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Official NBA 2011-12 Season Thread
- Thread starter -RatCheesy
- Start date
Dwight and Nash to the Lakers in the same summer, so helllaaaaaa weak.
Randombobman I think you stated your argument poorly although I am not saying it proves your core point is wrong. Maybe Bryant is only hated because he has been "so good", I hate him because I think he is immensely overrated and wish everyone would shut up about him. I could not get be more tired already of "Bryant better than Shaq" stories. He never beat my team - the Mavericks annihilated them on their way to the title, and I think it was the only time we squared off in the playoffs.
Hey guys can you shut up about scoring titles, what is wrong with you even. This is off the top of my head so sooo sorry if I slip up on one of them or something, but Kareem, Hakeem, Malone, Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all shooting a general range of 50-55% while on their way to multiple titles each. That is 9 players who are indisputably better than him. Bryant's defense and titles keeps him favorably compared to this group and near the cusp, but his offense in no fucking way does. Bryant is just simply not a top all time player, and while it may be unfair that being bigger is just an easier existence, well too fucking bad.
That list is while ignoring players from the 1960s/1970s. I am willing to say things like Julius Erving is a better player than Kobe Bryant any time, my hate may make it easier to make that decision firmly but what the fuck ever. My hate is because of him being relentlessly overhyped, not him being "too good for me to handle" or beating my team, which never happened in the playoffs.
Been a while since I got to make a good fuck Bryant rant, that was fun.
Randombobman I think you stated your argument poorly although I am not saying it proves your core point is wrong. Maybe Bryant is only hated because he has been "so good", I hate him because I think he is immensely overrated and wish everyone would shut up about him. I could not get be more tired already of "Bryant better than Shaq" stories. He never beat my team - the Mavericks annihilated them on their way to the title, and I think it was the only time we squared off in the playoffs.
Hey guys can you shut up about scoring titles, what is wrong with you even. This is off the top of my head so sooo sorry if I slip up on one of them or something, but Kareem, Hakeem, Malone, Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all shooting a general range of 50-55% while on their way to multiple titles each. That is 9 players who are indisputably better than him. Bryant's defense and titles keeps him favorably compared to this group and near the cusp, but his offense in no fucking way does. Bryant is just simply not a top all time player, and while it may be unfair that being bigger is just an easier existence, well too fucking bad.
That list is while ignoring players from the 1960s/1970s. I am willing to say things like Julius Erving is a better player than Kobe Bryant any time, my hate may make it easier to make that decision firmly but what the fuck ever. My hate is because of him being relentlessly overhyped, not him being "too good for me to handle" or beating my team, which never happened in the playoffs.
Been a while since I got to make a good fuck Bryant rant, that was fun.
^ that was beautiful. maybe the only topic CK and I agree on!
Speaking of which, here's a list of players from all-time that are better than Kobe, and I won't even include LeBron yet because people will bitch and be like "NOT ENOUGH TITLES!!!1111"
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Bill Russell
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Julius Erving
11. David Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Charles Barkley
And THEN you can start considering Kobe Bryant.
Speaking of which, here's a list of players from all-time that are better than Kobe, and I won't even include LeBron yet because people will bitch and be like "NOT ENOUGH TITLES!!!1111"
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Bill Russell
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Julius Erving
11. David Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Charles Barkley
And THEN you can start considering Kobe Bryant.
I would go MJ/Kareem/Magic/Duncan/Shaq personally but everyone has different criteria obviously, but these players all around games and the way they raised their team was amazing. Bird played with a lot of talent and was inconsistent on defense, he was still "the man" on that team but it just lowers him to #6-7 range for me.
Barkley that high is an interesting choice. I do not care about winning as much as other people so I can respect it, the guy was incredibly effective, I can see that a lot of people would froth at the mouth over him over Bryant specifically though. Isiah Thomas is definitely not better than Bryant though. No matter how little you value longevity, his prime was so much shorter than Bryant's that it is wrong to compare the two.
Barkley that high is an interesting choice. I do not care about winning as much as other people so I can respect it, the guy was incredibly effective, I can see that a lot of people would froth at the mouth over him over Bryant specifically though. Isiah Thomas is definitely not better than Bryant though. No matter how little you value longevity, his prime was so much shorter than Bryant's that it is wrong to compare the two.
That's valid. When he WAS in his prime though, no matter how short it was, he was just ridiculous. 21 ppg and 14 assists per game is sickening. That's Stockton-like assist numbers but with considerably boosted scoring. I might be slightly biased/misguided because my dad liked Detroit teams a lot growing up so I've been drilled on his brilliance for a lot of my life.
I mean Isiah's defense and point guard abilities combined puts him top x something for me, but the guy was a little worse at shooting (if you take away threes Kobe is above 48%, Isiah is below 47%) over a lot less shots and comparable defensive reputations, so to me you have to actually take it to longevity of prime + longevity in general + longevity in title winning here and Bryant wins on all of those counts. A good way to judge a player's longevity in terms of "is this guy reaching legendary levels" is distance between being prominently involved in title winning affairs, which is why Kareem is an auto #2 for me over anyone else, just absurd what he did. It puts Bryant automatically over Isiah for me too since I find the rest of their identities comparable enough.
Winning an NBA Championship is the ultimate achievement. Discounting the amount of rings a player shows incredibly bad understanding of the game of basketball.
Here's my top 20:
1 Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem
4 Magic
5 Bird
6 Wilt
7 Duncan
8 Bryant
9 Jerry West
10 Oscar Robertson
11 Hakeem
12 Shaq
13 Moses Malone
14 John Havlicek
15 Elgin Baylor
16 Lebron
17 Dr J
18 Bob Pettit
19 Mailman
20 Barkley
Here's my top 20:
1 Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem
4 Magic
5 Bird
6 Wilt
7 Duncan
8 Bryant
9 Jerry West
10 Oscar Robertson
11 Hakeem
12 Shaq
13 Moses Malone
14 John Havlicek
15 Elgin Baylor
16 Lebron
17 Dr J
18 Bob Pettit
19 Mailman
20 Barkley
FG% is such a horrible way of looking at it... Yes, Kobe historically has a bad FG% for a guy of his hype but the guy in his prime is easily a top 5 scorer of all time... The guy took a team where Smush Parker was his second best player to a 45 win season in a tough Western Conference... The guy scored 62 on the Mavs thru three quarters and averaged 36 points a game in a season... You can say what you want about percentages but even superstars dont do that... All while in his prime being one of the best defenders in the league... You're Laker hate is crazy
The Magic really can't do anything right this offseason. They hire a 30 year old GM, a 37 year old coach with no experience, and fail to even land any of the top 4 players in a 12 player deal. Everyone benefited except them. The Sixers finally have a player who can draw a double team and the Iggy should fit in perfectly in the Nuggets fast paced offense and will be able to defend the same guys Afflalo did.
The playoffs in the East are gonna be crazy next year, 2-8 is completely up for grabs. Basically every playoff team had a major roster change except Miami, Indiana, and Chicago.
Predicted Standings.
1. Miami Heat-no question
2. New York Knicks-They could be a contender with the talent they have but they're just as likely to crash and burn again. It's probably the last year for them to prove that the Melo/STAT combination can work.
3. Brooklyn Nets-They're overhyped but still a 3-5 seed depending on how much Boston tries during the regular season.
4. Indiana Pacers-I see the Pacers as the Grizzlies of the East. Both are good teams and are among the top in their respective conferences but I can't see either of them improving much more and being able to knock out LA/OKC/Miami.
5. Boston Celtics-I think they'll still be a contender this year and their standing will depend on how much Doc Rivers decides to rest KG and Pierce. They replaced Allen with two younger and better shooting guards, Bradley is coming off a huge year, and Jeff Green is returning from injury. No one is really old on this team anymore with the exception of Garnett and Pierce.
6. Philidelphia 76ers-The Sixers are definitely better this year. Bynum actually has shooters around him now to take double teams away. They could pull an upset in the playoffs.
7. Chicago Bulls-I would have them somewhere between 2 and 5 but I don't trust Rose to stay healthy
8. Hawks/Pistons/Cavaliers/Bucks-I have no idea for this. Hawks lost two starters but still have Smith and Horford. The Pistons and Cavaliers are both improving a bunch. The Bucks have the names but I don't think Ellis/Jennings is gonna work out.
The Kobe homers here are crazy. He's probably borderline top 10 right now. He's still good but he's definitely declined a lot the past 2 seasons.
The playoffs in the East are gonna be crazy next year, 2-8 is completely up for grabs. Basically every playoff team had a major roster change except Miami, Indiana, and Chicago.
Predicted Standings.
1. Miami Heat-no question
2. New York Knicks-They could be a contender with the talent they have but they're just as likely to crash and burn again. It's probably the last year for them to prove that the Melo/STAT combination can work.
3. Brooklyn Nets-They're overhyped but still a 3-5 seed depending on how much Boston tries during the regular season.
4. Indiana Pacers-I see the Pacers as the Grizzlies of the East. Both are good teams and are among the top in their respective conferences but I can't see either of them improving much more and being able to knock out LA/OKC/Miami.
5. Boston Celtics-I think they'll still be a contender this year and their standing will depend on how much Doc Rivers decides to rest KG and Pierce. They replaced Allen with two younger and better shooting guards, Bradley is coming off a huge year, and Jeff Green is returning from injury. No one is really old on this team anymore with the exception of Garnett and Pierce.
6. Philidelphia 76ers-The Sixers are definitely better this year. Bynum actually has shooters around him now to take double teams away. They could pull an upset in the playoffs.
7. Chicago Bulls-I would have them somewhere between 2 and 5 but I don't trust Rose to stay healthy
8. Hawks/Pistons/Cavaliers/Bucks-I have no idea for this. Hawks lost two starters but still have Smith and Horford. The Pistons and Cavaliers are both improving a bunch. The Bucks have the names but I don't think Ellis/Jennings is gonna work out.
The Kobe homers here are crazy. He's probably borderline top 10 right now. He's still good but he's definitely declined a lot the past 2 seasons.
Randombobman, you made a claim insinuating only rings matter, but then you listed out of order based on rings! Shameful. Dirk Nowitzki was no better or worse after winning that ring, he has been an amazing playoff player his entire career. Marion and Chandler were the difference, he had put on this type of performance before.
Why is FG% not a good way to look at it? Other players suffered through shitty teammates (Moses Malone) without their points output or efficiency suffering. It is not like I am ranking them by FG% or MJ would not be on top and Kareem would be below Shaq. If your career FG% is 5% below the range of the other all time
I do not hate the Lakers. I hate all shot chuckers who people rave about, it is who I fucking am. I have not liked Tracy McGrady, Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, or Kobe Bryant. The one exception who has not killed his team over and over is Bryant and the difference is only defense. Those other guys all scored a huge ass amount of ppg and "mattered" on offense to casual fans, and none of them have done a god damn thing except ruin their teams year after year when they were "stars". I look at objectivity, I do not give a god damn shit about petty fanboyism. I love the Mavericks and would never apologize about that, but I love Steve Nash and Tim Duncan as players and human beings.
Why is FG% not a good way to look at it? Other players suffered through shitty teammates (Moses Malone) without their points output or efficiency suffering. It is not like I am ranking them by FG% or MJ would not be on top and Kareem would be below Shaq. If your career FG% is 5% below the range of the other all time
I do not hate the Lakers. I hate all shot chuckers who people rave about, it is who I fucking am. I have not liked Tracy McGrady, Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, or Kobe Bryant. The one exception who has not killed his team over and over is Bryant and the difference is only defense. Those other guys all scored a huge ass amount of ppg and "mattered" on offense to casual fans, and none of them have done a god damn thing except ruin their teams year after year when they were "stars". I look at objectivity, I do not give a god damn shit about petty fanboyism. I love the Mavericks and would never apologize about that, but I love Steve Nash and Tim Duncan as players and human beings.
I honestly think the Celtics are no longer a contender. I don't really have the immediate evidence to explain why but it's a gut thing. I just don't see it anymore.
I do not know how many times the history of the NBA has to show us defense>offense on average. The Celtics taught the kids how to play defense, and Rondo's game is the most underrated in the league at the moment because he does not take over in the regular season. The thing is that they have to work so much harder at it to get to the finals than a team with a "we can run through him every night superstar" like the Heat or the Thunder or or the Mavericks did year before last. I think it demotes you to a lesser contender, but the Celtics are still way better off than the Pacers or Clippers or Nets or Grizzlies could possibly be, except for the Pacers none of the others are even close.
I just don't want people trying to use last season as any sort of evidence of how Kobe will perform going forward. It was a compacted season with no training camp, several new pieces and a mismatched roster. I was amazed how Kobe carried the team for long stretches of early in the season. He wasn't able to utilize his skills completely/correctly and ended up in a lot of bad iso's with the shotclock running out. You can thank Mike Brown's, ah, ineptitude at running offense for that.
I think they'll still make the playoffs. I just don't think they have what it takes to get to the Finals. Being a great defensive team doesn't grant you anything special. You still have to be able to be offensively competent to a certain degree, and their offense has lacked it for years.. getting progressively worse and worse.
How did the Lakers manage to land Dwight and keep Gasol again? That is beyond me...I mean did they actually give up anything besides Bynum and 2 random players looking at this? They paid more draft picks for Nash I think...not that the draft picks are worth anything considering how low the Lakers usually pick, but still...
You are the same person who picked the Grizzlies to win it all, so I have no idea why you are trying to define contender to begin with when you clearly cannot recognize one. The Celtics just nearly went to the finals (and both teams were equally banged up) with nothing but great defense and you think they are dead because they only have defense? Yo they had the 26th most points per game, they had the 2nd most allowed (and by basketball reference 27th / 1st "rating"). Being a great defense does grant you something special, recognize it already. You do realize that the Celtics have either gone to the finals or only lost to the team who went to the finals in the last 5 years, right???
The Celtics have had a better defense than all of their opponents every one of those years. They have retooled with youth and taught those young guys how to sustain the team defense. Defense goes beyond ppg numbers too obviously, Kevin Garnett brings something more special than anyone else to this team defense (and a lot of nights the offense too lol). When age does finally completely fell him it will be a big blow, but he keeps bringing it in the playoffs every year.
Also the worst loss (4-1 to the Heat last year) came in the fallout of the Perkins trade, a disaster of a trade that unraveled a team that was up to that point gelling beyond belief. They would not have necessarily beaten the Heat, but it would not have been such a laugher.
The Celtics have had a better defense than all of their opponents every one of those years. They have retooled with youth and taught those young guys how to sustain the team defense. Defense goes beyond ppg numbers too obviously, Kevin Garnett brings something more special than anyone else to this team defense (and a lot of nights the offense too lol). When age does finally completely fell him it will be a big blow, but he keeps bringing it in the playoffs every year.
Also the worst loss (4-1 to the Heat last year) came in the fallout of the Perkins trade, a disaster of a trade that unraveled a team that was up to that point gelling beyond belief. They would not have necessarily beaten the Heat, but it would not have been such a laugher.
Irrelevant ad hominem. Everybody can point out something silly they said in the past.
That just means they've amounted to nothing more than second best in the conference; I'd argue this has more to do with competition than actually being a contender. They're a lot like the Pistons in that way. I also predict that they will take a significant drop this year more than they ever have in the past.
I don't predict they take the Heat to seven games in a rematch. I think the loss of Ray Allen will be too much.
Edit: And by the way, just because their positioning in the conference hasn't gotten worse doesn't mean they actually haven't gotten worse. I really think their competition is that bad. In the EC, it's really hard to detect how much worse an elite team can get considering the competition they've had in the past 2-3 years.
It is not irrelevant when you are attempting to define with a lazy term that one of the most consistent team of the last 5 years is suddenly irrelevant.
It means that they have amounted to more than everyone in the league but the Lakers??? Second best out of 30 teams is a hell of a fucking good place to be. Unlike the Pistons (and more like currently the Spurs) this team has retooled without losing their identity.
Ray Allen is a loss but he has lost enough efficiency that it was time for Avery Bradley to permanently start in his place anyway.
Unless you are defining the entire contender list as the Heat and Lakers, you basically seem to be trying to make some sort of "bold prediction" but this is just a really bad one. Amazing defense is enough to keep being a contender and the Celtics showed that their defense has not lost a step at all and that it is not going to lose any.
It means that they have amounted to more than everyone in the league but the Lakers??? Second best out of 30 teams is a hell of a fucking good place to be. Unlike the Pistons (and more like currently the Spurs) this team has retooled without losing their identity.
Ray Allen is a loss but he has lost enough efficiency that it was time for Avery Bradley to permanently start in his place anyway.
Unless you are defining the entire contender list as the Heat and Lakers, you basically seem to be trying to make some sort of "bold prediction" but this is just a really bad one. Amazing defense is enough to keep being a contender and the Celtics showed that their defense has not lost a step at all and that it is not going to lose any.
I didn't say they were irrelevant. I simply think they don't have that much of a shot getting past the Heat.
Allow me to correct myself. Second best in the conference.
Depends on the defensive statistics you're in fact giving. You're giving defensive statistics that are relative to the other teams in that year. You're not giving the steadily declining individual statistics year-by-year. They have declined (even defensively .. individually as a team) as I said. It's just hard to notice in their conference.
Let's see, I had a pretty good chart sometime last season that spoke on specific areas that they were declining in like rebounding (likely due to size). I'll see if I can find it again.
Edit: Btw, I don't think Allen was necessarily on a serious decline.
Double edit: Another thing I think is being overlooked is their offensive efficiency. While defense is more important than offense, their shots at the rim is one of the least in the league and they are taking more and more jumpshots.
Even if you are a good defensive team, if you depend on jumpshots while being an average jumpshooting team (while also losing one of your best jumpshooters), you'd need a lot of things to go your way against a team like Miami Heat and dare I say it.. the Sixers.
If you were being objective about something ad hominem attacks would be unnecessary in your critiques. Just saying.
Kobe's had haters all his life and he's been criticized for the same shit over and over again. But he has five rings to show for it. And those rings matter. Ask Barkley or Iverson. Any NBA player would rather have a ring than anything else. Kobe has a high basketball I.Q. and strong will power, and those qualities factor into why he's been such a great player throughout his career. He gives gives his all to the game, trains more intensely than any other NBA player, and has never quit in a game, win or lose. Unlike other people. Heart matters and Kobe's got that in spades. And for someone that hates shot chuckers, I find it pretty strange you like Dirk Nowitzki.
Anyway, at the end of the day I'm not going to change my mind and neither are you guys.
I tried looking for some defensive stats but can't seem to find them. I'll concede that they're consistently top five defensive team.
But they will still only go as far as Garnett will take them. Hinging your championship chances on a 36-37 year old dude who's being backed up by nobodies with Andrew Bynum lurking just doesn't smell good to me.
But they will still only go as far as Garnett will take them. Hinging your championship chances on a 36-37 year old dude who's being backed up by nobodies with Andrew Bynum lurking just doesn't smell good to me.
I will give Lebron this: He's a better PG than Kobe lolo.
Seriously prime (read: this) Lebron > prime Kobe :O.
Also, Dwight hasn't even said that he would extend his contract. Wouldn't it be funny if the Lakers didn't work out so they essentially gave up Bynum for Howard and then Howard leaves them with GASOL.
Seriously prime (read: this) Lebron > prime Kobe :O.
Also, Dwight hasn't even said that he would extend his contract. Wouldn't it be funny if the Lakers didn't work out so they essentially gave up Bynum for Howard and then Howard leaves them with GASOL.
Players with a high basketball I.Q. refrain from the horrible shots Kobe often takes.
