Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[Colonel M]

Correction on your Special Attack: 269.

Well here is my general opinion. To me, it is good that we are testing Pokemon that could be utilized in OU. We've allowed Deoxys-S after much consideration, and now we are discussing about Wobbuffet. A lot of people see Wobbuffet as an auto-Uber; due to the ability to use Encore, Tickle, and CounterCoat. AND, a lot of people hate that we're testing someone that hasn't seen a whole lot of play in Ubers. What many don't realize is that by testing every "low Uber", we can help determine "What is Uber?" and also figure out how OU and UU should work as.

But enough of that, I'll have my input on Wobbuffet like everyone has here. We can already find the advantages here:

- Shadow Tag
- Encore
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Tickle
- Bulky enough (by HP) to take most hits.

So by these comparisons, we see that Wobbuffet is the "ultimate trapper". The two moves stated above: Encore and Tickle, are a devastating combo paired with Pursuit users like Heracross and Tyranitar. Tickle also makes struggling easy to force faints (remember that Tickle lowers your Defense too). Counter and Mirror Coat are also advantages as well. With a Jolly nature and a lot of Speed EVs, outspeeding walls is not a problem.

Obviously there are cons to such a great trapper. The first being the obvious: no real attacking moves. Counter and Mirror Coat have negative priority which means Wobbuffet has to suffer a hit before he can unleash hell. The next is something that a lot of people don't realize: the crappy Psychic typing. This alone puts Wobbuffet in dismay as moves like Crunch and X-Scissor are going to hurt a lot. Misprediction also does not help, also another disadvantage. Say it's a Tyranitar versus a Wobbuffet, and the Wobbuffet user is unaware of the moves that Tyranitar carries. The "safest" assumption is that it is a Choice Band, so you would obviously Counter to take down Tyranitar... until you see Dragon Dance and start to worry. A bit of a niche situation, but prediction is somewhat needed in my opinion to have Wobbuffet work.

There are still more, believe it or not. Toxic Spikes are really unfriendly and easily wear down Wobbuffet. You could obviously use a Spinner, but the opponnent could also pack a Ghost, another enemy to our Wobbly friend. Then there's Taunt, another niche situation that can put you in danger. Finally, abuse of typing helps a lot. TyraniBoah can still put the pressure with Dark Pulse (Mirror Coat fails against him) and Dusknoir can also use Shadow Sneak / Punch on Wobbuffet (Counter fails against him)... and then Spiritomb almost has a hayday because Counter nor Mirror Coat work on him. And FINALLY, a lot of Pokemon have received high powered moves that still can make Wobbuffet worry a lot in what he will do.

So many people seek to find solutions to prevent Wobbuffet from "stopping" teams. There are some things that you can use to prevent you from being "Wobba fodder"...

- Use Super Effective moves against it.
- Taunt.
- Shed Shell every Pokemon (really irrelavant)...
- Powerful hits.
- Toxic Spikes.
- Take advantage of Counter / Mirror Coat immunities (basically look at physical Ghosts... or Special Dark types. The former is hard to find sadly).

I'm praying that I didn't have a bad post so... but seriously I am all for the continuation of testing Wobbuffet for all reasons to help determine if he really is Uber or OU. And I'm trying my best not to fully theorymon everything I've posted... >_>;

To continue on, I've used Wobbuffet a couple of times, and I really love the Tickle strategy. Packing a Tyranitar makes it just as epic too. Another stratgy that could work that I'm willing to test is Choice Band Duggy on top of it with Pursuit. Too bad Gengar has no way of escaping now...

 

[scorchedsky]

Metalkid's calculator says it's 266 :( Does 269 come from the real damage formula?

 

[Colonel M]

@scorch: yes. Metalkid's overshoots a bit...

 

[SubVersion]

Who has more than one or two things on their team slower than a jolly wobba? Also, if you do it once, they'll predict you and use a damaging move before you switch in wobba.

"If you do it once", you've killed one of their Pokemon and still have a perfectly healthy Wobbuffet to use. Even if they bring out another wall later on and predict your Wobb switch, most walls generally don't have stellar attacking stats (at least not enough to 2HKO him) and are just potentially another kill under Wobb's belt even if they do use an attacking move.

The only difference is that the slow wall "can't do anything about it." So what? Does that open up room in the metagame for less defensive, yet faster walls? If so, is it possible that this could actually increase variety by decreasing the use of slow walls who are susceptible to JollyWob stall? I know this is pure theorymon, but this is what people should be figuring out by playing. If JollyWob beats slow walls merciless, and there are no alternatives, then we have a case for brokenness.

What faster alternatives would you suggest? Keeping in mind that as well as outspeeding Wobb they also have to do a similar job to the walls that they're replacing (ie. Skarmory's replacement has to be able to stop non-Fire Blast/Fang Garchomps).

 

[Bliksem]

well we have general builds do we not, specific EV's to suit the pokemon in general useage terms, breaking from that to counter one pokemon is over centralizing.

What are you talking about? The only 'general' builds that exist are 252/252 builds or builds meant to maximize defenses on both sides. Everything else has specific purposes. For example, the Vaporeon on the analysis has 68 Special Attack. The purpose is specifically for bulkier versions of Garchomp. The analysis even recommends 48 speed EVs to outspeed Skarmory.

The analysis only provides builds that are deemed to be most effective. That doesn't mean that only those builds should be used. You do not have to go by them.

I also think this highlights the point that people don't want to change from what they've been told.

 

[merubin]

The analysis only provides builds that are deemed to be most effective. That doesn't mean that only those builds should be used. You do not have to go by them.

I also think this highlights the point that people don't want to change from what they've been told.

To add to that a little, quite a few Pokemon in quite a few teams would do better to have changed EVs (and/or a move or two) than to just use Smogon Dex Standard. Making intelligent EV changes (or a move or two) can help a lot in a team actually working together and supporting itself, as opposed to just being six Pokemon you picked off a list and mashed together haphazardly.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

To add to that a little, quite a few Pokemon in quite a few teams would do better to have changed EVs (and/or a move or two) than to just use Smogon Dex Standard. Making intelligent EV changes (or a move or two) can help a lot in a team actually working together and supporting itself, as opposed to just being six Pokemon you picked off a list and mashed together haphazardly.

And this is why people bitch about OU's and how UU is a more diverse environment, because all the UU entries are generally built with the UU environment in mind so when they get shoved on their team, they perform shitty in OU.

 

[Purple Jesus]

I just spent an hour typing up a post about this log and then my computer dies on me JUST as I was going to post it. I still want to post it as it showcases several things about Wobbuffet but Im not going into as much detail as I originally did as I don't have another hour to edit this monster log.

Anyway, a ladder match with me on my side account (mn_wild) against anajalim (which I found out at the end is IPL's side account). Both our teams highlight Wobbuffet and what you can create from smart uses of Wobbuffet. Ill comment in bold and cut out long parts of the log.

Just a summary of what I try to do each battle with this team. I try to bring out their special walls early. (ideally it is Blissey - and shoddy battle usage shows it generally is) and I use a specially tailored Wobbuffet spread (I run 192 Speed EV's to outrun Blissey handily. I used to run less speed but I ran across a Blissey running 8 Speed EV's JUST for Wobbuffet's! I'm here to just present what I found with my testing, but I will throw out that it feels like overcentralizing when Blissey's and Wobbuffet get in speed wars. Though, I do admit speed wars are apart of the game as I have run across countless Celebi running 40 or 44 speed just to outrun the 36 speed Celebi - so I guess it is just a part of the game) When I bring out their special walls I attempt to catch those special walls in less than ideal moves to Encore them and force them into Struggle or Counter/Mirror Coat deaths. Anyway here are the teams:

mn_wild
Raikou, Wobbuffet, Heatran, Starmie, Zapdos, Bronzong

anajalim
Wobbuffet, Blissey, Zapdos, Celebi, Forretress, Deoxys-S


Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
anajalim sent out Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
mn_wild sent out Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Raikou used Thunderbolt.
Wobbuffet lost 36% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Raikou got an encore!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---

Wobbuffet forces me to make a game breaking move on Turn 1! I almost decide to CM since I've set up several Raikou sweeps after eliminating the proper special walls with my team and I don't really want to lose Raikou on Turn 2 to a Wobbuffet. IF I decide to CM here he would go to Forretress, set down Toxic Spikes, and my team would have surely lost this battle because Wobbuffet and Raikou are pretty much useless when Toxic Spikes inflict them. I make the smart move and accept Raikou's fate and eat the Mirror Coat death next turn.

Raikou used Thunderbolt.
Wobbuffet lost 38% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
Raikou lost 100% of its health.
mn_wild's Raikou fainted.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
mn_wild switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Zapdos used Toxic.
Wobbuffet was badly poisoned!
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
But it failed!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
---

Another highlight of Wobbuffet! How can you beat Wobbuffet? Well if you can Toxic a Wobbuffet you end its ability to force you into Struggle or its ability to Tickle you down to -6 Def. HOWEVER, if he had Encore'd the Toxic here I could have lost the battle again! Within the first several turns of the match Wobbuffet is creating game breaking moves! If he encore's the Toxic he then gets to bring in Forretress freely - setup Toxic Spikes - and end my Wobbuffet's ability to trap and kill his special wall (Blissey). Obviously Wobbuffet's aren't always involved in such game breaking moves like this in all cases - but it is just an interesting log highlighting Wobbuffet so I had to bring it out. My team is really weak to Toxic Spikes and I just never had the heart to fit Rapid Spin on Starmie (I run a bulky spread but with Surf/Ice Beam/Tbolt/Recover - when blissey is gone this thing wrecks teams).

anajalim switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Zapdos used Toxic.
Blissey was badly poisoned!
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
---

I stupidly Toxic again - I could have lost again if he had stayed to Encore Toxic or gone to Forretress. At the time I obviously didn't realize this, but geez.. this is intense stuff when I look back in hindsight.

But, Aha! The special wall my team tries to bring out. I decide to scout its moveset because I don't want to bring Wobbuffet out too early and kill his chances of eliminating Blissey. I scout for the Thunder Wave by bringing in Bronzong as he doesn't mind it at all.

mn_wild switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Blissey used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Blissey doesn't run Thunder Wave it seems and I wish I had brought Wobbuffet in to get that Stealth Rock move and Encore it. However, if I can predict a softboiled that also gets Wobbuffet in easily enough to Encore trap Softboiled into a Struggle death.

anajalim switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
mn_wild switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
---

I NEARLY click on Stealth Rock with my Bronzong. However, I remember the countless times I have done the same thing to opposing Bronzong - they Stealth Rock/Equake/Gyro Ball/etc. and I bring in Wobbuffe to outspeed and Encore the move until Bronzong struggles or I counter him to death. I remember Wobbuffet's presence and bring in Heatran to try and get his Blissey out so I can setup my own trap.

anajalim switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Heatran used Fire Blast.
Blissey lost 21% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---

21%... Will he Softboiled to give me a chance to Encore struggle it? Im going to take the risk

mn_wild switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 27% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Blissey got an encore!
Blissey used Softboiled.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---

Gotcha! Now when I eliminate Blissey my team of special attacking walls (Zapdos, Starmie, Heatran) can hopefully close this game out.

*snip*

I cut out some log as I just stall him into this unfortunate result...
---
Blissey used Struggle.
Wobbuffet lost 2% of its health.
Blissey was hit by recoil!
Blissey lost 17% of its health.
anajalim's Blissey fainted.
Wobbuffet used Counter.
But there was no target!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 2% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
mn_wild switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Forretress used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---

He gets his layer of Toxic Spikes down to hamper my Wobbuffet swap ins. I unfortunately used up 4 Encore PP to stall out blissey so my remaining 4 Encore won't be enough to force Toxic Spikes 32 PP into Struggle - but I take the free swap to Heatran to cause some mayhem without Blissey around!

anajalim switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Heatran used Fire Blast.
A critical hit!
Wobbuffet lost 38% of its health.
anajalim's Wobbuffet fainted.
---
anajalim switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Heatran used Fire Blast.
Zapdos lost 55% of its health.
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
Heatran lost 31% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
---
Heatran used Fire Blast.
Zapdos lost 51% of its health.
anajalim's Zapdos fainted.
---
anajalim switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
mn_wild switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Bronzong.
Bronzong lost 6% of its health.
Deoxys-e used Superpower.
Bronzong lost 25% of its health.
Deoxys-e's attack was lowered.
Deoxys-e's defence was lowered.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---

I force him to shuffle around a little bit and kill his Wobbuffet and Zapdos in the process. He does some invaluable damage to my Heatran with Zapdos though as DeoE might be able to take him out with SuperPower now(which this is one of my first battles testing out Scarf Heatran over a ResTalk one and it worked out well for me to limit Zapdos damage - unfortunately for me the bulky ResTalk Heatran would have been sweeping just like my Scarf one - but with the ability to recover damage :/) I carry the counter to DeoE in Bronzong though and bring him in.

Here is where I make a mistake though. I am just an average battler and should have jumped all over this chance. He is reeling from his Blissey/Zapdos/Wobbuffet being taken out and I forced him to show his hand with his sweeper in DeoE waaaay before he would like to (otherwise Heatran would just keep rolling through the team). Bringing in Bronzong to take the SuperPower was smart, but I should have realized that he wasn't going to risk me using Gyro Ball to eliminate his sweeper (and all hopes) of winning this game. I stupidly decide to Stealth Rock on the switch instead of swapping back to Heatran for a chance at another Fire Blast to take out something and essentially win the game. This isn't really relevant to Wobbuffet - but I am living and learning from my mistakes and just pointing it out.

I'm also quite greedy and run the Life Orbed Surf/Tbolt/Ice Beam/Recover Bulky Starmie as I almost need all the moves - even though Rapid Spin would be invalubale to my team too. Thats part of my own dilemma and team tweaks that I surely will continue to go through as I keep testing Wobbuffet. Back to boring log and more Wobbuffet comments later

anajalim switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Bronzong used Stealth Rock.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---

WHY did I not go to Heatran? I would have ended it all right here as something would go down to Fire Blast (I hadn't seen Celebi but the fact that the unknown Pokemon didn't come into Heatran's Fire Blast rampage earlier should have alerted me it obviously wouldn't appreciate a Fire Blast either). A horrible mistake that NEARLY costs me the match.

Ill put this note here - IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE ME CONTINUALLY BLUNDER AND MAKE DUMB MISTAKES THAT NEARLY COST ME THE MATCH SKIP TO THE BOLD/ITALIC Comment farther in the match - my Wobbuffet makes a reappearence.

mn_wild switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Zapdos.
Zapdos lost 25% of its health.
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
Forretress lost 40% of its health.
Forretress used Rapid Spin.
Forretress blew away the spikes!
Zapdos lost 3% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
It's not very effective...
Celebi lost 16% of its health.
Celebi is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
Zapdos used Toxic.
Zapdos's attack missed!
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
Celebi lost 30% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 3% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Toxic.
Celebi was badly poisoned!
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Zapdos was seeded!
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 12% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Celebi is hurt by poison!
Celebi lost 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Zapdos used Hidden Power.
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 10% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Forretress regained health!
Forretress restored 14% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
mn_wild switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran was hurt by Spikes!
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Ugh, FINALLY bring Heatran in way too late - and he has 18% of spikes damage up (3/16) and Heatran can't live another swap in to beat his Celebi. This mistake just results in a stupid stall war that I win at the end because Zapdos Pressure ability stalls his Celebi out.

Heatran used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Forretress lost 82% of its health.
anajalim's Forretress fainted.
---
anajalim switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
Deoxys-e used Superpower.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 19% of its health.
mn_wild's Heatran fainted.
Deoxys-e's attack was lowered.
Deoxys-e's defence was lowered.
---
mn_wild switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Zapdos.
Zapdos lost 25% of its health.
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Zapdos lost 49% of its health.
Zapdos used Roost.
Zapdos restored 50% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
---
mn_wild switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Bronzong.
Bronzong lost 6% of its health.
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 9% of its health.
Bronzong was frozen solid!
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Bronzong is frozen solid!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Celebi's attack missed!
Bronzong is frozen solid!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
---
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Bronzong was seeded!
Bronzong is frozen solid!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
Bronzong's health was sapped by leech seed!
Bronzong lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 3% of its health.
---
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 13% of its health.
Bronzong is frozen solid!
Bronzong's leftovers restored its health a little!
Bronzong restored 6% of its health.
Bronzong's health was sapped by leech seed!
Bronzong lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Bronzong lost 13% of its health.
Bronzong was defrosted!
Bronzong used Explosion.
Celebi lost 78% of its health.
mn_wild's Bronzong fainted.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---

My lack of skill keep showing as I explode on Celebi. My DeoE counter is Bronzong... As I said earlier I am an average player - live and learn! Looking back at logs helps a ton though, anyway for people skimming for my Wobbuffet comments it's coming soon bolded and italicized to find it easily.

mn_wild switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
Starmie was poisoned!
Starmie was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Starmie was hurt by Spikes!
Starmie lost 19% of its health.
anajalim switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
Starmie used Ice Beam.
Deoxys-e lost 58% of its health.
Starmie lost 10% of its health.
Starmie is hurt by poison!
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
---
Deoxys-e used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Starmie lost 47% of its health.
mn_wild's Starmie fainted.
---
mn_wild switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet was poisoned!
Wobbuffet was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Wobbuffet was hurt by Spikes!
Wobbuffet lost 19% of its health.
anajalim switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Wobbuffet used Encore.
But it failed!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---

SHED SHELL on Deo-E to prevent Wobbuffet from trapping it!? I think I said I was here just to present this log and my thoughts on Wobbuffet... but shed shell on Deo-E just for Wobbuffets (and Dugtrio's using Sucker Punch I guess) just screams overcentralization to me, and this is even when the shoddy battle statistics show he is barely even in the OU range of usage!

I told myself I would just limit my post to the log (and I indicated that earlier in my post I think) and what Wobbuffet can do for teams built around him, but if anyone really cares heres my opinon on him too:

I want to make an assumption that Wobbuffet in the right hands with the right player WILL ruin the OU metagame, but my assumption doesn't count for much. It took me a week to get used to using Wobbuffet and finely tone my team to take advantage of his presence. Not only has he acted as a special wall killer to set up my Raikou (Gengar/Yanmega were in that spot too)/Starmie sweeps, but he can also live to revenge kill or against stall teams he might get lucky enough to Encore stall 2 pokemon to struggle death/mirror coat/counter deaths. Of course, I assume people that make an effort to CENTER a team on Wobbuffet will succeed in using him and abusing him to hurt the OU metagame. In my OPINION and from my ASSUMPTION (so take it as you want - in the end its only an opinion from one person) Wobbuffet should be uber. I think (notice key word "think" - please don't rip me for having an opinion on a pokemon I tested for a week straight - if you don't agree with it then let me know but don't rip me for it - and only disagree with me if you yourself have put effort into testing it - thanks)I think the reason he suffers badly in shoddy battle rankings are people don't know how to use him or don't put enough effort into him. It took me three days to get the hang of using him properly! The arguments that Wobbuffet is "easy to use" are garbage in my opinion. Using him as a revenge killer is brainless and "easy to use" I guess. Utilizing his ability to trap, the ability to tweak natures and EV's, and centering a team around him is difficult - but in the right player's hands it will ruin the metagame. This log shows glimpses of everything he does - from my mentions of putzy speed wars with Blissey's so he can't trap and kill them to deciding between what move to let him Encore -- if I had given IPL the chance to setup the toxic spikes before killing his Blissey I would have surely lost. The fear of Wobbuffet trapping and killing Deo-E forced a shed shell onto him so Deo-E can't be revenge killed by Wobbuffet and hurt IPL's chance to sweep. This log also shows glimpses of Wobbuffet that do make him OU material too. The move Toxic/Toxic Spikes can efficiently shut him down. Shed Shell is an item that can stop him - is it ideal? - not at all but if you have a sweeper that is prone to Wobbuffet maybe it should become an item that needs to be considered if he does go OU. The battle also doesn't show any other ways like taunting, etc - but Colonel M lays it all so well in his post I'll stop here.

So after testing him for a week I believe he is Uber material still. Thats my opinion agree with it, disagree with it - but if you disagree with it PLEASE have actually used it or worked with him for a week or so - if you play tested him for less than 3 days I am going to say your opinion of him in incomplete and I won't really care.

And if you cared about the log I cut about 40 turns of Zapdos versus Celebi stall war (thanks Pressure saving me from my noobish mistakes!) It was a fun battle even if pretty stally and lengthy

mn_wild: haha wow
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Wobbuffet was seeded!
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 16% of its health.
---
mn_wild switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Zapdos.
Zapdos lost 25% of its health.
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Zapdos was seeded!
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 12% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Deoxys-e (lvl 100 Deoxys-e).
Deoxys-e is exerting its pressure!
Zapdos used Roost.
Zapdos restored 50% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Deoxys-e regained health!
Deoxys-e restored 20% of its health.
---
Deoxys-e used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Zapdos lost 51% of its health.
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
Deoxys-e lost 62% of its health.
anajalim's Deoxys-e fainted.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
---
anajalim switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Zapdos used Toxic.
Zapdos's attack missed!
Celebi used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Zapdos lost 13% of its health.
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 12% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Roost.
Zapdos restored 50% of its health.
Celebi used Grass Knot.
Zapdos lost 28% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
Celebi restored 7% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Roost.
Zapdos restored 50% of its health.
Celebi used Grass Knot.
Zapdos lost 28% of its health.
Zapdos's leftovers restored its health a little!
Zapdos restored 6% of its health.
Zapdos's health was sapped by leech seed!
Zapdos lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---

*snip* cut out a ton of turns here to skip to the end just for some closure to the battle log, even if it has nothing to do with Wobbuffet :). Just a good showcase of how skill affects the game. If I had been a little more skilled and brought Heatran in sooner I would have handily won 2/3-0 and won this match easily. But I'm always picking up new things and hopefully I can keep improving. Thanks for reading (if you even bothered after my Wobbuffet parts).
Zapdos used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 30% of its health.
Celebi used Struggle.
Zapdos lost 7% of its health.
Celebi was hit by recoil!
Celebi lost 14% of its health.
anajalim's Celebi fainted.
mn_wild wins!


As I said in the beginning of my post I had some more content too it, but I don't feel like taking up too much more time (always save your documents as you work on them in 5 minute intervals! I always hated people saying "save your work every chance you get!" but it would have saved me dearly here :( ) I think I got to my main points: Thanks for reading it out and listening to my opinion!

Final Edit (for now):
-I am not a great writer (Im going into Accounting - working with numbers fits my style better :)), and I am sorry if this comes across as sloppy and a bit disjointed. Thank you for taking the time to read it and decipher my thoughts.
-My opinions seem unorganized and just shoved in there with poor structure. When I have time I want to edit that section out and make it more visually appealing and deciraphable.
-An argument I would say I agree with (that is better thought out than mine and easier to comprehend the point) would be imperfectluck's arguments. He has some posts in the policy review forum I would quote, but people can check them out themselves. The second post within the new Wobbuffet topic in that forum is quite simple yet the post makes some solid statements

 

[kd24]

I think Shed Shell on Deoxys was also for Dugtrio who will ohko and hit first the standard deoxys with sucker punch. So you cant say it is only for wobbuffet and over centeralizing.

 

[imperfectluck]

I could have played that battle a lot better than I did, I'll admit, lol, I got complacent because of my winning streak on ladder. That was only my 4th loss in 60-odd battles since I created that account last night, and I'm already in the top 10 on shoddybattle leaderboard again, expect to see me claim the #1 spot again soon. That was a great match.

 

[Carl]

Wow. Awesome post Purple Jesus. That's the kind of stuff we're looking for in this topic. Great battle, great commentary.

 

[zxn666]

- Take advantage of Counter / Mirror Coat immunities (basically look at physical Ghosts... or Special Dark types. The former is hard to find sadly).

I've just noticed something, Spiritomb is immune to both Counter's fighting type and Mirror Coat's psychic type, and he's also got pursuit to catch switching Wobbuffets. Wouldn't he simply murder all Wobbuffets?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I've just noticed something, Spiritomb is immune to both Counter's fighting type and Mirror Coat's psychic type, and he's also got pursuit to catch switching Wobbuffets. Wouldn't he simply murder all Wobbuffets?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only thing Wobb can do here is PP stall and Destiny Bond. Spiritomb does wreck Wobb face most of the time though.

 

[Cathy]

I know this is (sort of) my fault but that Struggle from Encore business continues to be a bug. (The correct mechanics is that Encore ends). It might not have mattered but I feel it is worth clarifying that.

As for why this is only "sort of" my fault... I don't see anybody volunteering to fix this issue, even though it's fairly trivial. The expectation is that bearzly or I should fix it, even though there are surely people in this community capable of helping us fix bugs in Shoddy Battle and sending in patches. The source code is available so that you can help. I will probably fix it myself sooner or later, however.

The following is merely a thought. It is not implying anything that you think it is. Do not suggest that my implication is wrong, because there is no implication.

I am curious why only IPL and a couple of other well known people have been able to capitalise on Wobbuffet to climb the ladder. You would think that after being destroyed by this strategy, it would be starting to catch on... as far as I can tell it isn't. It is a bit curious.

But as I said there is no implication here. Do not assume there is one. It is merely an observation.

 

[Syberia]

I've just noticed something, Spiritomb is immune to both Counter's fighting type and Mirror Coat's psychic type, and he's also got pursuit to catch switching Wobbuffets. Wouldn't he simply murder all Wobbuffets?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

He can't switch in. You're either going to have to sacrifice a pokemon or use U-Turn to get him in, and if it's the former, then Wobbuffet has already done its job.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I am curious why only IPL and a couple of other well known people have been able to capitalise on Wobbuffet to climb the ladder. You would think that after being destroyed by this strategy, it would be starting to catch on... as far as I can tell it isn't. It is a bit curious.

Because people hate Wobbuffet. I know that the competitive community might find that a difficult concept, usage based on likes, but it is true. A number of people hate Wobbuffet and refuse to use it.

I've recently attempted to cash in on this strategy, and I'm busy focusing in my team and what it needs help with, it still worked very well. I've been using a CB Metagross to finish off my Tickle+Pursuit combo to great success. But surprisingly, I was called an offensive term that I won't be posting here for using it.

Thats just how it goes. People aren't adjusting to Wobb because a number of them are putting their fingers in their ears and pretending nothing has changed. It doesn't mean anything for tier placement, but that doesn't prevent it from being true.

Even if I manage to nail a proper team for this, I won't be rising the ranks anytime soon namely because I don't spend that much time on Shoddy. I prefer in game battling and have other things to do, so I only hop on when I'm bored or testing random stuff I'm going to be using in game. I don't really care about my ladder ranking when it has been shown that the ladder is a potential testing ground for the metagame, more or less invalidating the ladder rankings.

 

[SirHandsome6]

Thats just how it goes. People aren't adjusting to Wobb because a number of them are putting their fingers in their ears and pretending nothing has changed. It doesn't mean anything for tier placement, but that doesn't prevent it from being true.

Amen. To manyof us, Wobbuffet's inclusion makes the game worse, not better or more interesting. There are many of us who loved the Wobuffet-less game and try to play THAT game whenever we can.

Wobbuffet is a very special pokemon, and should get special consideration. Simply going off usage statistics lists is not a good measure of how he affects the game. You can use your fancy lists to show how he doesn't "overcentralize" the OU metagame. Fine, but be careful with giving usage statistics so much weight. They are interesting, but in the case of complicated issues like Wobbuffet, don't tell a complete story. This whole obsession the forum has with "overcentralization" is overblown. "Overcentralization" is NOT why Wobbuffet should be banned.

You could probably unban Double Team, OHKO moves, etc, with no real pokemon usage shifts for quite some time. The reason these moves are banned is because they push the element of luck in the game unacceptably high for most players. Most people agreed that the game is just better without them, whether they're actually too strong in any given match or not. This is the case with Wobbuffet.

Nintendo did not make us a game that can be played competitively with it's base rulesets. Statistics are a great aid, letting us see what's going on... but ignoring rational arguments because they're not backed by statistics is not the way to go. The statistics we have are incomplete, and some of the problems Wobbuffet introduces to the game cannot be tracked. He will probably never limit the number of Pokémon that are used because as is commonly known, he has no technical counter anyway, so we will not build our teams around him. What he will do is limit the STRATEGIES we'll be able to use.

And even so, Wobbuffet's worst influences have not yet been seen because so many just don't want to play with him. PLEASE don't make us suffer this blue blob until he does - people are slow to catch on to the best strategies. But months from now, he will have done his damage. And rebanning him then will not give us our months of suffering back!!!

 

[Chou Toshio]

More than the likes and dislikes, I'd like to turn attention to Purple Jesus' comment on playing to Wob's strengths-- it's not easy.

Wob is a special pokemon with special mechanics, and plays differently from anything else. I think it will take time for players to reveal its greatest potential, and those strategies will not be easily emulated by other players.

In other words, the punching bag become's sort of an expert/specialist's tool. That doesn't mean its ability isn't greater than those at the top of the OU usage list, but that only a few can figure out how to abuse the bastard.

Assuming that power is usage puts too much faith in human rationality and intelligence. Our above-average-intelligent modding staff often forgets how stupid people are.

stupid . . . and lazy.

 

[scorchedsky]

Would there be any way to further stratify the monthly statistics based on ladder rankings? I'm thinking something more like a weighted usage list from the top 500 ranked players for the month or something like that. Would that offer any more insight than the regular weighted usage list? If the average joe can't figure out Wobbuffet, and doesn't want to, and doesn't use it, but the top 100 players are all abusing the shit out of how broken he is, then maybe it would be better to just ignore the average joe and find out what the best players are doing.

 

[Gmax]

Doesn't weighted usage already find out what the people winning more often are using? Though what you say doe have its merits, seeing as how those people would be the ones winning most often.

 

[Jumpman16]

Because people hate Wobbuffet. I know that the competitive community might find that a difficult concept, usage based on likes, but it is true. A number of people hate Wobbuffet and refuse to use it.

I'm going to have to ask you what you're basing this on, otherwise it's an unsupported opinion that has no business in this thread. People "hate" Blissey too and that hasn't stopped her from being in the top three on the ladder in both weighted and unweighted usage since its creation.

More than the likes and dislikes, I'd like to turn attention to Purple Jesus' comment on playing to Wob's strengths-- it's not easy.

Wob is a special pokemon with special mechanics, and plays differently from anything else. I think it will take time for players to reveal its greatest potential, and those strategies will not be easily emulated by other players.

In other words, the punching bag become's sort of an expert/specialist's tool. That doesn't mean its ability isn't greater than those at the top of the OU usage list, but that only a few can figure out how to abuse the bastard.

Assuming that power is usage puts too much faith in human rationality and intelligence. Our above-average-intelligent modding staff often forgets how stupid people are.

stupid . . . and lazy.

If so few people are capable of actually dominating with Wobbuffet, then what is the problem, really? Say Purple Jesus and ipl—or just ipl, by Purple Jesus's modest admission—are the only ones who know how to "reveal its greatest potential", wouldn't that say more about the players than a specific pokemon?

And, if you think about it, there's usually not a clear-cut way of determining power outside of usage, unless you're talking about pokemon like Arceus and Rayquaza whose stats, movepools, typing and Abilities make it pretty obvious on paper. And it's one of the most annoying things for people to be too lazy to try and dominate with Wobbuffet but still have the energy to complain about it on the forums.

 

[imperfectluck]

Well, Wobbuffet is still viable as a wall breaker (once Encore gets fixed) by draining healing pp from walls such as Hippowdon/Blissey (switch into Slack Off/Softboiled).

From personal experience, I used to be adamantly against ever using Wobb and Deoxys-E until I realized that that was pointless because there was no way I could change anyone's mind that way, so I set out to prove things. Many well known battlers that I've spoken to such as goofball, Mystica, husk, VIL etc. however (as far as I know) still "dislike" using Wobbuffet.

 

[xcfrisco]

And, if you think about it, there's usually not a clear-cut way of determining power outside of usage, unless you're talking about pokemon like Arceus and Rayquaza whose stats, movepools, typing and Abilities make it pretty obvious on paper. And it's one of the most annoying things for people to be too lazy to try and dominate with Wobbuffet but still have the energy to complain about it on the forums.

I kind of agree with this. Most other competitive communities base their tiers on a characters perceived ability to win. Thus, tiering only matters when people play to win, and most tiers are often highly influenced by tournament performance and such (ie. usage)

I think it wouldn't be too hard to determine power with all the info on pokemon we have. I mean, this metagame (playing competitive pokemon) is about 12 years old. We know the mechanics, we know what a good pokemon is (see Garchomp), a bad pokemon (see Flareon), and an average pokemon (uhhh, Vileplume?). Obviously a tier based on power *might* or might not be heavily concerned with usage, since these things will usually just work themselves out (The best people will always use the best pokemon)

Let me present this example. In Street Fighter 2, Cammy is bottom tier. People have been playing street fighter 2 for a long time. If, for whatever reason, everyone and there mom started playing with Cammy, this would not make her top tier. There is a lot of evidence, game mechanics, tournament results, etc. that show that people who pick Cammy to try to win will have a lot of work cut out for themselves.

I think a similar approach can be taken with pokemon. The only issue would be ranking the power of 497 charcters (rofl). But, in all honesty and in a truly competitive environment, only the top 10% or 15% of those characters would have to be ranked.

 

[Bliksem]

I kind of agree with this. Most other competitive communities base their tiers on a characters perceived ability to win. Thus, tiering only matters when people play to win, and most tiers are often highly influenced by tournament performance and such (ie. usage)

I think it wouldn't be too hard to determine power with all the info on pokemon we have. I mean, this metagame (playing competitive pokemon) is about 12 years old. We know the mechanics, we know what a good pokemon is (see Garchomp), a bad pokemon (see Flareon), and an average pokemon (uhhh, Vileplume?). Obviously a tier based on power *might* or might not be heavily concerned with usage, since these things will usually just work themselves out (The best people will always use the best pokemon)

Let me present this example. In Street Fighter 2, Cammy is bottom tier. People have been playing street fighter 2 for a long time. If, for whatever reason, everyone and there mom started playing with Cammy, this would not make her top tier. There is a lot of evidence, game mechanics, tournament results, etc. that show that people who pick Cammy to try to win will have a lot of work cut out for themselves.

I think a similar approach can be taken with pokemon. The only issue would be ranking the power of 497 charcters (rofl). But, in all honesty and in a truly competitive environment, only the top 10% or 15% of those characters would have to be ranked.

There's a problem with this method, though. In Street Fighter, you take one character and fight a person who is using one character. The person's skill with that character and the capabilities of that character dictate the winner. In Pokemon, it's different, because battles aren't dictated by 1v1s. They're 6v6s, so it's very difficult to rank Pokemon when you have to consider how that Pokemon is supported. For example, do you rank Garchomp as is? Or do you take into consideration Tyranitar's Sandstream? Or do you base it off Garchomp's Sandstorm (the only way to activate the ability without outside influence)?

EDIT: Since I've never really used Wobbuffet, I'm not familiar with its 'special wall breaking' abilities. How does it work with other special walls?

 

[xcfrisco]

There's a problem with this method, though. In Street Fighter, you take one character and fight a person who is using one character. The person's skill with that character and the capabilities of that character dictate the winner. In Pokemon, it's different, because battles aren't dictated by 1v1s. They're 6v6s, so it's very difficult to rank Pokemon when you have to consider how that Pokemon is supported. For example, do you rank Garchomp as is? Or do you take into consideration Tyranitar's Sandstream? Or do you base it off Garchomp's Sandstorm (the only way to activate the ability without outside influence)?

EDIT: Since I've never really used Wobbuffet, I'm not familiar with its 'special wall breaking' abilities. How does it work with other special walls?

I just wanted to show how a tiering system based on power isn't arbitrary and that power will most likely be reflected in usage and vice-versa.

In Marvel vs Capcom 2, the battles are 3v3 where you can use one of your supporting characters "assists." Thus, the top tier in that game is influenced by a characters individual mechanics as well as how well it uses those "assists" of its supporting cast. A similar approach can be used in pokemon. Garchomp is an amazing pokemon on its own and is made better by its possible "assists," which can be stealth rock, sandstorm, etc.

And remember, a tiering system doesn't represent what the best people ALWAYS use. It just serves as a general outline of what the best characters are in order to win.