Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[Xpert]

wobb is cheap. and its easy to use.
on my real teams my rank is usually 1530 to 1600. but when i use wobb i made it to 1670. and after i took it out of my team my rank actually went back to 1530-1600 range.

wobb can take out almost anything and you will end up killin more than 1 poke with it.

so thats my story on the uber cheap wobba.
IMO wobb should be banned from OU.

 

[Pablo]

Here's part of a log, in which Wobb really shines for me, and helps Garchomp pretty much annihilate stuff.

Nick_123 sent out Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
PaChE sent out Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Nick_123 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Heatran fell asleep!

I hate this scenarios, but am willing to gamble on the speed tie + Hypnosis accuracy, but I now know this guy is 100% Wobbu bait.
---
Heatran is fast asleep!
Heatran used Sleep Talk.
Heatran used Rest.
But it failed!
Bronzong used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 62% of its health.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
---
Nick_123 switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).

Huge double switch in my favour, and Bronzong is pretty screwed.
---
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Bronzong's attack missed!
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Bronzong got an encore!
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
But it failed!

That spells doom for Bronzong right there, but I don't want to be unlucky and have both SafeGuard AND Encore finish in the same turn, so I decide to bring in Wobbuffets best friend.
---
PaChE switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
But it failed!
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Bronzong's attack missed!
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Bronzong's attack missed!
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!

Wobbuffet switch to Garchomp always means I get a free Swords Dance, and your opponent not being very smart means you get two :D. Running some calcs, I find +4 Attack/Life Orb Fire Fang is a OHKO 100% of the time.
---
Garchomp used Fire Fang.
It's super effective!
Bronzong lost 100% of its health.
Nick_123's Bronzong fainted.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.

And with Bronzong down, one can assume Garchomp will be having ALOT of fun KOing stuff, as Bronzong is dubbed a great Chomp counter.
---
Nick_123 switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Gliscor lost 100% of its health.
Nick_123's Gliscor fainted.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.

If Gliscor is his best switchin, that means game.
---
Nick_123 switched in Vaporeon (lvl 100 Vaporeon ?).
Vaporeon used Protect.
Vaporeon protected itself!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Vaporeon protected itself!
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
Vaporeon lost 100% of its health.
Nick_123's Vaporeon fainted.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!

So there you have it. 11 turns and I'm up 6-3 with 5 Pokemon at 100% health and 1 at 80%. Courtesy of your friend Wobbuffet. Personally if this guy stays in OU I won't mind, it'll just make me winning alot easier. It is not easy to use, and I adjusted my Wobb's EV's to outrun every wall that has Relaxed Swampert's 31 Speed IV or less, meaning pretty much ALL of the relevant ones.

My team also carries Magnezone now, as the ever popular Heatrans and Bronzongs are everywhere, so I Encore Hypnosis/Stealth Rock, or Rest/Sleep Talk, and go to town on them with Magnezone, not letting them escape, and actually having a shot at KOing them offensively unlike with Wobbuffet.

 

[phalanx]

i have used Wobbuffet in a similar stance (not safeguard) but encoring a blisseys calm mind, then switching to metagross, which buys me an agility turn, so now anything that does come in on metagross is 9/10 outsped i can just sweep.
now imagine the same scenario with say a lucario, scizor, (insert high attack speedy pokemon with priority moves)
wobby comes,
encores,
switches to aforementioned pokemon
swords dance, then instead of a normal item like leftovers, incorporate the focus sash set-up technique to get ANOTHER swords dance into the battle basically allowing a free sweep.
i have rhyperior doing 52% to wobby with megahorn btw, how much can heracross do?

 

[Bliksem]

So there you have it. 11 turns and I'm up 6-3 with 5 Pokemon at 100% health and 1 at 80%. Courtesy of your friend Wobbuffet. Personally if this guy stays in OU I won't mind, it'll just make me winning alot easier. It is not easy to use, and I adjusted my Wobb's EV's to outrun every wall that has Relaxed Swampert's 31 Speed IV or less, meaning pretty much ALL of the relevant ones.

My team also carries Magnezone now, as the ever popular Heatrans and Bronzongs are everywhere, so I Encore Hypnosis/Stealth Rock, or Rest/Sleep Talk, and go to town on them with Magnezone, not letting them escape, and actually having a shot at KOing them offensively unlike with Wobbuffet.

Have you tried using the Tickle Wobbuffet then switching in a Scarf'd Garchomp with Outrage?

EDIT: Heracross does max 85% without Guts and without a boost.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I'm going to have to ask you what you're basing this on, otherwise it's an unsupported opinion that has no business in this thread. People "hate" Blissey too and that hasn't stopped her from being in the top three on the ladder in both weighted and unweighted usage since its creation.

People don't call you a (and I'm quoting here) "(BAN ME PLEASE)" for using Blissey. You have to be living under a rock and have completely ignored basically any previous Wobbuffet discussion (or not use it yourself) to not see that numerous people out right despise Wobbuffet.

When people ask "Well I wonder why people don't use Wobbuffet more?", I think that is a valid response. I wasn't posting "Hai guys I hates that Wobbwhore! We shuld ban it!", I was merely pointing out that people use things they like. Otherwise I'd bet that you'd never see any Voltorb leads, let alone three.

Thats the wonderful world of Pokemon. I believe the mods themselves have to sift through all the random Serebii fan fic crap that spills over here. Despite how much you want a pure competitive environment, I can guarantee that people from GameFAQs, Serebii, etc all pop on Shoddy which fucks up the pure statistics.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Have you tried using the Tickle Wobbuffet then switching in a Scarf'd Garchomp with Outrage?

EDIT: Heracross does max 85% without Guts and without a boost.

Tickle is only effective in combination with Pursuit. Any smart player that is encored into a move would switch out once Wobbuffet has switched. The only reason to switch Wobbuffet out is to give something a free turn that results from being Encored. If you stay in and keep doing dumb crap like Calm Minding, then you simply give your opponent more time to set up.

If you bring out Garchomp (or anything that doesn't threaten to Pursuit) then I switch, unafraid of being Pursuited and all those Tickles go to waste. You basically have to have something that can at least potentially use Pursuit to force the opponent into staying for fear of taking that -6 Def CB Pursuit on the switch, but then you also give the opponent the option to set up.

It is a very tricky situation.

 

[Jumpman16]

People don't call you a (and I'm quoting here) "(BAN ME PLEASE)" for using Blissey. You have to be living under a rock and have completely ignored basically any previous Wobbuffet discussion (or not use it yourself) to not see that numerous people out right despise Wobbuffet.

When people ask "Well I wonder why people don't use Wobbuffet more?", I think that is a valid response. I wasn't posting "Hai guys I hates that Wobbwhore! We shuld ban it!", I was merely pointing out that people use things they like. Otherwise I'd bet that you'd never see any Voltorb leads, let alone three.

Thats the wonderful world of Pokemon. I believe the mods themselves have to sift through all the random Serebii fan fic crap that spills over here. Despite how much you want a pure competitive environment, I can guarantee that people from GameFAQs, Serebii, etc all pop on Shoddy which fucks up the pure statistics.

I made the Blissey comparison because, as I referenced in post #95 of this thread, "people" hate or hated Blissey just like they hate Wobbuffet. It really depends on who you're talking about when you say "people" and how many people you're talking about. But you're as under a rock as you think I am (or haven't been around enough to know what I'm talking about) if you think the same "boring/unfun" opinion has not been held of Blissey by a lot of posters, skilled or not.

"People use things they like" doesn't fly for me either when we're talking about the ladder, where the point is to win. I am not really surprised that there were evidently three Voltorb leads, but I don't really care because there are weighted usage statistics for a reason. And this is why I'm really tired of hearing complaints about Wobbuffet being boring/unfun because these sentiments alone have virtually no bearing on competitive battle.

And besides, try distinguishing between the fun of leading with Voltorb and the fun of cracking the top 10 on the ladder.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I made the Blissey comparison because, as I referenced in post #95 of this thread, "people" hate or hated Blissey just like they hate Wobbuffet. It really depends on who you're talking about when you say "people" and how many people you're talking about. But you're as under a rock as you think I am (or haven't been around enough to know what I'm talking about) if you think the same "boring/unfun" opinion has not been held of Blissey by a lot of posters, skilled or not.

I've seen the 'boring/unfun' arguments about Blissey many times. I've been visiting these boards far longer then I have been actively posting (seeing as only recently have I actually had a competitive community to participate in game). Just because something is boring/unfun/hated doesn't mean it is on the same level as another boring/unfun/hated thing. The level of hatred of Wobbuffet is on a higher level then Blissey, but again, only points out why it hasn't been used as much as many people think it should be, not if it belongs in Ubers or OU.

"People use things they like" doesn't fly for me either when we're talking about the ladder, where the point is to win. I am not really surprised that there were evidently three Voltorb leads, but I don't really care because there are weighted usage statistics for a reason. And this is why I'm really tired of hearing complaints about Wobbuffet being boring/unfun because these sentiments alone have virtually no bearing on competitive battle.

This is true, but Shoddy isn't solely a competitive battling environment. No matter how much you wish it to be, there are casual battlers on Shoddy, and these casual battlers can have some success which will affect the weighted usages. There might be a large number of competitive battlers who only care about their ladder rankings, but there is also a number of people who don't care and aren't willing to adjust to Wobbuffet. Assuming Shoddy is a pure competitive environment is a bad thing to do.

And besides, try distinguishing between the fun of leading with Voltorb and the fun of cracking the top 10 on the ladder.

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone has fun cracking the top 10 of the ladder, nor does everyone have fun leading with Voltorb. Again, Shoddy isn't a pure competitive environment and you cannot assume that everyone's 'fun' is the same.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Lord_Alch, don't really want to delv into the "for fun" argument (because it doesn't go anywhere), but Jumpman's completely right that the notion of "lead voltorb is fun," has the same defensibility of "wobbufet is for (BAN ME PLEASE)," and both have the same pertenance to this discussion . . . very little.

 

[Green Mage]

^People are using wobb's low usage as an excuse to leave it unbanned. "People aren't using it because it's cheap and unfun to use" is an argument that is well in context when used as a reply to the former statement. He's not delving into the 'for fun' argument; you're missing the point. The point is that low usage does not equal unbroken.

 

[Chou Toshio]

And of course the response to that which has not been given:

Fine, then-- show me otherwise how it's broken.

Which no one has managed to do. I am not a wobb fan myself (and don't even use him, but that's just because he doesn't work with my team), but I can see the argument against wob going anywhere without a more firm argument than "wob is retarded and I don't like being called a (BAN ME PLEASE)."

 

[FastHippo]

"People use things they like" doesn't fly for me either when we're talking about the ladder, where the point is to win. ... there are weighted usage statistics for a reason. And this is why I'm really tired of hearing complaints about Wobbuffet being boring/unfun because these sentiments alone have virtually no bearing on competitive battle.

I don't believe winning is the only, or even #1 goal of the vast majority. Even if it were, people often work against their best interest in things much more important than winning pokemon battles. For that reason, I can see "boring/unfun" being a legitimate reason for Wobuffet's "low" usage. What I don't see, is it being a legitimate argument for banishment.

 

[Evisu]

Ainigma switched in CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Azumarill used Waterfall.
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE lost 37% of its health.
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE used Counter.
Azumarill lost 57% of its health.
longfellowshot's Azumarill fainted.
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE's leftovers restored its health a little!
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE restored 6% of its health.
---
longfellowshot switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE lost 48% of its health.
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE used Counter.
Garchomp lost 100% of its health.
longfellowshot's Garchomp fainted.
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE's leftovers restored its health a little!
CALL TEH WAAAAMBULANCE restored 6% of its health.
---

I'm sure many of you as I have used Wobbuffet to much greater effect than this. By now most of you know it's not Wobbuffet you lose to it's the Garchomp, Lucario, Azlef that gets a free Sword Dance or Nasty Plot. I see no reason for Wobbuffet to remain OU it lets you pick and choose which one of your opponents pokemon you want to knock out, or easily set up otherwise impossible set ups.

 

[Jumpman16]

To me, that "log" doesn't prove much more to me than the fact that longfellowshot prefers not to use a damage calculator but rather assume an evident Scarfchomp will take out a Wobbuffet that has up to 69% HP.

A 394 Attack Outrage does 41-49% to a standard Bold Wobbuffet, so even if that Wobbuffet had 48.1% HP and not the 69% it likely had (assuming the "48%" damage from the log is exactly 48.0% for simplicity), longfellowshot's Garchomp still rolled near-max damage in spite of having no chance to kill Wobby without a CH.

At its base, my point is that, if you are going to bother pasting a log, past it in full so we have it in its proper context.

I've seen the 'boring/unfun' arguments about Blissey many times. I've been visiting these boards far longer then I have been actively posting (seeing as only recently have I actually had a competitive community to participate in game). Just because something is boring/unfun/hated doesn't mean it is on the same level as another boring/unfun/hated thing. The level of hatred of Wobbuffet is on a higher level then Blissey, but again, only points out why it hasn't been used as much as many people think it should be, not if it belongs in Ubers or OU.

Which is why I have repeatedly said that's a silly stance to take because it accomplishes nothing for and has no bearing on competitive pokemon.

This is true, but Shoddy isn't solely a competitive battling environment. No matter how much you wish it to be, there are casual battlers on Shoddy, and these casual battlers can have some success which will affect the weighted usages. There might be a large number of competitive battlers who only care about their ladder rankings, but there is also a number of people who don't care and aren't willing to adjust to Wobbuffet. Assuming Shoddy is a pure competitive environment is a bad thing to do.

What's worse: assuming that Shoddy's a pure competitive environment or assuming Wobbuffet is actually too powerful for OU in spite of mediocre usage statistics over a three month timespan?

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone has fun cracking the top 10 of the ladder, nor does everyone have fun leading with Voltorb. Again, Shoddy isn't a pure competitive environment and you cannot assume that everyone's 'fun' is the same.

Considering this discussion and this forum revolve around competitive pokemon, you can see why I don't place much stock in opinion based on how fun or boring something is.

I don't believe winning is the only, or even #1 goal of the vast majority. Even if it were, people often work against their best interest in things much more important than winning pokemon battles. For that reason, I can see "boring/unfun" being a legitimate reason for Wobuffet's "low" usage. What I don't see, is it being a legitimate argument for banishment.

At the end of the day, Wobby's usage is "low", for whatever reason, and has been for three months. Which means there is not much of a reason for me not to have moved it from Limbo to OU, since not many people are even using it enough to show that it's too powerful for the standard metagame. Those of you who deem it "boring/unfun" can continue to do so, but that isn't going to change anything, as I've been saying from the very first post.

 

[Pablo]

Here's another log of Wobbuffet, in a battle where it simply nullified both Cresselia and Blissey as threats. My Wobb currently runs 220 Speed EV's to outspeed everything lower than Relaxed Swampert, but I'm looking into runing Timid + max speed to outspeed as much stuff as possible, it's jsut so broken to Encore stat ups when they can't switch.

In this battle I also amde the mistake of forgetting Aromatherapy's low PP an thus could've made Blissey KO herself.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
PaChE sent out Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
heidi_ho sent out Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
heidi_ho switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Bronzong used Gyro Ball.
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 4% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 4% of its health.
---
Forretress used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Bronzong's attack missed!
---
Forretress used Toxic Spikes.
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Bronzong's attack missed!
---
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Forretress fell asleep!
---
PaChE switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Starmie was badly poisoned!
Starmie was badly poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Starmie was hurt by Spikes!
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
heidi_ho switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Starmie's leftovers restored its health a little!
Starmie restored 6% of its health.
Starmie is hurt by poison!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
---
Starmie used Rapid Spin.
Starmie blew away the spikes!
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 1% of its health.
Heatran used Earth Power.
A critical hit!
Starmie lost 88% of its health.
PaChE's Starmie fainted.
---
PaChE: WHAT lol
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Heatran used Earth Power.
Wobbuffet lost 44% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
Heatran lost 99% of its health.
heidi_ho's Heatran fainted.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Blissey got an encore!
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
---
heidi_ho switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Cresselia makes ground moves miss with Levitate!
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Garchomp's attack missed!
---
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Cresselia used Calm Mind.
Cresselia's special attack was raised.
Cresselia's special defence was raised.
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Cresselia used Calm Mind.
Cresselia's special attack was raised.
Cresselia's special defence was raised.
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Cresselia got an encore!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Cresselia used Calm Mind.
Cresselia's special attack was raised.
Cresselia's special defence was raised.
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Cresselia used Calm Mind.
Cresselia's special attack was raised.
Cresselia's special defence was raised.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Cresselia lost 86% of its health.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
Cresselia used Calm Mind.
Cresselia's special attack was raised.
Cresselia's special defence was raised.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
Cresselia lost 20% of its health.
heidi_ho's Cresselia fainted.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!
---
heidi_ho switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
PaChE switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 13% of its health.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Forretress fell asleep!
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Bronzong used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 1% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Blissey got an encore!
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
---
heidi_ho switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Pointed stones dug into Celebi.
Celebi lost 12% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
It's not very effective...
Celebi lost 20% of its health.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Zapdos was seeded!
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 12% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Zapdos used Hidden Power.
Blissey lost 7% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Blissey regained health!
Blissey restored 7% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Discharge.
Blissey lost 11% of its health.
Blissey used Stealth Rock.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Blissey regained health!
Blissey restored 7% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Seismic Toss.
Wobbuffet lost 19% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Bronzong.
Bronzong lost 6% of its health.
Blissey used Stealth Rock.
But it failed!
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Pointed stones dug into Forretress.
Forretress lost 12% of its health.
Bronzong used Hypnosis.
Forretress fell asleep!
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
heidi_ho switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Blissey got an encore!
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 0% of its health.
---
PaChE switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Blissey used Aromatherapy.
---
heidi_ho switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Pointed stones dug into Celebi.
Celebi lost 12% of its health.
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Fire Fang.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 75% of its health.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
Celebi flinched!
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 88% of its health.
heidi_ho's Blissey fainted.
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
---
heidi_ho switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Deoxys-e.
Deoxys-e lost 12% of its health.
PaChE switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
Wobbuffet lost 26% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
Wobbuffet lost 25% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
Deoxys-e lost 88% of its health.
heidi_ho's Deoxys-e fainted.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
heidi_ho has left the room.
PaChE wins!


Sorry for the lack of commentary.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Which no one has managed to do. I am not a wobb fan myself (and don't even use him, but that's just because he doesn't work with my team), but I can see the argument against wob going anywhere without a more firm argument than "wob is retarded and I don't like being called a (BAN ME PLEASE)."

I actually don't give a shit about what random internet kids call me, I was simply using that as a recent example to show how people just don't want to adjust to Wobbuffet. Read the following that I posted on the previous page:

Thats just how it goes. People aren't adjusting to Wobb because a number of them are putting their fingers in their ears and pretending nothing has changed. It doesn't mean anything for tier placement, but that doesn't prevent it from being true.

Now for jump:

Which is why I have repeatedly said that's a silly stance to take because it accomplishes nothing for and has no bearing on competitive pokemon.

And I think this is total bullshit. We've seen these usage statistics used as a basis for what gets banned/unbanned and what tiers they get moved around into. How can you ignore the fact that Shoddy (and even Smogon itself) can't be considered a pure competitive environment, and how this does affect usage statistics? If Smogon was a pure competitive environment, we wouldn't see anyone in the RMT forum going "I don't want to use Blissey because its too over used, so I'm going to try to use Random UU Poke for the same exact role".

What's worse: assuming that Shoddy's a pure competitive environment or assuming Wobbuffet is actually too powerful for OU in spite of mediocre usage statistics over a three month timespan?

My point is that the usage statistics are a flawed method of gauging the power of a Pokemon, because the community itself isn't a pure competitive one.

Considering this discussion and this forum revolve around competitive pokemon, you can see why I don't place much stock in opinion based on how fun or boring something is.

Despite how that might affect your precious usage statistics? Obviously saying "Wobbuffet is boring, so it should be banned" is a flawed and wrong argument. But to say "Wobbuffet isn't over powered because of its usage statistics" is flawed because now you're lumping everyone that uses Shoddy into the same pile and trying to act like everyone in that pile has the same goal, winning by any means necessary.

Again for those that ignored part of my post on the previous page:
I'm not arguing that Wobbuffet is broken based on boring it is, I'm merely pointing out the reason why its usage is so low despite having such an effective strategy in speed EVs+Tickle+CB Pursuit.

 

[the_artic_one]

My point is that the usage statistics are a flawed method of gauging the power of a Pokemon, because the community itself isn't a pure competitive one.

Except that the statistics are weighted such that the top of the ladder (i.e. the pure competitive community) have the most effect on ratings.

Do you have a problem with the weighting algorithm? Would you like to propose a better one? Perhaps we should only go by the top 100 on the ladder? Or are the people who win constantly "not purely competitive"?

 

[Cathy]

I've experimented with more sophisticated weighting algorithms and the verdict is that it makes little to no difference near the top of the list (which is what we are interested in here).

The main reason I haven't switched over to one of the more sophisticated ones is that it's pretty slow to run these things, and I'd have to update the web site for all past months.

Also, the main argument isn't predicated on low usage meaning it's not powerful (as some people seem to believe). The low usage is just something to consider.

 

[FastHippo]

Also, the main argument isn't predicated on low usage meaning it's not powerful (as some people seem to believe). The low usage is just something to consider.

Is it possible to display the won loss record of teams that had Wobuffet on them, and a few more OU pokemon as a point of comparism?

 

[umbarsc]

It was my understanding that power determines uber --> OU (or vice versa) and BL --> UU (and vice versa), and that usage only affected OU --> UU (and of course vice versa). The "usage" rule was only put into place to stop a top 10 in usage OU Pokemon from being seen in UU for fun, and that it had no direct relevance on a Pokemon's power. Is this correct?

 

[Jumpman16]

And I think this is total bullshit. We've seen these usage statistics used as a basis for what gets banned/unbanned and what tiers they get moved around into. How can you ignore the fact that Shoddy (and even Smogon itself) can't be considered a pure competitive environment, and how this does affect usage statistics? If Smogon was a pure competitive environment, we wouldn't see anyone in the RMT forum going "I don't want to use Blissey because its too over used, so I'm going to try to use Random UU Poke for the same exact role".

You realize that you're implying that:

1) a good, helpful RMT that sets out to help one's team win at competitive pokemon actually panders to those who say stuff like "I don't want to use Blissey because its too over used, so I'm going to try to use Random UU Poke for the same exact role"

2) that the people who think that way are the same people who strive to win at competitive pokemon

3) that, at the basest level, that Smogon doesn't actually strive to be as pure a competitive community as it can, right?

My point is that the usage statistics are a flawed method of gauging the power of a Pokemon, because the community itself isn't a pure competitive one.

If your underlying premise is that this isn't a purely competitive community, then I would ask you why it matters whether Wobbuffet is beneficial or detrimental to the community purely from a competitive standpoint.

And if your answer to that would be something along the lines of "perhaps the community values fun more than you're giving credit", I would remind you that battling does exist outside of the ladder.

Despite how that might affect your precious usage statistics? Obviously saying "Wobbuffet is boring, so it should be banned" is a flawed and wrong argument. But to say "Wobbuffet isn't over powered because of its usage statistics" is flawed because now you're lumping everyone that uses Shoddy into the same pile and trying to act like everyone in that pile has the same goal, winning by any means necessary.

Have you seriously already forgotten why I made this thread? I first posted what I think is the most threatening Wobbuffet set for all the community to see and hopefully use. I then urged the community for pages and pages to use Wobbuffet, reminding/informing the community that nothing could prompt Colin to have a reason to remove Wobbuffet from ladder play if it weren't actually used. And I have also recently relaxed the rule on posting battle logs featuring Wobbuffet so we can get to the bottom of how strong it really is in the standard metagame. In my mind, there's no other way to break the stalemate between "Wobby is too strong for OU for [subjective reason]" vs "Not very many people are using Wobbuffet so how can we tell if it's too powerful for OU" (the latter being objective in comparison, of course).

 

[phalanx]

why is wobbuffet broken? having seen the power of things like DDtar, agiligross (that speed turns it into a sweeper), i dont have logs but i have found using it to encore toxic (a good idea to use toxic if someone encores ;)) then use that move to send in a free setup, agiligross or CM jirachi, in this case due to immunity to poison and the fact they HAVE to switch, these can take a good advantage from the situation, you could do the same with lucario and get a swords dance.
ok now take what i have said above and implement it to something quickish, off the top of my head i will use charizard for this example.
wobbufet used encore (pokemon is now locked in a move),
wobbufet switches out to charizard.
charizard uses substitute while opponant switches
now if this is faster, charizard uses belly drum (throw on a salac for good measure)
sweep my friend, could also work with linoone.

yes my focus is on encore and i know this could happen with say shuckle, but the differance is you can predict an encore and switch with shuckle, with wobby its a free set up turn.

 

[Jumpman16]

i know i'm being hard on you guys but please, please stay on topic. if you do not think you can add anything to the discussion of how wobbuffet has strategically affected the metagame in the last two months (read: no theorymon), then please do not post.

there's a reason i was so hard on subversion and his claims that every pokemon either dies or is rendered set-up bait is because it is theorymon and not at all what actually plays out in actual competitive battle. the latter is what this thread—and, more importantly, this community—is in dire need of.

anyone can come up with examples off the top of their head, dont post theoymon in this thread anymore

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I'll try to avoid posting entire logs, as the only part that really matters is how Wobb works:

Jirachi used Thunder.
It's super effective!
Skarmory lost 66% of its health.
Lord Alchemy's Skarmory fainted.
Jirachi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jirachi restored 6% of its health.
---
Here I was caught of guard seeing as most Jirachi's are Zen/U-turn, but I saw this fellow use U-turn earlier in the match which basically gives me a free kill with Wobbuffet.

---
Lord Alchemy switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Jirachi used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 23% of its health.
Random Internet Guy switched in GreenZor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Counter.
Scizor lost 88% of its health.
Random Internet Guy's Scizor fainted.

You're not so bulky now, dead Scizor. U-turn isn't a great counter when you do Super Effective damage to something with a crap load of HP and the ability to do double damage back. It can be rather easy to counter U-turns, especially Jirachi ones. I also countered a Gallades Night Slash immediately after to OHKO it, but that was just a miscalculation on Random Internet Guy's part.

As for standard Ticklefett shenanigans, do we really need logs? Slow tank thing comes out, does a non-attack move like Softboiled, Roost, Stealth Rocks, and gets locked into it, 6 tickles, out comes CB Pursuit thing. I've been enjoying a Choice Banded Metagross for my Pursuit flavors, but have thought about going the T-Tar route, just seems easier to get Metagross in opening up more Tickle opportunities.

I've done this to Bronzongs, Dusknoirs, Blisseys, even managed to revenge Tickle a Celebi (Encore Leech Seed and Tickle until dead, pursuit after) and I even got a damn Gliscor. I'm sure there are other random tanks I'm forgetting, but whatever. Seems like all we get for talking about Ticklefett is the removal of Event moves though.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I personally think it depends on how you battle or what team you use (as the case with Pokemon -always-). For example, I enjoy the whole Tickle Wobbuffet thing when I'm just randomly spamming 6 random offensive Poke teams cause most likely every single one of them has Lucario. Choice Pursuit my Tickle Poke, and Lucario gets even more chances to hurt shit up. A team like that, you sacrifice shit to get other shit up. It's hard as it is normally to stop Lucario or like Garchomp, so Wobbuffet isn't anything different. And common walls to those two are like Cresselia or Mesprit etc w/e you might use a CBTar to get rid of those. Well CBTar pretty much will fuck over Wobbuffet after it killed something. You let something die to help set something else up. It's just Pokemon.

If I'm feeling stall team ish, then let me be stalled. Most likely they'll be Toxic Spikes up, so it's not like Wobbuffet is going to try to Encore PP waste me. Then you have random shit like Shed Shell Skarmory, who can pretty much use any move on it then switch. Celebi can have as much as the Wobbu user, since it's down to predicting that Celebi will use Leech Seed and you Counter, or U-Turn and you Encore. It's just what it seems like, it's just Pokemon.

But just to be safe, any argument used against Wobbuffet can probably be used for it and then we'll go in a never ending hypocritical circle of posts so..