Metagame NP: ZU Stage 7 - Rotom-F banned @27

[risin_glory]

I have had mixed views on fridge. Like the only answers to it (viable) are seaking shedinja(only stall) and piloswine. Not to mention, sub plot is nearly unstoppable in end game cleaning. Then agian, a single blizzard miss (very much possible) can totally stop it in its tracks.
That being said, how do it's ans actually fair against it?
1) Np blizzard has a chance to beat pilo and that is not accounting for np+pain split. Means pilo needs to run rslide/edge. But wait, the you need to remove crash or shard which makes it overall worse. So remove sr then? In that case you need another rocker which are (bad rocker),(overlap weakness),(its meh+overlap weakness),(overlap weakness),(overlap weakness),(overlap weakness).

2) While it fairs well, frostom is literally the only niche for this otherwise unviable mon. Also, gl against frostom-jelli cores.

3) WoW!

Besides, the ZUPL so far has shown how much of a beast it can be. So, keeping all this in mind and completely agreeing to Jett's post, I am now sure that I am in favour of ban.

 

[5gen]

ZU council voted on Rotom-Frost and it is currently 5-0 in favor of a council ban (Apagogie still needs to vote, will be edited in). Here is the voting sheet. Keep in mind that most of council stated that they would like to suspect Rotom-Frost after the Octrober tier shifts.

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you.

 

[viet noa]

IS GONE

biggest winners:
- part of what made rotom-fan fall in the eyes of many was that the competition against the other rotom forms was too intense. with rotom-frost gone now, there’s more reason to use fantom as an offensive pivot. while air slash is much less strong, it does have some decent coverage against fighting and grass types, while also having flinch rng. on the defensive side, i’ve been an advocate for bulky fantom, and i still think it’s super underrated.
- one of the pokémon that was countered the hardest by rotom-frost was cramorant. not only does it get outsped and easily OHKO’d, but rotom-frost also occupied its role as a defogger that can provide some solid offensive support. while cramorant won’t jump back to a- or a tier any time soon, rotom-frost’s ban does give it some much-needed breathing room.
- jynx has stood out as one of the biggest anomalies in zu, as its potential is insane despite its high reliance of team support. a major factor that prevented jynx from advancing as a zu juggernaut was rotom-frost’s presence. rotom-frost also had immediate power, but it had far more utility, access to volt switch, as well as boltbeam coverage. this, alongside its nasty plot set which is much less frail, made it far more accessible. despite this, jynx’s potential of being a nightmare to switch into was always there. i think with rotom-frost being banned, more teams will be open to building around jynx’s upside.
biggest losers:
- one of piloswine’s biggest draws was that it was the best viable check to rotom-frost in zu. with it being banned, piloswine loses one of its primary niches over rhydon. still, there’s no doubt that piloswine will remain as a great stealth rock tank.
- coalossal was already falling off, due to its poor defensive typing getting to the best of it & competition increasing with alolan sandslash. however, with its tremendous bulk, it served as a solid check to rotom-frost. it’s going to be even harder justifying coalossal’s placement in the b tiers.
me - i got hard carried by rotom-frost during many matches, so rip lol

 

[Pabloaram]

For Pilowsine i dont think is hitted as hard as Coalossal form this ban. The presence of Frostom make him run Rock coverage instead of his great stab moves.
Rn he comeback to run more standar sr set using Icycle Crash, Ice Shard and EQ as his common 3 moves outside of Stealth Rock (ofc)

 

[viet noa]

For Pilowsine i dont think is hitted as hard as Coalossal form this ban. The presence of Frostom make him run Rock coverage instead of his great stab moves.
Rn he comeback to run more standar sr set using Icycle Crash, Ice Shard and EQ as his common 3 moves outside of Stealth Rock (ofc)

on the other hand though, a big reason why people started using piloswine more frequently was because it’s much better at handing frosttom than rhydon & stunfisk. with that niche removed, there’s even more reason to use rhydon and stunfisk

 

[risin_glory]

biggest losers:


me - i got hard carried by rotom-frost during many matches, so rip lol

Imagine not mentioning and

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Shifts dropped, and we lost a few bulky mons, but they were important ones: Jellicent, Ferroseed, and Audino.

Audino was a solid glue for a lot of bulky teams in general, but had a place on stall. The combination of Wish + Protect, with quite meaty Wishes, good bulk, as well as Regenerator, made Audino a bit of a pain to fight for some, but a reliable generic bulky mon for others. Audino's most direct replacement is Lickilicky, which has much worse abilities, but better raw bulk, and still has utility moves like Knock Off and Heal Bell. Due to its lack of Regenerator, Licki will be much easier to fight than Audino, but I imagine it'll at least get a VR ranking this time around. There's also Wigglytuff but other than having some okayish resistances and immunities, and Rocks if you're desperate, the terrible bulk in comparison to either Audino or Lickilicky ruin any chance of viability for it.

Ferroseed's loss is one of another glue mon. Bulky Grass-type, Bulky Steel-type, Spikes setter all in one package. It was on the decline in viability, but still was quite common to see because its traits are still quite valuable. As for what benefits, well stuff it walled are a bit better now I guess, but many of them are still handled by Tangela quite well (mainly the Grass-types like Flapple or Trevenant). You can try and make Roselia work now I guess but its lack of coverage still hurts it greatly, in addition to lacking physical bulk.

Jellicent was actually on the rise, and it leaving probably will be the biggest upset to many. Good bulk, reliable recovery, good utility, you name it. There's nothing quite like it. There are other good bulky Waters like Wishiwashi, but they have different niches compared to Jelli. Many of what it handled, is similarly handled by things like Tangela, so don't expect a Basculin renaissance or anything. Regardless, a huge loss.

 

[viet noa]

An Ode to Jellicent

With Jellicent moving up to PU, the metagame of ZU has suffered a massive loss. However, I think it would be nice to look back at the benefits that Jellicent provided the tier while it was still here.

With a solidly unique defensive typing, balanced base stats, and a solid water immunity, Jellicent had all the capabilities of a solid defensive glue mon. What made it stand out was its diverse movepool - it could shut down opposing defenses with Taunt just as well as it could cripple physical wallbreakers with Will-O-Wisp. Although Night Shade, Wisp, Recover, and Taunt were its primary moves, it had no shortage of extra options.

Part of Jellicent's positive impact on the meta was how diverse its movepool was. Despite its inconsistencies, Strength Sap could completely mess with offensive cores while potentially recovering insane amounts of health. Scald's STAB alongside its burn chance made it just as common as Night Shade, if not more. Players could decide between Toxic or Wisp, depending on how Jellicent fit its team. Finally, even Hex could be ran to extrapolate the effects of status. Not only did Jellicent have flexibility in its attacks, but it had flexibility in its EV's as well. Speed was commonly ran to outpace offensive Rhydon, but one could've also fully invested into defenses. Not to mention, some Jellicent users ran mixed sets with a splash of spdef.

Jellicent's defenses were able to adapt to a variety of situations. It was one of the best checks to Sawk, being immune to its STAB and threatening to burn it. Due to its status as a defensive sponge, it could absorb hits from a variety of opponents. Offensive Rapidash, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Jynx, Qwilfish, and others were often left with few answers against Jellicent. Thanks to its array of utility providing plenty of team support, and thanks to its great defensive traits, Jellicent was a fantastic part of the ZU metagame. It facilitated success with its versatility, fitting on a wide array of teams that benefitted from its presence greatly.

:)

 

[btboy]

Now that ZUPL has concluded, I wanted to highlight two phenomena in a still-fluid ZU metagame: one that is older but growing in viability, and one that I think is more emergent. I can’t take credit for either of these, but I do think they’re worth talking about.

The first is that players have gotten pretty good at exploiting Tangela’s niche as a blanket physical wall. Earlier in the year, a common strategy to break Tangela was to remove its Eviolite and then attrition it with physically-oriented offensive cores. Now, players are taking the path of least resistance and bypassing Tangela’s physical bulk altogether by exploiting it on the special side. It is now very common to use physical pivots like Thwackey and Silvally-Dark to lure Tangela for threatening, specially-oriented teammates.

I reviewed all 64 ZUPL SS replays and these cores appeared in 20 matches, winning 60% of the time. Correlation is not causation and you should generally be wary of win rate stats, but it does indicate that these offensive structures are 1) common at a competitive level, and 2) viable.

Again, this is not new. This summer, czim and kay both shared teams in the teambuilding lab that were structured around this concept (Czim’s Cinccino-Thievul team, kay’s Thwackey-Snowslash team). Czim also achieved Silvally-Ground suspect reqs using a Thwackey-Skuntank core which popped up several times throughout the course of ZUPL. And speaking of Groundvally, it's worth noting that the EdgeQuake pivot also abused Tangela in a similar manner before it was banned.

This strategy should continue to grow in popularity considering the shifts that occurred at the beginning of October. Jellicent’s rise to PU has left the tier wanting for water immunities, as Jynx, Poliwrath, and Cradily are all awkward to fit to varying degrees. The Basculin renaissance is already underway, and the Choice Band set can pivot on Tangela in the same manner that Thwackey did throughout ZUPL. Should Tangela continue to be targeted by these cores, there will be a serious need for defensive innovation within the metagame because Tangela has been a defensive glue for a long time now.

The second phenomenon I wanted to discuss was an offensive core built by kay and used by watashi in their ZUPL Finals win against Landon. The core of WispHex Rotom and Skuntank stood out to me as an innovation to exploit the ubiquity of Ground-types in team structures.

Because Rotom's Volt Switch is good at generating pressure, Pokemon like Rhydon and Stunfisk are relied upon to deny its attempts at gaining momentum. However, these Ground-types are also counted upon to answer Skuntank, which can be very threatening once they've been removed. Will-O-Wisp is particularly crippling for a tank like Rhydon, but it also negates Leftovers recovery for Stunfisk, on top of boosting the power of Hex. This allows Rotom to wear down Skuntank's checks over the course of the game and pave the way for the skunk to do serious damage.

Of course, Skuntank is not the only Pokemon who can benefit from this kind of support. For example, both Silvally-Poison variants like having Stunfisk removed, and Swords Dance sets appreciate a weakened Rhydon. (Czim employed a similar concept in the first week of ZUPL, bringing SubNP Rotom and Work Up Poisonvally against Tuthur.) This particular Rotom set seems to have the most potential though, because it's less of a momentum sink than Choiced variants, and can pressure these defensive answers immediately while denying entry hazards with Defog. It can also better pressure midgrounds like Eldegoss, unlike the scarf variant.

This development is particularly interesting in light of the whispers of a Rotom suspect. An increase in the popularity of this set will make it even harder to prep for in the builder, especially considering the way it enables other threats. Of course, this particular Rotom set has existed since before DLC shifts, but an increase in its popularity has the potential to make it even more restricting.

The continued exploitation of Tangela and the potential diversification of Rotom sets are two trends I'm interested to watch moving forward. These are two Pokemon that have been preeminent threats in ZU for a long time now, so these developments obviously have very big implications for the tier. We are still adjusting to the October shifts, but I think ZUPL has already begun shifting the metagame in a certain direction.

 

[viet noa]

With ZUPL's conclusion alongside the ongoing ZU Majors, new life has been beathed onto the metagame despite little to no tier changes. This includes the unexpectedly meteoric rise of Pokémon previously considered average at best. For instance, Eldegoss used to be considered for UR, but has now had its potential fully realized as a mixed wall that removes hazards with ease. However, Eldegoss isn't the only big riser as of late...



Throh: The Talk of The Tier?

Throh has finally overcome the fierce Fighting-type competition in ZU, and has established itself as one of the most unique special walls in ZU. It's also become a vital defensive piece that has kept Hazard Stack teams going, which was especially needed considering the departure of Ferroseed and Jellicent. Furthermore, each of the three Pokémon to leave ZU (Audino, Ferroseed, and Jellicent) had quite good Special Defense. As a result, many have turned to Throh as a solid alternative as a specail wall. Still though, there are other special walls that exist in the tier, including Miltank, Wishiwashi, and Articuno. So, why has Throh seen a significant rise in viability and usage? In other words, what really makes Throh stand out?

Unique combinations of typing, stats, movepool, and ability make Throh one of the most unusually effective Pokémon right now. Throh takes direct advantage of the tier's low amount of Fairy-type Pokémon, allowing it to use its Fighting-type as an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Despite its weaknesses to Flying and Psychic, Throh boasts some of the most convenient resistances in the game. With resistances to Stealth Rock, U-Turn, and Knock Off, Throh can successfully sponge some of the most common physical attacks in the game without much investment. This is in part due to its great base stats relative to ZU, which facilitates Throh to invest in Special Defense while still having respectable utility on the physical side.

Throh's moveset is key to its viability, too. As a bulky Pokémon, Throh is able to constantly spam Knock Off, crippling many of its counters in the long run. Circle Throw not only does damage, but it drags out another Pokémon onto the field. These two moves are perfect in tandem, as Throh can remove the boots that many Pokémon rely on, and proceed to shoo it away so that it gets harmed by hazards later. In combination with Spikes, this leads to copious amounts of chip damage. Rest may be its only recovery option, but it activates the ability Guts. Not only does this make Throh a very good status absorber, but it strengthens the damage from Knock Off and Circle Throw further.

Lastly, the current conditions of the metagame make Throh's niche more important than ever before. With Pokémon like Tangela and Eldegoss spreading Sleep, Altaria and Alolan Sandslash spreading Toxic, and Rotom and Cofagrigus spreading Burns, having a status absorber is a luxury. Being able to spam Knock Off is also becoming even more highly valued, as many defensive cores rely on Eviolite, Leftovers, or Boots to maintain their longevity. Due to the departure of two amazing special walls, the options for special attack absorbers are running a little thin. With that being said, Throh is far from a downgrade. With Circle Throw antics, Knock Off spam, and Guts-boosted Sleep, Throh brings an extremely unique niche that adds more spice to the ZU metagame.

 

[Tuthur]

Hello, if you're on the zu discord you probably already know there is something I find worrying in the current ZU metagame.


Rotom has always been somewhat hard to defensively handle because of the Nasty Plot set easily demolishing most stall teams to it and the Will-O-Wisp + Hex messing up with most balance cores. However, without Audino in the tier, it has become even harder to deal defensively with it, as Audino was able to deal with pretty much every set and could cancel the Volt Switch chips thanks to Regenerator. There are still some defensive Rotom checks, mainly Rhydon, Piloswine, Stunfisk, Eldegoss, Clefairy, Throh, Appletun, and Coalossal. That's a lot of Pokemon, however the last four aren't blocking Volt Switch which makes them ify checks to the Choice Specs set and struggle to deal with the Choice Scarf and WoW+Hex sets if not paired with Electric-immunities like Raichu, Manectric, and Alolan Dugtrio. The three Ground-types are however not doing well versus the WoW + Hex set as they are heavily crippled by a burn (Rhydon and Piloswine losing all their offensive presence, and Stunfisk losing its only form of recovery meaning it won't be able to really check anything later on), and depending on their sets they aren't always countering the Nasty Plot set. Eldegoss is also not doing well versus both sets unless it is an Aromatherapy (still loses to NP though), and other defensive checks, while they can handle WoW sets for the most part, are often only trading with NP Rotom. Lastly, there is Hakamo-o which is the only hard counter to Nasty Plot Rotom but is extremely niche and doesn't do that well versus other Rotom sets.

This shows how hard it can be to scout Rotom as each set and each move have different answers, and even if you pack answers to it, it is going to make progress regardless. It sort of reminds me Rotom-F with more versatility but less bulk. It is really hard to play around Rotom with a defensive team due to how much pressure it can deal when giving a free switch-in onto Pyukumuku, Hattrem, Cofagrigus, or Articuno for instance, as Nasty Plot is most of the time going to take out at least one or two of your Pokemon if it doesn't completely sweeps, whereas other sets are always going to make progress with Volt Switch + Trick/Will-O-Wisp. For those reason I support a Rotom suspect test.

 

[kay]

So while I do agree with a rotom suspect, I want to mostly reply to tuthur's post and then give my own thoughts.

Rotom has always been somewhat hard to defensively handle because of the Nasty Plot set easily demolishing most stall teams

Stall has a lot of ways out of this. Stuff like Haze Cryo and Throh are extremely good on stall, but even if they weren't I don't think Rotom having a single stall breaking set is a relevant reason it needs a suspect given the poor state stall is in. And most bulkier teams if they're lose to NP rotom they're normally just losing to Rotom in general, especially the Hex sets. I think NP rotom is actually in a fairly lack luster place right now in the meta with stall being left so weak after the shifts and what adaption they do have to survive actually does extremely well into it and Throh being such a common sight on bulky teams now.

and depending on their sets they aren't always countering the Nasty Plot set. Eldegoss is also not doing well versus both sets unless it is an Aromatherapy (still loses to NP though), and other defensive checks, while they can handle WoW sets for the most part, are often only trading with NP Rotom. Lastly, there is Hakamo-o which is the only hard counter to Nasty Plot Rotom but is extremely niche and doesn't do that well versus other Rotom sets.

Again, after outlining why NP Rotom isn't that great of a pick right now compared to its other sets, it puts this back into context of you don't really need to worry for the most part about NP Rotom as its something that largely exists on paper and doesn't work well in practice unless they're already extremely Rotom weak at which point any Rotom set is going to work.


So with me explaining why NP Rotom isn't that great, that mostly just leaves Hex sets as the main culprit set of Rotom with other sets like Specs, scarf, and NP feeling more like fluff arguments against it. If you've tried playing NP Rotom recently you're in for an uphill battle when you could just be playing Hex Rotom and either crippling everything or endlessly pivot against the entire tier, which in my opinion, is the biggest problem with Rotom more than its on-paper flexibility.


That said though, while I do support the suspect, I don't think its ban worthy. It lacks an abusive speed tier, lacks a lot in bulk to the point where Sitrus remains a very common item on it just to retain some longevity, and mostly relies on weak hits or other momentum support to fully maximize. While it is by far the most consistent mon in the tier at what it does as an enabler, I don't see it as too problematic that it needs to go. Its power comes from the lack of defensive counter play but it does very little with that outside gaining chip and momentum so while frustrating, it ultimately ends up just being fine.

And just for context this is coming from the person whose been abusing Hex Rotom since Skorch meta and has been pushing this as the best mon in the tier for quite some time. I also think Seeds and Audino leaving had very little to do with Rotom's strengths as this "endlessly pivots or breaks the grounds with Hex" has been what its been doing this since Centiskorch meta threw Rhydon in the forefront of the metagame and its more people are just now catching on to how abusive this set can be as there's more justifiable reasons to run Rotom without the added ghost immunity and electric resist. All they did was keep you from losing as fast, but you were still losing to its endless momentum grabbing game.

 

[viet noa]

ZU has been in an odd state recently. While the banning of Rotom-Frost has proven to be beneficial, the tier shifts in October have been mostly an unfortunate loss. In particular, no Pokémon were brought down to ZU, while popular defensive Pokémon like Audino have departed. The metagame has adapted to these challenges with new, thriving faces. Particularly, Throh and Eldegoss have risen to the occasion. With that being said, this has culminated to one particular Pokémon's success expanding to incredible levels.



Rotom: Overbearing or Overrated?

Rotom has stood as the most versatile Pokémon in ZU for several months now. However, before its rise to the top, it was often regarded as a "jack of all trades, master of none". What has made Rotom become as prominent as it is now, what can ZU do to check it, and is worthy of a suspect test/ban?

Many of ZU's trends, stemming all the way back to this summer, played out in Rotom's favor. For example, Articuno's drop to ZU served as a significant moment for the tier, and Rotom's Electric typing and great Speed made it naturally good at checking Articuno. While it doesn't usually OHKO the spdef variants that make Articuno shine, chipping notable amounts of health with Volt Switch has a lasting effect. Silvally-Ground's ban was another big occasion for ZU, and while utility sets let Rotom bait & burn it (foreshadowing), Silvally-Ground was able to sit on Choice sets due to its typing and Trick immunity. Rotom-Frost's ban removed direct competition, and then the loss of premier checks like Ferroseed and Audino has helped a lot.

On top of Rotom's amazing versatility making it already a top tier, those trends have facilitated the outright dominance Rotom has now. Boasting an incredible dual STAB, Specs sets can be hard to switch into for opponents, and Trick cripples many of Rotom's physically attacking checks. Speaking of its dual STAB though, Rotom's SubPlot set takes advantage of that by tearing through many defensive staples. Scarf Rotom is arguably the most common speed control in the game, right up there with Scarf Sawk and Banded Thwackey. Finally, utility Rotom not only provides hazard removal, but Rotom also uses the Bait & Burn strategy with this set.



The Problem with Physical Ground-Types

Many teams feel nearly required to run Ground-types, because the chip damage and momentum gained from Volt Switch is too much to not address with a direct immunity. This is fine on paper, because not only do many teams in many tiers follow this philosophy, but in ZU, prominent Ground-types like Rhydon and Piloswine are A Tier Pokémon.

Because of that, Utility Rotom absolutely thrives. By baiting Ground-types in by threatening a Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, Rotom can use Wisp on these physical attackers to completely cripple their offensive usage. Not only does this help Rotom continue its impact with Hex and Volt Switch, but burning Ground-types is also major for setup Pokémon like Skuntank and Silvally-Dark.



The Stunfisk Debate

Stunfisk stands out as a polarizing Pokémon that has both appealing strengths and aggravating flaws. As one of the few special attacking Ground-types, Stunfisk is both immune to Volt Switch and relatively OK with being burned. Not to mention, it has supereffective coverage with Foul Play and a great Special Defense stat to tank +2 Shadow Balls. Sounds perfect, right?

Sadly, some people are frustrated with Stunfisk's passivity. Due to Levitate and its typing, Rotom is immune and resistant to the two STAB moves Stunfisk uses. This is on top of Stunfisk's uninvested 81 Special Attack, which isn't bad but isn't good. This forces Stunfisk to run Foul Play, which only does decent amount of damage instead of completely terrifying Rotom. In order to run Foul Play, Stunfisk has to either sacrifice one of its dual STAB moves, or Toxic. No matter what, it's not a great situation.

Stunfisk still stands as one of the best checks to Rotom, and it also checks other special attackers like Skuntank, but it can be difficult to fit Stunfisk on teams where its passivity loses the player's momentum.



Rotom's Other Checks ~ Do They Hold Up?

Many other Pokémon have other uses for keeping Rotom in check, but there's always room for improvement. Eldegoss resists Volt Switch and has great special defense, but it can also be quite passive against Pokémon that aren't weak to its attacks. Throh absorbs Wisp and KO's it with Knock Off, but its neutrality to Volt Switch makes it vulnerable to chip. This makes it oftentimes forced to use Rest, which is better for Throh than it is for most others, but it's not ideal. Appletun's typing and bulk makes it a surprisingly good Rotom check, but its lack of utility outside of Leech Seed can make it hard to fit on some teams. Furthermore, being tricked a Choice Scarf is a big loss for an Appletun.

So ... What Now?

It can't be denied that Rotom has many Pokémon that aren't afraid of certain aspects of Rotom. I could have mentioned more soft checks, but most of these checks follow a similar theme. A team can prepare for Rotom by bringing a soft check, but multiple checks need to be brought out to be completely prepated. For example, you can use Rhydon on your team, but if you don't have a status absorber like Throh, don't be surprised if you get burned trying to switch Rhydon into Rotom.

The defensive checks to Rotom are certainly good, and there's not a lack of them, but Rotom's versatility lets it work around that. Thus, it can often feel overwhelming making a defensive core that isn't exploited by Rotom in some fashion.

Overall, I would support a Rotom Suspect Test, and I would slightly lean towards a Ban, but it's not something I'm 100% certain on.

 

[viet noa]

So someone asked that if Rotom gets banned, who will be the next potentially broken Pokémon? I actually have thought of a Pokémon that has lots of potential. Is this Pokémon broken right now? Or is this an exaggeration?



How Hard Is It to Switch Into Choice Specs Jynx?

Jynx (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Trick

First off, let's bring up the obvious flaws. Jynx is really hard to bring into battle, because its horrible defense means that it can switch into almost nothing. While its 95 Base Speed is very good, it's still slower than the likes of Rapidash and Cinccino. It's also weak to Stealth Rock, although that doesn't always matter given that it already gets OHKO'd by a light breeze. Even when it enters a battle, it's still choice locked, so it needs to get a good prediction.

Nevertheless, with fantastic Special Attack, good Speed, and very solid coverage, just how difficult is it to switch into Specs Jynx once entering the field?

The Calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Wishiwashi-School: 144-169 (48.9 - 57.4%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wishiwashi-School: 138-163 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alcremie: 171-202 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 288-342 (86.2 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 213-252 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arctovish: 392-462 (122.1 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 412-486 (127.1 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 676-796 (190.9 - 224.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 278-328 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 362-426 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ice Scales Frosmoth: 135-159 (48 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Cramorant: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rapidash is one of the only Pokémon that can switch into all of Jynx's attacks, technically. It can survive one specs attack before outspeeding and KO'ing it with Flare Blitz. Unfortunately, there's a chance Rapidash KO's itself in the process. Articuno seems to be the best check to Jynx, but it's still prone to potentially being 2HKO'd when trying to switch into it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 241-285 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Flare Blitz -- 264.2 - 312.1% (16.1 - 16.1% recoil damage)

Of course though, all of this is given that Jynx gets a good prediction. The read-reliant nature of Specs Jynx is a legitimate flaw that can't be denied. Even if it oftentimes can still deal solid chunks of damage when it misses the mark, Jynx is not always in an ideal scenario. Still though, Jynx is very strong, and its impact on the metagame can be similar to that of Thievul.

Conclusion: Specs Jynx is pretty terrifying.

 

[PandaDoux]

Before reading this post, know that my english is not good and some sentences can be weird or awkward.

Hello hall ! I want to express my opinion about Jynx because the hiss' posts made me want to (please continue to post hiss that's always a pleasure to read you !)

First, i agree with you, Choice Specs Jynx is a nightmare to face for defensive teams but i don't think Specs is the best set to Jynx !

To me, this set is the best :

Daronne à Louna (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lovely Kiss
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast

First, with Boots, Jynx doesn't take rocks or/and tspikes/spikes which are very annoying to it, so it can come more easily on the field than specs/scarf Jynx. Also i don't completely agree with "Jynx is really hard to bring into battle", sure it's not easy to bring Jynx like it is for Rapidash for example but it's not that hard, it can come on some Pokemon :
Water-types : Jynx hardwalls

(without stone edge or crunch but who run that ??) &

(only on special but it's the more popular (i think))(blue>red) thanks to Dry Skin and the Ice-type, it also can come on

usually without any troubles because often the 1st move that Qwilfish will do is Taunt/Spikes even if Jynx should be wary about TWave and also Tuthur the

& the broken

are often free switch-ins for Jynx.

Altaria : Jynx can come pretty easily on

which is one of the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame, Jynx doesn't care on being toxic because it doesn't have a good longevity anyway and will doesn't stay on the field more than something like 3 turns max, and :

0 SpA Altaria Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dry Skin Jynx: 124-148 (45.7 - 54.6%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO (very sad)(Eq is worse).

VoltTurn : I found some mons that makes good core with Jynx like Beka the

, almost every Thwackey's answers are very weak to Jynx like

or

but this core is very weak to

so

can complete this core very well adding another U-turn !

is cool too especially against more offensive teams where it can just volt switch freely often into Jynx even if there is a ground because ground-types fear Raichu's Surf, and Jynx can weaken or remove grass types like Eldegoss or

-Super for it ! Almost every VoltTurn users can bring Jynx on the field actually, because Jynx is a big threat for almost every Pokemons slower than it and very few can take a hit.

Slow Special Pokemons : Jynx can take a hit of a lot of Special mons slower than him if necessary like

(77-91) , non-specs

(80-95) , and special laevin

(82-97 of specs modest), so you can hard it on one of them at least one time in an emergency situation.

So, Jynx come easily on the field or not ?
Jynx alone, it's very hard to bring it on the field due to it's horrible bulk especially physical, but it paires very well with a lot of VoltTurn users and it's easy to find a good partner for it, so Jynx depends a lot of teammates to come on the field and do it job.


Secondly, yes, it's almost impossible to have a hard-counter of Specs Jynx but it rely on a prediction and just a Ice-Resist + Psy-Resist can deal with it + some Pokemons can check on what move Jynx is locked to bring the good resist after, but the fact that Jynx is not choice-locked is more annoying to deal with and the lack of power is compensated by Lovely Kiss which allows to not rely on a prediction (at least, it's not a 33/33/33 anymore but just a 50/50 with "Jynx will attack or it will Lovely Kiss ?") !

Some calcs on some mons that we can think they are Jynx' switch-ins (or checks) but they are not because of Lovely Kiss !
Articuno

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO
Clefairy

252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Coalossal

252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
Cramorant

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cramorant: 124-147 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Frosmoth

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ice Scales Frosmoth: 90-106 (32 - 37.7%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
Kangaskhan

252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
Lickilicky

252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 180-212 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manectric

252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Miltank

252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 216-256 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninetales

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 153-180 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rapidash

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 160-190 (59 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Silvally-Dark

252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 250-296 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For calcs with Focus Blast, you can just hit a Focus Blast and after finish with 2 Psyshock/Ice Beam to not have to rely on a move with 70% accuracy.
Only one Pokemon can switch on Jynx without any problems :
Wishiwashi

My thoughts on Jynx ?
Jynx is one of the best wallbreaker in the tier if it's not the best, we can play around it with Lovely Kiss because we can think that Jynx will often do Lovely Kiss in first, but if it's Scarf or Specs Jynx ? I will stay with my Qwilfish to take the Lovely Kiss but be OHKO by Psyshock because it's Specs Jynx ? Or i will put my less useful Pokemon to absorb the Lovely Kiss but if it's a Jynx without Lovely Kiss i will just lose a Pokemon or be heavily weakened, and anyway even a Jynx with Lovely Kiss can choose to not do Lovely Kiss in first so it's just a 50-50 to win against this mon if you don't have Wishiwashi. Jynx forces a 50-50 with Lovely Kiss or not and i don't find it healthy in any metagame, so to me, Jynx is completely banworthy.

 

[Jett]

It's been pretty interest seeing the discussion recently, and while the Rotom debate has been largely covered I thought I might bring light to/reemphasise a few of the details. Before we start though, this was some cool art of Rotom that we can all appreciate :D.

Alright so onto the points:
The shifts weren't that significant for Rotom
Obviously losing two of its defensive answers in Ferroseed and Audino would help Rotom a fair bit but given how most of Rotom's power is perceived to be in its ability to endless pivot around teams, neither Ferroseed or Audino stopped Rotom from doing that and bringing in a wallbreaker to deal with both. Ferroseed in particular suffered from longevity issues given its only form of recovery is Leech seed; Volt Switch damage, Will-O-Wisp burn, and hazards can quickly accumulate on Ferroseed allowing for Rotom to "beat" it long-term. Audino on the otherhand faired much better in the long term thanks to Regenerator but still would have to worry about Trick and mindgames with Substitute Nasty Plot sets (although they suck at the moment given the offensive nature of the metagame, and SubNP being a fish for specific walls. Lastly, people never really mention Jellicent since Rotom faired well into it but Jellicent's departure has allowed for some Water-types to flourish, namely Basculin which is faster than non-Choice Scarf Rotom and actually threaten it/gain momentum off it with Flip Turn. While this is a somewhat cherry-picked example, the shifts are not as one-dimensional as people say as to favouring Rotom. Rotom still does the burn or pivot on everything playstyle that it has since we still have the same Ground-types as pre-shift; it's just more people are more aware of this after 2 months post Silvally-Ground ban.

"Unstoppable" Volt Switch isn't unique
While Raichu is definitely a cut below Rotom, it can equally punish Ground-types from switching into its Volt Switch with Surf, which is in fact better in some matchups like Rhydon. Obviously Rotom is preferred on pretty much every team since it has much better typing, utility, an ability that further allows it to capitalise on Ground-types etc, but functionally they can play pretty similar since the main goal is just to Volt Switch and create sources of momentum. Rotom has more options because of WispHex which directly warps the metagame surrounding Electric-immune Pokemon. When it comes to differentiating the two Pokemon, another argument as to why people believe Rotom to be problematic is set diversity, but honestly there are only two sets worth running at the moment in 95% of scenarios in the current metagame as they they pretty much cover what Rotom does with its other sets but on a wider scale; the first is Choice Scarf and the second is WispHex. People often overstate that Rotom can run Choice Specs or this NP variant etc. and while these sets can be nice on specific teams, they don't really add much if anything as to why Rotom is so strong and the counterplay to these sets is probably the most different between Choice Scarf and WispHex, everything in between is covered so long you cover the extremities, though its debatable how easy this is to do.

Closing Thoughts
We're currently in a pretty heavy pivot metagame; great defensive and slow pivots in Clefairy and Wishiwashi, while we also have other offensive pivots such as Thwackey and Silvally-formes. Banning Rotom won't really shift us away from this fact. All of these Pokemon enable other Pokemon because they create opportunities via their pivot moves with Rotom falling into the latter group. We can actually compare Rotom somewhat to some banned Pokemon in a sense that also fall in this group namely the Silvally-formes in Dragon and Ground. These were both multi-functional breakers and pivots, each finding ways to overcome their expected counterplay (Iron Head beat Fairy-types, Ice Beam beat Tangela). Rotom follows this trend of breaking past expected type counterplay, which is why it can feel oppressive to deal with. A big difference, however, is Rotom is initially much weaker since it doesn't have a broken 120BP STAB move, and therefore has more of a focus on enabling than breaking(although it definitely can). At this point I'm pretty sure a Rotom suspect is near universally welcome. While I've harped on a lot about reasons as to why Rotom isn't as problematic or more so points that shouldn't be used to argue for Rotom's ban in this post, I'm actually pretty indifferent as to whether Rotom leaves or not. It definitely has some play patterns which I don't think are the most healthy thing for the metagame and the way we have to deal with Electric-types isn't ideal, which has been mentioned a lot by the pro-ban players but is it overbearing to an extent where we'd need to get rid of it... not too sure.

 

[SpaceGirl]

hi
here to give thoughts coz

rotom

this thing is the absolute hot topic rn,arguably the best pokemon in the metagame . Its main draw is its ability to pivot so efficiently,which allows it to bring in wallbreakers that would otherwise be tough to bring in,like or . It does this by ripping through things that can stop its pivoting,aka ground types and lighting rod mons. The former are a bunch of good mons, like etc,the problem is that none,and absolutely none of these have the ability to check wisp-hex rotom,proly its best set.They lose their offensive prowess which makes them good,and their longevity is hindered,not to mention that they now have to eat a stab unresisted 130 bp move. This helps not only rotom,but also other things that the grounds are supposed to check,like ,which is why this rotom-skuntank core is so efficient. And the lighting rod mons are just a magnet for the second stab so they dont actually count much
sooo how do we even check this?? Well a big drawback is the fact that rotom doesn't actually hit *that* hard , its more of a pivot than a breaker. Does that make it bad, hell nawww. Makes it more annoying than the wallbreakers tbh,coz at least we have some stuff that can stop the wallbreaker,but rotom just pivots on everything. Is that really big enough of an issue to warrant a suspect? Absolutely. A suspect doesn't have to be a mon which will kill you in one hit,its for mons which are unhealthy presences in the metagame. Does rotom count as that? imo yes. Would i support a ban tho? Well yes but actually no?maybe?idk?. I feel like if a suspect test is held,its gonna be faaaaar from a lopsided result. Its sort of a general consensus that ground was more of a comfort ban, and i see this the exact same way. Get it out coz its annoying asf lol.

jynx

I've been seeing talk about banning too, and i'll be very honest, im surprised people consider it problematic lol. Like sure,its hard to switch into,specs is strong,and boots sets sleep you. But its soo prediction reliant. Vs a well constructed team,you will nearly never have a clear stab to throw off,much less focus blast or lovely kiss,coz not only do they miss,but if you predict wrong,you cant take a hit at all,bar water moves coz dry skin. Now,water types did get better with these shifts,which means jynx can come in on them....wait nvm it cant. is not only a very good check to jynx,it also ohkos it with u turn if jynx tries to come in on scald/liquidation. Basc threatens it less,but if you're me you run head smash basc,but it still chips you with ice beam+you'll be taking rocks if you're choiced+tbh that's a very easy double. Arctovish exploits the fact that jynx has no phys def,and just kills with a couple crashes. Now people will say,its not hard to bring it in via pivots,and i can't argue with facts, is amazing,but imo choiced jynx sets are hard to play with,and non choiced are weak,so even if you bring it in,you'll still have to work hard. Now for the biggest nail imo,:wishiwashi is incredible,arguably the best defensive mon in the tier,and it checks jynx very nicely. Not to mention fire types like etc also check it very well. Another big drawback is the fact that it literally dies to everything faster than it (except basc), , etc, hence it opens itself,and your team,upto an offensive assault by these mons,and most of them are very good.
So basically,its way more of a paper threat,has checks that naturally fit on teams,not broken bro