Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Dece1t]

The funny thing is that in these paste two nights, I've played or watched (mostly played) about thirty high ladder games, and can guarantee you that I did not come across a single Bug team in all of those games. :/

Than I'd call you a lucky duck. Because everything I come on the ladder, I run into them at least every 3 games or more.

Hi my name is Wyv and just this morning i went into my bathroom and saw cockroaches everywhere..that's when I realized these weren't cockroaches but genesects, and nomatter how much we all hate it and try to get rid of it, no matter how much fire type moves you put on that team and the amount of hours you spent spamming kaiser for one of his god forsaken teams..it all went to waste. Because that was the day when your so called op pokemon skills utterly failed your generic pokemon ass, and your heatran that you copy and pasted that morning...was lying on the ground..ohko'd by a techno blast mofoin extinct cockroach. This was the day when you went on the forums..but nobody heard your plea as they focused on getting rid of mother fucking birds, before you know it in your casual stroll up the ladder you find yourself fighting genesect after genesect, bug after bug and before you know it you discover yourself in a horrifying situation...your.gyarados.is.ded and when you looked around just to see rocks floating around you and the pest from the past is killing all your pokes. Now your running back down ladder street seeing bugs..more bugs than birds, omg there are mother fucking bugs everywhere. Now you are at your desk in the monotype room finding ways to stop it, searching far and low for pokemon to use..but that's when you realize..this pokemon can run band, specs, life orb, scarf, and even set up with over 15 viable moves to use...you quickly run to the forum to discover that mega altaria is about to be banned, such an event would only make bug more used to counter the upccoming usage spring of dark, this would make the bugs around you go to dangerously high levels! Not even pesticide would work as poor grass users discover that a type that beats them 70% of the time is about to emerge in more forces than ever before...you run to the forums to make 1 last plea, another calc! Anything at all..but not 1 word was read as the monotype staff skips over to the next post.

xD Thanks for perking up my morning wyv <3

I do believe Zard X should be suspected first as it was voted the next suspect. Looking at it from any perspective, this isn't bugs first time having highest usage. Its dominated the meta for quite a while (even if it wasn't #1). However, the meta has learned to deal with this. Teams have been shaped around to deal with Gene and Mega Pinsir, and is continually adjusting. That's why i think Zard X needs to be suspected first, as its continually a dominating force. And while it has been for a long time, many teams still have tremendous trouble dealing with it.

Only reason I'm for looking at Genesect first over Zard X is the fact that we're looking at Altaria rn as we speak, so if that gets banned from flying (which tbh I can imagine will happen), and then look at Zard X, I think that's too much for 1 type to handle in a matter of a month or less. Bug rn is everywhere, as Wyv sarcastically pointed out, to the point where it gets very boring to see constantly, and they're basically completely and utterly dominating the meta. I'm not saying don't look at Zard X its fine, I'm saying wait a bit and give flying a break.

 

[truedrew]

How about we have a dual suspect test? suspect both gen + pinsir AND zardx and have different reqs for each?

also flying can be successful without zard x as has been discussed 2 infinity before. Not to sound redundant, but PK-Kaisers balanced flying team in the .st is a mega gyara team and i can say as a non flying users i reached my reqs with it so yeah flying is pretty well adjusted as is so there is nothing like "impossible to handle"

 

[Tyke]

How about we have a dual suspect test? suspect both gen + pinsir AND zardx and have different reqs for each?

also flying can be successful without zard x as has been discussed 2 infinity before. Not to sound redundant, but PK-Kaisers balanced flying team in the .st is a mega gyara team and i can say as a non flying users i reached my reqs with it so yeah flying is pretty well adjusted as is so there is nothing like "impossible to handle"

I think the point of doing one suspect at a time is to see how the meta adjusts afterwards.

 

[thesecondbest]

Just because flying can be successful without zard-X does not mean Zard-X is not broken. It just proves that it is ok to ban things, as types will always be resilient. Zard-X will be the next suspect; that's what the tier leaders decided. Bug's win rate is fairly low (52% only) and its only green matchups are Grass, a type with many bad matchups, Poison, a type with many bad matchups, Ice, a type with many bad matchups, and Rock, a type with... many bad matchups. Bug attracts usage because it is an HO, easy to use type. but it only dominates the lower tier types. It isn't over centralizing at all- Victini is the most used mon on psychic already. Stop complaining about losing to genesect and asking for it to be banned; there are tons of mons that innately tech against bug but function on their own.

 

[Acast]

Just because flying can be successful without zard-X does not mean Zard-X is not broken. It just proves that it is ok to ban things, as types will always be resilient. Zard-X will be the next suspect; that's what the tier leaders decided. Bug's win rate is fairly low (52% only) and its only green matchups are Grass, a type with many bad matchups, Poison, a type with many bad matchups, Ice, a type with many bad matchups, and Rock, a type with... many bad matchups. Bug attracts usage because it is an HO, easy to use type. but it only dominates the lower tier types. It isn't over centralizing at all- Victini is the most used mon on psychic already. Stop complaining about losing to genesect and asking for it to be banned; there are tons of mons that innately tech against bug but function on their own.

He was saying that Flying can be successful without Zard X as a response to Stun, who made the argument that Flying should be left alone after Altaria's suspect. Truedrew is agreeing with you.

Also, the Council has decided nothing regarding the next suspect as far as I know. I really doubt that they'll go down the list of their last vote and suspect each thing in order base on that one vote that happened a month ago or more. It just wouldn't be logical. What would make way more sense is for them to do a new vote for each new suspect. That way the suspects will be decided based on their current opinions and views, not what they thought in the past.

General comment directed at no one in particular:
As far as the next suspect goes, it's not even our decision so I'm not sure if arguing about it would do anything, but I'd be perfectly content with either Zard X or Genesect. It's still a bit early for Hoopa-U.

 

[Lilymoding]

okok so it kind of looks like the thread is turning back in the direction of Genesect. I thought i gave a pretty convincing argument for its ban last time, and it doesn't look like anything came out of it, so I think i'm just gonna summarize it here. Ill probably put in the original post, under like a hide or something idk.

Ok so basically, after looking through Genesects moves, this thing has 17 viable moves to choose from. A classic counterargument could be "Well latios has a lot of moves, why isn't it banned?" Well frankly, while latios may have a lot of moves, it doesn't have the same kind of movepool. Genesect can run a mixed set with little to no reprecussions. Download gives it a free band/specs on switch-in, and with 120/120 stats it never really gets particularly weak in a certain aspect, as when you look at things like Infernape or Latios, Latios may run equake for heatran but its frankly not as dangerous overall, and infernape isn't as strong as genesect, along with having a stat relatively nerfed in terms of power due to the nature of EVs. With the download boost, this fault is almost irrelevant. Genesect can pick a type that it wants to apply heavy pressure on, maybe a type that the rest of the team struggles with, and slide right through it. Bug has the utilities to facilitate an easy late game sweep from genesect, and all genesect needs to do is pick a type it want's to beat.

Not only does this give it a massive advantage, but when the opponent is trying to think of a switch-in to genesect when it can have 17 different moves, you usually end up having to sack a pokemon just to figure out it's set, which already leaves you -1 before the game even starts. This same argument came up in the Greninja ban iirc, and i don't think it should be overlooked now.

If we look at the handy dandy monotype stats, Bug is standing at a clean 10.6% usage. Last time something got over 10% usage was flying, and we nerfed that. Looks like we have a new champ, shouldn't we be taking a closer look at it?

This post serves solely to spark more serious discussion on the topic because I feel that having something so unpredictable and powerful on a team that you can custom tailor to hit most any type is a problem. The same thing happened with Greninja (who is arguably better, that's up to you how much you value Protean vs Download), which eventually got banned.

Here is my old post if anyone want's a more detailed explanation of what i said.

Hide

Genesect, genesect, Genesect.....

Oh, my dear little Genesect, with your surplus of available and viable moves... Blaze Kick, Bug Buzz, Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Extremespeed, Flamethrower, Flash Cannon, Techno Blast with Douse Drive if you're real, Giga Drain, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Iron Head, Psychic, U-Turn, Thunderbolt, X-Scissor, Zen Headbutt.

17 different viable attacks at it's disposal. 17. Not to mention Download makes any combination of sets a possibility.

Lets remark back to the Greninja thread, a big argument (made by myself as well, explaining why I'm taking the time out of my boring life to type this out) was that it had the movepool to demolish any type it set out for. Have a problem against Dragon? Iron Head, Ice Beam, U-Turn, Extremespeed. For the following calcs, I'll act like Genesect got the wrong Download boost, to try and give the most advantage to the other team:

54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 222-264 (74.2 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 460-544 (128.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 97-115 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 236-278 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 99-117 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 103-123 (26.3 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 142-168 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 86-102 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 19.3% chance to 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 124-147 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 180-214 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hydreigon: 220-260 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 204-240 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragon has two switch-ins to Genesect, Kyurem-B and Goodra. Goodra OHKOs with flamethrower (do i really need to give you the calc for this) and Kyurem Black can 2hko with Fusion Bolt (56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 161-190 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). HOWEVER something to note is that Both of these can get easily worn down with rocks, U-Turn and Volc to tank/set-up on Goodra. Either way, it doesnt take long to completely clean up with Genesect, and Bug has plenty enough support to back Genesect (see Volcarona, Mega Sciz, Mega Pinsir, etc).

Is Water getting you down? Do your volcs keep getting bopped by the occasional Waterfall? Have no fear, Tbolt EBall Bug Buzz Genesect! Say goodbye to any of those pesky Gastrodons, Gyarados, Azumarill, and many more!

252 SpA Genesect Energy Ball vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Genesect Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Gastrodon: 340-404 (79.8 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 372-440 (112.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
~~in return~~
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 256-303 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
~~keep in mind you outspeed a plus 1 megados if you're scarf (which 66.8% are), so it can't set up on you~~
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 229-270 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Genesect can prepare for most types that Bug is having trouble against, with no problem at all. This massive movepool offers a lot of dangerous situations, where you don't know what you're opponent is packing because there is just so much one could run. This could end up with the player having to sack a mon just to figure out what set Genesect has, and then plan accordingly, but after that point you're already -1 and at a disadvantage.

Keep in mind all of those calcs were done without download in play, if Genesect gets the boost things are gonna be a lot worse.
In any case, Bug has the team support to facilitate a sweep of their choice with Genesect, and the opponent can't plan against it because it's set is relatively ambiguous at the start of the match. friends I don's know about you but this is what I call problem.exe

besides we called Flying into question when it got over 10% usage, and bug is standing at a CLEAN 9.21%. It's getting close friends

plz lik & fit teh powah
none of these were calced with HP Fuk ur shit
no animals were harmed in the making of this post

 

[Kammi]

okok so it kind of looks like the thread is turning back in the direction of Genesect. I thought i gave a pretty convincing argument for its ban last time, and it doesn't look like anything came out of it, so I think i'm just gonna summarize it here. Ill probably put in the original post, under like a hide or something idk.

Ok so basically, after looking through Genesects moves, this thing has 17 viable moves to choose from. A classic counterargument could be "Well latios has a lot of moves, why isn't it banned?" Well frankly, while latios may have a lot of moves, it doesn't have the same kind of movepool. Genesect can run a mixed set with little to no reprecussions. Download gives it a free band/specs on switch-in, and with 120/120 stats it never really gets particularly weak in a certain aspect, as when you look at things like Infernape or Latios, Latios may run equake for heatran but its frankly not as dangerous overall, and infernape isn't as strong as genesect, along with having a stat relatively nerfed in terms of power due to the nature of EVs. With the download boost, this fault is almost irrelevant. Genesect can pick a type that it wants to apply heavy pressure on, maybe a type that the rest of the team struggles with, and slide right through it. Bug has the utilities to facilitate an easy late game sweep from genesect, and all genesect needs to do is pick a type it want's to beat.

Not only does this give it a massive advantage, but when the opponent is trying to think of a switch-in to genesect when it can have 17 different moves, you usually end up having to sack a pokemon just to figure out it's set, which already leaves you -1 before the game even starts. This same argument came up in the Greninja ban iirc, and i don't think it should be overlooked now.

If we look at the handy dandy monotype stats, Bug is standing at a clean 10.6% usage. Last time something got over 10% usage was flying, and we nerfed that. Looks like we have a new champ, shouldn't we be taking a closer look at it?

This post serves solely to spark more serious discussion on the topic because I feel that having something so unpredictable and powerful on a team that you can custom tailor to hit most any type is a problem. The same thing happened with Greninja (who is arguably better, that's up to you how much you value Protean vs Download), which eventually got banned.

Here is my old post if anyone want's a more detailed explanation of what i said.

I feel that, first of all, Greninja isnt just *arguably* better, but obviously superior due to 1. protean (gives you essentially the download boost in both directions from auto-STAB) 2. speed tier and 3. the versatility that comes with protean, i.e. allowing you to gain resistances and immunities to outwit your opponent (using Shadow Sneak to evade damage from a fighting move, etc). Obviously most of the community agrees with me on this since Greninja is banned and Genesect is not, for now.

Secondly, something I've been thinking about lately has me a little concerned. The top 3-4 types are essentially just cycling who is on top based on nerfs and buffs as they come. Banning Zapdos lessened Flying's usage, and then Bug became a threat. Probably, by banning Genesect, this trend will continue by seeing either Psychic or Dark on top of the metagame, which will have people calling for a Hoopa-U suspect, and then maybe Flying will rise back up and Zard X will come under the microscope, etc, etc until we've banned a ton of mons that aren't necessarily that broken just to try to keep types balanced. Now, this isn't to say that Genesect doesn't deserve a look, since it's obviously Uber for a reason and can put a lot of pressure on certain types, but what I'm trying to say is that if a mon like Genesect was on a type like Rock, people would probably be calling for Zard X to be banned instead, which goes to show we value the power of the type as a whole rather than actually valuing whether the mon is broken enough to be unhealthy for the metagame.

This might be a philosophy that is worth having in Monotype, but it just seems a bit redundant to me. Some types will always be better than others. Flying, Psychic, Steel, Bug all have many more options than types like Grass or Electric. It's somewhat useless to ban mons just to make the type's usage go down, as people will just jump to whatever is next on their list of "OP Types" and continue making peaks. Like Acast stated previously, the top types are rising in usage as the bottom types fall; but really, would banning Genesect make Bug users use Rock or Ice or Ghost instead? People that don't want to deal with Bug after a Genesect ban would probably just go to Flying or Psychic, and this is the way it will continue indefinitely.

Actually after complaining about all of this, I have no ideas on how to fix it. So sorry this post is a little bit pointless.

TL;DR This post doesn't really have anything to do with Genesect specifically so if you don't care about ban philosophy you can skip it.

 

[scpinion]

There are still a couple votes to go, but there are enough to reach a verdict in the Altarianite suspect.

Global Ban: 26
Flying Only: 9
Dragon Only: 1
Do Not Ban: 3
Missing: 3
Total: 42

Flying Ban: 35/42 (83.3%)
Dragon Ban: 27/42 (64.3%)

Altarianite will be globally banned from Monotype.

votes

 

[perish song me]

Thought I would chime in on genesect, please be gentle :)

I've heard a bunch of arguments for banning genesect. They generally fall under the categories 1) genesect beats x type too easily 2) bug is too strong and 3) genesect is too diverse.

Personally, I don't think the first 2 are good reasons to ban genesect. Let's just take a look at some specific matchups.

Other bug teams-Genesect is definitely very important in this matchup, but since both teams have it it isn't unbalanced either way, unless one has flamethrower and the other does not.

Psychic-Because genesect's strength is coverage, it's not actually that broken in bug vs psychic, or at least not compared to either bugs. Obviously its bug stabs will hurt but so will those of other pokes such as hera and volc. Genesect can kill slowbro better than others and the steel typing is nice but as far as stab goes genesect may or may not be good vs psychic, depending on its set, but its replacement bug could be as good or better.

Flying-In my experience this matchup leans towards flying, with sending genesect in on skarmory being bug's only way of winning. Genesect threatens almost anything on flying but in return is slower and when charizard comes in on it bug has a tough time switching in. There's a lot of depth to this matchup right now, especially the hazards, but it is in flying's favor with genesect being bug's strongest weapon, so genesect is healthy in this one. Also, while nothing wants to switch in, plenty can outspeed once it's in.

Fighting-Genesect is ok in this matchup but doesn't really define it. It does have some value as a terrakion check though. In this instance there actually isn't a coverage move that will really help.

Water-I'm gonna split water into swift swim offense, balanced, and stall (ie cancer, thank thimo not me though).

Swift swimmers tend to outspeed and destroy genesect with water moves, but outside of rain genesect with energy ball generally means something will die, since they don't have sap sipper azu. I think that's ok though since offensive teams shouldn't be judged based on their defensive potential-it's fine if nothing can switch into genesect as long as everything can kill it, and rain boosted hydro pumps will. Thunderbolt is balanced in this matchup because of swampert. Energy ball is scary but it's worth noting politoed gives a +atk boost with its 100 sp def.

Balanced isn't very happy about energy ball genesect. Unlike swift swim, it probably can't OHKO genesect, but like swift swim, it probably doesn't have sap sipper azu. Gyarados is a decent check though, and again thunderbolt is taken care of by swampert. Genesect with both thunderbolt and energy ball are rare. ("but I don't know what set it is till it kills me" ill get to that later)

Stall needs the check imo, typically the only thing bug has that really threatens stall is mega pinsir and lanturn/azumarill do a good job of checking it.

Steel-While bug has only a 40% win rate vs steel, I think it would be higher if people used genesect effectively. Douse genesect can kill literally everything on steel in one or two hits (sp def heatran can take a techno blast, especially if it gave genesect an atk boost). Once heatran is removed flamethrower/volcarona can win the game for bug. I think this is how it should be because bug's other sweepers aren't great vs steel. Steel has rocks and bisharp for defog/doublade for spin so it can cripple bug and has skarm/doublade to stop pinsir or hera sweeps, plus bisharp scares away sticky webs, so this matchup is like flying in that bug has a disadvantage and genesect is its only weapon. btw people, try douse plate :D

Dragon-I'm not too sure about this one. Ice beam tears dragon lacking goodra/kyurem a new one. Obviously the steel typing is also nice for taking outrages and stuff. HP fire checks but does not counter. I don't play much dragon so idk about how it will be without mega altaria but still pretty sure dragon won't have any reliable switch ins to genesect. Also, the rest of the matchup isn't too bad for bug either, so that justification is gone.
pt if you have flam
Ground-Something nice is the perfect 50% winrate. However, that doesn't guarantee your bug vs ground game is a 50% chance to win: it depends on genesect's set and the enemy team's counters.

Against generic ground (mega chomp) ice beam will hit everything and u turn lets genesect bounce off gastro/seismitoad, which is nice. However, the switch ins all fear a scald burn and may struggle with hippowdown or get revenged by excadrill. It's balanced unless genesect has energy ball, in which case nothing on generic ground can switch in.

Against stun's camerupt ground it's a different story. There is flat out nothing on ground that can shrug off a fire blast from mega camerupt. For its part, camerupt takes anything but douse techno blast. You may have noticed a pattern by now-it depends on if genesect has the coverage move it needs or not.

Dark-Similar to the dynamic with heatran vs steel, douse genesect wears down ttar until volc can sweep, genesect is also good as bug's switch in to mandibuzz. Like psychic, genesect's stab bug moves hurt, but other mons hurt more.

Normal-honestly does very little in this matchup, chansey/pory2 can't be exploited through coverage and you are even in danger of getting reverse swept by ditto if you have flamethrower

Fire-So traditionally fire beats bugs weak to it like genesect but if you somehow get rocks/webs up douse genesect can apply a lot of pressure since it can kill torkoal, but I don't think anybody says genesect is op because it beats fire. Even if you do have douse the sun makes it pretty weak.

Fairy-If it has scarfed steel stab fairy is in trouble, klefki and azumarill might be able to do something but certain sets could definitely pose a problem for fairy.

Ghost-Genesect doesn't have coverage for ghost, ghost users correct me but people don't say gene should be banned cause of ghost.

Electric-Unlike other bugs, genesect threatens zapdos and rotom w. But it's not exactly broken vs electric.

Grass-Grass has nothing that can switch into genesect, mega vena is fine once it's in though. But tbh bug is gonna destroy grass regardless so grass isn't that relevant to genesect being banned or not.

Ice-Ice does struggle with bug and genesect makes it worse, I'll admit. I haven't played this matchup enough to say for sure. However, if we are going to ban everything good vs ice we will end up banning half the meta.

Poision-immunity to poison doesn't mean much, but it's nice that it outspeeds nidoking and threatens everybody except mega vena. Not matchup defining op though.

Rock-Bug vs rock is actually a very interesting matchup atm, I think either can win with a good team. Without genesect this matchup would be wayyy in rock's favor.

OK, so those were the matchups, I admit I got bored towards the end but oh well. I think genesect is certainly important to some matchups depending on its set, but a lot of the matchups it impacts heavily would be hard for bug without genesect.

That brings me to the second argument-bug is too strong atm and needs a nerf. Looking at winrates and popularity bug does seem strong, but I'll let others decide if it's too strong and if genesect is the deserved nerf.

So the final point is its diversity. This is the most convincing argument. Throughout the matchups I've said gene beats x if it has y, it beats a if it has b, etc. And so while it doesn't have 4 overpowered moves that make 1 broken set (although I love douse myself) it does have a bunch of strong moves that make it strong and unpredictable overall. That is, you don't know if genesect is going to hit you with a banded e speed or douse techno blast or u turn out or flamethrower or etc etc. And that list does go on a long time. The thing is, people make that argument but at the same time cry about how download gives it free +1. Well, if they downloaded you know if they got a physical or special boost, and judging by the context of when they sent it in you know what they want to do. I'm not saying it can't throw a nasty curveball at you but don't act like you automatically have to sacrifice a poke when it's sent in just to figure out what it will do, because you know already. That's not the challenge-the challenge is stopping it once you know its set, because if the set is good vs your type you are in trouble.

As far as 4 moveslot syndrome goes, genesect can threaten any type, but it can't threaten every type

 

[darkrai147]

This is gonna echo Kammi's last post a bit. I would disagree with the concept of banning solely for the purpose of nerfing the type it's on. There will always be types that stand out among the rest, and nerfing them all as they come up is not, in my opinion, the way to a healthy metagame. To me it makes more sense to look at what the specific pokemon can do on it's own, not what it does for a type or what support it has from other pokemon of this type. While Genesect is obviously is a great offensive presence, I do not think it is overpowered in the sense that it is unstoppable. It is very diverse but it also has 4 move slot syndrome, and it is in a sub par speed tier without a choice scarf, in which case it has pressure to not get into a bad position by being locked into a particular move (a good example being thunderbolt on a water team, it would lose momentum when Swampert or another ground type comes in). To me, Mega Pinsir is the mon on bug that very little can be done to stop. It has the bulk to SD on a good amount of the meta, it is pretty easy to set up a sweep against roughly half the types (Grass, Fighting, Water, Psychic, Fire, Dragon, etc.) The counters are few and far between and are limited to a handful of types (not every type has a skarmory).

TL;DR Yes genesect makes bug very good but pinsir is the broken mon

 

[Alexis Breeze]

ok i come back and i read all this gene nonsense lol. TBH I don't know why Genesect had to be unbanned in the first place. Having said that, it's not a "broken" mon but it is very very versatile. Bug usage is super high I agree, I disagree with ppl saying "it needs a nerf cuz its usage too high zomg". You guys seem to be getting too comfy with nerfs, like I feel 6 months from now there is gonna be 4 more bans lol. Usage is just that, % of ppl using a type over another one. Nothing else. If you didn't go to highschool or don't know how that works, lemme break it down for you. Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber ain't the best artists. "But Alexis, they sell the most records" see? that's what happens when you give numbers to people that don't get numbers in the first place (common strat used by politicians mind you). As a bug user I wouldn't mind seeing Genesect leaving but I'm not in favor of this "philosophy" of banning/nerfing a type just BECAUSE IT'S GETTING TOO HIGH IN USAGE. A ban should happen when something is clearly broken despite being used by only two users in the whole ladder. As an example look at Metagross in OU. Few months ago people were crying about him and it baaaaaarely stayed in OU. Now ask around to see if anyone thinks it's broken. What happened? Meta adapted, that's what happened.

 

[Lilymoding]

ok i come back and i read all this gene nonsense lol. TBH I don't know why Genesect had to be unbanned in the first place. Having said that, it's not a "broken" mon but it is very very versatile. Bug usage is super high I agree, I disagree with ppl saying "it needs a nerf cuz its usage too high zomg". You guys seem to be getting too comfy with nerfs, like I feel 6 months from now there is gonna be 4 more bans lol. Usage is just that, % of ppl using a type over another one. Nothing else. If you didn't go to highschool or don't know how that works, lemme break it down for you. Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber ain't the best artists. "But Alexis, they sell the most records" see? that's what happens when you give numbers to people that don't get numbers in the first place (common strat used by politicians mind you). As a bug user I wouldn't mind seeing Genesect leaving but I'm not in favor of this "philosophy" of banning/nerfing a type just BECAUSE IT'S GETTING TOO HIGH IN USAGE. A ban should happen when something is clearly broken despite being used by only two users in the whole ladder. As an example look at Metagross in OU. Few months ago people were crying about him and it baaaaaarely stayed in OU. Now ask around to see if anyone thinks it's broken. What happened? Meta adapted, that's what happened.

While I see where you're coming from, and I do see now thanks to posts by Kammi and Alexis Breeze that banning things because of usage is kinda futile in the grand scheme of things, i kinda disagree with your reasoning. One place where i think you fall short is when talking about the numbers, how "Usage is just how many people use it nothing else". As true as that is, it has meaning behind it. There's a REASON why a ton of people use it. If someone used a team that was solely "oh this is a cool type lolz", with no real competitive merit, they would try to ladder, get through some matches, lose because their team isn't really competitively viable, get discouraged and give up. Once people find something good, they take it to ladder and win a lot, which causes others to say "Hey this team looks like it works really well, lets use that" which increases usage in the type, etc.

For example, take a look at smogon tiering. All tiering save Ubers BL BL2 BL3 etc are done by usage. However, if you take an OU team vs an NU team, the OU team is almost certainly going to win. This is because frankly people use good pokemon more. Usage is a testament to how good the pokemon/tier/type is. However, once usage is calculated and pokemon are seperated into their tiers, each tiers council determines if there are pokes that are just too good in that usage list, which get banned to the aforementioned Ubers, BL, etc (although that point has no real merit in this argument).

Usage isn't a perfect indicator of which mons are the best overall, but it gives a strong, yet somewhat vague clue which should be taken into consideration. It's one of the quickest and easiest ways of determining a possible mon for suspect, because if a team is so good that a shit ton of people are using it (I'm gonna exaggerate and say a majority, but you get what I'm trying to say), something fishy must be going on.

tl;dr usage has symbolism behind it and is more than just a number, but yeah lets not ban things solely because the type needs a nerf

 

[ed wins]

okok so it kind of looks like the thread is turning back in the direction of Genesect. I thought i gave a pretty convincing argument for its ban last time, and it doesn't look like anything came out of it, so I think i'm just gonna summarize it here. Ill probably put in the original post, under like a hide or something idk.

Ok so basically, after looking through Genesects moves, this thing has 17 viable moves to choose from. A classic counterargument could be "Well latios has a lot of moves, why isn't it banned?" Well frankly, while latios may have a lot of moves, it doesn't have the same kind of movepool. Genesect can run a mixed set with little to no reprecussions. Download gives it a free band/specs on switch-in, and with 120/120 stats it never really gets particularly weak in a certain aspect, as when you look at things like Infernape or Latios, Latios may run equake for heatran but its frankly not as dangerous overall, and infernape isn't as strong as genesect, along with having a stat relatively nerfed in terms of power due to the nature of EVs. With the download boost, this fault is almost irrelevant. Genesect can pick a type that it wants to apply heavy pressure on, maybe a type that the rest of the team struggles with, and slide right through it. Bug has the utilities to facilitate an easy late game sweep from genesect, and all genesect needs to do is pick a type it want's to beat.

Not only does this give it a massive advantage, but when the opponent is trying to think of a switch-in to genesect when it can have 17 different moves, you usually end up having to sack a pokemon just to figure out it's set, which already leaves you -1 before the game even starts. This same argument came up in the Greninja ban iirc, and i don't think it should be overlooked now.

If we look at the handy dandy monotype stats, Bug is standing at a clean 10.6% usage. Last time something got over 10% usage was flying, and we nerfed that. Looks like we have a new champ, shouldn't we be taking a closer look at it?

This post serves solely to spark more serious discussion on the topic because I feel that having something so unpredictable and powerful on a team that you can custom tailor to hit most any type is a problem. The same thing happened with Greninja (who is arguably better, that's up to you how much you value Protean vs Download), which eventually got banned.

Here is my old post if anyone want's a more detailed explanation of what i said.

Flying got nerfed not due to it's usage, but because Skarmory + Zados coupled with things like Gyarados, Gliscor, and Artiuno, who were very common at the time, were stupidly difficult to break for certain types. Genesect isn't broken and Bug does not require a nerf. Bug is an HO type, and it is very good due to it's coverage. Scizor can check and/or set up on Rock type threats. Almado/Volcarona/Heracross can handle Fire threats. Genesect can hande Flying threats. I'm not going to tl;dr this, as Alexis Breeze and I have both stated our opinions in previous comments that high usage does NOT mean that a type deserves a nerf. Will Bug require some sort of future suspect test? Maybe. However, rest assured that if it happens anytime soon, a Hoopa suspect test will also occur, as the usage of a type drops significantly after a nerf, and Psychic with Mega-Gardevoir to counter Dark will reign supreme. Once Hoopa gets banned purely for a nerf, Flying will reign surpreme, only to get Landorus banned for both types, which will make Water be the #1 used type, which will then get Mega-Gyarados banned. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Yes, I'm presenting illogical stereotypes cast upon the Smogon community. However, this is exactly how the Mono community acts when a type gets good. "X type is being spammed because it is good. Why isn't it nerfed yet?"

I do agree that Xzard deserves a ban/suspect. However, I can see the increase of Bug skyrocket once Xzard has been banned, unless it gets replaced by the lord Dragon Dance Mega-Charizard Y set

 

[thesecondbest]

okok so it kind of looks like the thread is turning back in the direction of Genesect. I thought i gave a pretty convincing argument for its ban last time, and it doesn't look like anything came out of it, so I think i'm just gonna summarize it here. Ill probably put in the original post, under like a hide or something idk.

Ok so basically, after looking through Genesects moves, this thing has 17 viable moves to choose from. A classic counterargument could be "Well latios has a lot of moves, why isn't it banned?" Well frankly, while latios may have a lot of moves, it doesn't have the same kind of movepool. Genesect can run a mixed set with little to no reprecussions. Download gives it a free band/specs on switch-in, and with 120/120 stats it never really gets particularly weak in a certain aspect, as when you look at things like Infernape or Latios, Latios may run equake for heatran but its frankly not as dangerous overall, and infernape isn't as strong as genesect, along with having a stat relatively nerfed in terms of power due to the nature of EVs. With the download boost, this fault is almost irrelevant. Genesect can pick a type that it wants to apply heavy pressure on, maybe a type that the rest of the team struggles with, and slide right through it. Bug has the utilities to facilitate an easy late game sweep from genesect, and all genesect needs to do is pick a type it want's to beat.

Not only does this give it a massive advantage, but when the opponent is trying to think of a switch-in to genesect when it can have 17 different moves, you usually end up having to sack a pokemon just to figure out it's set, which already leaves you -1 before the game even starts. This same argument came up in the Greninja ban iirc, and i don't think it should be overlooked now.

If we look at the handy dandy monotype stats, Bug is standing at a clean 10.6% usage. Last time something got over 10% usage was flying, and we nerfed that. Looks like we have a new champ, shouldn't we be taking a closer look at it?

This post serves solely to spark more serious discussion on the topic because I feel that having something so unpredictable and powerful on a team that you can custom tailor to hit most any type is a problem. The same thing happened with Greninja (who is arguably better, that's up to you how much you value Protean vs Download), which eventually got banned.

Here is my old post if anyone want's a more detailed explanation of what i said.

OK let's go through the points
1. It can't run all the moves at the same time so it can't break through common cores. Like on ground, unless you use the terrible Douse Drive set, you can't beat Camel, and you need energy ball, a very niche move, to beat great mons like Gastro. The only type I have played that it threatens is Psychic when it clicks U-Turn, but any bug type threatens psychic in that way. Scizor doesn't need a ban. Flying has the monster Zard-X still. (I've played Fairy, Flying, Bug, Psychic, Ground, Dragon, and Normal fyi)
2. Yes download gives it a band or specs boost but on the scarf sets it's basically u-turn and three special attacks. Maybe it has iron head but even my fairy teams can deal with that. Plus base 100 scarfers outspeed it and those are the common ones. E.G. victini.
3. Usage does not mean it is banworthy. People use Bug because it is easy to use. That's like saying Hunter is broken in Hearthstone, but Patron, Freeze Mage, and Handlock are the best decks. They take skill to pilot.
4. Greninja was way better because it din't need to be scarfed to outspeed stuff. It could actually switchup moves, so that's why it would sweep you. Genesect is mostly scarfed, even on Webs teams. It can't break through its counters by switching moves.
5. Honestly, I think Genesect is good for the tier because it gives Bug versatility. It allows it to do well against certain types which makes the meta less type based. Pinsir, even though I don't think it's an issue, is the one that should be banned because it shits on certain types much like Talonflame. Genesect is healthy for the tier. Flying was nerfed because of the core, not because of the usage.
Tl;dr genesect is not greninja, it does not need to be banned. Why is it banned from OU again?

 

[ed wins]

May I divert for a bit and thank scpinion and the council for starting our own RMT showcase? My RMT actually made it to the voting stages for the RMT of the Week for Smogon, and i think that it makes this community look great. Having one of our OM teams stand its ground with nothing but OU teams seems pretty neat to me

Hooray for Monotype!

 

[Acast]

May I divert for a bit and thank scpinion and the council for starting our own RMT showcase? My RMT actually made it to the voting stages for the RMT of the Week, and i think that it makes this community look great. Having one of our OM teams stand ground work nothing but OU teams seems pretty neat to me

Hooray for Monotype!

Not that I want to take away from the Council, but the showcase was entirely scpinion's idea and it's been a great success so far. I encourage you all to look into it and submit teams if you're feeling up to it. Instructions for submitting can be found here http://monotypeps.weebly.com/team-showcase.html

 

[scpinion]

To go w/ the Monotype Team Showcase we're having a "Monotype Team of the Week". I'll be picking the first winner here soon so submit your team if you'd like to be recognized!

 

[Dece1t]

To go w/ the Monotype Team Showcase we're having a "Monotype Team of the Week". I'll be picking the first winner here soon so submit your team if you'd like to be recognized!

How's that gonna work? I noticed Ed's just got posted with mine, like if you win what happens and how are you gonna choose a winner?

 

[vanderlylic]

Monotype Tiering Philosophy

(credit: Nani Man)
The goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. When discussing a potentially broken Pokemon, please use the following list as a guide for what to look for.

1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum). For example, Talonflame is banned from Monotype because +1 Priority Brave Bird could sweep any team with a common weakness to Flying-type attacks.

2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky did this during their time in the metagame on Ice and Grass teams, respectively. These Pokemon enhanced the favorable matchups Ice and Grass had, while doing little to address the matchups the type struggled with.
We will not be un-banning Ubers, solely to make an underused type better.

3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. Some Pokemon have stats/abilities that are just too good for the Monotype metagame, such as Mega-Slowbro, Greninja, Mega-Metagross or Mega-Mawile.

4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. Aegislash is banned from Steel teams because of its role in the infamous "immunity core". Zapdos is banned from Flying teams for similar reasons.
Please think carefully about whether a specific core is broken.
Ask yourself: "Does it have weaknesses that are exploitable by a large portion of the metagame?"
The Eviolite twins on Normal teams (Porygon2 and Chansey) is a strong core that is not broken because they have a crippling weakness to Knock Off.
​

​

Can I just put this here again in case people have forgotten. All this talk of usage based bans is completely unfounded; nowhere can I read in that tiering philosophy should a pokemon be banned because of its type's usage. Nor has there ever been a ban in the past that was done due to type usage. Whatever the council decides to suspect next, once the metagame adjusts to M-Altaria ban and if more bans are required, will definitely not be based on type usage.

 

[scpinion]

How's that gonna work? I noticed Ed's just got posted with mine, like if you win what happens and how are you gonna choose a winner?

Criteria for winning are on the showcase page (there isn't really a set criteria). The winner's team will be featured at the top of the list as well as in the room intro.

 

[Dece1t]

Criteria for winning are on the showcase page (there isn't really a set criteria). The winner's team will be featured at the top of the list as well as in the room intro.

Alriggt, I got confused bc me and ed's both got accepted.

 

[Acast]

With all this talk of bans founded on type-usage, I just wanted to mention that I apologize for that. I was probably one of the people that started the whole "BUG IS TOO GOOD SO BAN GENESECT ALREADY!!! HARGLEBLARGENFUGINSHNOUZER!!!" thing. I'll admit that I'm still of the opinion that Genesect should probably eventually be banned, and maybe Mega Pinsir too, but I only say that because I think they might be too good in their own right. As others have said, we can't ban something just because its type is used a lot on the ladder. Bug isn't broken, it's just popular. As it stands, we really just have to let the meta adapt to it and hopefully the type will decline in popularity once more Bug checks rise in usage.

I'll admit I was probably a bit salty from seeing so many Bug teams on the ladder during the suspect test (it was the first time I've seriously laddered in a while) and I was getting sick of the lack of variety. I'm still worried about the fact that common types are rising in usage and uncommon types are becoming more rare, but there's not much we can do about that except let the metagame sort itself out while we continue to ban what is broken.

So again, sorry about that since I probably started all that nonsense on here. With that being said, I'm looking forward to the next suspect no matter what it is. I'm confident our Council will pick the right thing to put on the chopping block, even if it's not what I personally agree with.

PS: Speaking of the next suspect, would the Council be willing to tell us when they think that will happen? Zarel mentioned that the ladder will probably be reset again once the Official Ladder Tournament ends, and I was told by a moderator in the OLT room that it won't be ending for another 8 weeks. If we do another suspect before then, we'll have to time it so that it ends before those 8 weeks are up. I'm sure that's more than enough time if we get the next one started soon, but I'm just curious about the plan for the future.

 

[scpinion]

Kammi, and later others, bring up excellent points about the cyclic nature of the top types in our metagame and banning to nerf a type. Cycling the top types is a great thing, however I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't be doing this through bans every time. We're approaching (please notice those italics before you quote this and tell me I'm an idiot) a metagame that has most of the individually broken threats removed.

So, we're curious what you guys think about the concept of a Pokemon being broken because of team support (think about the Type-Only bans: Zapdos, Aegislash, Galladite, Genesect, etc.)? These are incredibly complex bans that go against many of the principles Smogon encourages in its tiering systems.
Do you think this philosophy is healthy?
If not, what would you suggest we change or how would you replace it? If so, why?

Are there other elements of the tiering philosophy you have qualms about? Why? What would you do about it?

The council has been discussing our tiering philosophy recently, so we want to get you guys opinions on it. It seems like a fitting time for such discussion to arise seeing as we just completed our first suspect test.

PS: Speaking of the next suspect, would the Council be willing to tell us when they think that will happen? Zarel mentioned that the ladder will probably be reset again once the Official Ladder Tournament ends, and I was told by a moderator in the OLT room that it won't be ending for another 8 weeks. If we do another suspect before then, we'll have to time it so that it ends before those 8 weeks are up. I'm sure that's more than enough time if we get the next one started soon, but I'm just curious about the plan for the future.

The council is currently discussing a number of different things. The tiering philosophy has been central to those discussions, so we're curious what you guys think about the above points. There are no set dates on anything, but we will take extra caution to avoid problems w/ the ladder reset.

 

[Dece1t]

Kammi, and later others, bring up excellent points about the cyclic nature of the top types in our metagame and banning to nerf a type. Cycling the top types is a great thing, however I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't be doing this through bans every time. We're approaching (please notice those italics before you quote this and tell me I'm an idiot) a metagame that has most of the individually broken threats removed.

So, we're curious what you guys think about the concept of a Pokemon being broken because of team support (think about the Type-Only bans: Zapdos, Aegislash, Galladite, Genesect, etc.)? These are incredibly complex bans that go against many of the principles Smogon encourages in its tiering systems.
Do you think this philosophy is healthy?
If not, what would you suggest we change or how would you replace it? If so, why?

Are there other elements of the tiering philosophy you have qualms about? Why? What would you do about it?

The council has been discussing our tiering philosophy recently, so we want to get you guys opinions on it. It seems like a fitting time for such discussion to arise seeing as we just completed our first suspect test.


The council is currently discussing a number of different things. The tiering philosophy has been central to those discussions, so we're curious what you guys think about the above points. There are no set dates on anything, but we will take extra caution to avoid problems w/ the ladder reset.

Tbh, the fact that teambuilding is more limited compared to ou, since there's a select # of mons for each type, your pretty much forced to do those types of bans. So, rly rly strong cores, ex, aegislash heatran genesect, threatened the rest of the meta greatly, and types like that became overall highly dominant and win rates were severely skewed. That comparing to now, we made a lot of progress, and every type (bar ice and rock rip) is very usable in the current metagame, which I'm rly glad for. As for Zapdos, tbh if Zard x is next on the suspect list, I wouldn't minfld considering Zapdos back on flying teams. All in all though, we should continue what we're doing, the goal is for a balanced and diverse meta.

 

[Kammi]

Kammi, and later others, bring up excellent points about the cyclic nature of the top types in our metagame and banning to nerf a type. Cycling the top types is a great thing, however I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't be doing this through bans every time. We're approaching (please notice those italics before you quote this and tell me I'm an idiot) a metagame that has most of the individually broken threats removed.

So, we're curious what you guys think about the concept of a Pokemon being broken because of team support (think about the Type-Only bans: Zapdos, Aegislash, Galladite, Genesect, etc.)? These are incredibly complex bans that go against many of the principles Smogon encourages in its tiering systems.
Do you think this philosophy is healthy?
If not, what would you suggest we change or how would you replace it? If so, why?

Are there other elements of the tiering philosophy you have qualms about? Why? What would you do about it?

The council has been discussing our tiering philosophy recently, so we want to get you guys opinions on it. It seems like a fitting time for such discussion to arise seeing as we just completed our first suspect test.


The council is currently discussing a number of different things. The tiering philosophy has been central to those discussions, so we're curious what you guys think about the above points. There are no set dates on anything, but we will take extra caution to avoid problems w/ the ladder reset.

Thanks for the official update scp! These are some pretty good questions in regards to tiering philosophies.

In terms of the type-specific bans, I agree with almost all of the ones so far except maybe Galladite (Zapdos created a monstrous defensive core that took little to no skill, Aegislash created the immunity core, Steel was dominating offensively with Genesect and also had a good switchin for threats with Heatran). Galladite was kind of rushed, in my opinion, and it wouldn't really be THAT bad but I also don't think it was un-broken enough to unban it now, if that makes any sense. I think the type-only ban philosophy is healthy in three cases only:

1. The pokemon creates an immunity core or a skill-less defensive core on one type, but presents no real threat on the other type due to lack of viable or ideal companions (Zapdos, Aegislash).
2. The pokemon pairs with one or more common pokemon on its type to create a skill-less offensive core (this is usually global bans anyways but it may be a case where there is some sort of other offensive support- can't really think of an example as there hasn't been a ban on this reasoning yet).
3. The pokemon is an offensive cannon that is extremely powerful on one of its types provided the team support / ability of its teammates to eliminate threats to it before it sets up or just proceeds to sweep (Genesect, Gallade (sort of)).

Moving on a bit, there is only one real qualm I have about the current tiering philosophy was mostly summarized in my original post. However, after reading posts following that, I would like to state that usage is a good INDICATOR that there may be a case of #1 or #2 (listed above) going on in the type (skill-less wins = used most on ladder), but it doesn't always mean the type needs a nerf. In the case of Bug, it's just a hyper-offensive type that has nice matchups against most of the other top types at the moment, and is also fun to use (surprise surprise, pokemon is actually something people do for fun). This is a pretty easy fix; instead of using USAGE ALONE as an argument to type-only ban something or nerf a type, you should support your argument further by providing any one of the three cases listed above.

Ex: Does Bug need a nerf? It has high usage, which is an indicator that there may be something more going on within the type that makes it more powerful than the others. There is no clear easy-to-use defensive core (there is really not even a defensive core in Bug). The top offensive pokemon (looking at #2) would be Mega Pinsir, Genesect, and Volcarona. I wouldn't say that any of these have stellar team support. Fire and Rock pretty much wreck all 3 of them, not like theres an immunity core (Bug has no real switchins to Fire moves when SR are up, and 'mons that reliably switch into Rock moves have no real reliable recovery, like Forretress). Defensive support on Bug for these three powerhouses is also limited, as stated before. After analyzing through all this, we can state that even though Bug has high usage, it does not need a type nerf, because there are definitely ways to defeat it- the type itself is not broken. Note/Continued -- The case would be different if Bug had some sort of viable fire immunity pokemon to use, like if Forretress or Volcarona had flash fire.

The issue of Genesect is a matter that I think requires us to think more in terms of global ban- an "is this pokemon too broken for our metagame?" style argument formatted in the original ways listed on the first post would probably be more applicable here. Genesect should not be banned solely because Bug's usage is too high.

TL;DR - Add 3 more possible criteria for type-specific bans to provide standard reasoning for nerfing a type and to prevent people from basing arguments solely on usage.

Edit: The second and third condition could also somewhat be combined, I just wanted to add an offensive core criterion since there is one for defensive cores.