Metagame Pokébilities

[Byleth]

Braviary-H is one of the biggest threats in this tier as has been said time and time again by players who are much better at the game than me. However IMO it has a lot of flexibility. The item choice is obvious and Psychic + Hurricane are auto includes, but what about the EV spread / nature or the other two moves? I’ve seen people running bulky sets with three attacks + roost, fast three attack + agility sets, and even two attacks + both roost and agility (I do not advise doing this). Is shadow ball better because it hits more for super effective or is heat wave better because it covers more? Are bulky or fast sets better? I’d love to know y’all’s thoughts :)

I think because of the amount of unaware and somewhat passive answers in general you'll want to run fast sets more often than not. If you are going to run a third attack, go Heat Wave over Shadow Ball as you will hit Ghosts and Psychics hard enough with your stabs where Heat Wave can be an accurate option to delete steels as opposed to Hurricane. As for my standard set, it goes as follows:


Braviary-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hurricane

This is a set I've run on my Hyper Offense team, here. Tera Flying removes Braviary's weakness to Sucker Punch so Kingambit takes longer to properly answer it or fails under screens, and honestly you don't really hit much with Heat Wave besides a select amt of steels if you don't want to tera/miss bc Tera Flying Hurricane will cover that anyway. Agility is a 100% must on all sets because the speed is terrible and it's strong enough to where one agility vs an offensive team without priority will win the game easily.

Tera Flying over Psychic or defensive abilities is what I prefer if you can afford screens, because the power is just extremely noticeable (i factored sheer force + tinted in all these calcs):

wall of calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 265-312 (57.2 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 320-377 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 294-346 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 416-491 (104 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ohko's where heat wave doesn't)

As you can see Tera Flying Hurricane does an absurd amount of damage that absolutely 0 defensive tera's can save you from, and at +1 it basically 2hko's the entire tier (thanks tinted) and at +0 it OHKO's anything not specially bulky. A bulkier set that has like Heavy Duty Boots could seem appealing for longevity but I feel like it would lose the stupid breaking power SFLO max Sp Attack provides.

While I'm here, I'll drop 2 teams I have had pretty easy success with as well.

Pokebilities Rain (1394 ladder Peak)

Explanation

Since female Basculegion is gone, male has to take its place but it can technically deal more damage anyway and being restricted to just water coverage only really hurts vs mola clod water pon or hydrapple since you OHKO nearly everything else with Wave Crash. 4 Water moves instead of something to hit Clodsire with Ability Shield is worth it, since spamming liquidation when you are at low HP ruins teams that try to make Basculegion die to recoil. I also have a team member that almost always forces Clodsire in to check it, which is Belly Drum Azumarill. The idea is that you Belly Drum and force Clodsire to eat the Knock Off since it will a lot of times be the only answer to Azumarill in rain on a team. Once it does, Clodsire has no ability shield to protect it from Basculegion and then you win that way. If that isn't enough then you have the triple steel rain core in Archaludon Kingambit and Iron Treads who don't need much explanation, standard rain picks that do good in this meta.

Replays

Forced Knock Off on Clodsire to win with Basculegion https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2097889971
Vs Same team Water Absorb Clod (didn't kill Clod to win) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2097847371?p2
Vs Fat https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2093810412
Vs Opposing Rain https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2093818181?p2

Anti Hazards Stall (1496 ladder Peak) 32-3

Explanation

Team is currently 32-3 on the ladder (just missed 1500 elo by 6 points and fell to tilt) but besides that, this team basically disregards any team that banks on winning through hazards and has a grand total of 3 Knock Off absorbers in Clefable and Reuniclus who will never take damage because of Magic Guard and Hydrapple who can't have its item removed because of Sticky Hold. This means the team is very easy to keep healthy and switch in to a lot of offensive threats at all time. Rocky Helmet Clefable is there to ruin most physical attackers without Rocky Helmet, with Tera Steel teched to force strong pokemon like Facade Ursaring to take more Rocky Helmet Chip and to wall Cinccino that has Protective Pads. Rest of team is probably self explanitory, really good team I've been proud of, unfortunately it may struggle to some minor stuff like Wish Pass + breaker it can't deal with or a well placed Swords Dance Tinkaton but other than that team rarely loses when played right.

Replays

Vs Gweezing Kingambit https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099714158?p2
Vs HO https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099691047?p2
Vs Choice Band Hippowdon https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099299687?p2
Vs Spikes Offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099112549?p2
Vs Sand https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099107798?p2
Vs Rain https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2098480136
vs Aurora Veil https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2098433056
vs Chien Pao Aurora Veil https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2098203563?p2
vs Rilla Offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099703729
vs Gweeze Balance w Kingambit https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2099125753?p2
vs Swords Dance Tinkaton Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2098939084?p2
vs Hisuian Arc Balance https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2098489335?p2

 

[biesbas]

I just noticed Lunala isn't listed as 'banned' in the OP, but it is banned on showdown.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I think further discussion on Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui is warranted. I've played 138 matches across my main account "Grains of Salt" and alt "its GOS" and I'm currently sitting at nr 1 on the ladder. I've had great success using both Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion on offensive teams.

Both Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui are increndibly restricting on teambuilding in the current metagame. Depending on the set there's almost no reliable switch ins.

Basculegion is increndibly strong and fast under rain, while still being surprisingly bulky. Adaptability choice bande tera water wave crash under rain has is almost impossible to switch into. Even 4x resists struggle to survive two hits in a row. Because of mold breaker you need to run ability shield on your water absorb mons, like Clodsire. However, as such counter measures become more prevelant Basculegion can easily switch up its moveset to counter that with coverage like psychic fangs and crunch.

I agree with the council that Basculegion-F had to go for the reasons they stated. They named the lack of adequate ghost stab and wave crash recoil as the reasons for allowing Basculegion-M to stay, which I concur are a problem for it. However, I still think Basculegion is too much for the metagame to handle. With 120 HP Basculegion-M is capable of firing of multiple wave crashes before fainting. It will die in the process, but not before blowing massive holes in your opponents team. I've found great success running a moveslot of 4 water moves. Wave crash for damage, flip turn for momentum, Aqua jet for priority and 50/50s with King Gambit/Raging Bolt. The last move can be liqudation for a water stab without recoil, psychic fangs for Clodsire, Ice Fang for Hydrapple and Phantom Force for stab to beat Clodsire if they don't have a normal type. 99% of the time you just click one of your water stabs anyways.

Calcs w/ Tera Water Choice Band Adamant Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs.

Calcs with tera water choice banded adamant Basculegion Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs:
252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 272-320 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 203-239 (57.6 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Corviknight in Rain: 229-270 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 284-336 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-320 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Archaludon in Rain: 197-233 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 215-253 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 415-489 (130.9 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Garganacl in Rain: 197-233 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Rain: 189-222 (62.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 344-405 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill in Rain: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Braviary-Hisui is an increndibly potentent wallbreaker. Byleth has already highlighted the most important points and calcs here, so I won't dwell on it. Depending on the set Braviary-Hisui has no reliable switch. The life orb duel dance set Byleth posted is probably the most consistent set, but choice specs has essentially no switch ins. Specs modest tera flying hurricane 2HKOs max sp.def assault vest slowking-galar and does 41.4-48.4 to the standard blissey set.

I hope we can have a discussion/poll on both of these monsters, as they're currently having a massive impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

 

[typhlosion787]

I think further discussion on Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui is warranted. I've played 138 matches across my main account "Grains of Salt" and alt "its GOS" and I'm currently sitting at nr 1 on the ladder. I've had great success using both Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion on offensive teams.

View attachment 624150

Both Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui are increndibly restricting on teambuilding in the current metagame. Depending on the set there's almost no reliable switch ins.
View attachment 624149

Basculegion is increndibly strong and fast under rain, while still being surprisingly bulky. Adaptability choice bande tera water wave crash under rain has is almost impossible to switch into. Even 4x resists struggle to survive two hits in a row. Because of mold breaker you need to run ability shield on your water absorb mons, like Clodsire. However, as such counter measures become more prevelant Basculegion can easily switch up its moveset to counter that with coverage like psychic fangs and crunch.

I agree with the council that Basculegion-F had to go for the reasons they stated. They named the lack of adequate ghost stab and wave crash recoil as the reasons for allowing Basculegion-M to stay, which I concur are a problem for it. However, I still think Basculegion is too much for the metagame to handle. With 120 HP Basculegion-M is capable of firing of multiple wave crashes before fainting. It will die in the process, but not before blowing massive holes in your opponents team. I've found great success running a moveslot of 4 water moves. Wave crash for damage, flip turn for momentum, Aqua jet for priority and 50/50s with King Gambit/Raging Bolt. The last move can be liqudation for a water stab without recoil, psychic fangs for Clodsire, Ice Fang for Hydrapple and Phantom Force for stab to beat Clodsire if they don't have a normal type. 99% of the time you just click one of your water stabs anyways.

Calcs w/ Tera Water Choice Band Adamant Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs.

Calcs with tera water choice banded adamant Basculegion Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs:
252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 272-320 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 203-239 (57.6 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Corviknight in Rain: 229-270 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 284-336 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-320 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Archaludon in Rain: 197-233 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 215-253 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 415-489 (130.9 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Garganacl in Rain: 197-233 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Rain: 189-222 (62.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 344-405 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill in Rain: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

View attachment 624163

Braviary-Hisui is an increndibly potentent wallbreaker. Byleth has already highlighted the most important points and calcs here, so I won't dwell on it. Depending on the set Braviary-Hisui has no reliable switch. The life orb duel dance set Byleth posted is probably the most consistent set, but choice specs has essentially no switch ins. Specs modest tera flying hurricane 2HKOs max sp.def assault vest slowking-galar and does 41.4-48.4 to the standard blissey set.

I hope we can have a discussion/poll on both of these monsters, as they're currently having a massive impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

Another recent development with Hisuian Braviary is the advent of Vacuum Wave. Yes, you're hurting yourself, but you also have priority for things like Gambit and slower mons with priority. I will say that both have definitely grown in terms of threat level. I do still stand by my belief of Chien-Pao and Arch being bigger issues at the moment, but from what I have played personally (bring top 200 on the ladder) and from what I've spectated, these two have, at least seemingly, had an unhealthy and warping effect on the meta, even leading to thinks like tera dark Brambleghast and Kilowattrel

 

[InkyDarkBird]

The only viable stall Pokemon that can wall Braviary-Hisui is Umbreon, which is unhealthy since there is no other reason to use Umbreon. Also, a funny interaction is that Shiftry completely counters standard Braviary-Hisui sets. Braviary-Hisui can use Psyshock as well, easily 2HKOing Blissey with Choice Specs and having a high chance to 2HKO with Life Orb.
I've personally had few issues with Basculegion because Alomomola Rocky Helmet can chip it down quickly.

 

[typhlosion787]

The only viable stall Pokemon that can wall Braviary-Hisui is Umbreon, which is unhealthy since there is no other reason to use Umbreon. Also, a funny interaction is that Shiftry completely counters standard Braviary-Hisui sets. Braviary-Hisui can use Psyshock as well, easily 2HKOing Blissey with Choice Specs and having a high chance to 2HKO with Life Orb.
I've personally had few issues with Basculegion because Alomomola Rocky Helmet can chip it down quickly.

Even Umbreon isn't an amazing check with Hurricane because while you do have less than a 1/2 chance to hit both, Hurricane has a 96.1% chance to 2HKO a max SpDef Umbreon after Rocks. That's not even taking tera fighting Vacuum Wave into account

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Even Umbreon isn't an amazing check with Hurricane because while you do have less than a 1/2 chance to hit both, Hurricane has a 96.1% chance to 2HKO a max SpDef Umbreon after Rocks. That's not even taking tera fighting Vacuum Wave into account

Well, it's the only stall Pokemon that can at least threaten to 2HKO Braviary-Hisui while not dying itself.

 

[typhlosion787]

Well, it's the only stall Pokemon that can at least threaten to 2HKO Braviary-Hisui while not dying itself.

It's unviable other than that role, though. And most H Braviary sets run max speed, so if you choose to invest speed in hope of outspeeding, you're just making harder to not get 2HKOd. It's a very specific mon that has no other legitimate role as Wish passing is a role it's entirely outclassed in by Alomomola

 

[typhlosion787]

So, the meta is in quite a controversial state right now; and as co-leader, I do feel it's proper to share my own opinions on these problems that exist within the meta. I'm not going to start a public vote, but I would like to gather opinions from the general public about their opinions on the meta and how to fix it. I always find discussion a better way to handle tiering action compared to votes when dealing with metagames that have a significantly smaller playerbase such as our own. Now, onto my opinions on the problems

Chien-Pao: I've only seen three people, including myself, mention Chien, but this mon is absolutely problematic. Yes, the usage is low, but a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that many more casual players don't look at forums to check what has been unbanned before hopping into the meta. Azumarill being the best mon in the meta helps for sure, but even with the small stop gap slowing it down, that has proven to not be enough to make Chien a healthy presence for the tier.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 197-232 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
All Chien needs to do to invalidate Azu if it's out of Jet range is to simply tera dark. Nothing is able to repeatedly stave off Chien repeatedly, even Tauros Aqua and Blaze can be smacked by Psychic Fangs. Definitely the biggest issue at the moment imo.

Archaludon: Arch has been doing the same things it was in base OU, and I personally believe it's just as unhealthy for the meta as it was in OU. None of the pokemon that gain high usage in pokebilities are able to fend off Arch. Clod has again been the only mon that has been able to do so, but even despite this, many Archs have started running Earthquake to deal with Clod and be on their way, completely nullifying it's biggest check
0 Atk Archaludon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 224-264 (48.3 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

H Braviary: This thing has had a crazy journey. From me saying it would only be useful on Trick Room to realizing it doesn't fit on Trick Room and is much better on Webs and para spam teams to now running Agility the majority of the time, the one thing that had stayed consistent for a while was priority checking, even if not countering, this avian. With the advent of Vacuum Wave, especially in tandem with tera fighting, though, I personally believe this mon has been pushed over the edge by a fair amount. Yes, it does deal damage to itself if it uses Vacuum Wave, but overwriting priority from Azu and Gambit due to speed tiers alone is huge. That's not all, though. It opens up more opportunities for Braviary to come in due to ability to revenge kill. Yes, it still has the Stealth Rocks weakness, which sucks. Yes, it struggles with 4 moveslot syndrome, but that doesn't stop it from using the versatility it has to blitz through the majority of teams effortlessly. Psychic and Hurricane are guaranteed, but the last two are a toss up and there's a lot of moves you want. U-Turn, Heat Wave, Agility, Calm Mind, Roost, Vacuum Wave, Defog, several great options. Even despite this, though, it hasn't lowered Braviary H's impact on the tier. It was teetering on the edge of brokenness for a bit, but with Vacuum Wave becoming more common, it is absolutely problematic right now imo.

Basculegion M: I was originally against a Basc M ban, but with most of them swapping Liquidation out for Psychic Fangs, this thing has gotten so much more broken.
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 374-440 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dondozo, Alomomola, and Hydrapple are really the only things that can hard stop Basc M in Rain after tera and Rocks without being forced into tera themselves. Even some 4x resist mons such as Wake aren't able to deal with the sheer damag output of Basc.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 160-189 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
All these pokemon are definitely good, but Hydrapple and Dondozo are almost exclusively used on stall teams and don't fit well on many archetypes. Alo is used on balance as well and not just stall, which makes it much more reliable, but even with that and the fact that Basc M will take itself out over the course of the game, the carnage it leaves in the aftermath is too much to recover from in the extreme majority of situations. I originally thought that it taking itself out and the water resists would hold it back enough, but I have been proven wrong.


Clefable?!: I personally don't believe Clef as a whole to be too much. So why do I mention it? Well, in the OM discord, I've seen a few complaints (and complained myself) about one specific set, Cosmic Clef. I still don't believe Clef in general to be problematic, but I do think the Cosmic set is bordering that level of broken. The big way to deal with Cosmic sets is speed invested Weezings with Haze or tera dark/steel Clodsire. It is incredibly strong, but it did take over a week for these strategies for Cosmic Clef to start picking up, so maybe we'll see more phasing moves or Haze users in the coming weeks. I don't think Clef is too big an issue right now, especially compared to the other mons on the chopping block.

Like I stated earlier, please feel free to give your own thoughts as well along with adding to the discussion of which mons you feel may belong in this discussion. It's much harder to get tiering action accomplished in OMotMs due to their limited time frame, and having the general public give their opinions speeds up the process by a ton.

 

[typhlosion787]

One of the first things I've noticed when teambuilding in pokebilities since DLC2 dropped was that every good team both that I've built myself and that I've seen others build always has one of three pokemon on it with the only exceptions being hard stall and snow teams. Those three mons being Azumarill, Kingambit, and Tusk. It's a dynamic that reminds me a bit about RBY's big 3 despite the plentiful differences that make this big three a more balanced approach (although Gambit is still a bit contentious) to the idea. Some of the most important factors in pokemon (except 3, which is much more specific to pokebilities and less applicable across different metas) include

1. Priority

2. Hazard play (setting and removal)

3. Item play (both item removal and how well they abuse items)

4. Weather abuse

5. Setup/win condition

6. Typing

7. Status

The first thing you notice about all of these three immediately is that they all have a minimum of five out of these categories filled. All of them have 3-6 filled. Azu and Gambit are only kissing points 2 and 7(and Gambit technically does have Rocks and Thunder Wave, but it never uses them) while Tusk only misses points 1 and 7. Ticking even just one of these boxes is a major deal, so ticking 5/7 is monumental.

All of Azu, Gambit, and Tusk are allowed to be so threatening and versatile due to how many of these boxes they check and while the meta is currently being overran by rain, Braviary H, and Chien-Pao, that hasn't stopped the big 3 from being prominent as one of the three is required on every team except snow and hard stall for said team to be viable

 

[TheSunIsADedlyLazr]

I CTRL-F'd Enamorus on this thread and only saw it sporting an unelaborated A viability ranking. Well, at least as far as Rain teams go, allow me to elaborate a bit!

While T-Stellar gets rightfully laughed at most of the time, Contrary allows Enam-I to boost with it when it otherwise has no means to self-boost, and then it has STAB Draining Kiss for recovery, Weather Ball Rain both for Fires and simply raw power for neutral damage, and Earth Power for Steels, Electrics, Poisons, and Fires outside of Rain. By no means unbeatable, and needing the Tera to boost is a steep cost for some, but if you're struggling to think of something for the last slot in your rain team, give it a whirl! I'll give my personal set below:

Cupid Shuffle (Enamorus) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Tera Blast
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power

I actually initially conceived this as a specs set, but realized that in a meta like this, you can't rely entirely on the boost stacking (Several Unaware users about, yanno), so I instead opted for AV since it's not looking to run any status regardless, and Vest would give it a little more longevity vs some Special attackers. Play your entry right, and this thing might not pull out a 6-0, but it'll rip a few holes in the enemy team.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hello again! I wanted to share my current peak and chime in on the discussion above.

I've played around 210 games across my three alts: its GOS, Grains of Salt and AllJokesAside and now I've managed to peak the ladder with all three accounts! So I figured I should take a break now until somebody comes for the top spot. I've used a bunch of different teams, but the peaks were reached using my main HO team.

Peak:

Also managed to go on a 27-0 winstrak with AllJokesAside. I was two-three matches away from reaching nr 1 (well, nr 3) when I lost so that was a bummer. Ended up at 40-2 when I reached the ELO in the picture above. I'll wait until the end of the month, or when one of my pokemon get banned, before sharing the team.

One of the first things I've noticed when teambuilding in pokebilities since DLC2 dropped was that every good team both that I've built myself and that I've seen others build always has one of three pokemon on it with the only exceptions being hard stall and snow teams. Those three mons being Azumarill, Kingambit, and Tusk.

First of all thank you typhlosion787 for being so active on the forum and encouraging discussion on the metagame trends, it's the mark of a good OM leader!

With that said, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the current metagame. Kingambit is the omnipresent god Pokebilities so I won't dispute that, but while Azumarill and Great Tusk are good - they're certaintly not metagame defining.

I was a bit puzzled when you first refered to Azumarill as the best pokemon in the tier (post #209). Azumarill has been quite underwhelming in my experience. I don't think the metagame is particularly favourable to it currently. A grass immunity is great, and a quad resistance to fire and ice is quite nice, but I don't think that makes up for the metagame trends that work against it. First and foremost is the how prevelant Clefable and Clodsire are. Unless you're running Ice Spinner the latter is a hardcounter, and without choice band Clefable can wall you as well. In addition to this there's also a general lack of fire and ground types in the metagame. Clodsire is so important that it often takes the ground type slot for most teams, which makes justifying Ting-Lu and Landorus-Therian more difficult. The latters viability is especially hurt by Kingambit being omnipresent. Gliscor is popular, but it usually runs tera water. With protect it can usually scout the Azumarill set and might even get of a toxic. It's not the easiest matchup for Azumarill.

I think Great Tusk suffers quite a bit from how popular rain and Clefable. It's a very solid rapid spinner and hazard setter, but in my experience it's been a bit underwhelming whenever I've faced it. It suffers from ground slot competition from Clodsire. A lot of the mons that Great Tusk is great at dealing with in OU are also less common in Pokebilities. Pokemon with only 1 ability, even if that one ability is great, aren't seen as often because it people want to experiment with double or triple abilities. This adds more competition for team slots resulting in pokemon like Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Kyurem, Gholdengo and Landorus-Therian etc are less common. On the other hand a lot of the new threats have favourable matchups against Great Tusk such as Clefable, Chien-Pao, Azumarill, Braviary-H, Reuniclues, and rain.

I think Clefable and Kingambit are both S tier, with Clodsire being S- tier, and together they define the current metagame.

Clefable and Kingambit are both extremely valuable and versatile on almost every type of team you want. The exception being Clefable is rarely seen on HO and Kingambit rarely seen on stall. Depending on the set they can pick and choose their checks and counters. I've seen Tera Electric Clefable to handle Raging Bolt + Kingambit cores expecting tera water. I've seen grassy seed calm mind + stored power sets to give it an additional defense boost. It also has the option to run cosmic power, which is incredibly difficult to stop. It can run stall/utility sets with wish/stealth rock/knock off/thunder wave/trick too. For items it can run leftovers, sticky barb, toxic orb/flame, rocky helmet, weakness policy and ability shield.

Kingambit is amazing for all the reasons its amazing in OU (35% usage in march). With defiant it turns intimidate matchups on its head, heavily discourages your opponent from using sticky web and can occationally grab an attack boost from random drops. It's increndibly strong and difficult to stop, especially with Tera. I've even seen people run choice banded Kingambit as a wallbreaker to great effect.

I think Clodsire is a bit worse than the others for being a lot more predictable and easy to exploit with physical attacks. However it's such a great glue pokemon that its difficult to not use it. It compresses so many roles into one. It's a Basculegion, Azumarill, Raging Bolt, Clefable and Braviary-H check/counter all in one depending on its moves and tera. It's a great hazard setter and statusspreader too. I think the metagame would be significantly worse without it.

Regrading Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion. I still believe both warrent a ban because of all the reasons previously stated. I think both have gotten worse with sychic fangs and vacuum wave being used more to counter common checks. I made my inital post a week ago and we've had a bit of back and forth here already. We only have a month with this metagame and I think it's time to make a decision. I would also support a Chien-Pao suspect test tbh, it's going to be a problem eventually.

 

[typhlosion787]

Hello again! I wanted to share my current peak and chime in on the discussion above.

I've played around 210 games across my three alts: its GOS, Grains of Salt and AllJokesAside and now I've managed to peak the ladder with all three accounts! So I figured I should take a break now until somebody comes for the top spot. I've used a bunch of different teams, but the peaks were reached using my main HO team.

Peak:
View attachment 626172

Also managed to go on a 27-0 winstrak with AllJokesAside. I was two-three matches away from reaching nr 1 (well, nr 3) when I lost so that was a bummer. Ended up at 40-2 when I reached the ELO in the picture above. I'll wait until the end of the month, or when one of my pokemon get banned, before sharing the team.



First of all thank you typhlosion787 for being so active on the forum and encouraging discussion on the metagame trends, it's the mark of a good OM leader!

With that said, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the current metagame. Kingambit is the omnipresent god Pokebilities so I won't dispute that, but while Azumarill and Great Tusk are good - they're certaintly not metagame defining.

I was a bit puzzled when you first refered to Azumarill as the best pokemon in the tier (post #209). Azumarill has been quite underwhelming in my experience. I don't think the metagame is particularly favourable to it currently. A grass immunity is great, and a quad resistance to fire and ice is quite nice, but I don't think that makes up for the metagame trends that work against it. First and foremost is the how prevelant Clefable and Clodsire are. Unless you're running Ice Spinner the latter is a hardcounter, and without choice band Clefable can wall you as well. In addition to this there's also a general lack of fire and ground types in the metagame. Clodsire is so important that it often takes the ground type slot for most teams, which makes justifying Ting-Lu and Landorus-Therian more difficult. The latters viability is especially hurt by Kingambit being omnipresent. Gliscor is popular, but it usually runs tera water. With protect it can usually scout the Azumarill set and might even get of a toxic. It's not the easiest matchup for Azumarill.

I think Great Tusk suffers quite a bit from how popular rain and Clefable. It's a very solid rapid spinner and hazard setter, but in my experience it's been a bit underwhelming whenever I've faced it. It suffers from ground slot competition from Clodsire. A lot of the mons that Great Tusk is great at dealing with in OU are also less common in Pokebilities. Pokemon with only 1 ability, even if that one ability is great, aren't seen as often because it people want to experiment with double or triple abilities. This adds more competition for team slots resulting in pokemon like Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Kyurem, Gholdengo and Landorus-Therian etc are less common. On the other hand a lot of the new threats have favourable matchups against Great Tusk such as Clefable, Chien-Pao, Azumarill, Braviary-H, Reuniclues, and rain.

I think Clefable and Kingambit are both S tier, with Clodsire being S- tier, and together they define the current metagame.

Clefable and Kingambit are both extremely valuable and versatile on almost every type of team you want. The exception being Clefable is rarely seen on HO and Kingambit rarely seen on stall. Depending on the set they can pick and choose their checks and counters. I've seen Tera Electric Clefable to handle Raging Bolt + Kingambit cores expecting tera water. I've seen grassy seed calm mind + stored power sets to give it an additional defense boost. It also has the option to run cosmic power, which is incredibly difficult to stop. It can run stall/utility sets with wish/stealth rock/knock off/thunder wave/trick too. For items it can run leftovers, sticky barb, toxic orb/flame, rocky helmet, weakness policy and ability shield.

Kingambit is amazing for all the reasons its amazing in OU (35% usage in march). With defiant it turns intimidate matchups on its head, heavily discourages your opponent from using sticky web and can occationally grab an attack boost from random drops. It's increndibly strong and difficult to stop, especially with Tera. I've even seen people run choice banded Kingambit as a wallbreaker to great effect.

I think Clodsire is a bit worse than the others for being a lot more predictable and easy to exploit with physical attacks. However it's such a great glue pokemon that its difficult to not use it. It compresses so many roles into one. It's a Basculegion, Azumarill, Raging Bolt, Clefable and Braviary-H check/counter all in one depending on its moves and tera. It's a great hazard setter and statusspreader too. I think the metagame would be significantly worse without it.

Regrading Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion. I still believe both warrent a ban because of all the reasons previously stated. I think both have gotten worse with sychic fangs and vacuum wave being used more to counter common checks. I made my inital post a week ago and we've had a bit of back and forth here already. We only have a month with this metagame and I think it's time to make a decision. I would also support a Chien-Pao suspect test tbh, it's going to be a problem eventually.

While I do disagree with you on the Tusk, Azu, Clef, and Clod part, it's very understandable why you think that Clef and Clod are better. They definitely have their reasons for being seen as better.

As for Braviary H and Basc M, I've come to agree with that for sure. Just one move on each of them being used more has made their limited counter and check pool even less than it was before. Speaking of slapping on one move to beat what used to be a counter, every Arch set I've played against recently runs Earthquake, making it to where even Clod, unless it's the Curse set, can't wall it. Chien-Pao is still doing Chien-Pao things as well. Tera dark Choice Band Crunch is still almost impossible to reliably switch into and many sets have started running Psychic Fangs instead of Sacred Sword to deal with the rare Toxapex and Paldean Tauros forms. I do still believe it was better to wait before making these decisions like we ended up doing instead of rushing in just so an attempt could be made to develop counterplay and see if it was actually strong enough to stop these pokemon, which it turns out the counterplay wasn't enough as the counter-counterplay is almost always worth it and does enough for these pokemon to blitz through their old checks

 

[Imperator Romanum]

While I do disagree with you on the Tusk, AAZ, Clef, and Clod part, it's very understandable why you think that Clef and Clod are better. They definitely have their reasons for being seen as better.

As for Braviary H and Basc M, I've come to agree with that for sure. Just one move on each of them being used more has made their limited counter and check pool even less than it was before. Speaking of slapping on one move to beat what used to be a counter, every Arch set I've played against recently runs Earthquake, making it to where even Clod, unless it's the Curse set, can't wall it. Chien-Pao is still doing Chien-Pao things as well. Tera dark Choice Band Crunch is still almost impossible to reliably switch into and many sets have started running Psychic Fangs instead of Sacred Sword to deal with the rare Toxapex and Paldean Tauros forms. I do still believe it was better to wait before making these decisions like we ended up doing instead of rushing in just so an attempt could be made to develop counterplay and see if it was actually strong enough to stop these pokemon, which it turns out the counterplay wasn't enough as the counter-counterplay is almost always worth it and does enough for these pokemon to blitz through their old checks

I presume you and Ivy have been discussing potential tiering actions internally. When could we expect a decision to made on the afformentioned threats? A poll or a unilateral decision would both be welcome, to speak for myself. I'd like to hear what the community thinks of Braviary-H, Basculegion, Chien-Pao, Clefable, Archaludon and Kingambit.

 

[typhlosion787]

I presume you and Ivy have been discussing potential tiering actions internally. When could we expect a decision to made on the afformentioned threats? A poll or a unilateral decision would both be welcome, to speak for myself. I'd like to hear what the community thinks of Braviary-H, Basculegion, Chien-Pao, Clefable, Archaludon and Kingambit.

I still need to find a time that works well enough for both Ivy to talk about the problematic pokemon because I don't know their time zone, so I haven't been able to get to it quite yet. A lot of my time over the past few days has also been trying to clip farm replays for Freezai's upcoming video on the meta. I personally think a poll would be the best way to see community opinion and go from there.

 

[Ivy]

thanks for the ping; I've been visiting family these past few days and haven't had a chance to to act on anything here. since I'm still away for a bit longer and feeling a tad lazy, I figure what we can do now is indeed to put up a poll and see what people think is most problematic. I'm definitely inclined to complete the basculegion ban and finally free clod from its mandatory ability shield status (mold breaker on such a good mon is pretty antithetical to the metagame's concept, ngl). removing Arch on top of that would also cut rain down to the level of the remaining weathers (like sand being in limbo ever since its mascot excadrill was vaniquished).
Here's a ranked choice poll where people can sort out their apex threats (1st =most broken, 6th = least broken): https://app.rankedvote.co/rv/h8bvzccqwjhbhb6k3f/vote

 

[eto89]

Okay so since we're talking about bans, I had some thought I wanted to share. I want to say upfront that I didn't play that much and most importantly, and this is gonna kill my credibility, I still haven't learnt how to team build, so all this comes from limited experience (got to top 50 tho so gotta mean something i think) and even worse theory. First thing first I need to thank Byleth in particular and any teambuilder on the thread, jumping in on a metagame and founding fun teams to use is the best, and byleth's stall and rain are the main teams I used on ladder (I will learn how to teambuild i promise) and i have to say, i definetly agree that basculegion is broken, but probably something that has to do more with my playstyle, most of the time i found myself using archaludon to punch holes (and azu is literally designed to chip and clear the way for legion) to use basculegion only to clean up most of the times, thanks to the threat of priority (if i calced i probably would have stayed in twice the times I actually did). Other than that there is literally no way to get a positive trade into archaludon, it will get a ko and half a mkn mlst of the time, also gambit players keep thinking I would preserve it instead of clicking body press, and while that definitely inflated my perspective of it, I thought it was funny. Other than that chien pao definitely is broken, but to be fair it isn't splashable on a team and needs to be played good to get maximum value, so definitely broken but those are the excuses for ladder not spamming it. Hisuian braviary has proven his worth against me, but in practice 1 it needs to hit hurricane if it wants to break (but if it does, you're dead) 2 agility sets never use the right moves for the matchup/are weak to priority and legion even after an agility. So counting that legion is broken and braviary literally has the same weaknesses but is a breaker instead of a sweeper, I'd say it does its job better than legion does his, but since the meta is so offensive, legion role is better than braviary. If basculegion was banned (or even just archa could be a possibility but I don't have the competency to say that) and the meta settled to allow morr balance braviary would rip them apart so I can see a preventive ban as much as a possible balanced braviary kept in check by priority not named gambit (which would be the 1 raging bolt I've seen in the ladder and huhhhhhh azu i Guess?). As for clefable my experience against it is that either your offense doesn't give it free turns or you get into an unaware war, and my experience using standard non cosmic power sets is that there will be one side of the offence that crushes you and another you're decent against, but you'll always have enough to survive a hit from any setup Mon of the tier (without chip wich should and will be possible to achieve when I will "get gud"). Most annoying thing is actually the cute charm which isn't anything serious but it's fun to throw a male clef into a ladder that usually use female Mon to avoid enamorus (which I never saw so I'm almost convinced to use 50/50 gender myself). Kingambit was on the list, but I just got used to his brokenness being containable most of the time. What I feel is that the 50 50 mindgames are easier without tera in account, and i literally haven't seen a kingambit with a good tera yet, if it gets figured out i could definitely see it getting out of hand.
So tl dr, basculegion Is most probably broken, archaludon needs to go, braviary is kinda ok but definitely becomes broken when you realise it's calcs, chien pao isn't easy to use but it's broken, clefable is annoying at most, kingambit is either played well with the right tera and the 50/50 to autowin or is "just" the best Pokémon in the tier, still neutral on his ban
Also last note™, really hope to see AllJokesAside (imperator romanum) again for a rematch after our first and last game to get a better peek at his secret team, other than that thanks for everyone who partecipate in the community, hope i will get better at writing these post. Also I will probably learn how to do the sprite thing to spice up those walls of words.

Btw here is the reason I played on showdown every day at least two games, and it isn't a real ladder session but it still feels good even on a dead OM ladder

 

[typhlosion787]

removing Arch on top of that would also cut rain down to the level of the remaining weathers (like sand being in limbo ever since its mascot excadrill was vaniquished).

Rain definitely wouldn't be as bad as sand, I mean, you do still have Kingdra as a possibility, a mon which I underrated a ton before the meta returned. Rain also still has Drednaw and Basculin will take the place of the Basculegions, but not be completely broken. It wasn't overwhelming pre-home, so I highly doubt it'd be overwhelming now. Rain will probably still be either the best weather or right behind sun due to Proto mons, fire types, and H Lilligant

 

[excitedly ava]

I've been pretty inactive in this OM lately but given the talk of potential bans/suspect tests, I'd like to weigh in on the mons currently being discussed in terms of bans.

Basculegion

It's no secret that this oversized fish is strong, but I genuinely think that it alongside Braviary-H are holding rain together. Rain as an archetype is strong, especially in this OM, but I really think that if besides from Legion, Braviary, and Arch, your best Rain sweepers as Basculin, Drednaw and Kingdra, I kinda feel like it's going to fall off hard if two or three of the aforementioned get banned. This will obviously lead to Sun or Sand being the dominant weathers, the latter being more likely imo, in agreement what Typhlosion has said about Proto mons/fires/Lilligant. That being said, I do still support a ban on Basculegion. Rain will be by no means unusable, just considerably weaker.

Braviary-H

Much of my reasons for a ban are stated above, alongside Basculegion; however, it should be noted that it does not solely fit on rain teams. Agility sets, CM/Vacuum Wave sets, Specs sets, etc., etc., the versatility on this thing is unrivaled. Team preview does almost nothing regarding this thing and you never quite know what it's going to be running. All in all, yes, I absolutely support a ban on Braviary-H,not only because of its sheer power (pun intended), but also its unpredictability, and overall puts way too much pressure on teambuilding.

Archaludon

I don't really know what to think about this one. Arch is strong, absolutely, no doubt in that. Means of boosting SpA via Electro Shot in rain, Stamina, Sturdy, EQ for Clod, an amazing defensive typing with monstrous stats, Arch has just about anything you could possibly ask for. But I don't think that it's unhealthy or broken. It's extremely vulnerable to chip, unless you run Rest, which is risky. Chien-Pao does cause problems for it, which I will go more in-depth into. Essentially, I believe that Arch's ban-worthiness depends on Chien-Pao and the other Rain Boys™.

Chien-Pao

I really don't know how to feel about this one, since there's so many factors to consider. If Clefable gets banned, I 100% believe that Chien-Pao should be as well, since aside from that the only real answer to it would be Azu. Azu is by no means bad, but there aren't many other mons that are well-equipped to handle the raw power of Chien-Pao. However, if Clefable remains legal (by some miracle) I believe it should still be banned since at that point 3 teamslots would be predetermined otherwise. If Arch gets banned AND Clef gets banned, again, absolutely Chien should be banned. Basically, yeah, this and Clef are my two absolutes, but I think an unban at a later point in time would and should be considered.

Clefable

Ban it. Please. Please please please. Cosmic power + reliable recovery + so many setup options + item versatility thanks to Magic Guard + Unaware + coverage is just too strong. Quite frankly I think no matter what is legal in the meta, if it gets one or two turns to set up, it can be nigh unkillable. There's never a reason not to use Clefable. Clod is the only answer and that ends up going to Struggle anyways or loses to Stored Power, and the only other thing I can think of is Honchkrow which isn't that great anyways and relies on Super Luck to break through, which is by all means unhealthy.

Kingambit

Given my position on Braviary, I would kinda support a ban on this guy, but extremely hesitantly. It and Clod are staples of the meta; however, Kingambit is very strong. It can easily overwhelm a team after its checks are chipped. This being said it is by no means unbeatable or broken, just very strong. I am uncertain of how the other bans might affect its strength. I believe it should remain unbanned for the time being, and if it proves to be problematic after the upcoming bans or not, a suspect test would be reasonable.

other things

pls unban conk, hes so silly and he just wants to hit people with rocks. hes literally me. also if Clef remains legal, I actually unironically think it should be unbanned.

OK that's it, this meta is really cool but I do think overall it's in an unhealthy spot, and Clef, Basc and Braviary-H are kind of wreaking havoc. It kinda feels like there's just 5 predetermined teamslots by default, and there's a ton of really interesting mons that benefit greatly from the perk of this OM, and I'd like to see some more variety or some typically weaker mons become strong and more variety in general.

 

[Ivy]

I've been pretty inactive in this OM lately but given the talk of potential bans/suspect tests, I'd like to weigh in on the mons currently being discussed in terms of bans.

Basculegion

It's no secret that this oversized fish is strong, but I genuinely think that it alongside Braviary-H are holding rain together. Rain as an archetype is strong, especially in this OM, but I really think that if besides from Legion, Braviary, and Arch, your best Rain sweepers as Basculin, Drednaw and Kingdra, I kinda feel like it's going to fall off hard if two or three of the aforementioned get banned. This will obviously lead to Sun or Sand being the dominant weathers, the latter being more likely imo, in agreement what Typhlosion has said about Proto mons/fires/Lilligant. That being said, I do still support a ban on Basculegion. Rain will be by no means unusable, just considerably weaker.

Braviary-H

Much of my reasons for a ban are stated above, alongside Basculegion; however, it should be noted that it does not solely fit on rain teams. Agility sets, CM/Vacuum Wave sets, Specs sets, etc., etc., the versatility on this thing is unrivaled. Team preview does almost nothing regarding this thing and you never quite know what it's going to be running. All in all, yes, I absolutely support a ban on Braviary-H,not only because of its sheer power (pun intended), but also its unpredictability, and overall puts way too much pressure on teambuilding.

Archaludon

I don't really know what to think about this one. Arch is strong, absolutely, no doubt in that. Means of boosting SpA via Electro Shot in rain, Stamina, Sturdy, EQ for Clod, an amazing defensive typing with monstrous stats, Arch has just about anything you could possibly ask for. But I don't think that it's unhealthy or broken. It's extremely vulnerable to chip, unless you run Rest, which is risky. Chien-Pao does cause problems for it, which I will go more in-depth into. Essentially, I believe that Arch's ban-worthiness depends on Chien-Pao and the other Rain Boys™.

Chien-Pao

I really don't know how to feel about this one, since there's so many factors to consider. If Clefable gets banned, I 100% believe that Chien-Pao should be as well, since aside from that the only real answer to it would be Azu. Azu is by no means bad, but there aren't many other mons that are well-equipped to handle the raw power of Chien-Pao. However, if Clefable remains legal (by some miracle) I believe it should still be banned since at that point 3 teamslots would be predetermined otherwise. If Arch gets banned AND Clef gets banned, again, absolutely Chien should be banned. Basically, yeah, this and Clef are my two absolutes, but I think an unban at a later point in time would and should be considered.

Clefable

Ban it. Please. Please please please. Cosmic power + reliable recovery + so many setup options + item versatility thanks to Magic Guard + Unaware + coverage is just too strong. Quite frankly I think no matter what is legal in the meta, if it gets one or two turns to set up, it can be nigh unkillable. There's never a reason not to use Clefable. Clod is the only answer and that ends up going to Struggle anyways or loses to Stored Power, and the only other thing I can think of is Honchkrow which isn't that great anyways and relies on Super Luck to break through, which is by all means unhealthy.

Kingambit

Given my position on Braviary, I would kinda support a ban on this guy, but extremely hesitantly. It and Clod are staples of the meta; however, Kingambit is very strong. It can easily overwhelm a team after its checks are chipped. This being said it is by no means unbeatable or broken, just very strong. I am uncertain of how the other bans might affect its strength. I believe it should remain unbanned for the time being, and if it proves to be problematic after the upcoming bans or not, a suspect test would be reasonable.

other things

pls unban conk, hes so silly and he just wants to hit people with rocks. hes literally me. also if Clef remains legal, I actually unironically think it should be unbanned.

OK that's it, this meta is really cool but I do think overall it's in an unhealthy spot, and Clef, Basc and Braviary-H are kind of wreaking havoc. It kinda feels like there's just 5 predetermined teamslots by default, and there's a ton of really interesting mons that benefit greatly from the perk of this OM, and I'd like to see some more variety or some typically weaker mons become strong and more variety in general.

I'm intrigued by your alternative there where clef stays but conk is also freed. the general power creep wasn't enough to make exca safe, but conk has yet to be retested and may be a useful tool to mix things up.

 

[excitedly ava]

I'm intrigued by your alternative there where clef stays but conk is also freed. the general power creep wasn't enough to make exca safe, but conk has yet to be retested and may be a useful tool to mix things up.

that's my general thought process, to be honest; i really do feel like conk would be the only mon with enough raw power on switching in to deal with clef after one or two cosmic powers. Exca probably would too but I feel like that's just too strong, and would make sand teams as a whole unbalanced. Conk I feel is slow enough to be dealt with (even if it has Mach Punch) and imo can't really sweep as well as something like Excadrill could. I feel like Conk was and would be similar to Kingambit in the sense that it's strong, but not necessarily ban-worthy.

 

[typhlosion787]

that's my general thought process, to be honest; i really do feel like conk would be the only mon with enough raw power on switching in to deal with clef after one or two cosmic powers. Exca probably would too but I feel like that's just too strong, and would make sand teams as a whole unbalanced. Conk I feel is slow enough to be dealt with (even if it has Mach Punch) and imo can't really sweep as well as something like Excadrill could. I feel like Conk was and would be similar to Kingambit in the sense that it's strong, but not necessarily ban-worthy.

I definitely see your argument for Conk getting unbanned, but I do disagree with it. The big reason it got banned last gen was because it 2HKOd everything other than the Weezings (which were used to check several other threats, reliant on Pain Split and Leftovers, and got worn down over time by Rocks) with its stab or coverage , and that has only gotten worse this gen. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if it's bulk wasn't still solid by itself, which allows it a shocking amount of opportunities to get on the field and start forcing sacks. Even the Weezings can't counter Conk now if it runs tera normal because you don't need Guts to 2HKO a max defense Weezing or Geezing if you have tera normal Facade with max attack after Rocks. And that's just offensive tera. Tera types like fairy, steel, water, and poison would give it many useful resistances and further increase its switchin ability. You can't stop Conk with status unless you're fine with boosting it, you can't wear it down over time through hazards because of boosted Drain Punch, the only thing holding it back at all is speed, which while a big deal, I personally don't believe is enough to hold it back enough to make it worthy of retesting due to the benefits of terastalization. Yes, terastalization also allows more "counterplay" to Conk, but in most cases where a mon can tera to not be weak to one of Conk's coverage moves, it has another coverage move that can 2HKO the same pokemon after it exhausts its tera. My final point is the increasing prevalence of status. We have pokemon like lead Galvantula, lead Ribombee, Clodsire, Zapdos, Heatran, Moltres, Glimmora, and even the increase in Wisp and T Wave sets on Dragapult, and while Conk doesn't like switching in on some of these pokemon, the increase in status flying around is an important point to bring up due to the fact that it can clear up an item slot to allow Conk to run something much more beneficial such as Assault Vest, Leftovers, or Life Orb.

 

[typhlosion787]

thanks for the ping; I've been visiting family these past few days and haven't had a chance to to act on anything here. since I'm still away for a bit longer and feeling a tad lazy, I figure what we can do now is indeed to put up a poll and see what people think is most problematic. I'm definitely inclined to complete the basculegion ban and finally free clod from its mandatory ability shield status (mold breaker on such a good mon is pretty antithetical to the metagame's concept, ngl). removing Arch on top of that would also cut rain down to the level of the remaining weathers (like sand being in limbo ever since its mascot excadrill was vaniquished).
Here's a ranked choice poll where people can sort out their apex threats (1st =most broken, 6th = least broken): https://app.rankedvote.co/rv/h8bvzccqwjhbhb6k3f/vote

Wanted to ask about the state of the poll at the current moment and see how it's shaping up. As we're reaching the last four days of the month and there's no way to confirm the meta returning (because as much as I want pokebilities to become an official OM and not just be relegated to OMotM, that isnt gonna happen unless we get monumental support, which would likely have to come from big names in the community such as Aim, Blunder, or Freezai) in the remaining lifespan of gen 9, I feel it'd be better to clear out as many issues as possible. Even if it is in the last few days, it is important that we do take action in what little time remains.

 

[Ivy]

Chien-Pao, Haviary, and M-Basc got the most votes, and they seem like a good batch to get out of the way hopefully in time for the month to wrap up. Rain will still have Arch wreaking some havoc, and gambit also remains a force to be reckoned with. People will certainly have to pack some more creative ways of dealing with clefable as the brainless wall smashers get eliminated. submitted the pr and awaiting branch merger.

 

[typhlosion787]

Chien-Pao, Haviary, and M-Basc got the most votes, and they seem like a good batch to get out of the way hopefully in time for the month to wrap up. Rain will still have Arch wreaking some havoc, and gambit also remains a force to be reckoned with. People will certainly have to pack some more creative ways of dealing with clefable as the brainless wall smashers get eliminated. submitted the pr and awaiting branch merger.

Thanks for being so quick to respond. Hope I wasn't annoying you by asking about the poll so soon after it was created. This change will be absolutely huge and incredibly helpful in the last few days of the meta, and if the meta does return for one last go before gen 10, we can see what happens then.