On Banning Abilities and Ability Combinations

[UltiMario]

That's sort of... bad....

Considering Sand Stream breaks the entire playstyle of Drizzle teams by stopping it, should be ban Sandstream? No. :V
I have a feeling that was just made for Rank and Stall, which is still dumb lol.

Also, I HATE HATE HATE banning abilities, but if there had to be ANY jurisdiction under which an ability had to qualify for, it would have to be "being broken on every Pokemon that has it." If that's not the case, than the ability really isn't broken, it's just that the Pokemon is good enough to abuse the ability. Including NFE's in that "Everything"? Arguable, I'd like to say include them, but I'm not sure if I care enough to see how well Bidoof does in top level OU.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Never.

Personally, it seems to me that the more we tinker with the banlist in an effort to create an 'open' decentralised metagame, the more Smogon loses its relevance to the wider Pokemon community. The average Pokemon battle this generation is not going to be held on a simulator - it's going to be held over WiFi. A fairly simple banlist, such as existed in Ruby and Sapphire, and to a lesser extent in Diamond and Pearl (the reality is that it was well nigh impossible to get opponents who utilised Garchomp to agree to fight without him, and teams needed to be built with him in mind regardless of Smogon's ban), can be quickly explained to the average player not familiar with Smogon, and agreed upon. The complex banlist we now motion to implement cannot, and will not.

The reality is that the majority of Pokemon battles this generation will be played between teams that take full advantage of the new Dreamworld abilities, including Swift Swim, Drizzle, Sandstream, Drought, and Shadow Tag. Smogon may achieve a less 'centralised' metagame by banning such abilities, but to the extent where its analysis, articles, and metagame hold no relevance to the ordinary player. It will become, in essence, a niche community that only holds appeal to its core group of simulator players.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Never.

Personally, it seems to me that the more we tinker with the banlist in an effort to create an 'open' decentralised metagame, the more Smogon loses its relevance to the wider Pokemon community. The average Pokemon battle this generation is not going to be held on a simulator - it's going to be held over WiFi. A fairly simple banlist, such as existed in Ruby and Sapphire, and to a lesser extent in Diamond and Pearl (the reality is that it was well nigh impossible to get opponents who utilised Garchomp to agree to fight without him, and teams needed to be built with him in mind regardless of Smogon's ban), can be quickly explained to the average player not familiar with Smogon, and agreed upon. The complex banlist we now motion to implement cannot, and will not.

The reality is that the majority of Pokemon battles this generation will be played between teams that take full advantage of the new Dreamworld abilities, including Swift Swim, Drizzle, Sandstream, Drought, and Shadow Tag. Smogon may achieve a less 'centralised' metagame by banning such abilities, but to the extent where its analysis, articles, and metagame hold no relevance to the ordinary player. It will become, in essence, a niche community that only holds appeal to its core group of simulator players.

.....So?, does that really matter?, i dont think trying to attract the ordinary player matters at all, so they wont follow smogon, big deal!! (not really a big deal), i doubt the ordinary players would even give a crap about what smogon does.

Anyway, outside of and Swift Swim + Drizzle and maybe Shadow Tag we should like, never do this again (complex ban), ever.

 

[More Cowbell]

Banning an ability on a single Pokémon to make it viable for OU shouldn't be done, IMO. That's just how the Pokémon is, and if it's broken with that ability, just send it to Ubers. However, if a complete playstyle is broken (like Rain with Drizzle + SS), I think some tweaking should be allowed (like saying you can use them separately). You have to be consequent in that, though: if you say Swift Swim is broken with Drizzle, all SSers should be banned, not just Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo or whatever.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

You have to be consequent in that, though: if you say Swift Swim is broken with Drizzle, all SSers should be banned, not just Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo or whatever.

or you could say that Drizzle is broken with swift swim and ban politoed.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Complex bans are just that. Complicated. Swift Swim Drizzle ban was what people felt was needed for the metagame. Did it improve the metagame? I believe so and so should serve as an example to other complex bans. That said there are actually very few complex bans that can really be said to be broken. SS Drizzle and the inconsistent ability are said to be broken. (I have no person opinion because I've really done no research into the matter.) Onto your options though, I really dont think you thought the options through. I only feel that if the suspect combo is breaking the metagame on a substantial level then it should be tested. If a single pokemon is broken with an ability that others may not be broken with then its must be the pokemon itself that's broken with the ability. It falls on us to check what exactly makes the pokemon break the metagame and in what ways does it chanage the metagame. If all pokemon are broken with the abilty then it calls to the power of the ability and how it breaks the metagame. The one true question for a supposedly broken anything is "In what ways do the suspects break the metagame, why do they change the metagame, and how exactly do they change the metagame?"

Inconsistent relied on a stall factor to get up evasion boosts so that it couldnt be hit while it swept through opposing teams. nothing could really stop it without bringing in otherwise unviable movesets and completely changing the metagame to work around the Inconsistent users. That needed to be banned.

Reuniclus is a suspect that relies on Magic Guard, Calm Mind, and its Natural Bulk to break through stall and I've heard that the trick room set gives offensive a pretty hard time as well. However, many previlent threats such as Scizor, tyranitar, and latias can provide viable checks for it. It does increase the usage of these three but not to a point where the whole metagame becomes twisted around Reuniclus to break it. Therefore I don't believe its broken.

I realise what flames I may be starting but I'm only providing some viable thoughts on the question as to how something is broken "In what ways do the suspects break the metagame, why do they change the metagame, and how exactly do they change the metagame?"

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Also, I HATE HATE HATE banning abilities, but if there had to be ANY jurisdiction under which an ability had to qualify for, it would have to be "being broken on every Pokemon that has it." If that's not the case, than the ability really isn't broken, it's just that the Pokemon is good enough to abuse the ability. Including NFE's in that "Everything"? Arguable, I'd like to say include them, but I'm not sure if I care enough to see how well Bidoof does in top level OU.

Out of curiosity, what about Luvdisc, then? It's as relevant to top-level OU play as Bidoof. By your logic, we don't have to take it into account when discussing Swift Swim's brokeness, right?

 

[M Dragon]

About abilities, its easy.
Is a pokemon broken with an ability? ban the pokemon.
Is every pokemon broken with that ability? ban the ability

 

[BKC]

imo, it should be taken case-by-case. m dragon's idea seems good too.

 

[phalanx]

ban the ability only if it is broken, i dont like the idea of banning something because it is broken with something else, either ban one or the other, it over complicates things (aka cant have this X with Y but can have X and Y if they are not together)

 

[The 1 and Only Lady Gaga]

Why ban Swift Swim + Drizzle? Really, I don't see them banning Sand Stream + Sand Rush or Drought + Chlorphyll. It's quite ironic IMHO.

 

[Raikaria]

So... according to the poll, almost 60% of people, at the time of writing this post, think that Drizzle + SS should not have been banned.

Either that, or they think that Luvdisc is broken in Rain.

Personally, I think combination bans should only be made when the ability breaks multiple pokemon, and increases their potency to a large degree [Obviously, if it's a small boon they gain, then the pokemon is probobly the issue, such as Garchomp + Sand Veil]

Example:

I support the Drizzle + SS ban, as it broke Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Manpahy, and possibly some other, overshadowed pokemon, such as Goyrbass [Spelling, I know]

I would not support a Sand Stream + Sand Throw ban, as Excadrill is the only abuser of it. Excadrill would be banned instead. Nor would I suggest a Sand Power combination ban, or a Sand Veil combination ban.

However, if, say, Sandslash is also broken with Sand Throw, then maybe I would support a combination ban.

Same with Cholrophill. If Venausaur alone is broken, then no, ban Venusaur. If sevveral Chrolophill pokemon were broken, then a combination ban would be preferable.


@ LadyGaga: The fact is, that SS + Drizzle broke many pokemon. It also provided extra STAB on the pokemon it gave a speed boost to [With the exception of a couple]. Sand Throw des not do this, and only has one user anyway. Chlorophill does not provide a STAB bonus to Grass-types, and it increases one of their weaknesses as well. [And gives that same type another boost to their STAB].

Even without SS+Drizzle, you don't see Venusaur dominateing everything like Rain did.

 

[UltiMario]

Out of curiosity, what about Luvdisc, then? It's as relevant to top-level OU play as Bidoof. By your logic, we don't have to take it into account when discussing Swift Swim's brokeness, right?

Rain Dance/Hydro Pump Focus Sash Luvdisc can check RP Groudon.

:3

Even throwing Luvdisc and friends out the window, you still have Omastar, Huntail, Gorebyss, Poliwrath, (and from what I've heard) Beartic in DW that can put a dent into the metagame with Swift Swim where Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo would be out. They're all viable threats with Swift Swim (ESPECIALLY Omastar), but they're not nearly as difficult to deal with as their top-tier brethren. Off the top of my head, Ferrothorn should be able to 1-shot every one of them with Power Whip/Gyro Ball and fear nothing except for a possibility of Poliwrath getting a BD in. Virizion can deal with them too, just not as well, but on the other hand, Virizion covers other Rain threats and other weather threats too.

I hate overly complex bans, but really is banning EVERY SSer healthier for the metagame than only banning the combo on Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops? I dunno, maybe when we get a suspect side-metagame rolling that should be tested.

 

[Thorhammer]

Rain Dance/Hydro Pump Focus Sash Luvdisc can check RP Groudon.

:3

Even throwing Luvdisc and friends out the window, you still have Omastar, Huntail, Gorebyss, Poliwrath, (and from what I've heard) Beartic in DW that can put a dent into the metagame with Swift Swim where Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo would be out. They're all viable threats with Swift Swim (ESPECIALLY Omastar), but they're not nearly as difficult to deal with as their top-tier brethren. Off the top of my head, Ferrothorn should be able to 1-shot every one of them with Power Whip/Gyro Ball and fear nothing except for a possibility of Poliwrath getting a BD in. Virizion can deal with them too, just not as well, but on the other hand, Virizion covers other Rain threats and other weather threats too.

I hate overly complex bans, but really is banning EVERY SSer healthier for the metagame than only banning the combo on Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops? I dunno, maybe when we get a suspect side-metagame rolling that should be tested.

To add to this, Aldaron's proposal has served its first purpose in demonstrating that Drizzle is not broken with its top sweepers banned. Now that that's happened, it's time to refine the ban so that it won't restrict Swift Swim users that aren't broken.

Furthermore, while banning Kingdra + Swift Swim + Drizzle would be more complex, banning Kingdra + Drizzle would not. This is clearly more appropriate, because the combination of Swift Swim + Drizzle is not broken. It's the individual Rain abusers that are broken with permanent rain and under no other conditions.

 

[Benlisted]

Imo this thread doesn't cover the Drizzle+Swift Swim issue very explicitly, as like Woodchuck says, Aldaron's proposal fixed a broken playstyle, not something much smaller like a broken ability. Moreover, the possibility of banning SwSwers like Kingdra individually was rejected for the additional time it would've taken and restriction of use of those pokemon it would've caused. Not to say I agree with that, but Aldaron's proposal was essentially a compromise in dealing with a playstyle as a whole.

Now in terms of another ability combination like that - for instance Chlorophyll and Drought (Sand Rush doesn't have enough decent abusers to warrant a combination ban imo) the same should apply if it is deemed necessary to fix the brokenness of a playstyle. But in most other cases, we should follow what we would do if a move tutor came out teaching something Outrage, which then broke said pokemon - ban the pokemon, not the pokemon with move (or ability, as the case may be). I don't like that this would restrict Chandelure's use without Shadow Tag for instance (when it is released) as an example, but it is the logical thing to do with our current bans and to reduce complexity.

 

[UltiMario]

Furthermore, while banning Kingdra + Swift Swim + Drizzle would be more complex, banning Kingdra + Drizzle would not. This is clearly more appropriate, because the combination of Swift Swim + Drizzle is not broken. It's the individual Rain abusers that are broken with permanent rain and under no other conditions.

But then the question rises "Is Non-SS Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops broken in Rain?" The answer is obviously no, considering none of them have made a splash on the new metagame.

You'd also be removing Rain Dish Ludicolo with that kind of more simple ban, of which is actually a legit and viable strategy. The whole point is not not ban things that aren't broken, so don't fix it by banning OTHER things that aren't broken.

 

[Kibago]

more then one Pokemon. for example, if Sand Veil+Sandstream was enough to break Garchomp this gen, that wouldn't be sufficient cause. but if Garchomp+Gliscor+Cacturne were all broken with it, that would be enough to propose the idea even if Sandslash and Donphan were not.

 

[Tyrabsol]

more then one Pokemon. for example, if Sand Veil+Sandstream was enough to break Garchomp this gen, that wouldn't be sufficient cause. but if Garchomp+Gliscor+Cacturne were all broken with it, that would be enough to propose the idea even if Sandslash and Donphan were not.

Don't you Mean Dugtrio?

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

.....So?, does that really matter?, i dont think trying to attract the ordinary player matters at all, so they wont follow smogon, big deal!! (not really a big deal), i doubt the ordinary players would even give a crap about what smogon does.

Anyway, outside of and Swift Swim + Drizzle and maybe Shadow Tag we should like, never do this again (complex ban), ever.

That's actually not true at all. Smogon's analysis draw quite a large crowd (I am a WiFi player and hear talk of Smogon all the time), but this will only continue to be the case as long as Smogon's 'metagame' is at least nominally in line with the wider competitive metagame. Smogon's sets can currently be used in WiFi and other non-Smogon approved matches because Smogon's rules are simple and attempt to preserve, to a large extent, the parametres of Gamefreak's own competitive environment. Chop and change too much, and that won't be the case. The reality is that Smogon won't be the competitive Pokemon hub it currently is - it'll be a niche closed community of emulator players and nothing further.

 

[Thorhammer]

But then the question rises "Is Non-SS Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops broken in Rain?" The answer is obviously no, considering none of them have made a splash on the new metagame.

You'd also be removing Rain Dish Ludicolo with that kind of more simple ban, of which is actually a legit and viable strategy. The whole point is not not ban things that aren't broken, so don't fix it by banning OTHER things that aren't broken.

Banning specific abilities only on specific Pokemon was shot down at the beginning of Gen 5.

Bans just don't work that way. If a Pokemon has multiple sets, but not all of them are broken, you can't just ban the broken ones and leave the ones that aren't broken. Doing so would be akin to banning Darkrai from using Dark Void, if that move was the only thing that caused it to be broken.

Some would argue that the two are not the same. I was one of them. However, officially, they're similar enough to get the same treatment.

 

[khz]

That's actually not true at all. Smogon's analysis draw quite a large crowd (I am a WiFi player and hear talk of Smogon all the time), but this will only continue to be the case as long as Smogon's 'metagame' is at least nominally in line with the wider competitive metagame. Smogon's sets can currently be used in WiFi and other non-Smogon approved matches because Smogon's rules are simple and attempt to preserve, to a large extent, the parametres of Gamefreak's own competitive environment. Chop and change too much, and that won't be the case. The reality is that Smogon won't be the competitive Pokemon hub it currently is - it'll be a niche closed community of emulator players and nothing further.

Smogon never actually strived to cater for the WiFi community, it was just coincidental. That is why Rotom-A wasn't banned, even if it can't be used on WiFi. Similarly if Heatran could only be used on local wireless, it wouldn't be banned anyway if it couldn't be used on WiFi.

 

[capefeather]

Voted for the multiple Pokémon option. The "all Pokémon" option actually doesn't make any sense in the framework of competitive Pokémon. If there was a new Pokémon that had Moody and 20/5/5/5/5/5 stats, would that suddenly invalidate the Moody ban? That seems utterly ridiculous to me. However, I do not think that the number should necessarily be two. It should be a number so high that it would be impractical to ban each Pokémon one by one.

EDIT: I also vehemently believe that combination bans should be employed in extreme cases, and ideally be a temporary solution to explore metagame shifts without practically starting over.

 

[Thorhammer]

Voted for the multiple Pokémon option. The "all Pokémon" option actually doesn't make any sense in the framework of competitive Pokémon. If there was a new Pokémon that had Moody and 20/5/5/5/5/5 stats, would that suddenly invalidate the Moody ban? That seems utterly ridiculous to me. However, I do not think that the number should necessarily be two. It should be a number so high that it would be impractical to ban each Pokémon one by one.

EDIT: I also vehemently believe that combination bans should be employed in extreme cases, and ideally be a temporary solution to explore metagame shifts without practically starting over.

Alternatively, it could require all Pokemon within a specific threshold - say, the ability to learn all "standard" TMs, and a minimum BST somewhere in the 300-400 range. To use the previous example, any existing Pokemon within those restrictions would be broken with Moody.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

or you could say that Drizzle is broken with swift swim and ban politoed.

The thing is, though Politoed by himself is hardly OP, and Swift Swimmers without Drizzle aren't OP either. It's just the fact that Drizzle and Swift Swim together are broken, and it seems to me that banning the combination is better than either banning an already mediocre pokemon (Politoed) who isn't broken by himself, or banning every single Swift Swimmer that can abuse Drizzle. And it seems to me that banning Politoed outright could lead to banning Droughtales, Abomasnow, and our Sand Stream inducers, which would lead to a weatherless meta game, making that kinda boring.

But I can't think of any other combos that are in this situation.

 

[Thorhammer]

The thing is, though Politoed by himself is hardly OP, and Swift Swimmers without Drizzle aren't OP either. It's just the fact that Drizzle and Swift Swim together are broken, and it seems to me that banning the combination is better than either banning an already mediocre pokemon (Politoed) who isn't broken by himself, or banning every single Swift Swimmer that can abuse Drizzle. And it seems to me that banning Politoed outright could lead to banning Droughtales, Abomasnow, and our Sand Stream inducers, which would lead to a weatherless meta game, making that kinda boring.

But I can't think of any other combos that are in this situation.

Politoed is no longer a mediocre Pokemon. He is now a top-tier support Pokemon with arguably the best ability in the game, with the exception of the banned Moody.

However, I will state again that if something must be banned in combination with Drizzle, there is no reason whatsoever for that something to be the entire Swift Swim ability. Such a ban is not justified, and there are better alternatives.