OU Usage Stats — August 2013

[Kingler]

But the thing is, once you get that Calm Mind boost, along with Keldeo's normal power, the pony can muscle through all the opposition.

Except Celebi, Lati@s, Amoonguss, Jellicent, Slowking, Rotom-W, and many many more.
Ok i'm done arguing
OiawesomeDG sun teams need to have a good skeleton and what I described is a very common skelly for most teams.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Except Celebi, Lati@s, Amoonguss, Jellicent, Slowking, Rotom-W, and many many more.
Ok i'm done arguing
OiawesomeDG sun teams need to have a good skeleton and what I described is a very common skelly for most teams.

they really don't, I once used a sun team with sawsbuck/exeggutor/tales/latias/volcarona/victini
no spinner, no trapper
peaked #1 on PO when PO was a thing several times, throwing that out there.

I don't really think you play OU sun at all, from what your posts seem to be saying, it's easy to tell when any ol' other joe talks about sun and when someone who has played sun multiple times has, sun teams don't need a skelleton, it's clear you have not even seen what a GOOD sun team truly is. I've been playing sun for all of BW OU, and it definatly does not need a "skelleton" seriously, the only requirement on a sun team is ninetales, I don't know where people get this bullshit thinking from

 

[SJCrew]

Oh, sorry. Yeah, that makes sense. As far as what people are running, I've seen a lot of Sheer Force Conkeldurrs recently.

Sheer Force has some novelty to it, but idk why people are using that when Conkeldurr has Iron Fist. Your two most important moves on that set aren't boosted at all by Sheer Force and you still take LO damage from using them. IMO, Bulk Up is still good, but you'd have to play it more like the All-Out Attacker set to get full mileage out of it.

 

[Halcyon.]

Sheer Force has some novelty to it, but idk why people are using that when Conkeldurr has Iron Fist. Your two most important moves on that set aren't boosted at all by Sheer Force and you still take LO damage from using them. IMO, Bulk Up is still good, but you'd have to play it more like the All-Out Attacker set to get full mileage out of it.

Because Conkeldurr has decent bulk and taking away from that by adding LO recoil to all of your moves is usually not worth it. Not to mention that your most important moves (imo) are Ice Punch and ThunderPunch, since they are the ones that hit your normal would-be counters (Landorus-T, Jellicent, Skarmory, etc), and they get boosted more by Sheer Force than they do by Iron Fist.

 

[Kingler]

they really don't, I once used a sun team with sawsbuck/exeggutor/tales/latias/volcarona/victini
no spinner, no trapper
peaked #1 on PO when PO was a thing several times, throwing that out there.

I don't really think you play OU sun at all, from what your posts seem to be saying, it's easy to tell when any ol' other joe talks about sun and when someone who has played sun multiple times has, sun teams don't need a skelleton, it's clear you have not even seen what a GOOD sun team truly is. I've been playing sun for all of BW OU, and it definatly does not need a "skelleton" seriously, the only requirement on a sun team is ninetales, I don't know where people get this bullshit thinking from

>good sun team
>volcarona, victini and ninetales without a spinner
>argument about PO ladder, supposed to be worse than that of PS
>I'm bsing
>Can't spell 'skeleton'

 

[Spinda]

PO ladder is definitely NOT worse than PS ladder.
I've used a Volcarona sun team without a spinner to good success before, you only really need 1 or 2 good taunters and offensive pressure.

I can't attest to how his team deals with rocks, but I do know there's some odd teams out there that only their creator seems to be able to play to good success.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

>good sun team
>volcarona, victini and ninetales without a spinner
>argument about PO ladder, supposed to be worse than that of PS
>I'm bsing
>Can't spell 'skeleton'

I honestly don't use Venusaur in a sun team, but have fallen in love with Sawsbuck which is OP as fuck. (Quick shoutout to Halycon for that amazing Sun team Dante's Inferno). The only reason why you see skeletons for sun teams is because you see people trying out sun, but not adhering to it, since it's really annoying to try and make Ninetales live long enough as well as any sweepers (aka Volcarona). Also since the skeleton for a sun team is pretty successful already. But sun teams can also go a lot of different routes, and the most successful ones are probably the most creative ones. For example: HO Sun w/ just Ninetales, Dugtrio, and all sweepers; Sawsbuck team (which can basically have only Ninetales weak to SR); Sun DragMag; and you have a lot of other abusers like Jumpluff, Shiftry, Lilligant, etc. I'm also surprised sun is seeing this little usage, because more often than not, when the weather war is done (aka trapper) then Sun wins.

 

[Kingler]

I honestly don't use Venusaur in a sun team, but have fallen in love with Sawsbuck which is OP as fuck. (Quick shoutout to Halycon for that amazing Sun team Dante's Inferno). The only reason why you see skeletons for sun teams is because you see people trying out sun, but not adhering to it, since it's really annoying to try and make Ninetales live long enough as well as any sweepers (aka Volcarona). Also since the skeleton for a sun team is pretty successful already. But sun teams can also go a lot of different routes, and the most successful ones are probably the most creative ones. For example: HO Sun w/ just Ninetales, Dugtrio, and all sweepers; Sawsbuck team (which can basically have only Ninetales weak to SR); Sun DragMag; and you have a lot of other abusers like Jumpluff, Shiftry, Lilligant, etc. I'm also surprised sun is seeing this little usage, because more often than not, when the weather war is done (aka trapper) then Sun
wins.

Finally a good argument. It seems I have yet to explore more types of sun teams.

 

[Jukain]

Finally a good argument. It seems I have yet to explore more types of sun teams.

Yeah, you can get pretty creative with sun. I mean, we're ignoring Cresselia sun, which is basically Cresselia + Ninetales + Chansey + Dugtrio + Forretress/Donphan + Venusaur/Slowbro. My 2k RMT, which is featured in my sig, runs a Choice Scarf Jirachi and a bulky Starmie. Sun teams can get really neat.

 

[ogasian]

Sun is a really scary playstyle to face, especially for weatherless. Sun imo is just so diverse, there are many other sun abusers other than Saur. And even Suar can run the right coverage move to mow down your checks. The hardest thing about sun, however, is winning the weather war. Tales is just a shitty mon, and thats basically the only thing that keeps sun from dominating the metagame. Yeah sun is like stall, you have to know how to build a good team for it to be effective. Its not like rain or sand where even CharizardNoobs can build a half-decent team. The hardest part is teambuilding.

 

[Kingler]

Yeah, you can get pretty creative with sun. I mean, we're ignoring Cresselia sun, which is basically Cresselia + Ninetales + Chansey + Dugtrio + Forretress/Donphan + Venusaur/Slowbro. My 2k RMT, which is featured in my sig, runs a Choice Scarf Jirachi and a bulky Starmie. Sun teams can get really neat.

Sun is a really scary playstyle to face, especially for weatherless. Sun imo is just so diverse, there are many other sun abusers other than Saur. And even Suar can run the right coverage move to mow down your checks. The hardest thing about sun, however, is winning the weather war. Tales is just a shitty mon, and thats basically the only thing that keeps sun from dominating the metagame. Yeah sun is like stall, you have to know how to build a good team for it to be effective. Its not like rain or sand where even CharizardNoobs can build a half-decent team. The hardest part is teambuilding.

I suck at building teams, so I've never built a half decent sun team lol. But really, sun teams are somewhat basically that skeleton with different pokemon taking the role. Sunstall I haven't played with but I imagine it's that cress/chansey core. Sun is awesome though, and nothing counters Venusaur/Volc.

 

[SJCrew]

Because Conkeldurr has decent bulk and taking away from that by adding LO recoil to all of your moves is usually not worth it. Not to mention that your most important moves (imo) are Ice Punch and ThunderPunch, since they are the ones that hit your normal would-be counters (Landorus-T, Jellicent, Skarmory, etc), and they get boosted more by Sheer Force than they do by Iron Fist.

We covered the LO recoil bit. Your STABs get no boost, so you're inducing recoil every match regardless. IMO, if Conk is going to run a set like that, he might as well go with an ability that boosts all of his moves. Fun fact, Drain Punch -> Mach is a guaranteed kill (after SR; even without, you'd have to roll minimum TWICE to miss the KO) on a Garchomp switch-in with Iron Fist.

 

[Arcticblast]

We covered the LO recoil bit. Your STABs get no boost, so you're inducing recoil every match regardless. IMO, if Conk is going to run a set like that, he might as well go with an ability that boosts all of his moves. Fun fact, Drain Punch -> Mach is a guaranteed kill (after SR; even without, you'd have to roll minimum TWICE to miss the KO) on a Garchomp switch-in with Iron Fist.

And in the process you take 45% damage from LO recoil and Rough Skin damage (Drain Punch healing goes before Rough Skin and LO), whereas you could have taken merely 12.5% if you just SF Ice Punched it on the switch.

 

[SJCrew]

No. In that example, we're using Drain Punch against a Pokemon Conkeldurr is supposed to defeat, and he takes out a very bulky Pokemon switching in without setup or giving it a chance to react. Garchomp is not necessarily a Conkeldurr counter, but if he were to switch in on the Sheer Force set successfully, he'd force the Conkeldurr out.

The point of the example is that with Iron Fist, you're getting more damage out of your STABs, which is a good thing, considering they're the safest moves to use in most situations, and reduce your need to rely on coverage moves or prediction to beat checks.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm siding with SF being better. You do more damage against the usually bulky Pokemon you're hitting with the elemental punches, not taking damage predicting those threats, and not really losing anything except something dumb like an OHKO on physically defensive Ferro with Drain Punch (too lazy to calc because phone but I'm guessing it can net that kill)

You don't really lose anything and gain lots of guaranteed KOs you otherwise could miss like Landy, Dnite, Jellicent, stuff like that, all while not taking self damage in the process.

 

[BurningMan]

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 257-304 (73.01 - 86.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 307-367 (87.21 - 104.26%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just saying...

SJ holds a good point it is imo alot better to get your stabs boosted as it makes it easier to spam them and eases up prediction/makes it unnecessary the power loss isn't that notable as you can see on these calcs:

Iron Fist:

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 309-367 (95.37 - 113.27%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 309-364 (85.12 - 100.27%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 359-426 (94.22 - 111.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 268-317 (66.5 - 78.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 369-437 (104.82 - 124.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 257-304 (66.92 - 79.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 192-227 (50 - 59.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 266-316 (101.52 - 120.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 208-247 (69.56 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2HKO with a Mach Punch followed)
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 322-382 (106.62 - 126.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 148-174 (49.49 - 58.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock + Mach Punch: 26.08 - 31.43% guaranteed KO after SR (you even get the chance to do this against the bulkier double booster version)
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 222-263 (64.72 - 76.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock + Mach Punch: 35.27 - 41.39% also a guaranteed KO even without SR
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 222-263 (54.95 - 65.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (very slight chance to 2HKO with Mach Punch)
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 260-307 (79.75 - 94.17%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 242-286 (82.31 - 97.27%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 192-227 (45.71 - 54.04%) -- 54.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sheer Force:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 338-398 (104.32 - 122.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 335-395 (92.28 - 108.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.67 - 122.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 291-343 (72.2 - 85.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 400-473 (113.63 - 134.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 278-330 (72.39 - 85.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 161-191 (41.92 - 49.73%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 222-263 (84.73 - 100.38%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (58.52 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no chance to OHKO with a follow up Mach Punch)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 354-416 (117.21 - 137.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 187-220 (46.28 - 54.45%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 218-257 (66.87 - 78.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 203-239 (69.04 - 81.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 161-191 (38.33 - 45.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Underlined means you miss or cannot guarantee a KO where you could with the other ability while bold means that you can get/guarantee the KO with the mentioned ability.
Looking at the calcs you can see that Iron Fist offers you some more KOs you can get with just your stabs which is good because you don't need to predict a coverage move to get the KO in exchange you lose the ability to guarantee the KO on Dragonite and Tentacruel, but still have a high chance to do so. It also boosts up mach Punch which can be crucial for late game sweeping/revenge killing especially for something as slow as Conkeldurr.
Sheer Force is nice as you won't suffer LO recoil when using the coverage moves which is useful to conserve Conkeldurrs bulk and one day you might even fool one poor soul into thinking you run Choice Band (unlikely as it is a uncommon set no one uses), but ultimatly you want and will use Drain Punch/mach punch alot more than as spamming your stab moves is the safest thing to do most of the time.


Edit: this post looked alot smaller in the editor...
Edit2: well hide tags help

 

[Yuttt]

Ummm, why would you use drain punch on some of those you listed, such as Politoed, Breloom, or Hippowdon? The only calcs that make sense on IF being better than SF are Jirachi and maybe Rotom.
Also, I believe one of the main reasons Sheer Force is better is because of the lack of LO recoil damage, making it stay around for longer. I doubt many things you use Drain punch on would stay in very long, like Ferrothorn wouldn't.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I'm quite surprised Lucario is so low: SD Lucario is REALLY dangerous especially because of extremespeed(+ 2 LO Extremespeed hurts)

Well, Terrakion's CB Close Combat has more power than a 2+ Lucario Extremespeed. (120 base power x 1.5 STAB) > ( 80 base power x 2 Swords Dance). Not to mention that Terrakion has a higher attack stat and more speed. Also Scizor's 2+ Bullet Punch is usually better since he has a higher base attack and a 90 base power on his Bullet Punch (40 x 1.5 Technician x 1.5 STAB), not to mention Scizor has superior bulk. To me, Scizor has the advantage in its priority attack.

I suppose the only advantage Lucario has over Scizor is that its STAB Close Combat is more powerful due to STAB and higher base power than Technician Bug Bite by about 20%, but he would have to take a hit into order to use it against a faster foe (and using an Adamant nature slows down Lucario) and the prospect of him surviving that hit is quite dubious as he has pathetic bulk (which makes it more difficult to find opportunities to set-up) and he may have used Close Combat previously. Also, Terrakion has Close Combat too.

 

[superstar]

Whoa whoa whoa

Well, Terrakion's CB Close Combat has more power than a 2+ Lucario Extremespeed. (120 base power x 1.5 STAB) > ( 80 base power x 2 Swords Dance). Not to mention that Terrakion has a higher attack stat and more speed. Also Scizor's 2+ Bullet Punch is usually better since he has a higher base attack and a 90 base power on his Bullet Punch (40 x 1.5 Technician x 1.5 STAB), not to mention Scizor has superior bulk. To me, Scizor has the advantage in its priority attack.

I suppose the only advantage Lucario has over Scizor is that its STAB Close Combat is more powerful due to STAB and higher base power than Technician Bug Bite by about 20%, but he would have to take a hit into order to use it against a faster foe (and using an Adamant nature slows down Lucario) and the prospect of him surviving that hit is quite dubious as he has pathetic bulk (which makes it more difficult to find opportunities to set-up) and he may have used Close Combat previously. Also, Terrakion has Close Combat too.

Whoa whoa whoa. Lucario is NOT outclassed by Scizor whatsoever. First of all Extremespeed is much better than Bullet Punch because Normal hits a lot more things neutrally. Most of the things that resist it are either slow steel-types, all of which are slaughtered by Close Combat, or Gengar/Tyranitar/Terrakion, all of which fall to a +2 Bullet Punch, or Jellicent, which dies to Crunch. You do have to choose between two of Lando-t/Gliscor, Jellicent, and Gengar/ScarfTar/Terrakion beating you, but compared to Scizor, Lucario is much harder to wall because of Close Combat.

Lucario can set up against choice-locked Pursuits, choice locked Draco Meteors, choiced Ice moves (it makes a great partner to DDNite or Latios), as well as against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Not really sure why you are comparing a CB STAB move to a LO priority move, but w/e.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Whoa whoa whoa


Whoa whoa whoa. Lucario is NOT outclassed by Scizor whatsoever. First of all Extremespeed is much better than Bullet Punch because Normal hits a lot more things neutrally. Most of the things that resist it are either slow steel-types, all of which are slaughtered by Close Combat, or Gengar/Tyranitar/Terrakion, all of which fall to a +2 Bullet Punch, or Jellicent, which dies to Crunch. You do have to choose between two of Lando-t/Gliscor, Jellicent, and Gengar/ScarfTar/Terrakion beating you, but compared to Scizor, Lucario is much harder to wall because of Close Combat.

Lucario can set up against choice-locked Pursuits, choice locked Draco Meteors, choiced Ice moves (it makes a great partner to DDNite or Latios), as well as against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Not really sure why you are comparing a CB STAB move to a LO priority move, but w/e.

I'd rather not compare 2 things that just happen to have similar sweeping movesets, you really can't compare scizor V lucario, they are played so much differently, though I'd rather use scizor because the SE on terrakion, ttar, and neutral on a lot of different shit is way too good in this meta to pass up imo, but that's because scizor fits my playstyle better more than anything

 

[ogasian]

I'd rather not compare 2 things that just happen to have similar sweeping movesets, you really can't compare scizor V lucario, they are played so much differently, though I'd rather use scizor because the SE on terrakion, ttar, and neutral on a lot of different shit is way too good in this meta to pass up imo, but that's because scizor fits my playstyle better more than anything

Dat 69 reply tho. Anyway, Lucario is, IMO, just too hard to set up with. No doubt it is a threat once set up, but what can it set up on? Also, Terrak wrecks its ass and Keldeo can tank a +2 E speed and OHKo back with secret sword. Bullet Punch leaves it walled by too many things, so yeah.

Edit: I was just quoting your post because it was the 69 th.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

a debate about lucario in the usage topic? is it that time of the month again already?

On sun: Stealth Rocks are sun's main problem. I don't care how many successful Sun teams you've made without Spinners, but a Stealth Rock weakness is the shittiest thing to have when you're a weather starter and constantly need to switch in and out to keep your weather up. You don't see Tyranitar running Sandstorm or Politoed running Rain Dance because they aren't Stealth Rock weak. Once you realize how much better Sun is on the Rockless ladder, you'll realize what Sun's main problem is.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Not really sure why you are comparing a CB STAB move to a LO priority move, but w/e.

It's really simple: Terrakion simply has more power even without a turn of set-up; if the opponent does not have a Scarf, Terrakion can hit harder and faster since it outspeeds most unboosted OU Pokemon. Terrakion has 108 Speed while Lucario uses ExtremeSpeed as its primary priority attacking move to circumvent its relatively low speed.

 

[newtonja]

Uh haxorus is completely down and out, I think he should drop to uu now.
By the way I think conkeldurr is a completely underrated pokemon and I think it deserves a bit more love. it is great at stopping sweeps. But it can 't really sweep