OU's Overrated mons

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by wildfire363
I'm actually rather liking the thought of Support Dragonite, to be honest. Though I don't know why the given set suggests Dragon Pulse/Flamethrower. Seems to me that Draco Meteor is almost twice as powerful as Dragon Pulse on the first hit, about the same power on the second hit, and I don't really see him staying in for more than 2 hits. Running Screen/Bell, Twave, Roost, and Draco Meteor with a heavily defensive spread could be fairly brutal. STAB Draco Meteor off of 100 Special Attack, even with little or no investment will still do some serious damage. Switch in and cripple something, support the team, or take a huge chunk out of something. Roost keeps Stealth Rock from wearing him down too much. For bonus points, pair him with Salamence or Flygon and use him to scout for and paralyze their counters and take chunks out of them while keeping the team free from status or protecting them from special attacks.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

Its on the analysis... The reason Draco Meteor isn't as favorable is because it will allow things to set up. Well, you could use Draco Meteor because Thunder-wave is a set-up deterrant so its worth considering, but the set you described is listed nevertheless. I'm thinking the Dragon Dance set should be completely removed though... its just an inferior Salamence.

 

[Slobroking]

Uhm Dragon Dance Dragonite is still perfectly viable and can still sweep. Tbh I´d much rather face mixed attacker than the Dragon Dancer.

You could also use both DD Dragonite and DD Salamence (one to weaken the "counter" and one to sweep).

 

[Green Mage]

Argument for Porygon-Z

Great argument, and you make me want to try it!

I would have liked to see a list of pokemon that it is capable of switching into that have higher def, though.

 

[cim]

I think Gliscor is heavily overrated. What does it do exactly? It doesn't counter Scizor, Tyranitar, or Lucario (unless it runs Speed) and it doesn't have that great of a support movepool, so why people are still using it as a pure wall beats me.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

1. Which Pokemon stop it?
2. To what extent do they stop it?
3. Does the sweeper have any options to get past its counters / checks?
4. What kinds of teams are those Pokemon used on?

In Alakazam's case, its poor defenses mean that if it takes an attack it will likely be KOed. So the Pokemon which stop it are either naturally faster, are holding Choice Scarf, or are using a Priority move.

Additionally, Blissey can switch into Alakazam and, even if it takes a Trick, will likely defeat Alakazam 1v1 or cripple it. So that answers questions one and two. As far as tech options go, Alakazam doesn't really have anything that will allow it wo win against any of the above mentioned Pokemon; most of the attacks it takes are physical, and it will still lose to Blissey after it tricks.

I never thought I'd see the day when someone said Alakazam had no aces to play against its 'counters'. Blissey is not stopped, although it is hindered, by plenty of moves in Alakazam's arsenal (the most paranoid being things like Taunt, Knock Off, DS, and the aforementioned Trick). Also, if Alakazam can successfully Encore something like Softboiled, it gives you a distinct advantage.

Question four is difficult to come up with a concrete answer for, but as it is the most important question, generalizations will have to do. Every offensive team under the sun is using at least one priority Pokemon, probably 80% of them use at least one Pokemon with Choice Scarf, and occasionally they will use things like Jolteon and Weavile which outspeed Alakazam. So Offensive teams will likely have little trouble with Alakazam.

Alakazam's a little bit difficult to switch into, though, if you're a half decent battler, and the likelihood is that something is going to be killed, and another seriously damaged, if you pick the wrong move. Alakazam is unpredictable, but in a different way to Salamence or Clefable; most people expect to have to deal with a powerful Psychic move, which is surprising when it can lock your Cresselia on Reflect, remove your Scizor's Life Orb, effectively neutralise Blissey and stop you using Thunder Wave.

I realize that generalizing all common teams into three basic types is a bit naive, but with only six Pokemon allowed per team the generization is fairly accurate. Since all common team types carry multiple Pokemon which can easily defeat it, Alakazam is not worth using in OU.

Since all common teams carry multiple pokemon that can deal with Tentacruel, then, it's not worth using in OU. Ditto Heracross.

@Lee: I'm fairly sure the ZamZelf complex doesn't apply entirely to Alakazam. They both have their merits as special sweepers, but you shouldn't just apply these to Azelf.

 

[Olie]

I think Gliscor is heavily overrated. What does it do exactly? It doesn't counter Scizor, Tyranitar, or Lucario (unless it runs Speed) and it doesn't have that great of a support movepool, so why people are still using it as a pure wall beats me.

I never really like using Gliscor as a straight wall anyway. One combo that was particularly fun to use was a duo Sand Veil + Brightpowder combo alongside Garchomp, but that's all done now. I still occasionally run Gliscor to baton pass Swords Dance boosts to my scizor (who takes incoming ice attacks pretty nicely).

 

[wildfire393]

I think Gliscor is heavily overrated. What does it do exactly? It doesn't counter Scizor, Tyranitar, or Lucario (unless it runs Speed) and it doesn't have that great of a support movepool, so why people are still using it as a pure wall beats me.

Gliscor beats Lucarios who don't run Ice Punch. Gliscor has a decently powerful Swords Dance set (which also beats Lucarios, regardless of Ice Punch). Gliscor is one of the better Baton passers in OU (like a good version of Ninjask). His support movepool is good, and he has a good set of resists and immunities.

 

[SkarmBlissFTW]

What wildfire said and I run a Gliscor with Fire Fang so Scizor ain't a problem :)
Gliscor can handle T-tar pretty well. He beats nearly every version that don't have Ice Beam and the sandstorm T-tar brings activates Gliscor's Sand Veil.

 

[Chou Toshio]

B-Pass Gliscor does seem the way to go with it these days. Gliscor-Metagross is surprisingly effective.

Even to the point where people try to abuse Gligar in the same way in UU . . .

 

[wildfire393]

Gliscor... overrated? What? Okay, he sucks as a wall, but hes a good tank, and can run a stupidly powerful Swords Dance set (it outdamages Yachechomp, erhm...), and hes the best Baton Passer in OU.

Not quite. With Swords Dance + Life Orb, he gets very close to Garchomp's attack. He still lacks STAB Outrage, however (and really any alternate STAB to Earthquake, unless you want to use the way underpowered Aerial Ace), which means that his damage output can never be quite that of Garchomp's. Earthquake can match 'Chomp's Earthquake damage, but nothing can match the power (and coverage) of Chomp's Outrage.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, Outrage is pretty "meh" as a move... so you could say I meant Earthquake, lol. But isn't Super Effective Stone Edge good enough for all the fliers?

 

[freakyvillain]

You'd be surprised at how often a Ninjask lead lets me instantly win. I run Sub/SD/Baton Pass/X-Scissor along with Liechi Berry which often lets me pass +3 Atk/+4 Spe to Rhyperior, thereby easily winning me the game (most of the time).

Usually, opponents don't recognize the threat fast enough to switch immediately to a phazer (or they might lack one on their team) and instead just straight out attack me, allowing me to activate the berry after 3 subs. Also, they often use SR on the first turn which gives me a chance to SD.

Ninjask's weaknesses are fire/flying/electric/rock/ice all of which except ice are resisted by Rhyperior (and ice doesn't do much anyway due to his massive bulk and Solid Rock). The only one of Rhyperior's weaknesses I really need to worry about on the switch is water and that can be countered by switching into a baton passing Vaporeon.

Against lead priority users, I always switch out which puts me at a disadvantage but those aren't too common. If they switch in a priority user, I would have already set up a sub so I get some safety net. I can either sub behind my sub (on a predicted attack, dangerous if they set up instead), or pass my current sub and +1 Spe (or +2 Spe +2 Atk if they took the time to SR first) to an appropriate counter.

The only other things I need worry about are Trick Scarfers and Taunt/Encore. Very fast Trick Scarfers aren't a big problem since they're rare on lead and after a single turn, I would outspeed any that tries to switch in. One can run protect over X-Scissor to block this but I wouldn't recommend it because of Taunt. The most common taunt lead I've seen is Azelf which I can beat by subbing first turn and X-Scissoring right after. X-Scissor is also good to use against suspected sash leads that may ruin a Rhyperior sweep. Encore is very rare on lead; I've only seen lead Machamp with this and those aren't very common at all.

So lead Ninjask isn't as bad as most people here seem to believe; sure, he's easily countered but he's still a big threat when used correctly. He can be used both on dedicated baton pass teams as well as regular teams looking for a quick sweep and on the latter, he isn't completely dead weight if he is switched out early on. With his great speed, he can sometimes revenge kill a weakened enemy/psychic type and occasionally, if he switched out at full health early on, he may still get a chance to pass +1 Atk/+1 Spe late game if the opponent's counter is taken out.

And as for Gliscor, that's definitely not overrated in my opinion. Adamant 216 Spe EQ/Stone Edge/SD/Roost Gliscor counters a lot of physical threats and can easily set up on things like Blissey and Zapdos. He outspeeds Adamant Lucario (by far the most common type) and OHKOs with EQ so even with Ice Punch Luke loses against him. And Jolly can be used on Gliscor to outspeed all Lukes if necessary. I've also never had a problem against Scizor with him. X-Scissor and Superpower/Brick Break are both resisted and Bullet Punch is next to useless. I just SD up alongside Scizor and 2HKO with SD EQ.

And besides, he is probably the best Baton Passer in OU with access to fast Taunt preventing Hazing/Phazing/Perish Song.

 

[burnpsy]

Porygon-Z is by no means overrated. There's all of those things everyone else mentioned, plus the fact that I've used Scarf-Z for a long time and it gets surprising KOs on quite a few things...

I think Gliscor is heavily overrated. What does it do exactly? It doesn't counter Scizor, Tyranitar, or Lucario (unless it runs Speed) and it doesn't have that great of a support movepool, so why people are still using it as a pure wall beats me.

This is the mindset that allows me to get a +4 Earthquake on every Scizor that tries to come in, thinking they'll get me with +2 Bullet Punch! >.<

 

[Tangerine]

Before you guys try to argue something is "overrated" I recommend trying to use the Pokemon in a different way - many of the dumbest arguments here are people with really static and outdated notions on how to use a given Pokemon and calling it "overrated"

Rather than calling a Pokemon overrated - why don't we find new ways to use these Pokemon? A lot of these Pokemons have more uses than you think. It's a more productive discussion than everyone pitching in their "Scizor is overrated because it is trapped by Zone and killed by fire moves" or "Gliscor is overrated because it doesnt wall things as well as DP" - there are still plenty of different ways to use a Pokemon and calling anything overrated because of that isn't going to go anywhere, not to mention it is absolutely retarded. I already infracted a few users for this and I'm not going to stop - such reasoning is juvenile and really makes me wonder if you used your brain in the past few weeks

"Overrated" is a dumb word anyway - you use what is useful and if it wasn't useful people will stop using it! Rather than using overrated let's be more productive shall we?

 

[Aldaron]

That was my point regarding Ninjask earlier. It's overrated for the way it is used currently.

If people stopped using it as a lead and focused more on a late game surprise sweep, it would drastically improve in overall battle performance.

Unfortunately, people to only use Pokemon as told (having an analysis kind of makes this happen) and rarely try to maximize its utility.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Against lead priority users, I always switch out which puts me at a disadvantage but those aren't too common.

....Tay pointed out that the most common lead uses Priority. Scarfrachis aren't uncommon either.

 

[Misa]

If people stopped using it as a lead and focused more on a late game surprise sweep, it would drastically improve in overall battle performance.

Believe it or not, I have tried using Ninjask as late-game sweeper. But with the prevalence of stealth rock and priority moves, Ninjask has a really hard time setting up and sweep.

Not to mention he gets countered by a lot of things like salamence and gyarados, and has plenty of weaknesses to boot. It would work as a surprise, but to me, it just doesn't seem to be a capable late-game sweeper.

 

[Lee]

@Lee: I'm fairly sure the ZamZelf complex doesn't apply entirely to Alakazam. They both have their merits as special sweepers, but you shouldn't just apply these to Azelf.

Really? You're going to have to do a little better than that to convince me. Give me a decent reason why anyone should use Alakazam over Azelf. 'Zam has the odd little quirk but it'll very rarely compensate for Azelf's overall superiority.

I would have liked to see a list of pokemon that it is capable of switching into that have higher def, though

Haha, I'd like to see a list of Pokemon he is capable of switching into, period. Like TAY said in the OP, Normal typing makes it very difficult to get a decent switch in. You might be able to catch the odd ScarfGar but Gengar has higher SpD so it's a bit of a letdown.

If you can get in against Skarmory, Hippowdon, Gliscor or any similar physical walls they will often flee in fear of Thunderbolt or Ice Beam. It's usually easy enough to sneak in on a support move. Porygon-Z only takes 60BP from Grass Knot so Celebi is a decent chance to switch in if you can avoid Thunder Wave. Rotom-A tend to have higher Def so you can jump in on a Shadow Ball if you're sneaky.

Most of the time I'd bring him in after a death though...Scarftran will usually switch out if he's locked into anything other than Fire Blast...same applies to ScarfZone's that you can normally come in on after they've HP Fire'd your Scizor. It's important to note that you still get the +1 SpA if the opponent's Defences are equal so you can occassionally call a Salamence's bluff and make him think you're Scarfed (or Timid) with Ice Beam but that's always going to be risky.

Not an easy set-up I'm afraid. :(

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Really? You're going to have to do a little better than that to convince me. Give me a decent reason why anyone should use Alakazam over Azelf. 'Zam has the odd little quirk but it'll very rarely compensate for Azelf's overall superiority.

Well, for starters, the ability to be a pure special sweeper and beat Blissey one-on-one (although admittedly only really paranoid Alakazam users will go to these lengths).

I calculated the stats for the average Azelf and Alakazam (using Legendary Pokemon's calculator):

Standard Hasty 252SAtk/252Spd/4HP Azelf: 291/287/158/349/176/361
Standard Timid 252SAtk/252Spd/4HP Alaka: 251/123/126/369/206/372

Of all the stats, both Azelf and Alakazam are higher than each other in three stats each. Since this is about special sweeping, we can ignore attack, although going boom is always an option. Looking at HP and Sp. Def together, they are both about equal in that area. Azelf champions in the defensive area, however its defence is still calamitously low. And of course, Alakazam excels in the offensive area.

But this doesn't answer your question. What does? Well, mostly that you can always be surprised by what Alakazam does. It can Encore you, Taunt you, and Trick you. My Scizor came in on an Alakazam once, expecting to ward it off, when suddenly it used Light Screen, Flame Orb activated and my Scizor was next to useless. Gimmicky, I know, but it illustrates the point; it never fails to surprise you. Sure, many other pokemon can run complex and gimmicky strategies, but Alakazam has a support movepool that some pokemon would kill for, and therein lies its great value to its team and to the metagame. Azelf doesn't do this. If it's leading, you know what it will do, more or less. If it's not, it's either a Plotsweeper, or a rare physical variant, which are more or less irrelevant since nobody uses them.

 

[BalancedPower]

Honestly I totally agree with this, especially Alakazam. Others that don't "belong", in my opinion are:

Dragonite: Seriously, this thing is so outclassed it's not funny. What with Flygon, Kingdra, Salamence, and now even Latias and possibly Latios, there is no single niche that this can boast about. All the other Dragons of OU have their own specific roles and specialties, but Dragonite is just a sloppy mix of all of them and less.

Weavile: This thing is basically on the same boat as Alakazam; it can do a lot of damage, just doesn't have the defenses or attacks to do so in the right situations. This can at least use Pursuit and Ice Shard to be a respectable revenge killer, but would I reccomend someone using it? No. Would I use it? Hell no. It just doesn't give enough in balance with its problems.

Alakazam, is weak I think everyone knows that. But with Choice Scarf he is the fastest Trickster in the game, with his high speed and special attack, he is a decent sweeper, but he is still someone who can screw it up for another team. The whole Blissey argument is redundant if you predict and Trick Blissey into a Choice item, and there you just crippled Blissey. Not to mention with Focus Blast, Alakazam can take out Blissey. Not to mention, that every pokemon has it's weakness, and a lot of things get owned by Blissey. But that is why every team should have a good fighter in them ^_^!

I disagree on Dragonite. Dragonite has a lot of things going for him, part of this is that he can used Mixed Sweeper very well. He has access to moves Salamence doesn't (Superpower) and other moves. He has a great moveset and pretty good stats, he maybe weaker to Salamence in some situations, but as Salamence is one of the strongest sweepers in OU, that doesn't mean Dragonite is bad. I have had plenty of success with Dragonite, and I really don't think he is that overated. Once again, the variety is what makes him so appealing, I love Jack-Of-All-Trades Pokemon, they are very useful in a fight, and I still believe he is a strong sweeper.

As for Weavile, I can't comment, I really don't use Weavile in any of my teams though I really haven't tried him, most of my teams are in testing right now and Weavile isn't making it on one of them because those teams have enough physical power, though I am intrigued by the lead Weavile

Dugtrio.
The thing only use is as a trapper. Even outclassed at that. It is in the same boat as flygon except worse. It need band to hit hard enough and scarf to hit fast enough. In a priority metagame it is frail. His only viable as a heatran revenge killer.

I disagree with this, he is really quick without scarf and with Band and Adamant nature he is a strong revenge killer. First off he destroys Heatran revenge killing as you mentioned. Secondly, he has a good access to moves, with Sucker Punch/Earthquake/Stone Edge/w/e you want he can destroy teams. Flyers thing they can come in, but once again Stone Edge is their to counter, Sucker ruins any Ghost/Psychic that tries to use Thunderbolt, so you can switch and Sucker for what generally is a OHKO. Earthquake is a powerful move and STAB on him, and destroys most of Steel pokemon out there. What makes him most appealing for me is the fact that he has the power to take out some of the strongest OU pokemon that resist him. For example if an Empoleon comes, they obviously have an advantage but with Earthquake they are done for, and with the exception of pre-Agility boosted Empoleon, Dugtrio hits first. Flyers like I said are destroyed by Stone Edge. And Sucker just provides a strong move that has good priority and with high attack can destroy sweepers etc.

 

[Kay [Old]]

As for Dugtrio: Raikou mentioned in his Choice thread that a huge problem with Scarfers is that even if they get revenge kill one thing, they'll frequently leave you open to something else that can set up and sweep. While not necessarily a scarfer, Dugtrio as a revenge killer suffers from that problem. Oh, you knocked out my Ape with a Choiced EQ? Oh well, I get to send in my Salamence or Gyarados and they get a free turn to DD! Yay!

Sucker Punch is useless, from my perspective, because Dugtrio can't really trap any ghosts/psychics out there (since with the exception of Starmie, Alakazam, and Dusknoir, all the OU Psychics/Ghosts have Levitate) and any competent player know the Sucket Punch is coming and will switch out to something else. So yeah, I find Dugtrio pretty overrated.

 

[Pyromanic]

I disagree with this, he is really quick without scarf and with Band and Adamant nature he is a strong revenge killer. First off he destroys Heatran revenge killing as you mentioned. Secondly, he has a good access to moves, with Sucker Punch/Earthquake/Stone Edge/w/e you want he can destroy teams. Flyers thing they can come in, but once again Stone Edge is their to counter, Sucker ruins any Ghost/Psychic that tries to use Thunderbolt, so you can switch and Sucker for what generally is a OHKO. Earthquake is a powerful move and STAB on him, and destroys most of Steel pokemon out there. What makes him most appealing for me is the fact that he has the power to take out some of the strongest OU pokemon that resist him. For example if an Empoleon comes, they obviously have an advantage but with Earthquake they are done for, and with the exception of pre-Agility boosted Empoleon, Dugtrio hits first. Flyers like I said are destroyed by Stone Edge. And Sucker just provides a strong move that has good priority and with high attack can destroy sweepers etc.

It needs scarf to out speed scarftran. With only 80 base attack he will have to work through 4x weaknesses and frailty.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, for starters, the ability to be a pure special sweeper and beat Blissey one-on-one (although admittedly only really paranoid Alakazam users will go to these lengths).

I calculated the stats for the average Azelf and Alakazam (using Legendary Pokemon's calculator):

Standard Hasty 252SAtk/252Spd/4HP Azelf: 291/287/158/349/176/361
Standard Timid 252SAtk/252Spd/4HP Alaka: 251/123/126/369/206/372

Of all the stats, both Azelf and Alakazam are higher than each other in three stats each. Since this is about special sweeping, we can ignore attack, although going boom is always an option. Looking at HP and Sp. Def together, they are both about equal in that area. Azelf champions in the defensive area, however its defence is still calamitously low. And of course, Alakazam excels in the offensive area.

But this doesn't answer your question. What does? Well, mostly that you can always be surprised by what Alakazam does. It can Encore you, Taunt you, and Trick you. My Scizor came in on an Alakazam once, expecting to ward it off, when suddenly it used Light Screen, Flame Orb activated and my Scizor was next to useless. Gimmicky, I know, but it illustrates the point; it never fails to surprise you. Sure, many other pokemon can run complex and gimmicky strategies, but Alakazam has a support movepool that some pokemon would kill for, and therein lies its great value to its team and to the metagame. Azelf doesn't do this. If it's leading, you know what it will do, more or less. If it's not, it's either a Plotsweeper, or a rare physical variant, which are more or less irrelevant since nobody uses them.

So if i am reading this correctly, the reason why Alakazam > Azelf is because it has a better support movepool.

Useful Support Moves (Alakazam only Azelf only:
-Taunt
-Trick
-Knock Off
-Light Screen
-Reflect
-Calm Mind
-Sunny Day
-Rain Dance
-Safeguard
-Thunderwave
-Toxic
-Protect Detect
-Substitute
-Trick Room
-Encore
-Recover
-Stealth Rock
-Nasty Plot
-U-Turn
-Explosion (these two create better switch-in scenarios)

Did I miss something? In all honesty, Encore and Recover are pretty crappy moves on Alakazam. Recover for obvious reasons. Encore because its defenses/typing don't let it encore anything except a limited number of support moves and set-up moves.

Nasty Plot, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Explosion. These are great moves for azelf. I'd say Alakazam's the one with the crappier support-moves.

 

[MDougal]

Actually thats pretty funny that of the 4 support moves that are Azelf only, 3 of them are on standard sets. With the fourth on a slightly less common, but still standard set.

 

[Misa]

Nasty Plot, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Explosion. These are great moves for azelf. I'd say Alakazam's the one with the crappier support-moves.

The only thing that Alakazam does a better job than Azelf is that he uses trick better. That's probably it, along with higher special attack and speed. Not to mention Alakazam can't really beat blissey one-on-one while Azelf has the potential to scare the hell out of it with explosion. Not to mention that Azelf is used more as a lead due to stealth rock/U-turn/and many other advantages (Also, Azelf can learn fire blast and thunderbolt, while Alakazam only gets hidden power.)