edit: updated some of the Blaziken and MegaMence stuff, and added more to my reply to
Dream Eater Gengar, edited and added parts in
red.
I've been lurking in this thread for so long with no interest in posting, not because I don't care anymore but because I stopped playing for so long due to the reason that the metagame has been dull and boring in my opinion since we've been on the same slate for so long. We need to shake the meta, whether by banning or unbanning Pokemon.
So you want to ban or unban pokemon not to balance the meta, but rather to "shake it".
You talk about needing to change the meta by possibly banning pokemon, but according to you and
Articuno I not even the most broken (Mega Salamence) is deserving of a ban.
There's lot of Pokemon/Stuff discussed above but I'm going to elaborate about such reasoning.
Rumplestiltskin has mentioned an ''uber state'' that this meta falls under which I don't completely agree with, yes we might have ubers Pokemon but they don't contribute to the broken factor. And I don't think banning them would render the metagame healthy as it will fall in another void where it will continue in a dull state.
How could you possibly know with such accuracy how the meta will change after a bunch of bans? What is the "broken factor" in 1v1, and what does contribute to it? I'm trying to start a discussion of potentially broken pokes in 1v1 and you're deciding that they aren't, just because. Why would the meta be more dull if it had a wider diversity (which is what I'm arguing would happen in a non-Ubers setting) of available viable pokes?
In each metagame we have the OU Pokemon and the UU Pokemmon and we don't ban OU Pokemon just for the sake to make UU Pokemon appreciated and used, there's such thing called 1v1 UU that could be played via Challenge if bored of facing the same threats over and over again. But even with the presence of powerful top tier Pokemon in 1v1, UU Pokemon can still outshine them, example being that Jellicent can beat Zard X, or Clefable can beat Gyarados. This is the magic of 1v1 that you have to create sets that has a great matchup against most of the metagame taking into consideration low tier and top tier Pokemon. Yes, I find 1v1 dull to the same Pokemon repeating themselves on ladder but No, I don't agree banning them would solve the problem and if people think such Pokemon are broken and destroy their teams with ease, well we need to think outside the box. There's plenty of Pokemon in 1v1 with niches that aren't discovered yet.
Articuno I flashed Clefable which to be honest, have the capabilities on taking on high ranked Pokemon, let's not forget Heatran that can take on lot of threats, so we just need to find niches about every UU Pokemon and they will have the right to be counted as top tier checks. A team of Heatran, Landorus and Clefable can fare good in the ladder and thus without using top ranked Pokemon. And because we have the power to ban something we shouldn't go ban happy and restrict our wide metagame to mere Pokemon that are counted nowadays underused or in a different category useless.
So you're saying the pokes other than the ~7 I suggested were banworthy are underused or useless? That speaks loads on them and why they should be banned.
Let's take a moment and apply what you said to the Ubers tier.
"In each metagame we have the OU Pokemon and the UU Pokemmon and we don't ban OU Pokemon just for the sake to make UU Pokemon appreciated and used, there's such thing called OU that could be played on the ladder if bored of facing the same threats over and over again. But even with the presence of powerful top tier Pokemon in Ubers, OU and lower tier Pokemon can still outshine them, example being that Amoonguss can beat Xerneas, or Skarmory can beat Arceus. This is the magic of Ubers that you have to create sets that has a great matchup against most of the metagame taking into consideration low tier and top tier Pokemon. Yes, I find Ubers dull to the same Pokemon repeating themselves on ladder but No, I don't agree banning them would solve the problem and if people think such Pokemon are broken and destroy their teams with ease, well we need to think outside the box. There's plenty of Pokemon in Ubers with niches that aren't discovered yet. ... let's not forget Ferrothorn that can take on lot of threats, so we just need to find niches about every OU and lower Pokemon and they will have the right to be counted as top tier checks. A team with Ferrothorn, Mega Sableye and Clefable can fare good in the ladder and thus without using a team of only top ranked Pokemon. And because we have the power to ban something we shouldn't go ban happy and restrict our wide metagame to mere Pokemon that are counted nowadays underused or in a different category useless."
The OU pokemon of Ubers would in this case be pokes such as Arceus, Xerneas, Kyogre, and Rayquaza for example. Are you seeing the point I'm trying to make now? Your logic would still apply to the Ubers tier and does nothing to refute what I've been saying at all. I've been saying that we have a few pokes in 1v1 right now that are much better than the rest of the pokes in the meta. Why should 1v1 be Ubers rather than OU?
The difference between OU and Ubers is that OU is a wider tier that allows much more pokes to be viable, and a huge deal of pokes from lower tiers are viable in OU compared to how much from lower tiers is viable in Ubers.
Moving on to the Mega Salamence discussion, I still don't believe it's too broken, due to some of counters that haven't been mentioned. Mega Salamence usually runs Giga Impact, DD, Sub, Outrage, Flamethrower, Toxic, Roost. Whatever set it runs it has the same checks, some of them are mentioned and some others aren't because they are outside the box. Why did we forget rhyperior? Hyper Cutter Mawile Mega? Porygon2? Heatran? Mega Aggron? Mega Steelix? Diancie? CM Ice Beam Slowbro Mega? Ampharos? Aegislash? And those are only middle ranked Pokemon with the exception of some. If you complain about underused Pokemon being beat by top tier Pokemon you just have to find the right set to use. Let's not forget that these Pokemon also have the ability to take on other top ranked Pokemon, Diancie can go toe to toe with both Zards, Rhyperior also has the chance to defeat both Zard, Kyub... depending on it's set, it's not just a gimmick to defeat specifically Salamence. And to the rare Hydro Pump and/or EQ set they lose to more Pokemon just for the sake of checking UU Pokemon.
The difference with Mega Salamence from other pokes is mainly its broken stats, and not to mention its amazing ability, Aerilate, that works well with its flying type. Pokemon with stats like Mega Salamence and Kyurem-Black (700 BST and the likes) get judged much more strictly, and get banned to Ubers unless there's something holding them back, if not, there would be no reason not to use them (which is the case in 1v1). There should be a compelling reason to keep them, rather looking for a compelling reason to ban, because that reason already exists, which is their base stats. And why is that? Because those stats are far above the rest of the pokes, which makes the game unfair. Why use pokes of lower stats when you can use broken stats? Kyurem-Black for example is not banned from OU because it lacks good ice type STAB, and Hoopa-U gets destroyed by the slightest physical attack. Kyurem-Black however is much stronger in 1v1, because it can run among other sets, choice item sets, which don't have nearly the same repercussions as they would have for it in OU.
There is nothing about 1v1 that makes Mega Salamence any less banworthy than from OU. It pulls off whatever role it has been assigned, and will in the process also beat a significant portion of pokes just because of its broken stats.
Like I said last time, it's too bulky for the damage it's able to do. And the fact that it has checks and counters should not be a reason not to ban, because as i keep repeating, all pokes have checks and counters. Otherwise, why not unban Rayquaza, it would probably have the same checks and counters as Mega Salamence? But Rayquaza is banned because it, as Mega Salamence, takes out a significant portion of pokes, regardless of their roles, stats, or strats, just because of its broken stats, and the same goes for Kyurem-Black. The reason people don't complain about Kyurem-Black is that the meta has adjusted to it, and has access to other broken pokes such as Mega Mawile to deal with it.
Now as for some of the pokes you mentioned that should check Mega Salamence, Porygon-2 would need to run Ice Beam, which arguably would make it lose a bunch of other match-ups, and would still lose to a special HP invested MegaMence with Hyper Voice and Hyper Beam if physically defensive, Return and Giga Impact physical MegaMence if specially defensive, and to a mixed MegaMence set if mixed defenses. Anything (besides multi turn attacks) + Earthquake would beat Air Balloon Heatran, while Heatran wouldn't do enough damage
: 252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Mega Steelix would lose to Earthquake or Fire Blast, while not being able to do enough damage. Diancie could lose to Iron Tail (which MegaMence sometimes runs just to spite fairy types)
: 252+ Atk Mega Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 280-332 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. Ampharos would get outsped and 2HKO'd while not being able to OHKO MegaMence, and if Ampharos relies on the move Counter, it could lose to substitute MegaMence. MegaMence could use Dragon Dance on the 1st turn vs Aegislash, and could OHKO Aegislash-Blade at +2 atk. Aegislash-Blade needs to use King's Shield at turn 2 if it attacked turn 1, or it would get OHKO'd, meanwhile MegaMence could use Dragon Dance again, Aegislash simply does not have the damage output to reliably KO MegaMence. And if the Aegislash has Air-Balloon, then a Fire Blast MegaMence could 2HKO it without any Weakness Policy repercussions.
Metal Burst Mega Aggron doesn't OHKO Fire Blast MegaMence for example, while Fire Blast 2HKO's Mega Aggron, and the same MegaMence set could very well be EV'd to have the bulk to not get KO'd even by Avalanche: -1 252+ Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 196 HP / 56 Def Mega Salamence: 312-368 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The point we've been trying to make is that to the contrary of what you're saying, MegaMence does
not have reliable answers that don't care about its set. You're basically pulling at straws here trying to justify keeping a poke that destroys such a large portion of available pokes and restricts teambuilding by listing a few checks.
Blaziken has been a controversial discussion due to it increasing 50/50 probabilities but it doesn't restrict that much of team building, bulker builds has a chance of beating it, it being frail lets it fall to various attacks even from defensive Pokemon, taking in account Slowbro Mega, Jellicent. Let's not forget that it restricts the top ranked Pokemon usage such as Zard, Kyub, PZ. Isn't that what you wanted? :p It loses to faster trace Pokemon, Salamence Mega, Victini, Scarf Hoopa-U, Bulky Kyub, Bulky Zard X, Rhyperior, Slowbro-Mega, Jellicent, Mandibuzz, Gyarados, Latios. I'm going to stop here and we ever get a suspect test going I'm going to analysis each Pokemon suspected by itself with fancy images and stuff.
TL;DR: I wrote all of that for a reason so read it.
Well, here we go again with justifying the unban of another uber by listing arguably broken pokes that inhabit the meta right now. This is another pointer as to why 1v1 has become a mini ubers. We have all of these arguably broken pokes, so why not unban another, right? Mega Salamence, Kyurem-Black, and to a lesser extent, the mega Charizards are all pokes I've mentioned being contributors to this ubers state right now.
And regarding the pokes you mentioned that beat Blaziken, is that the standard we set for what pokes should be allowed? A list of a few pokes, some of which are on specific sets?
And what do most of these pokes have in common? They resist Blaziken's STAB(s) while their own STAB(s) are super effective against Blaziken.
- faster trace pokemon, AKA Alakazam: one of the fastest pokes there is, with Super Effective STAB against Blaziken
- Salamence-Mega: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Flying STAB, arguably the most broken poke in the meta right now, and yet could still lose to a special invested Blaziken, depending on if it attacks the Blaziken or not or if the Blaziken uses Protect or not on the 1st turn:
136+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Victini: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Psychic STAB, also has a small chance of being outsped and OHKO'd by Earthquake or Stone Edge if not using Choice Scarf
- Hoopa-U: has super effective Psychic STAB, also limited to a specific set of Choice Scarf, loses otherwise
- Bulky Kyurem-Black: arguably broken poke, and a bulky set loses to Blaziken anyway:
252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 474-560 (104.4 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 413-486 (90.9 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- Charizard-X: one of the pokes that contributes to this ubers state I'm trying to discuss, could still lose to Blaziken. Let's look at the most common set, offensive Jolly Dragon Dance (Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 22.159%):
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 268-317 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
The 2 scenarios is if the Charizard goes for Dragon Dance or not, it gets outsped vs Protect Speed Boost.
Now let's take a look at the most common Bulky Char-X set (Impish:252/4/252/0/0/0 5.103%):
Speed stats: Blaziken 259, Char-X 236
4 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Charizard X: 192-227 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that Char-X would lose if it goes for Dragon Dance on turn 1 over Outrage, and could still lose even if it went for Outrage turn 1.
- Rhyperior: has Super Effective Ground STAB, one of the few viable pokes that can live a STAB its weak to, and yet can still be OHKO'd by Blaziken:
252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 393-465 (90.5 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- Slowbro-Mega: resists both STABs while both its STAB's are Super Effective, one of the bulkiest possible pokes, especially in the Defense stat, which is more likely to be relevant vs Blaziken
- Jellicent: resists Blaziken's Fire STAB while immune to its Fighting STAB, while having Super Effective Water STAB, can lose to Thunder Punch or Knock Off coverage anyway if not fully HP/Def invested and running Acid Armor.
- Mandibuzz: OHKO'd by Life Orb Stone Edge or even High Jump Kick Blaziken after 1 Swords Dance, while not being able to OHKO Blaziken itself:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 398-469 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- Gyarados: resists both Blaziken's STAB's, while having Super Effective Water STAB, could still, depending on its EV's, lose to Thunder Punch if it used Dragon Dance, outsped and OHKO'd if it uses Waterfall vs Protect, OHKO'd by High Jump Kick if it goes Mega with the same scenario of using Dragon Dance or not vs using Protect or not:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 359-426 (108.4 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 354-421 (106.9 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Latios: resists both STABs while having Super Effective Psychic STAB, and yet still loses to Blaziken's insane coverage if not holding a Choice Scarf after a Speed Boost Protect:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 343-406 (113.9 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Such pokes exist for pretty much any poke that could be brought up for discussion. And the ones you mentioned are restricted to very specific sets, while some of them don't even beat Blaziken at all.
And this is not even exploring what bulky Blaziken sets, especially with its access to Will-O-Wisp could do.
Meanwhile it beats a significant enough portion of other common and less common pokes to be banworthy, thanks to its amazing coverage, offensive stats, ability to outspeed thanks to Speed Boost, while also being able to run Swords Dance.
You wanna talk about what it does to some of the less used pokes? I'll list some of the pokes I use, which are very viable against the current meta.
- Mega Venusaur: 2HKO'd by Life Orb or Choice Band Brave Bird
- Entei: outsped and OHKO'd by Earthquake or Stone Edge
- Dusclops: destroyed by any physical Blaziken set
- Porygon 2: destroyed by Fighting STAB
- Magnezone: destroyed by STAB or Earthquake, the Weakness Policy Magnezone set is played around by using a non-Super effective coverage 1st, while Magnezone can't OHKO Blaziken
You can fare well with these pokes even against this uber state meta (the magic of 1v1), are you telling me that these pokes should be rendered less relevant?
Even if that was OK, what about the rest of the common pokes that get rendered way less relevant? Just for the sake of bringing another poke that can go toe to toe with or even destroy the most used and overly powered pokes that we have right now in the meta?
Au contraire, I rather think that you've missed my point. I understand entirely that you want, effectively, the Uber 1v1 pokemon banned. That's exactly the point my post was addressing. However, my point is this: the fact that they're considered OP in standard tiers is meaningless when we consider just how different 1v1 is from OU. You wouldn't argue that Deoxys-D should be banned in DOU just because it's OP in OU, and I think the same applies in 1v1. Deo-D has plenty of checks and counters, whether it be a trick/choice mon, specs Kyu-B, a faster or prankster taunt mon... I could list more.
I'm not arguing that they should be banned without any proof, I'm suggesting discussing a ban for them as they very likely are broken in
this meta, with the fact that some of them are in the uber tier taken as a strong hint and indicator that they are broken. And regarding the checks and counters you mentioned, they are arguably broken too, which only helps prove how broken Deo-D is. Also, the trick user would need to outspeed, and the faster Taunt user would need to be a relevant poke (there aren't many), which also would need some way of KO'ing the Deo without being KO'd istelf by Mirror Coat or Counter.
My point is this: If all the mons in the current metagame are countered by other mons in the metagame, clearly the metagame is, at least to some extent, balanced. Saying you'd like those other mons banned as well simply shows that you want mons banned for a reason other than balancing the metagame, because more bans won't actually make the metagame more balanced if it's already balanced.
As with
Dream Eater Gengar , your logic could be applied to the Ubers tier.
"If all the mons in Ubers are countered by other mons in Ubers, clearly the metagame is, at least to some extent, balanced."
And you're right, it is to some extent balanced, but my point is that it would be much more diverse, and teambuilding would be much less restricted if the meta wasn't ubers. So contrary to what you said, I am suggesting the bans for no other reason than to balance the meta.
So why should we ban mons like M-Salamence or Deo-D? As far as I can see, you've yet to provide an actual reason.
You mean aside from the actual reasons
LaxLapras and I provided?
Ninja'd by DEG, but a few other points to add:
The great thing about 1v1 is that almost anything can run some weird, previously-unheard-of set to beat some other huge threat. In fact it's part of why this meta is balanced - it's so hard to be able to beat absolutely everything. I built a team today featuring toxic mega mence, it beats a few things like chansey and deo-d as well as the things more standard iron defense mence beats. However, the counters I was listing were the non-obvious ones to mega mence. You can stick ice beam on any scarf or fast mon and win, and many of them will be useful against a wide range of mons.
I'm also not saying, necessarily, that we shouldn't suspect M-Mence (although I don't personally see it as necessary). I'm saying that the reasons thus far given for suspecting Salamencite aren't good enough and often aren't consistent. If you can show that not enough things counter m-mence, I'll happily vote ban. I just don't see that being the case right now, and I'd rather simply see Blaziken unbanned and the meta remain otherwise unchanged.
Obviously if you've accepted the meta as it is then it would be hard to accept any ban at all, just as how pretty much nothing gets banned from Ubers. So let me ask you this: Do you want Rayquaza to remain banned from 1v1, and if so, why?