Omastar Suspect Discussion

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Some of you may recall the discussions that occurred several weeks ago at the end of March among the members of the RU Council. At the conclusion of those discussions, it was agreed upon by the council members that Omastar was worthy of a suspect test. As the metagame has now settled since the April tiering changes, Omastar is now a suspect.

What you are expected to do in this thread:

1. Post which sets you used in this and previous rounds as well as what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

2. Discuss Omastar's place in the tier; has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Omastar?

3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Omastar in this thread.

4. The Council should also figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rucouncil (open channel) to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. When decided, this discussion time will be edited into this post, and all council members should do their damnedest to participate.

 

[/B/utterfree]

The Omastar set I've used in previous rounds:

Omastar @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Sp Atk / 252 Speed
Moves:
1. Shell Smash
2. Hydro Pump
3. Ice Beam
4. Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire

I've experimented with this Pokemon and Carracosta during the February rounds, as they're among the (very) few Shell Smashers I like.

This set's not broken.

Omastar's Special movepool isn't very good (it doesn't have any Rock STAB that hits on the Special side except for AncientPower, for example), thereby rendering it with the obvious Water STAB/Ice Beam combo and one coverage move (a Hidden Power - picking between Fire and Grass can be dubious, and Hidden Power Rock also adds complications). This set also requires a lot of support, because of Munchlax, Ferroseed, Quagsire, and Clefable walling it (among other dedicated walls). Furthermore, opposing Sceptile, Accelgor, and Moltres still outspeed and kill Omastar even with one Shell Smash boost, and it can only defeat those Pokes on the switch.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Overall, Omastar is an awful Pokemon in comparison to the awe-aspiring power of the almighty Linoone. I demand that we have a thread on that instead!

Anyway, realistically, I've used the set posted above as well, and have to say that it is definitely a beast. An example I can think of is one of my SPL RU matches. I was down like 1-5 and my opponent decided to send in a Crawdaunt. Now, we all know that Crawdaunt is powerful, but that didn't stop Omastar. It got up a Shell Smash and swept. Its bulk is what takes it to the next level in my opinion, being able to live priority easily, even Mach Punches from Hitmonchan. White Herb cancels out the Defense drops so that isn't even a problem. And of course, we all know how ridiculously powerful Omastar is. Coverage isn't even a problem with you have a STAB Base 120 Power Move coming off of Base 115 Special Attack...which has a chance to be doubled after Shell Smash. We don't even have Honchkrow to knock it out with Sucker Punch after Omastar has been weakened trying to use Shell Smash, or even a chance to force a prediction battle with Sharpedo. This thing just demolishes teams, especially due to the insane power of Hydro Pump. In dual screens, this thing is ridiculously easy to set up, and getting up dual screens is easy as pie with Uxie around. With entry hazards up, tearing through teams becomes even more easy, and keeping hazards on the field is extremely easy due to things like Nasty Plot Cofagrigus. Also, Water + Ice is solid coverage, and it even has HP Grass to deal a lot of damage to most Water-types. It also manages to set up on a large variety of Pokemon, making it even more of a threat; even common Pokemon like Entei become set-up fodder if they lack HP Grass. Broken.

Also, to the comment above, you do realize Quagsire is demolished by HP Grass, and that Omastar easily outruns both Sceptile and Accelgor after a Shell Smash right? o.o

 

[complete legitimacy]

Hidden Power Grass is really the only option. Hitting Slowking, Quagsire, and Lanturn is too much to give up especially when the only thing you're hitting with HP Fire is Ferroseed. And I also want to point out that +2 Timid Omastar outspeeds Scarf Medicham, Scarf Rotom-C, and Scarf Moltres with HP Rock (which is terrible and should never be used but including it for the sake of reference.

As of right now, I don't really have an opinion on Omastar, as I really haven't faced enough to accurately judge if it is broken or not. Personally, I've never had trouble with it, but I've usually run a check to it. Cryogonal can switch in and Haze the boosts away, Munchlax can phaze, both Ferroseed and Slowking cripple it with Thunder Wave, Lanturn can take a +2 HP Grass and hit it with Thunderbolt, and Roselia can take on non-Life Orb versions. On the revenge-killing side, Scarf Manectric, Scarf Rotom, and Scarf Galvantula dispose of it nicely. Hitmonchan does a little less than 60% minimum against White Herb versions with Life Orb Mach Punch, and is near-guaranteed to KO after Stealth Rock if Omastar is at -1 Defense. Absol only does slightly less with Life Orb Sucker Punch.

EDIT: Shake ninja'd me about the first paragraph...

 

[/B/utterfree]

Hidden Power Grass is really the only option. Hitting Slowking, Quagsire, and Lanturn is too much to give up especially when the only thing you're hitting with HP Fire is Ferroseed. And I also want to point out that +2 Timid Omastar outspeeds Scarf Medicham, Scarf Rotom-C, and Scarf Moltres with HP Rock (which is terrible and should never be used but including it for the sake of reference).

Hmph. Perhaps my flaw was that I ran HP Fire as opposed to HP Grass, thereby lowering my Speed IV a bit by mistake. Otherwise, I presume that Omastar is powerful enough to warrant a Suspect at least. I still don't see it as broken, if only because of Ferroseed, Munchlax, and Clefable walling it (and T-waving Omastar). Although, outspeeding Choice Scarfers is good - I'm glad I picked Timid as my nature for my Omastars when I ran them two months ago.

EDIT: However, when it comes to Shell Smashers, I still feel like there are others I could use instead. Carracosta and Crustle come into mind; the former can go mixed offensively (it has a really good movepool, and it can use priority) and is good at being mixed defensively, while the latter has good dual-STAB and a better Sp. Def (and a decent Attack stat) - both also have better abilities to make sure they aren't completely mauled by their counters/checks. Both Pokes have Sturdy, and Carracosta also has Solid Rock (less likelihood of getting OHKO'd by SE moves), while Crustle has Shell Armor (for if you don't like crithax, I guess).

 

[Windsong]

I honestly don't find Omastar all that awe inspiring anymore. Depending on its item choice (with Life Orb, Lum Berry, and White Herb being the three main options) it loses to at least one prominent threat, with sets lacking Life Orb being beaten by Gallade, sets lacking Lum being paralyzed by Lanturn and Slowking, and sets lacking White Herb losing to Hitmonchan with minor residual damage. In addition, the metagame just isn't in the greatest shape for Omastar right now. The higher offensive pace in the meta that the rise of Claydol and Gligar created has given offensive Omastar far less opportunities to set up, while the rise in offensive Grass-types such as Sceptile hasn't exactly been beneficial for it either. Finally, Omastar isn't even fast enough to beat a number of decently common scarfers at +2. Timid Omastar loses out on all +1 base 90s, while Modest loses out on a number of other common scarfers, and the power increase isn't even strong enough to let it break through its main checks. Not really a dominating force in the meta at this point, in my opinion.

 

[Honko]

Not even remotely broken. Is this thread a joke? Why are we suspecting things in a metagame everyone agrees is balanced?

Seriously, why?

List of common Pokemon Omastar can safely switch into and set up on: Entei locked into Flare Blitz or ExtremeSpeed, Moltres locked into Fire Blast, Spiritomb, defensive Uxie/Qwilfish/Slowking/Clefable that lack Thunder Wave, and Steelix. That's it. So basically you're only setting up after a KO unless your opponent sees your Omastar and decides to hand it free turns for fun. That's OK, it's true for a lot of set-up Pokemon, but if this guy is really broken despite not being able to set up safely without coming in after a KO, he must be pretty damn impossible to revenge kill, right?

All the best Choice Scarf users are Electric or Fighting, and they easily OHKO Omastar even with White Herb. Guess not.

There's a reason it was only 33rd in the usage stats last month (and even lower in the 1337 stats, if you think that means anything). It's simply not that common, because it simply isn't a dominant force in the metagame. Sometimes it works, and that's pretty cool, but it just can't sweep consistently enough to say it's breaking the metagame by any stretch of the imagination. Some people will be in favor of banning just about anything (hi Butterfree what's up yes as someone who has played RU from the very beginning I have used Omastar before and somehow I still don't find it broken), but the truth is this is a balanced metagame and there's no reason to risk needlessly fucking with it by suspecting things just for the sake of it.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Not even remotely broken. Is this thread a joke? Why are we suspecting things in a metagame everyone agrees is balanced?

Seriously, why?

I don't agree that RU is balanced. Say hello to OTR Cofagrigus having less counters now, as well as great SO ZETTA SLOW teammates to work with.

But I digress. This isn't a Cofagrigus Suspect thread.

Furthermore, have you tried Omastar for yourself? The OP states that one should assess Omastar after trying a set or two from it. I really don't quite grasp why you don't find Omastar broken. After my realizations that I should have been running HP Grass on my Omastar, I'm on the fence on banning it, leaning towards banning it.

 

[Mazinger]

Hi

I don't really think Omastar is broken either. First, it has difficulty setting up due to almost everything in the tier being able to KO it or cripple it with status, and when it does set up it's either beaten by something defensive depending on item (see windosng's post) or just revenge killed by something like Manectric. Don't get me wrong, Omastar is still one of the biggest threats in the metagame, but as it is I just don't really think it's broken. I could elaborate some more, but it's mostly covered in other posts in this thread, so that's it for now. I'll test it further and maybe post more later.

 

[lars]

I'll admit that I've never used Omastar, but due to my near obsession with having a choice scarf scout (primeape and manectric) or a substantial amount of priority when I run slower more stall oriented teams, I've honestly never really had a problem with it.

I can only recall being beaten by an Omastar a handful (maybe 3 or 4) of times in the last month or 2. The most recent one was when it got an Ancient Power boost (:evan:) and then was able to outspeed my Manectric for the complete sweep of my team. The one before was when the opponent's team seemed more stall oriented so I kind of assumed it was a defensive set and tricked away Manectric's scarf to cripple a Munchlax... paid for that one.

Just due to Omastar's access to Shell Smash and also all the entry hazards makes it a pretty decent 'mon in RU, but I was very surprised when I saw "Omastar Suspect Discussion"

Only my opinion here, but I don't think Cofagrigus is broken in RU (if Drapion ever leaves, my mind might change) and Cof is way better than Omastar (in terms of an offensive set)

Maybe it's just that I don't run across enough "good" players using offensive Omastar, but the fact that when I see Omastar, I think "Oh good, free Manectric kill", kind of sums up my thoughts.

I could go into more detail, but I think other posts emphasize it's weaknesses enough. Honko really put it well. Status, somewhat difficult to set up, abundance of revenge killers, etc. RU is pretty balanced in my eyes. (Ok yes Cofagrigus is slightly centralizing among top tier players, but not overly.

Finally, I would try out Omastar to develop a better opinion, but with college finals on the horizon and my greater desire to participate in RW #4 I don't have the time.
Generally I will start to use a Pokemon if I'm having a hard time beating it and want to see what others are doing...with Omastar I just don't need to do this

 

[Heysup]

If we are discussing Omastar as a suspect I highly recommend people start using this neat tool called <grass move>. It's not like you don't know your opponent has an Omastar....If you don't have a way to revenge kill Omastar then don't give it a chance to set up. It's really hard (read: impossible) to set Omastar up if you're opponent keeps in mind that you have it and doesn't leave their CB Entei (do people still use this over LO?) or Scarf Moltres locked into fire-type attacks. If you are using a defensive Pokemon that is set up bait (ie doesn't have status or a Grass-type move) then you are playing Pokemon wrong.

Also keep in mind Omastar is not actually that fast. Its +2 is the same or lower than many Pokemon's +1, this was sort of mentioned in pieces but just to concretely say it.

 

[DittoCrow]

Omastar is not broken in my opinion. The only thing is, when he sets up, something is going down. The problem with Omastar is that he cannot safely set up on the majority of the metagame, as his poor typing leaves him vulnerable to common Fighting- and Grass-type attacks. His awful Speed also leaves him prone to being revenge killed by threats such as Scarf Manectric. The chosen item also puts Omastar in a predicament. Life Orb is necessary to OHKO Roselia, Poliwrath, and other bulky mons, but the defense drops leave him vulnerable to priority such as Hitmonchan's Mach Punch or Feraligatr's Aqua Jet. Holding either Life Orb or White Herb also means that Omastar will be hit by status due to the lack of Lum Berry. However, if Omastar is able to get a free switch in and set up, he will wreck havoc with the proper team support. If he doesn't OHKO something, he'll definitely drastically weaken something on your team. Playing around Omastar is quite simple due his many flaws (low Speed, type weaknesses, item choice). Even with dual screen support, it can be played around; for example, I used Mandibuzz/Cryogonal to deal with ShakeItUp's team, and they aren't even solid counters ;p. I feel that Omastar is similar to Sharpedo, having a number of benefits but also possessing a few flaws that hinder its ability to sweep.

On a side note, the only time I think that Omastar is "broken" is in rain. Hydro Pump OHKOes so much, and Swift Swim alleviates his base 55 Speed. However, rain only lasts for 5-8 turns, so Omastar is still able to be delt with.

 

[Rakan]

I've been playing a bit of RU lately, and I've seen an Omastar maybe once. I know we aren't attributing usage statistics to suspecting things, but Omastar really isn't all that great; a quick glance at the usage stats should give some insight into that. Sure, Shell Smash + a powerful STAB move is always fun to use, but it is by no means broken in the metagame itself. Suspects should really only be Pokemon that have little to no checks or counters, such as Porygon-Z in the past. I'm curious as to why Omastar is being suspected when a more significant threat, OTR Cofagrigus, is being left in the dark. Digression aside, Omastar isn't really that versatile; occasionally you'll see the rare defensive set (which is not that bad actually), but most of the time when you encounter Omastar, you can expect that it will try to set up a Shell Smash and sweep, giving you an easier time of dealing with it, simply because you know exactly what it's going to do. I don't know if a single sweeping attribute is worthy of being banned. Not to mention Scarfers with a positive nature and a Speed stat of at least base 90 can outspeed even after a Shell Smash boost and KO, such as Manectric, Galvantula (people should use this more...), Primeape, Rotom, Typhlosion (with HP Grass), etc. It also can't touch Ferroseed, who can proceed to use Thunder Wave / Leech Seed. A few thoughts of mine.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Its apparent that the general consensus at the present time is that Omastar is not broken. This discussion will be locked until further notice.