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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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CHECK. CHECK CHECK CHECK. There's a difference between a check and a counter. A check may only be able to switch into a portion of the move set or make whatever switch out after a ko, a COUNTER can switch in with relative impunity. I find it funny how he mentions people being unable to identify a check, names one and you still don't realize it as a check. That's the most frustrating thing about this retest, people that don't understand basic concepts crying that Craw is broken.
The problem with checking crawdaunt offensively is that unlike magnezone, your checks need to be pretty friggen healthy to take out crawdaunt or else they just die to Aqua Jet. For example...
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Is it a check? Yes, and a fairly solid one at that. However, the fact that it can do this much to one of it's best offensive checks means that you really want to make sure that your virizion isn't taking even neutral hits, because if it takes too much damage, it's gone.
This is compounded by the fact that Virizion simply cannot swap into crawdaunt.
Regardless, Magnezone had plenty of offensive checks too, even more then crawdaunt has thanks to no priority. It's still BL. Unless you can provide an argument for Crawdaunt being less broken then Magnezone, I am not going to change this opinion.
>literally a 5hko
i can't take you seriously that isn't shit obviously you should be packing something that has defensive synergy with viriz. if you're telling me a 5hko is going to be doing damage to it while it switches in even after taking a hit then you obviously dont know what you're talking about because virizion has no reason to be fearing this lol
i can't take you seriously that isn't shit obviously you should be packing something that has defensive synergy with viriz. if you're telling me a 5hko is going to be doing damage to it while it switches in even after taking a hit then you obviously dont know what you're talking about because virizion has no reason to be fearing this lol
I don't wanna post here and restate something that's been stated 500 billion times, both in accurate and in misguided words and thoughts, but I'm probably gonna end up doing it anyway. My thoughts on Crawdaunt are basically...Yes, this mofo is broken. Badly as I wanna refrain from comparing it to Magnezone, I think it's hard not to. You got two slow wallbreakers who pretty much can take a big dump on most of the tier with their STABs alone. While they are, as stated, slow as death, Crawdaunt's got a few more tricks up its sleeve than Magnezone, who just narrowly made it back to BL for the time being. Even though Crawdaunt's predictable in the sense that you know at least 3 of the moves it's packing (Crabhammer, Knock Off, Aqua Jet), it can literally squeeze whatever the heck it wants to in the fourth moveslot. And this fourth moveslot alone is what adds to Crawdaunt's prowess as a threat. (This is now the part where I stop comparing it to Magnezone)
Of the moves you could run in the 4th moveslot (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Aerial Ace, Superpower), two of them have the capability of ensuring that Crawdaunt's offensive checks remain nothing absolutely more than checks at best. Superpower dismisses Hydreigon, though you have to nail it on the switch. Even then, a Crabhammer/Knock Off is still a 2HKO, which makes it easy to pick it off with something else later. I guess Superpower's also its best answer to opposing Crawdaunt, but it's probably the least useful of its extra moves. My personal fave is Aerial Ace, because Chesnaught gets whacked. Virizion gets whacked. That Toxicroak you thought you were such a clever and smart child by bringing in? Get whacked. Pretty much any Grass or Fighting types trying to come in get bodied, allowing Crawdaunt to just continue what it was doing. Dragon Dance is the one I've been seeing the most lately (If you do run DD, you can probably scrap Aqua Jet for Aerial Ace or Superpower, but it's still useful at times if you can't set up safely) and for good reason. Gets a bit more of the offensive presence in Speed and Attack, but it suffers what I call "DD Scrafty Syndrome". That being it really needs 2 Dragon Dances before it can really start sweeping uninterrupted, because a good amount of fast Pokemon (+Speed base 100s and above) still outpace the guy at +1, and a good few of them can still kill it. Swords Dance can be seriously threatening in its own right as offensively, the only things standing up to it after an SD better be able to outspeed it and survive a +2 Aqua Jet. Everything else in between is getting hammered out badly. Though that one is probably easier to check if one is running Chesnaught, at the least.
I don't feel it's utterly broken and unstoppable, as it takes some decent execution to use Crawdaunt. Not to mention it still has some other checks I never touched on such as speedy Mega Blastoise, Phys. Def Mega Ampharos (God of UU), POLIWRATH, so on and so forth. Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention the CB set. Some dude showed it can 2HKO defensive Mega Ampharos, which is...pretty scary. But the CB set requires a ton more prediction and can be played around to some extent. Still deadly though, and another point on Crawdaunt's 'broken-ness'.
At the very least, I think it's agreeable that Crawdaunt can fit very easily into most Balanced/Offense teams, and in the hands of even a master-level choke artist and weak ladder guy such as myself, it's able to secure at least a kill per game. Its offensive presence shakes things up in the metagame, and it can really do a number to a huge portion of Pokemon in the metagame, including a number of its own checks. When you put all that together in one, I guess you could say Crawdaunt is pretty unhealthy. Just my take on it, maybe I'm overreacting, but that's just how I feel.
tl;dr: Crawdaunt's much unhealthier for the UU metagame than Magnezone, and everything you could say "counters" it can be covered in one way or another. It's got a long list of checks, and even though it can't beat every single one of them in one set, it can give most of them a run for its money with the right move(s).
Edit: PS, this is coming from a guy who felt the UU phase where Crawdaunt itself, Diggersby, and all those other guys you booted were legal and UU was a funner place. So yeah I promise you this is not coming off of bias lol
Of the moves you could run in the 4th moveslot (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Aerial Ace, Superpower), two of them have the capability of ensuring that Crawdaunt's offensive checks remain nothing absolutely more than checks at best. Superpower dismisses Hydreigon, though you have to nail it on the switch. Even then, a Crabhammer/Knock Off is still a 2HKO, which makes it easy to pick it off with something else later. I guess Superpower's also its best answer to opposing Crawdaunt, but it's probably the least useful of its extra moves. My personal fave is Aerial Ace, because Chesnaught gets whacked. Virizion gets whacked. That Toxicroak you thought you were such a clever and smart child by bringing in? Get whacked. Pretty much any Grass or Fighting types trying to come in get bodied, allowing Crawdaunt to just continue what it was doing. Dragon Dance is the one I've been seeing the most lately (If you do run DD, you can probably scrap Aqua Jet for Aerial Ace or Superpower, but it's still useful at times if you can't set up safely) and for good reason. Gets a bit more of the offensive presence in Speed and Attack, but it suffers what I call "DD Scrafty Syndrome". That being it really needs 2 Dragon Dances before it can really start sweeping uninterrupted, because a good amount of fast Pokemon (+Speed base 100s and above) still outpace the guy at +1, and a good few of them can still kill it. Swords Dance can be seriously threatening in its own right as offensively, the only things standing up to it after an SD better be able to outspeed it and survive a +2 Aqua Jet. Everything else in between is getting hammered out badly. Though that one is probably easier to check if one is running Chesnaught, at the least.
I don't feel it's utterly broken and unstoppable, as it takes some decent execution to use Crawdaunt. Not to mention it still has some other checks I never touched on such as speedy Mega Blastoise, Phys. Def Mega Ampharos (God of UU), POLIWRATH, so on and so forth. Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention the CB set. Some dude showed it can 2HKO defensive Mega Ampharos, which is...pretty scary. But the CB set requires a ton more prediction and can be played around to some extent. Still deadly though, and another point on Crawdaunt's 'broken-ness'.
At the very least, I think it's agreeable that Crawdaunt can fit very easily into most Balanced/Offense teams, and in the hands of even a master-level choke artist and weak ladder guy such as myself, it's able to secure at least a kill per game. Its offensive presence shakes things up in the metagame, and it can really do a number to a huge portion of Pokemon in the metagame, including a number of its own checks. When you put all that together in one, I guess you could say Crawdaunt is pretty unhealthy. Just my take on it, maybe I'm overreacting, but that's just how I feel.
tl;dr: Crawdaunt's much unhealthier for the UU metagame than Magnezone, and everything you could say "counters" it can be covered in one way or another. It's got a long list of checks, and even though it can't beat every single one of them in one set, it can give most of them a run for its money with the right move(s).
Edit: PS, this is coming from a guy who felt the UU phase where Crawdaunt itself, Diggersby, and all those other guys you booted were legal and UU was a funner place. So yeah I promise you this is not coming off of bias lol
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 187-221 (57.7 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
68.2 + 24 = 92.2
Virizion needs to have at least 92.2% of its HP left to effectively check crawdaunt. Otherwise it has a chance of being shut down without getting an attack up. If it switches into ANY of crawdaunts moves that are not superpower or aqua jet. It's a goner. I know that is a lot of min-max even the minimum damage is still 81.7% which is still outragous, especially with repeated switchins making Aerial ace more of a viable move choice if crawdaunt wants to save himself a turn of LO damage on the expected switch in. Yes its a check but oh gosh its so flimsy.
A single spike turns this check into death fodder and it can only switch in to crawdaunt once unless its full pdef spamming synthesis, but how viable is that?
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With This logic We could Being
no offense People but just because BBL X counters BL Y doesnt make it less Broken. Using that logic We migth as well start bringing back Some ubers fbecause uber x counters uber y
Which is exactly why the current suspect tests are run the way they are, so as to avoid the scenario of broke checking broke. Hence, the favor of erring on caution with the quick bans so I wouldn't worry as this is exactly what the council aimed to avoid.
But there is a possibility that by dropping a bunch of BL's down to the tier, an immediate power creep will emerge and alot less Pokemon will be deemed broken. It's probably not the case right now in XY UU but in general, I don't think this approach is utterly wrong.
No. What those calcs show are when you attempt to counter Crawdaunt with Virizion as opposed to checking. For checking, only the Aqua Jet calcs matter as Virizion outspeeds, and CC always KO back, meaning it will never be taking a Knock Off or AA when checking Crawdaunt. If anything this shows Virizion being a flimsy counter provided hazzards and crit aren't factors and is a solid check.
Did you just seriously quote a 2 month old post lol
Also if Brokemon A is needed to check Brokemon B it's pretty clear that Brokemon B is broken. Brokemon A being broken has nothing to do with that.
For example, Weavile is needed to check Thundurus-T. But Weavile at the same time also breaks the metagame like Thundurus-T. Hence we have the following situations:
1. Weavile and T-T not banned: both are broken af anyway
2. Weavile banned, T-T not banned: fuck T-T broken af
3. Weavile not banned, T-T banned: fuck Weavile broken af
4. Both are banned: ok cool no more broken af shit in here
What the UU council is aiming for is the last situation, so the best solution would be to just kick both out of the tier.
Now, back to Crab. tbh I'm kind of on the fence as to whether Crawdaunt is op or not since it's mostly Knock Off that makes him such a threatening sweeper. Not only that, most Dark resists are easy prey to a Crabhammer, furthering Crawdaunt's threat level. Crawdaunt can also opt to run a coverage move to fuck over switchins and stuff, which makes him even more ridiculous. Analysing the various sets, CB/SD crawdaunt doesn't really mind resists much because it's just gonna do a fuckton to whatever shit that walks in anyway, unless it's something like Toxicroak. DD is really lethal and shits all over unprepared teams, but priority makes it easy to stop.
tbh how good is Virizion actually outside of beating crab? I'm actually pretty genuinely interested because pre-crab there was like literally zero discussion on him and suddenly when crab comes in Virizion starts popping up out of nowhere. I'm not saying that Virizion is a bad Pokemon by any means, but it just seems really interesting because i have literally never faced one before ._____.
The point of the calc is not that crawdaunt is beating virizion 1v1 any time soon. No one is arguing that. My point is that if Virizion is weakened to about 25% HP, it can no longer function as a check. Virizion, atm, is one of UU's best crawdaunt checks and is quite possibly the closest thing UU has to a counter.
So to even check crawdaunt, you need to resist aqua jet, outspeed crawdaunt, and OHKO it. If you don't resist aqua jet, crawdaunt will generally KO most offensive mons at around 50%, which is unacceptable for a check. If you do resist it, aqua jet is still taking 20%+ of your health, meaning you need to keep your check healthy or it's pretty much GG.
In magnezone's case, your virizion can be at 1 hp, and it still functions fine as a check. So I still stand by my point that crawdaunt is more broken then magnezone.
That being said, if magnezone wasn't broken, then I literally have no argument, because my argument is quite literally "crawdaunt is more powerful then magnezone, magnezone is broken, therefore crawdaunt is broken."
but that argument can be used for any check, lol ?_?
you're overstating crawdaunt way too much. while i did say earlier that good priority is the icing on the cake for crawdaunt its not all you're making it out to be. you should be bringing these checks in while they're at a risk-free range (IN OTHER FUCKING WORDS A SAFE SWITCH IN AS I HAVE BEEN STATING THIS ENTIRE TIME). and if crawdaunt is going to be killing a weakened virizion like you claim to be then you should try and keep it healthy throughout the match so when their virizion checks / counters are gone then you can bring it in safely.
theres also the fact that crawdaunt has piss poor defenses and can easily be revenged (i.e. hera tanking the aqua jet and ohko'ing with a cc).
also TM13IceBeam i wouldn't really be using virizion lol, i was just using it as an example of an offensive check to craw. chesnaught is a better answer tbh but its not as good as an overall offensive mon as virizion is.
you're overstating crawdaunt way too much. while i did say earlier that good priority is the icing on the cake for crawdaunt its not all you're making it out to be. you should be bringing these checks in while they're at a risk-free range (IN OTHER FUCKING WORDS A SAFE SWITCH IN AS I HAVE BEEN STATING THIS ENTIRE TIME). and if crawdaunt is going to be killing a weakened virizion like you claim to be then you should try and keep it healthy throughout the match so when their virizion checks / counters are gone then you can bring it in safely.
theres also the fact that crawdaunt has piss poor defenses and can easily be revenged (i.e. hera tanking the aqua jet and ohko'ing with a cc).
also TM13IceBeam i wouldn't really be using virizion lol, i was just using it as an example of an offensive check to craw. chesnaught is a better answer tbh but its not as good as an overall offensive mon as virizion is.
What I'm saying is, if you have Craw in on Suicune/Blastoise/Bulky Water, are you really going to stay in and try to set up and risk eating at least two Scalds and hoping not to get burned? You need to be at +2 to have a chance to ohko Cune, while it's doing about 25% back with Scald.
So ive been playing a lot lately with Crawdaunt and I have to say it is indeed really good, great offensive typing, resisting sucker punch, great ability and great boosting moves in sd and dd. I have to say that the swords dance set is the best set as this can just destroy teams mid game/late game only at +2, also the cb set is amazing as well, but requires more prediction to be played well.
But when it all comes to an end Crawdaunt can be really hard to set up, and its walled by one off the most common offensive pokemon in the game Hydreigon. Also the reason why it struggles to set up is because its to frail and to slow, which basically means it can only set up on stuff that cant touch it. While it does hit hard and has nice priority, and boosting moves, I really dont find it broken and I feel it really doesnt limit teambuilding at all as it can be easely checked offensively, so in my opinion Crawdaunt should be voted UU because it has flaws thats big enough to hold it back atm.
Edit: Also Godsend most Crawdaunt should run lum berry to safely set up on scalds, get a free knock off on stuff like Mew that tries to wow it.
But when it all comes to an end Crawdaunt can be really hard to set up, and its walled by one off the most common offensive pokemon in the game Hydreigon. Also the reason why it struggles to set up is because its to frail and to slow, which basically means it can only set up on stuff that cant touch it. While it does hit hard and has nice priority, and boosting moves, I really dont find it broken and I feel it really doesnt limit teambuilding at all as it can be easely checked offensively, so in my opinion Crawdaunt should be voted UU because it has flaws thats big enough to hold it back atm.
Edit: Also Godsend most Crawdaunt should run lum berry to safely set up on scalds, get a free knock off on stuff like Mew that tries to wow it.
No switch-in is safe when there is a Crawdaunt on the Opponent's side of the field.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 156-185 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
That wall tho! And as an added bonus you can lose that item too :]]]]]]]]
It's worth noting that Crawdaunt is plenty capable of doing things other then setting up. The only time crawdaunt can setup is when a player expects the opponent to swap. Crawdaunt is pretty good at forcing swaps and gets setup opportunities through that.
Bouffalant To get something into crawdaunt safely, something's gotta take a hit. Whether it be via mon dieing, slow u-turn/voltswitch/BP, or hard swapping into it, if crawdaunt gets in, it's gonna hit something, hard. Very few offensive things can take a knock-off/crabhammer + the aqua jet follow up, so hard swapping something in is usually not an option. So that means that you either need to sac a mon to crawdaunt (which tends to be a bad thing) or have something slow volt-switch/u-turn/whatever into your check, which means that previous something takes a decently hard hit and has probably just lost its item. That is why the ability to simply check crawdaunt is not a good argument for it not being broken.
Frankly, checks only really apply to setup sweepers, due to setup, and thus momentum, being lost upon being forced out. For wallbreakers like crawdaunt and magnezone, they have a lot of instantaneous damage, so by the time you force them out, they probably have already conducted a favorable trade. And while crawdaunt is capable of being a setup sweeper, it is only capable of setting up due to the switches it forces, not terribly unlike calm mind/gravity lando-i in OU.
I can't say Virizion was ever that good or relevant especially with the choices of Fighting types available, he didn't exactly fill any niche and Chesnaught competed with him for a slot (although they play differently the typing certainly has value). He is not bad just... He did not offer anything new to the table that other fighting types already did so but with a more above average attack stat.
Well, at the moment from what I can see a lot of the people who are saying that its broken are using a lot of calcs and theory and the people who tend to say that it isn't broken is in practice.
At the moment what I really want to see is replays, replays for how broken it is or why it should stay in UU.
Surprisingly I haven't seen many Crawdaunts so far, and when I have they haven't been too overly threatening, just as threatening as say Nidoking is to me.
We can theory all we want, but I'd like evidence of how it works so well in practice, as I have heard a few saying that it struggles to setup when a lot of people include their calcs after it has setup at least one SD or DD.
So lets cut the crap and get some solid evidence of the game itself, please.
At the moment what I really want to see is replays, replays for how broken it is or why it should stay in UU.
Surprisingly I haven't seen many Crawdaunts so far, and when I have they haven't been too overly threatening, just as threatening as say Nidoking is to me.
We can theory all we want, but I'd like evidence of how it works so well in practice, as I have heard a few saying that it struggles to setup when a lot of people include their calcs after it has setup at least one SD or DD.
So lets cut the crap and get some solid evidence of the game itself, please.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-120147093
this is a pretty good example of what happens if you have to rely on scald burning. i think it also showcases why cb daunt is really good too (cb superpower sort of checks curselax if it has less than 3 curses). i mean really what option did my opp have to take a knock off? clearly the ampharos wasn't physically defensive (entei did way too much for that) so he had literally nothing except the best bulky water in terms of physical bulk in uu. and it faltered. its so easy to wear down daunts checks and counters like ampharos as i didn't quite prove but suggsted in the game with random guys like cb entei that happen to share a lot of the same checks as daunt.
honestly i am surprised at the amount of debate i though daunt was clearly broken
and this is a game showing the utility of cb daunt in terms of priority and how it can do work even if you have to fight a megatoise
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-120151463
it's not like i'm even cherry picking games these were just two random back to back games i literally just played 5 minutes ago and saved because i read your post rowdog. you can even check the replay upload time as proof c:
this is a pretty good example of what happens if you have to rely on scald burning. i think it also showcases why cb daunt is really good too (cb superpower sort of checks curselax if it has less than 3 curses). i mean really what option did my opp have to take a knock off? clearly the ampharos wasn't physically defensive (entei did way too much for that) so he had literally nothing except the best bulky water in terms of physical bulk in uu. and it faltered. its so easy to wear down daunts checks and counters like ampharos as i didn't quite prove but suggsted in the game with random guys like cb entei that happen to share a lot of the same checks as daunt.
honestly i am surprised at the amount of debate i though daunt was clearly broken
and this is a game showing the utility of cb daunt in terms of priority and how it can do work even if you have to fight a megatoise
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-120151463
it's not like i'm even cherry picking games these were just two random back to back games i literally just played 5 minutes ago and saved because i read your post rowdog. you can even check the replay upload time as proof c:
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I totally agree. If Crawdaunt is really as broken as people claim then why is it so underused in the first place?
Why don't people use it in OU? Is it because anything 'Daunt can do, Azumarill does better?
There are Pokemon that terrorize the lower tiers but are terrible in the upper tiers, best examples of this are Hawlucha and Zygarde. They're not "terrible" by all what it means, they're just a lot worse than how they were/are in UU. Crawdaunt is still scary as fuck in OU, but there are also many other wallbreakers that have more speed, bulk, and even power, and are just as scary if not more.
That doesn't mean it can't be broken in the lesser tiers. That's why banlists like Ubers, BL, and BL2 exist.
You shouodnt let a pokes usage dictate if its broken or not. If a poke is overcentralizing the meta in an unhealthy way, then that poke is broken. Adaptability bypasses any resist issues. Aqua jet patches up the lack of speed. Dd and sd boost its power and speed. Knock off got buffed and is adaptability boosted. The pokes that can take crabhammer or knock off (chesnaught and hydreigon for the most part) are maimed by aerial ace/ice beam and superpower. No wall can switch in safely against and force daunt out. it has the power, coverage and ability to sweep most of the meta with little effort and only shaky counters at best. This is the definition of an unhealthy broken threat. Just because the masses dont realize this doesnt change the fact that daunt is a massive broken threat.
Oh and i forgot to mention toxicroak and suicune along with hydreigon and chesnaught as who can take a hit. Toxicroak is destroyed by aerial ace and cant take a boosted knock off. As far as suicune, it has scald but it takes 68-80% on a +1 knock off and is outsped by non bulky daunt 252 neutral . If daunt decides to run lum berry as you hope for thr burn, then suicune is gone. Even with life orb at +1, daunt is doing almost 40% to suicune...
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 56.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(139, 142, 143, 144, 147, 148, 149, 151, 153, 155, 156, 157, 160, 161, 162, 165)
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