys Piloswine.
Petral:Gengar 34 Specs Shadow Ball sweeps and he can't really do much, good MU
Rival Goldenrod: Gengar 35. OHKO Magnemite, Golbat, and Haunter without Specs. Sneasel outspeeds and OHKOs with Faint attack. Starter is less of a mixed bag now, Decent MU.
Arianna: Gengar 36 On paper her team looks scary, but it is not really. Arbok you outspeed and 2hko, but it 2hkos back so you need specs to OHKO it. Vileplume is easy you wall it. If you are using Specs you even OHKO Murkrow. Good MU.
Archer: Gengar 36. Focus blast beast the houndour and doom, koffing is a joke. Good MU.
Clair: Gengar 38 Thunder beats Gyarados, but you are not sweeping even with specs. Dragonairs are a 2hko with Sludge Bomb, but you do not beat Kingdra. Meh MU
Rival VR: Gengar 39. Best Rival MU since you don't even need specs. Wide Lens lets you reliably sweep. Great MU.
Will: Gengar 39/40 Specs Shadow Ball Sweeps, Great MU. Need Specs for clean OHKOs though.
Koga: Gengar 40 Specs Shadow Ball does work Ariados, Crobat, Muk, and Venomoth and 2hkos at worst. Do
Bruno: Gengar 41 Bruno sux. Specs Shadow Ball 2hkos everyone. Good MU but you need to heal.
Karen: Gengar Lvl 42. Houndoom is a OHKO. Umbreon is a 2hko...if it does not hax you. You need specs for those rolls, which means a lot of switching since you can't solo. Meh mu
Lance: lol no. You beat Gyarados, but you do not do great against any of the dragonites. Charizard and Aero are ok but he usually went hard Dragonite after Gyara. Bad MU
Honestly I am torn. Gastly's early game is not that bad honestly. You can easily beat Falkner and Bugsy with it, though Rival 2, Whitney, and Morty are a pain. That being said, so long as you do not need shadow ball on anything else, Gengar at level 25 becomes one of the single best mons in the game, doing a ton of work in every fight and destroying things with Specs hits. Outside of your Rival, Clair and Lance, Gengar overall has very strong matchups across the field. Even in its worst MUs, it does not do that bad. I am torn between A and S for this one, since honestly it could go either way and thats with me kneecapping myself in Hideout so that I could give Shadow Ball to Alakazam. If I had a gun to my head, I would lean S Tier slightly but A Tier is something I completely understand.
Machamp and Zam are a pretty known story and I think we can talk about them quickly. Machamp has some solid matchups in the mid game, levels up fast due to trade exp, and hits hard enough where it can do work in its more mediocre matchups like Clair. That being said, holy god is it's league matchup a mixed bag. It is dead weight in Will and Koga, does ok vs Bruno, and only does ok vs Karen. Lance sucks but lets be real 90% of the pokemon you can use suck in that fight. A Tier. Zam is busted as hell and I do not think I need to explain it too much. S Tier.
When I get my emulator running, I will do another test with Gengar to confirm whether it truly is S Tier. I also said I would use Scizor the next test I do I believe. Looking at the tier list, I likely will use Chinchou as well. Last mon tbd, likely Swinub since I want to give that thing another test.
In terms of some misc noms that I think should be up there.
Girafarig ->B/A
I've tested this in the past, and I think we had one or two other tests and honestly, it surprised me. Return, Psychic Move, Shadow Ball, and Thunder worked wonders. I'd go on record saying that it is probably the best Psychic type in Johto outside of Zam and maybe Lugia. Great mon. I think the few tests we have had of it considered it in the B/A area or on the borderline. I know Ryota Mitarai tested it and if I remember right they said it was good as well.
Raikou ->C
Entei-> D
Lumping these two together for obvious reasons. Both are super strong at least BST wise, but come super late, require the Master Ball, and have meh league matchups at least on theorymon. I would say Raikou seems stronger just on the virtue of Shadow Ball and its typing being a bit better in the league, but IDK. I think we had a few tests on these (at least one or two), but idr.
We had at least 1-2 tests on the Dogs iirc. Entei was at C and Raikou at B.
Thank god he never did that again, that would be embarrassingWhen you accidentally post mid-formatting
Anyways, new run I've been chipping away at for a while, featuring Gengar, Scyther, Ninetales and Girafarig
Gastly (13): Since you only have Lick at this point, you obviously can’t damage Falkner’s part-Normal pokemon. However, you do have support moves at your disposal, namely Curse. Losing half your health is inherently risky, but Pidgey physically cannot touch you, and you live a Pidgeotto’s Gust after Curse, so you can Curse that and still be able to switch out for the experience. Bad mu, but not exactly useless.
Gastly (16): Night Shade 2hkos Zubat, 3hkos Koffing, neither can really touch you. Great mu.
Gastly (17): Night Shade 5hkos Scyther after berry, 3hkos the cocoons. Scyther tends to Leer < Focus Energy < U-Turn, which gives you the opportunity to Hypnosis into Curse. You can potentially kill Scyther with this, but more likely you’ll just make some damage stick / burn the potion. Cocoons pose no threat. Decent mu
Gastly (17): Night Shade 2hkos Gastly, 3hkos Bat, 4hkos Bayleef. Bayleef likes to spam Reflect and Synthesis and wouldn’t do much with Razor Leaf anyways so you can use the SleepCurse strat safely against that. Gastly isn’t very threatening besides Curse. Bat can Supersonic and 2hko with Bite. Decent, imagine it would be bad vs any other starter tho.
Gastly (19): Once again, you are incapable of dealing direct damage to the opponent. While you might expect to wall Whitney’s mons due to your normal immunity, Clefairy can pull any move out of its ass with Metronome, and Miltank just straight up has Scrappy, so you don’t exactly wall anything here. That being said, you can easily SleepCurse Clefairy, which will surely burn a potion, and at full you live a Stomp from Miltank, so if you don’t get flinched, you can get off a suicide Curse, although you will gain no experience from beating Miltank due to reasons of death. Bad mu.
Scyther (18): 2hko Clefairy, outspeed and 3hko Miltank with Technician Rock Smash. Miltank guarantees Rollout which will kill you in 2 hits, however if it misses you will obviously beat it. Clefairy is easy to burn a potion off of but can be somewhat annoying with Cute Charm / random Metronome pulls. In combination with Curse I was able to 2hko Miltank, so it can definitely clean up shop, but usually fails to take it on on its own. Decent, maybe good?
Scyther (18): 2hko Clefairy, outspeed and 3hko Miltank with Technician Rock Smash. Miltank guarantees Rollout which will kill you in 2 hits, however if it misses you will obviously beat it. Clefairy is easy to burn a potion off of but can be somewhat annoying with Cute Charm / random Metronome pulls. In combination with Curse I was able to 2hko Miltank, so it can definitely clean up shop, but usually fails to take it on on its own. Decent, maybe good?
Gastly is 22, Scyther 21, rest 19
Gastly: Night Shade 2hkos Gastly and Magnemite, 3hkos Bat, 4hkos Leef. Same things apply as before, although Gastly’s newfound access to Confuse Ray makes things potentially more annoying with him. Magnemite will paralyze and probably confuse you but the 2hko is a decent trade, I guess. Poor mu.
Scyther: Sharp Beak, Technician-boosted (last time I say that part) Wing Attack ohkos Gastly, Bat, and Leef. Mag is ohkod by Rock Smash. Flawless mu.
Vulpix: Fire Blast ohkos everything except Bayleef, who is 2hkod. Biggest issue is missing, really; you outspeed everything but if you miss they can potentially confuse / Curse / paralyze you, but these aren’t exactly death knells. Great mu.
Girafarig: TwistedSpoon Psybeam ohkos the poisons, 2hkos Mag, 4hkos Bayleef. Leef can legitimately stall you out with PoisonPowder and Synthesis. Mag will parafuse you but you can eat a hit or two otherwise. Good/decent mu.
Gastly: Night Shade 2hkos Gastly and Magnemite, 3hkos Bat, 4hkos Leef. Same things apply as before, although Gastly’s newfound access to Confuse Ray makes things potentially more annoying with him. Magnemite will paralyze and probably confuse you but the 2hko is a decent trade, I guess. Poor mu.
Scyther: Sharp Beak, Technician-boosted (last time I say that part) Wing Attack ohkos Gastly, Bat, and Leef. Mag is ohkod by Rock Smash. Flawless mu.
Vulpix: Fire Blast ohkos everything except Bayleef, who is 2hkod. Biggest issue is missing, really; you outspeed everything but if you miss they can potentially confuse / Curse / paralyze you, but these aren’t exactly death knells. Great mu.
Girafarig: TwistedSpoon Psybeam ohkos the poisons, 2hkos Mag, 4hkos Bayleef. Leef can legitimately stall you out with PoisonPowder and Synthesis. Mag will parafuse you but you can eat a hit or two otherwise. Good/decent mu.
Gengar (25): Outspeed everything, Shadow Punch ohkos Gastly and the Haunters, 3hkos Gar after berry. Opposing Gengar ohkos back with Shadow Ball. Good mu.
Scyther (23): Same deal as Gengar, 2hko Gar and ohko the rest. You’re outsped but don’t get ohko’d by Gar so you can finish off a weakened one, I guess. Good mu.
Ninetales (24): Same as above, Gar’s SBall is a roll to 2hko on you and it’s not guaranteed to always click it so a better mu than the above. Good, maybe great mu.
Girafarig (22): Same damage rolls as before. Your immunity to Shadow Ball makes you basically invulnerable to Gengar, you even have Early Bird as the icing on the cake. Haunter 2 outspeeds weirdly but it comes last and Curses anyways. Great mu.
Scyther (23): Same deal as Gengar, 2hko Gar and ohko the rest. You’re outsped but don’t get ohko’d by Gar so you can finish off a weakened one, I guess. Good mu.
Ninetales (24): Same as above, Gar’s SBall is a roll to 2hko on you and it’s not guaranteed to always click it so a better mu than the above. Good, maybe great mu.
Girafarig (22): Same damage rolls as before. Your immunity to Shadow Ball makes you basically invulnerable to Gengar, you even have Early Bird as the icing on the cake. Haunter 2 outspeeds weirdly but it comes last and Curses anyways. Great mu.
Ninetales is 24, rest 25
Gengar: Shadow Ball ohkos the poisons, Focus Blast ohkos Raticate. No specs required so no need for switching around. Worst case scenario is that you get super unlucky with Focus Blast, but I missed two in a row and it just Scary Face’d into Crunch, the latter of which you live. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Zubat and Raticate, leaves Koffing on red. Smokescreen is somewhat annoying, but you have the bulk to eat a few hits if necessary and Rat just Scary Faces turn 1 anyways. Great mu.
Ninetales: Ohko the poisons, 2hko Raticate with Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Even though you don’t ohko Rat you are 4hkod by Hyper Fang / Sucker Punch so you don’t really care lol. Great mu.
Girafarig: Ohko the poisons, 2hko Rat with Psybeam. Rat speed ties with you and Crunch is a roll to 2hko so it’s a bit shaky but overall you should still win more often than you lose. Good mu.
Gengar: Shadow Ball ohkos the poisons, Focus Blast ohkos Raticate. No specs required so no need for switching around. Worst case scenario is that you get super unlucky with Focus Blast, but I missed two in a row and it just Scary Face’d into Crunch, the latter of which you live. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Zubat and Raticate, leaves Koffing on red. Smokescreen is somewhat annoying, but you have the bulk to eat a few hits if necessary and Rat just Scary Faces turn 1 anyways. Great mu.
Ninetales: Ohko the poisons, 2hko Raticate with Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Even though you don’t ohko Rat you are 4hkod by Hyper Fang / Sucker Punch so you don’t really care lol. Great mu.
Girafarig: Ohko the poisons, 2hko Rat with Psybeam. Rat speed ties with you and Crunch is a roll to 2hko so it’s a bit shaky but overall you should still win more often than you lose. Good mu.
Tales 29, rest 28
Gengar: Specs Sludge Bomb ohkos Ape, 2hkos Wrath (3hko through berry). Wrath 3hkos back with Surf so even with two Hyper Potions you win out in the end. Alternatively you can switch and lock into Thunder which ohkos. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Ape, 2hkos Wrath (3hko through berry). Wrath 3hkos back with Surf. Great mu.
Ninetales: Outspeed Ape, Fire Blast is a roll to ohko. FIre Blast is 4-5hko against Wrath, so you’re pretty helpless against it, however Wisping is helpful utility. Decent mu.
Girafarig: Ape outspeeds you and spams Double Team. Specs is required to ohko Ape with Psybeam. Wrath is a roll to 2hko through berry. Good mu.
Gengar: Specs Sludge Bomb ohkos Ape, 2hkos Wrath (3hko through berry). Wrath 3hkos back with Surf so even with two Hyper Potions you win out in the end. Alternatively you can switch and lock into Thunder which ohkos. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Ape, 2hkos Wrath (3hko through berry). Wrath 3hkos back with Surf. Great mu.
Ninetales: Outspeed Ape, Fire Blast is a roll to ohko. FIre Blast is 4-5hko against Wrath, so you’re pretty helpless against it, however Wisping is helpful utility. Decent mu.
Girafarig: Ape outspeeds you and spams Double Team. Specs is required to ohko Ape with Psybeam. Wrath is a roll to 2hko through berry. Good mu.
All 29
Gengar: Specs Focus Blast ohkos everything. The hangup in this mu is Focus Blast’s accuracy; if you miss, you’re subject to some hurt. For example, if you miss against a Mag, they will Twave then Tbolt, the latter doing over half to you. Didn’t miss against Lix but I can assume Iron Tail would finish the job or otherwise do a lot if you’re at full. Good mu overall, just be careful.
Scyther: Rock Smash fails to ohko even Magnemite and predictably bounces off Lix. In return, Magnemite ohkos with TBolt and Lix sends you to red with Rock Throw. Terrible mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos Mags while Fire Blast ohkos Lix. Flamethrower 2hkos the latter and even if it does go for Rock Throw you can stomach one. Great mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam 3hkos Mags, 5-6hkos Lix (not counting berry). Mags like to parafusion you and Lix does its Screech Sandstorm Iron Tail thing. Bad mu, you’re not as inherently vulnerable as say Scyther but you fail to kill anything with any sort of expediency.
Gengar: Specs Focus Blast ohkos everything. The hangup in this mu is Focus Blast’s accuracy; if you miss, you’re subject to some hurt. For example, if you miss against a Mag, they will Twave then Tbolt, the latter doing over half to you. Didn’t miss against Lix but I can assume Iron Tail would finish the job or otherwise do a lot if you’re at full. Good mu overall, just be careful.
Scyther: Rock Smash fails to ohko even Magnemite and predictably bounces off Lix. In return, Magnemite ohkos with TBolt and Lix sends you to red with Rock Throw. Terrible mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos Mags while Fire Blast ohkos Lix. Flamethrower 2hkos the latter and even if it does go for Rock Throw you can stomach one. Great mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam 3hkos Mags, 5-6hkos Lix (not counting berry). Mags like to parafusion you and Lix does its Screech Sandstorm Iron Tail thing. Bad mu, you’re not as inherently vulnerable as say Scyther but you fail to kill anything with any sort of expediency.
All 30
Gengar: Specs Thunder ohkos Seel. Sack to Dewgong to lock into Focus Blast, which ohkos both Gong and Piloswine. You can generally afford to miss about twice before it becomes an issue, but Piloswine also has about the same chance to miss with Blizzard so you’re overall safer here than you were at Jasmine. Good mu.
Scyther: Roll to ohko Seel with Wing Attack, 3hko the rest with Rock Smash. Dewgong 2hkos with Aurora Beam and Pilo ohkos with Blizzard. Poor mu.
Ninetales: Fire Blast about 5hkos Seel. Gong is 4hko and easily stalls you out with Rest. Pilo is ohkod by Fire Blast and you can take a Mud Bomb in return if you miss. Poor mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam 2hkos Seel, 3hkos Gong, 4hkos Pilo. In return Dewgong 3hkos with Aurora Beam and Pilo 2hkos with Blizzard. Poor mu.
Gengar: Specs Thunder ohkos Seel. Sack to Dewgong to lock into Focus Blast, which ohkos both Gong and Piloswine. You can generally afford to miss about twice before it becomes an issue, but Piloswine also has about the same chance to miss with Blizzard so you’re overall safer here than you were at Jasmine. Good mu.
Scyther: Roll to ohko Seel with Wing Attack, 3hko the rest with Rock Smash. Dewgong 2hkos with Aurora Beam and Pilo ohkos with Blizzard. Poor mu.
Ninetales: Fire Blast about 5hkos Seel. Gong is 4hko and easily stalls you out with Rest. Pilo is ohkod by Fire Blast and you can take a Mud Bomb in return if you miss. Poor mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam 2hkos Seel, 3hkos Gong, 4hkos Pilo. In return Dewgong 3hkos with Aurora Beam and Pilo 2hkos with Blizzard. Poor mu.
Tales 32, rest 31
Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball ohkos everything. Flawless mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack 2hkos Koffings, 3hkos Weezing. You get worn down pretty quickly by Smokescreens, Sludges, and in some cases Self-Destructs, limiting you to a few Koffings or a Koffing + Weezing. Poor mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos the Koffings. Weezing barely survives a Fire Blast, which is where the trouble comes in, as it can potentially explode and ohko you. However it will more often than not Smokescreen or Sludge first turn, so unless he does the former and you miss next turn you should be fine, as even a poisoned Ninetales sweeps. Good mu.
Girafarig: Same story as Ninetales, Psybeam ohkos the Koffings but barely misses Weezing. You can easily equip Specs here tho to make up the difference. Great mu.
Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball ohkos everything. Flawless mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack 2hkos Koffings, 3hkos Weezing. You get worn down pretty quickly by Smokescreens, Sludges, and in some cases Self-Destructs, limiting you to a few Koffings or a Koffing + Weezing. Poor mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos the Koffings. Weezing barely survives a Fire Blast, which is where the trouble comes in, as it can potentially explode and ohko you. However it will more often than not Smokescreen or Sludge first turn, so unless he does the former and you miss next turn you should be fine, as even a poisoned Ninetales sweeps. Good mu.
Girafarig: Same story as Ninetales, Psybeam ohkos the Koffings but barely misses Weezing. You can easily equip Specs here tho to make up the difference. Great mu.
Gar and Scy 31, rest 32
Gengar: Opted to not run specs here so as to facilitate the move switching Gar needs for this fight. Thunder ohkos Golbat, FB ohkos Mag and Sneasel, SBall ohkos Haunter, and SBomb 2hkos Meganium. You’ll have to avoid Sneasel as it outspeeds and Faint Attack is a roll to ohko you. You can afford to miss once or twice, as the biggest damage you’ll take is from Golbat’s Bite which does around half. Good mu.
Scyther: 2hko Golbat with Wing Attack, ohko Haunter and Meg with Wing Attack, ohko Sneasel with Rock Smash, 2hko Mag with Rock Smash. Take too much damage to effectively sweep: Golbat Air Cutters for about half, Mag Twaves and Sparks you down, Sneasel outspeeds and can finish you off with Faint Attack, even Meg can take you out if you’re barely living. You do 1v1 everything, so you can knock out a few before you eventually go down. Decent/good.
Ninetales: Ohko Mag and Sneasel with Flamethrower, Haunter with Fire Blast. Bat and Meg are 2hkod even with FB. You’ll be forced to take some damage but your lack fo weaknesses against Silver’s common moves makes you more resilient in this fight compared to Scyther. Good mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam ohkos Haunter, is a roll on Golbat, 2hkos Mag, 3hkos Meg. Sneasel outspeeds and 2hkos so avoid that. Haunter also outspeeds and can Confuse you, and Golbat if it lives will do half with Bite. Meg does around half with Petal Dance. Decent.
Gengar: Opted to not run specs here so as to facilitate the move switching Gar needs for this fight. Thunder ohkos Golbat, FB ohkos Mag and Sneasel, SBall ohkos Haunter, and SBomb 2hkos Meganium. You’ll have to avoid Sneasel as it outspeeds and Faint Attack is a roll to ohko you. You can afford to miss once or twice, as the biggest damage you’ll take is from Golbat’s Bite which does around half. Good mu.
Scyther: 2hko Golbat with Wing Attack, ohko Haunter and Meg with Wing Attack, ohko Sneasel with Rock Smash, 2hko Mag with Rock Smash. Take too much damage to effectively sweep: Golbat Air Cutters for about half, Mag Twaves and Sparks you down, Sneasel outspeeds and can finish you off with Faint Attack, even Meg can take you out if you’re barely living. You do 1v1 everything, so you can knock out a few before you eventually go down. Decent/good.
Ninetales: Ohko Mag and Sneasel with Flamethrower, Haunter with Fire Blast. Bat and Meg are 2hkod even with FB. You’ll be forced to take some damage but your lack fo weaknesses against Silver’s common moves makes you more resilient in this fight compared to Scyther. Good mu.
Girafarig: Specs Psybeam ohkos Haunter, is a roll on Golbat, 2hkos Mag, 3hkos Meg. Sneasel outspeeds and 2hkos so avoid that. Haunter also outspeeds and can Confuse you, and Golbat if it lives will do half with Bite. Meg does around half with Petal Dance. Decent.
All 33
Gengar: Outspeed and ohko both with Specs Shadow Ball. Flawless mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack is a roll to ohko Golbat (in your favor) and a roll to 2hko Weezing (seemingly in Weezing’s favor, could be 50/50). Assuming you take the most attacks (a Wing Attack from Golbat and 2 Sludges from Weezing) you will survive on little HP but a potential poison will kill you. Golbat also has the potential to Confuse Ray which could decimate you if you’re unlucky. At the same time you could just win both rolls or get lucky vs Confuse Ray / Smokescreen from Weezing. Good mu, but with the potential for disaster.
Ninetales: Fire Blast ohkos Golbat, 2hkos Weezing (Flamethrower achieves the same roll, so use that vs Weez). In the event of a miss you take little damage from Bat and Weez’s direct attacks. Great mu.
Girafarig: TS Psybeam ohkos both Bat and Weez, no need for specs. Flawless mu.
Gengar: Outspeed and ohko both with Specs Shadow Ball. Flawless mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack is a roll to ohko Golbat (in your favor) and a roll to 2hko Weezing (seemingly in Weezing’s favor, could be 50/50). Assuming you take the most attacks (a Wing Attack from Golbat and 2 Sludges from Weezing) you will survive on little HP but a potential poison will kill you. Golbat also has the potential to Confuse Ray which could decimate you if you’re unlucky. At the same time you could just win both rolls or get lucky vs Confuse Ray / Smokescreen from Weezing. Good mu, but with the potential for disaster.
Ninetales: Fire Blast ohkos Golbat, 2hkos Weezing (Flamethrower achieves the same roll, so use that vs Weez). In the event of a miss you take little damage from Bat and Weez’s direct attacks. Great mu.
Girafarig: TS Psybeam ohkos both Bat and Weez, no need for specs. Flawless mu.
Same levels
Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball is a roll to ohko Arbok (only lived once for me so it seems to be incredibly in your favor), sack to lock into Sludge Bomb and ohko Murkrow. Vileplume barely lives and sleeps in retaliation but can’t actually touch you back. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Krow and Plume, 2hkos Arbok. Bok is the annoying part as it forces you to sack for Intimidate and can paralyze you with Glare, forcing a para heal. Good mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos Krow and Plume, 2hkos Arbok. Arbok barely lives a Fire Blast so might as well Flamethrower for accuracy, like with Scyther it Glares forcing a para heal. Good mu.
Girafarig: Psybeam is a roll to ohko Arbok (appears to not be in your favor), Strength 2hkos Murkrow, and Beam 2hkos Plume. If Arbok gets the Glare, Crunch will do about half, while Murkrow’s Pursuit will leave you in the red, well in range of an attack from Plume. Basically get the roll and you win, lose it and you have a 75% chance to lose. Decent/good.
Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball is a roll to ohko Arbok (only lived once for me so it seems to be incredibly in your favor), sack to lock into Sludge Bomb and ohko Murkrow. Vileplume barely lives and sleeps in retaliation but can’t actually touch you back. Great mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Krow and Plume, 2hkos Arbok. Bok is the annoying part as it forces you to sack for Intimidate and can paralyze you with Glare, forcing a para heal. Good mu.
Ninetales: Flamethrower ohkos Krow and Plume, 2hkos Arbok. Arbok barely lives a Fire Blast so might as well Flamethrower for accuracy, like with Scyther it Glares forcing a para heal. Good mu.
Girafarig: Psybeam is a roll to ohko Arbok (appears to not be in your favor), Strength 2hkos Murkrow, and Beam 2hkos Plume. If Arbok gets the Glare, Crunch will do about half, while Murkrow’s Pursuit will leave you in the red, well in range of an attack from Plume. Basically get the roll and you win, lose it and you have a 75% chance to lose. Decent/good.
Giraf and Scyther 34, rest 33
Gengar: Ohko the dogs with SBomb / Focus Blast. Specs is unfortunately required to ohko Houndoom so you will have to switch after killing Houndour with SBomb (or just Focus thrice but idk I ain’t taking that chance). You can switch out again vs Koffing who is 2hkod by Blast but it can’t really hurt you back so the risk of missing isn’t that big (unless you miss literally every Blast and are forced to struggle lol). Good mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Houndour and 2hkos the rest. Interestingly my Scyther seems to speed tie with Houndoom, as Doom attacks first turn 1 and I go first on the next turn. However even if you win the tie Fire Fang is too much damage as leaves you to be finished off by Koffing next turn. Decent.
Ninetales: Fire Blast 2hkos Houndour and Koffing, 4hkos Doom. Doom outspeeds and 2hkos with dark move so no go there. Dour and Koffing are much more feasible tho as their attacks to little in comparison. Decent.
Girafarig: Psybeam ohkos Koffing, Strength 2hkos Houndour and 3hkos Doom. You can eat one Faint Attack from Doom but it outspeeds so it has to be at around 1/3rd HP if you want to finish it off. Otherwise it cleans up the weaker opponents same as Ninetales. Decent.
Gengar: Ohko the dogs with SBomb / Focus Blast. Specs is unfortunately required to ohko Houndoom so you will have to switch after killing Houndour with SBomb (or just Focus thrice but idk I ain’t taking that chance). You can switch out again vs Koffing who is 2hkod by Blast but it can’t really hurt you back so the risk of missing isn’t that big (unless you miss literally every Blast and are forced to struggle lol). Good mu.
Scyther: Wing Attack ohkos Houndour and 2hkos the rest. Interestingly my Scyther seems to speed tie with Houndoom, as Doom attacks first turn 1 and I go first on the next turn. However even if you win the tie Fire Fang is too much damage as leaves you to be finished off by Koffing next turn. Decent.
Ninetales: Fire Blast 2hkos Houndour and Koffing, 4hkos Doom. Doom outspeeds and 2hkos with dark move so no go there. Dour and Koffing are much more feasible tho as their attacks to little in comparison. Decent.
Girafarig: Psybeam ohkos Koffing, Strength 2hkos Houndour and 3hkos Doom. You can eat one Faint Attack from Doom but it outspeeds so it has to be at around 1/3rd HP if you want to finish it off. Otherwise it cleans up the weaker opponents same as Ninetales. Decent.
- Pretty great as expected. Gastly period ultimately weighs it down but I STRESS it's not as useless as it could be. The great defensive typing and support movepool make it a good supporter for the first three gyms. After that, Gengar just starts tearing shit up. Solid A. 
- this thing is considered "uber tier" in the on-site list, and while I'm not sure what that means exactly, there is nothing really uber about Scyther. For one its shit availability already kills any S tier placement, but even once you get it (hopefully with Technician, as that can have a massive effect on things), it doesn't always perform as admirably as an S or an A tier would. This is owing a lot to its low base power moves (even with Tech, Wing Attack is base 90, which while good, isn't nuclear, and is held back by the lack of boosting options) and lack of coverage (best option is Rock Smash lmfao), leading it to kind of hit a wall post-Chuck. While it doesn't exactly ever not get back on its feet, it has yet to hit the same peak it did with Chuck and has had quite a few shaky, decent, or outright bad mus (Jasmine in particular just blanks you). Feeling B on this so far. 
- Ninetales has always been my preferred Fire Stone-evolving fire type, I think, for its early access to Flamethrower, requiring no hard questions about when to evolve it unlike with Growlithe. Ninetales certainly appreciates a strong, accurate STAB option at a point in the game when no other fire type has one, and until Nasty Plot at Blackthorn this is its strongest niche. Moving more into the midgame, however, Ninetales' average special attack begins to rear its head, and it begins missing some ohkos / 2hkos that you would expect out of a mon with a 120 bp STAB move. Definitely a B at this point, NP maaayyybbeee could push it to A but considering Clair/Lance is coming up I highly doubt it. 
- this quirky little gemini is certainly unique, and with its typing and out of the way but not too far off availability, it feels like it was designed to counter Morty particularly. Giraf is still relevant outside of that mu; it's psychic typing pretty much ensures that. But it has somewhat disappointing stats, always good but not quite exceptional. Much like with Ninetales and Scyther it feels like it misses some damage rolls it really should be getting, but with the aforementioned stats and also relying on Psybeam / Strength for STABs you're kinda losing out. Maybe having Specs on it more would make a difference but Giraf is inherently a mixed attacker so that feels weird. Also feeling B but could dip to C depending on how the lategame progresses. Have a few runs going atm and potentially more on the horizon but I hope to get this one out of the way quick. Will update when this is finished.
Okay, so following up on Ryota's Lugia post, I decided to test Lugia for myself and...it's better than I thought.
Disclaimer: I’m not using the six Calcium Ryota did - My matchups are more noticeably range-heavy, but not enough where it really matters in my opinion. I didn’t use them as I was curious on how it would go otherwise.
In conclusion, minor problems against Rival, Lance being...Lance and some support like maybe a few PP Ups / a PP Max on Aeroblast (or a few Ethers) turn Lugia into an unstoppable machine. Lugia is A tier in my eyes. Sure, you have to invest, but when there's nothing better to Master Ball and you're required to go there anyway for purposes of plot, getting it isn't an issue for me. Lugia, despite some snags, is one of the most dominant Johto Elite Four mons I've ever seen in my life.
A tier, for sure.
Disclaimer: I’m not using the six Calcium Ryota did - My matchups are more noticeably range-heavy, but not enough where it really matters in my opinion. I didn’t use them as I was curious on how it would go otherwise.
Lugia (45): Icy Wind from Sneasel is annoying but you can take three Faint Attacks so you can afford to miss (MW Hydro Pump outside rain leaves Sneasel in red). Rain Dance MW Hydro Pump OHKOs it and Magneton in rain. Problem is if Icy Wind is used, Haunter outspeeds and revenges Lugia. Ugh.
Haunter is a annoying here. Either it’s gonna do damage with Shadow Ball (5HKO though, not really a problem) or, worse, just Curse you, which is very bad with Golbat’s Bite flinching and other mons waiting in the wings. Magneton like 6HKOs with Spark btw.
New strategy: Specs Aeroblast. You OHKO Sneasel and 3HKO Magneton (who paralyzes you). Haunter's Shadow Ball a 5HKO (lol) and you OHKO it back with Specs Aeroblast. Specs Aeroblast 2HKOs Feraligtr (knocks it to red) but it got a lucky Defense drop and killed me. Also Struggle 2HKOs Kadabra. Good overall, but you’re gonna need some switching or team support for roughly one mon unless you have some really good luck.
Haunter is a annoying here. Either it’s gonna do damage with Shadow Ball (5HKO though, not really a problem) or, worse, just Curse you, which is very bad with Golbat’s Bite flinching and other mons waiting in the wings. Magneton like 6HKOs with Spark btw.
New strategy: Specs Aeroblast. You OHKO Sneasel and 3HKO Magneton (who paralyzes you). Haunter's Shadow Ball a 5HKO (lol) and you OHKO it back with Specs Aeroblast. Specs Aeroblast 2HKOs Feraligtr (knocks it to red) but it got a lucky Defense drop and killed me. Also Struggle 2HKOs Kadabra. Good overall, but you’re gonna need some switching or team support for roughly one mon unless you have some really good luck.
Lugia (45): Specs Aeroblast ALMOST OHKOs Xatu #1 and leaves Xatu #2 alive too. It unfortunately does not OHKO Jynx however, not even close, who can Lovely Kiss you. Both Jynx and Slowbro live Specs Aeroblast in mid-yellow.
Don’t usually do this, but X Special fixes this problem. You OHKO everything in 5 Aeroblasts as long as you don’t miss: seeing as how Xatu is guaranteed to U-Turn the setup is a non-issue. Jynx is a range apparently for Specs +1 Aeroblast though. Great!
Also, Specs Shadow Ball seems to change nothing about this matchup other than OHKOing Xatu #1 slightly easier.
Don’t usually do this, but X Special fixes this problem. You OHKO everything in 5 Aeroblasts as long as you don’t miss: seeing as how Xatu is guaranteed to U-Turn the setup is a non-issue. Jynx is a range apparently for Specs +1 Aeroblast though. Great!
Also, Specs Shadow Ball seems to change nothing about this matchup other than OHKOing Xatu #1 slightly easier.
Lugia (46): Specs Aeroblast does not OHKO Forretress (Specs Extrasensory is a range to 3HKO). Everyone else is OHKOed by Specs Extrasensory reliably bar Muk, who is a range. Still though, they can’t hurt you anyway, so yeah.
Lugia (47): Hitmonchan is a range to OHKO with Specs Extrasensory (Ice Punch is a 4HKO): everyone else save Machamp is OHKOed by Specs Extrasensory. In both of my attempts Machamp flinched to Extrasensory and Rock Slide is like a 4HKO. Heck, you could even X Special on Hitmontop if you really wanted to.
Also, Specs Aeroblast OHKOs everyone save Onix, who even in Sandstorm is 2HKOed (takes it to red normally).
Also, Specs Aeroblast OHKOs everyone save Onix, who even in Sandstorm is 2HKOed (takes it to red normally).
Lugia (48): Specs Aeroblast somehow barely 2HKOs Umbreon (!!) and 2HKOs Gengar, though Spite is kinda annoying due to your limited PP. You’ll need to switch out, but Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Gengar and you can easily switch back in to take a Pluck from Murkrow after Gengar, who Specs Aeroblast OHKOs.
Specs Aeroblast 2HKOs Doom (who seems to go for Nasty Plot) and OHKOs Vileplume. Umbreon notably does NOT seem to be a range, though it comes close. Surprisingly good, albeit some switches are needed.
Specs Aeroblast 2HKOs Doom (who seems to go for Nasty Plot) and OHKOs Vileplume. Umbreon notably does NOT seem to be a range, though it comes close. Surprisingly good, albeit some switches are needed.
Lugia (49): Gyarados’s Ice Fang is a 4HKO. Rain Dance Thunder OHKOs Gyarados but leaves Aerodactyl alive (it barely misses the 2HKO with Rock Slide).
But really, IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE! With two X Accuracies, and one X Special, you steamroll Gyarados, steamroll Aero (at roughly half HP after Rock Slide), OHKO all three Nites, and leave Zard alive with Thunder in red, who barely misses the KO on you with Shadow Claw. Used NevermeltIce Blizzard. Gyardos's Ice Fang is a 4HKO, so this setup and a Full Restore is possible. Yes, item abuse but it's friggin Lance. Not much to say.
But really, IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE! With two X Accuracies, and one X Special, you steamroll Gyarados, steamroll Aero (at roughly half HP after Rock Slide), OHKO all three Nites, and leave Zard alive with Thunder in red, who barely misses the KO on you with Shadow Claw. Used NevermeltIce Blizzard. Gyardos's Ice Fang is a 4HKO, so this setup and a Full Restore is possible. Yes, item abuse but it's friggin Lance. Not much to say.
In conclusion, minor problems against Rival, Lance being...Lance and some support like maybe a few PP Ups / a PP Max on Aeroblast (or a few Ethers) turn Lugia into an unstoppable machine. Lugia is A tier in my eyes. Sure, you have to invest, but when there's nothing better to Master Ball and you're required to go there anyway for purposes of plot, getting it isn't an issue for me. Lugia, despite some snags, is one of the most dominant Johto Elite Four mons I've ever seen in my life.
A tier, for sure.
- Status