np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[kd24]

ok so heres a list of broken mons:

alakazam: this thing is too fucking good, it can run either sash with 4 attacks (psychic/shadow ball/focus blast/grass knot) or life orb with 3 attacks and substitute. the problem with zam is that its just too powerful of a revenge killer in a tier where everything resistant to psychic is basically frail to spikes or sr (which are on everyteam because of the current meta). the only counters are shadow ball/foul play sableye, spiritomb, and thats it. your only other option is revenging with scarfers ... well they better have pursuit, because zam's magic guard prevents him from having any reason to stay in at risk of death. the only reliable pursuit scarfer ive seen has been adamant krookadile (jolly has a chance of not ohkoing)

the problem with scarfed pursuiters though is that focus blast ohkos all of them, the only one who isnt is drapion who is honestly dreadful and you will never see one.

hippowdon: this thing makes every team the same and honestly makes zam even more broken as well. ignoring zam, the sandstorm he provides is the perfect fit for the meta - and makes every team the same and almost impossible to defend against. stoutland is probably the biggest offender, he has plenty of hard counters but the problem is, they are taking 20-30% switching in and hes pretty much always faster. hippowdons niche comes in the fact that he hard counters almost all of these stoutland counters. in the end, the opponent trying to counter stoutland and hippo wont be able to keep up with the damage stoutland and hippo dish out. as an added bonus, the other 4 pokemon on these teams are usually counters to stoutland counters (water/rose for spikes/golurk/zam) and are taking those turns to set up entry hazards.

if you take out hippo, the meta changes for the better easily - stoutland goes back to having to need hippopotas and becomes easily managable and teams become more diverse again.

 

[jamashawalker]

Both you and Heysup are way off base.

Use the manliest Pokemon ever, the mighty Choice Band Aggron.

With the amazing success I had with CB Torterra..i'm gonna try to build a team around CB aggron...it seems like it has too many pokes to come in on and smash around with headsmash with aqua tail as coverage against hippo..

It seems like everyone has been having success with slow bulky CB

 

[Heysup]

Both you and Heysup are way off base.

Use the manliest Pokemon ever, the mighty Choice Band Aggron.

If you want to be walled by Hippo, Donphan, Hitmontop, and Rhyperior, yea do that. MANperior > VAGron.

ok so heres a list of broken mons:

alakazam: this thing is too fucking good, it can run either sash with 4 attacks (psychic/shadow ball/focus blast/grass knot) or life orb with 3 attacks and substitute. the problem with zam is that its just too powerful of a revenge killer in a tier where everything resistant to psychic is basically frail to spikes or sr (which are on everyteam because of the current meta). the only counters are shadow ball/foul play sableye, spiritomb, and thats it. your only other option is revenging with scarfers ... well they better have pursuit, because zam's magic guard prevents him from having any reason to stay in at risk of death. the only reliable pursuit scarfer ive seen has been adamant krookadile (jolly has a chance of not ohkoing)

the problem with scarfed pursuiters though is that focus blast ohkos all of them, the only one who isnt is drapion who is honestly dreadful and you will never see one.

hippowdon: this thing makes every team the same and honestly makes zam even more broken as well. ignoring zam, the sandstorm he provides is the perfect fit for the meta - and makes every team the same and almost impossible to defend against. stoutland is probably the biggest offender, he has plenty of hard counters but the problem is, they are taking 20-30% switching in and hes pretty much always faster. hippowdons niche comes in the fact that he hard counters almost all of these stoutland counters. in the end, the opponent trying to counter stoutland and hippo wont be able to keep up with the damage stoutland and hippo dish out. as an added bonus, the other 4 pokemon on these teams are usually counters to stoutland counters (water/rose for spikes/golurk/zam) and are taking those turns to set up entry hazards.

if you take out hippo, the meta changes for the better easily - stoutland goes back to having to need hippopotas and becomes easily managable and teams become more diverse again.

I actually agree about Alakazam he's fucking impossible to beat with offensive teams in a semi-reliable way. Most viable counters are 50/50 guessing games and Focus Sash basically requires you to carry two.

I see a big whole in your Hippowdon argument though because you're ignoring a whole batch of Hippowdon / Stoutland counters that overlap. Anything with a powerful STAB Earthquake can pick sand teams apart. For example, Rhyperior can counter Stoutland and then all of the Pokemon you list get destroyed by Earthquake; Hippowdon is 2HKOed, Roserade is OHKOed, Most Water-types are OHKOed (Suicune survives but can't Recover), Golurk is OHKOed, Stoutland is OHKOed. If you don't carry something like Misdreavus you lose to every STAB Earthquake. Roserade also beats down SS teams with Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Rest, etc. You can't kill it and you have nothing to wall it.

 

[alexwolf]

If you want to be walled by Hippo, Donphan, Hitmontop, and Rhyperior, yea do that. MANperior > VAGron.

Not getting into the Aggron vs Rhyperior argument,just posting to say that Aggron 2hkoes or 1hkoes everything you listed except from Hitmontop with Aqua Tail.

 

[Pocket]

Aggron actually does more to Hitmontop with Heavy Slam than Rhyperior's EQ. </trivia>

I'd still go with Rhyperior, though, since it can check more things with Solid Rock (like Darmanitan).

 

[SJCrew]

Use the manliest Pokemon ever, the mighty Choice Band Aggron.

Choice Band Aggron, meet Hippowdon, the fattest thing in all of UU since Chansey. Every time you are thinking about Head Smash, you should be thinking about him instead, and not bother to use anything besides coverage moves until he dies (never). This is what happens when you have only one good move instead of two or three *coughMANperiorcough*

 

[Heysup]

Not getting into the Aggron vs Rhyperior argument,just posting to say that Aggron 2hkoes or 1hkoes everything you listed except from Hitmontop with Aqua Tail.

Well you kinda just got into it.

I didn't say that you can't 2HKO them, but you can't spam your most powerful STAB move and 2HKO all of them. If you use Aqua Tail, they can just switch into their bulky water/grass and recover off of the damage. Earthquake doesn't give the option for bulkier Pokemon to come in. If they have an immunity, fine, but you OHKO those with Stone Edge, it isn't just a dent then switch out ordeal.

Rhyperior is just stronger and more adept at demolishing Sandstorm teams. It should be noted that Aggron takes less damage from Stoutland though.

Aggron actually does more to Hitmontop with Heavy Slam than Rhyperior's EQ. </trivia>

I'd still go with Rhyperior, though, since it can check more things with Solid Rock (like Darmanitan).

I don't know how Heavy Slam calculations even works "exactly" but either way, Earthquake still 2HKOes it and unlike Aggron it can survive a CC.

 

[Pocket]

Heavy Slam damage formula

But yea, Ground STAB is much better than Steel STAB. The fact that Aggron's Head Smash hits 26% harder than RHYPERIOR's Earthquake or Stone Edge is something worth considering, however. The raw power of Head Smash can let it 2HKO mons that resist Rock moves (ie Empoleon & Machamp).

Unfortunately it's not good enough to let Aggron 2HKO everything. Quagsire is a good example where Rhyperior's superior Ground STAB and 140 base Attack makes a large difference.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I see a big whole in your Hippowdon argument though because you're ignoring a whole batch of Hippowdon / Stoutland counters that overlap. Anything with a powerful STAB Earthquake can pick sand teams apart. For example, Rhyperior can counter Stoutland and then all of the Pokemon you list get destroyed by Earthquake; Hippowdon is 2HKOed, Roserade is OHKOed, Most Water-types are OHKOed (Suicune survives but can't Recover), Golurk is OHKOed, Stoutland is OHKOed. If you don't carry something like Misdreavus you lose to every STAB Earthquake. Roserade also beats down SS teams with Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Rest, etc. You can't kill it and you have nothing to wall it.

Quoting for truth.

 

[jamashawalker]

Why not just use both...both are used to punch holes in teams and people both have strong attacks that oppenents can barely take...lol so far using both has proven too strong for alot of ppl..

Hippo, Stout, rose, zam, filler, filler

Standard UU metagame team

 

[kd24]

If you want to be walled by Hippo, Donphan, Hitmontop, and Rhyperior, yea do that. MANperior > VAGron.



I actually agree about Alakazam he's fucking impossible to beat with offensive teams in a semi-reliable way. Most viable counters are 50/50 guessing games and Focus Sash basically requires you to carry two.

I see a big whole in your Hippowdon argument though because you're ignoring a whole batch of Hippowdon / Stoutland counters that overlap. Anything with a powerful STAB Earthquake can pick sand teams apart. For example, Rhyperior can counter Stoutland and then all of the Pokemon you list get destroyed by Earthquake; Hippowdon is 2HKOed, Roserade is OHKOed, Most Water-types are OHKOed (Suicune survives but can't Recover), Golurk is OHKOed, Stoutland is OHKOed. If you don't carry something like Misdreavus you lose to every STAB Earthquake. Roserade also beats down SS teams with Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Rest, etc. You can't kill it and you have nothing to wall it.

cb rhyperior is probably the most reliable but just because one pokemon can function well vs teams doesnt mean you just ignore the other broken quality of the teams - that being said, idk how rose is reliable, stoutland easily kos as does zam, and you dont even have hazards

rose is pretty good vs this specific team i guess for beating 2 mons but doesnt beat the meta as a whole - meanwhile this team does

 

[PK Gaming]

If you want to be walled by Hippo, Donphan, Hitmontop, and Rhyperior, yea do that. MANperior > VAGron.

Aqua Tail does enough to Donphan and Hippo, Hitmontop takes quite a bit of damage from Heavy Slam (42.8% - 50.7%) AND Jolly Aggron outspeeds and 2HKOes Milotic and Suicune.

Of course, its obvious that Rhyperior is better than Aggron. Way more bulk, better defensive typing, a more reliable stat spreads and it checks more threats. Still, Aggron shouldn't be ignored, its one of those high risk / high reward type pokemon.

 

[Heysup]

cb rhyperior is probably the most reliable but just because one pokemon can function well vs teams doesnt mean you just ignore the other broken quality of the teams - that being said, idk how rose is reliable, stoutland easily kos as does zam, and you dont even have hazards

rose is pretty good vs this specific team i guess for beating 2 mons but doesnt beat the meta as a whole - meanwhile this team does

My point was that there are common, very dangerous Pokemon that beat sandstorm teams to a pulp.

It's not a broken strategy it's just a very effective one.

 

[kd24]

uhh rhyperiors not common at all and its one of very few pokemon that can fare well vs ss because of its immunity to sand, high defense, normal resist typing, ability, and ability to hit switch-ins hard.

and even then, its not a surefire counter, its just by far the best check to sand in general.

 

[Heysup]

Well isn't it kind of unreasonable to check an entire team at once with one Pokemon? As long as people can carry 1-2 Pokemon that walk all over sandstorm and are still very effective against other teams I see no problem with it being around. As I said, sandstorm being so common was probably why I was #1 for so long. The top of the ladder used sandstorm and I used Rhyperior.

 

[Whimsicott]

However absolutely necessary Rapid Spinners are in UU they are completely frickin useless, near every spinner is too easily walled and blocked or free setups. I have to agree with above Xatu seems far more useful as long you can get him in and out whenever you need to.

Donphan- Does nothing to most ghosts and is a free switch in for Roserade to setup more.
Hitmontop- If it doesn't nail a Toxic every Ghost in existence will stomp all over it and is even a easy switch in for Golurk who almost always gets a KO off if you let it in. It also again does nothing to Roserade who gets a free setup.
Blastoise- Makes a good bulky water but has no offensive presence without sacrificing tons of bulk and survivability and still isn't terribly effective against more ghosts. Also yet again Roserade lols all over it.
Claydol- What do you know...Roserade shits all over it again...and most ghosts too.
Cryogonal- Is more likely to actually threaten some ghosts but otherwise doesn't offer much besides a new rock weakness but at least has recovery, if only it had something resembling defense.
Torkoal- SR weak and spike vulnerable without recovery and mediocre defenses...yeah.
Armaldo- Same deal as above but with actual offenses, its still doing nothing to most ghosts though.

If anyone has any ideas/movesets/partners for how the hell to get that Rapid Spin off without having to go out of your way (AKA useless moves like Foresight) I'm all ears, till then I think prevention is better.

Magic bounce is just too unreliable especially with Xatu. Xatu isn't going to be walling stuff and its job is hard especially with let's say Rhyperior, Aerodactyl, Donphan, Empoleon, Mamoswine, and much more; all of these are common in UU. ON TOP of this, Xatu gets set-up on by Raikou, Mismagius, Mew, Froslass, Azelf, Suicune, Cobalion, and so much more. Look at the stats from the UU tier: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455782. Would Xatu enjoy taking hits from Donphan, Heracross, Victini, Arcanine, Mismagius, Zapdos, CM Slowbro, CM Mew, Milotic, Froslass, etc..? No, and these are the most common pokemon in UU for September not counting the new threats like Chandelure, Darmanitan.

For your sitting ducks problem Roserade won't enjoy switching on an earthquake on Donphan. Hitmontop has foresight and Roserade won't enjoy Hi Jump Kicks or even Close Combats. Blastoise can have of an offensive presence and has Roar for ghosts. Too lazy to comment but Torkoal isn't offensive at all... wtf? Torkoal has amazing physical defense but it just sucks that it's a fire type.

 

[alexwolf]

Aggron actually does more to Hitmontop with Heavy Slam than Rhyperior's EQ. </trivia>

I'd still go with Rhyperior, though, since it can check more things with Solid Rock (like Darmanitan).

While this is theoretically true,practically they do the same!Come on Pocket it is only a 0,01% difference...

Also after your mention of Heavy Slam i went and did some calcs about this move on some UU pokes to see if it is of any use and i found the following:
This move has 120 BP against(excluding resistors) Heracross,Hitmontop,Roserade,Mismagius,Chansey,Mew,Deoxys-D,Azelf,Nidoking,Ambipom,Weavile,Togekiss,Dusclops,Shaymin,Nidoqueen,Stoutland,Umbreon,Xatu,Sigilyph and Aerodactyl in UU.
A pretty impresive number of pokes since Aggron is pretty heavy.
But i am mentioning this to compare the power of the stabs of Aggron to the stabs of Rhyperior.In my comparison the factor of accuracy is same for both moves since accuracy directly influences power.
Also in every comparison i am reffering to not only BP but the Atck stat of each poke.
Finally i am comparing Head Smash vs SE and Heavy Slam vs EQ 'cause teh first 2 are of the same type and they have same accuracy so it is easier to keep them in equal terms.

So Head Smash vs Stone Edge is pretty obvious.Aggron wins this one by quite a large amount.

Now let's see Heavy Slam vs Earthquake.As Pocket said Aggron wins this one also but by a abysmal amount,so small that you practicaly can treat them as equal.

So we can see that Aggron doesn't lack power in comparison with Rhyperior.
Of 'course Rhyperior's advantage over Aggron is that he has STAB on the Edgequake combo.

Also Rhyperior has better resistances for a physical wall and even though Aggron has higher physical bulk,this is offset by his bad weaknesses and Rhyperior's ability.

So the conclusion is that Aggron can actually be even a better wallbreaker than Rhyperior,'cause his most poweful move is stronger than Rhyperior's,but he is more situational as he lacks the great STAB on the Edgequake combo and is not so suited for a physical tank.

Hey Heysup why don't you try Aggron over Rhyperior in your team and tell us your opinion about him.Their roles are somewhat similar countering Stoutland and some other physical attackers.
I am asking you to do this for 2 reasons:
1.I am in vacations and
2.The opinion of an expert is always the best.

Of 'course any other trying Aggron would be awesome to tell us how he does as a CBer in today's meta.

 

[Drifloon]

Has anyone been using last gen's spDef Arcanine? As of now it's been my MVP and probably only really beaten by like sand. I run Sunny Day Roserade alongside it just so I can neutralize the sand so morning sun doesn't become worse.

 

[Banedon]

I actually agree about Alakazam he's fucking impossible to beat with offensive teams in a semi-reliable way. Most viable counters are 50/50 guessing games and Focus Sash basically requires you to carry two.

I'm coming very close to changing my mind on Stoutland, for the same reason. He OHKOes or 2HKOes while outspeeding like every offensive Pokemon not resistant to Return (and there aren't many who are resistant / immune to it and are not vulnerable to Crunch / Wild Charge). He's like the Excadrill of UU. Sure you can wall it with some walls, but he blows through offensive team sans Rhyperior like paper. Just look at that:

CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Raikou: 89.8% - 106.2%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 169.4% - 200%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Flygon: 91.4% - 107.6%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Heracross: 95.7% - 113.2%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Kingdra: 81.5% - 96.6%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Zapdos: 81.4% - 96%

Calcs like this are not encouraging; everything is OHKOed with SR. Not only can you not switch into Stoutland, you have no hope of outspeeding either. If Sand Rush gave +1 speed instead of +2 such that you could actually outspeed with Scarfers, Stoutland wouldn't be an issue, but as it is I'm very tempted to change my mind.

 

[Godsend]

If anything is broken, it's Alakazam. It can, just about literally, one or two hit KO every Pokemon in the tier, bar Chansey and Snorlax, all with one set. Even if it isn't sweeping teams, it'll bust holes right through them, supporting like no other. Pretty much having Alakazam another strong special sweeper, and you are going to cause problems for your opponents. Also, the fact that it only runs one or two sets adds to the argument of it being broken. It's not like Dragonite in OU where people give the 252hp/252atk/252sp.d/252speed/ jolly/adamant/careful/ thunderwave/outrage/earthquake/fire punch/dragon claw/extreme speed@lefties/life orb/lum/ choice band. Whenever you see Alakazam, you know what's it's going to do, yet there is very little you can do to stop it.

 

[Drifloon]

I agree, ban Alakazam. That thing is way too strong for this tier, it can more or less wreck any team that doesn't run a scarfer/priority. Substitute lets it beat sucker punchers and it can even muscle through Chansey with CM Recover. Steel types are significantly rarer, and focus blast hits them as well. While it is the most predictable thing, nothing can stop this beast. Ban.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm coming very close to changing my mind on Stoutland, for the same reason. He OHKOes or 2HKOes while outspeeding like every offensive Pokemon not resistant to Return (and there aren't many who are resistant / immune to it and are not vulnerable to Crunch / Wild Charge). He's like the Excadrill of UU. Sure you can wall it with some walls, but he blows through offensive team sans Rhyperior like paper. Just look at that:

CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Raikou: 89.8% - 106.2%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 169.4% - 200%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Flygon: 91.4% - 107.6%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Heracross: 95.7% - 113.2%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Kingdra: 81.5% - 96.6%
CB Adamant 252 Attack Stoutland Return vs. 4/0 Zapdos: 81.4% - 96%

Calcs like this are not encouraging; everything is OHKOed with SR. Not only can you not switch into Stoutland, you have no hope of outspeeding either. If Sand Rush gave +1 speed instead of +2 such that you could actually outspeed with Scarfers, Stoutland wouldn't be an issue, but as it is I'm very tempted to change my mind.

This is just not true.Stoutland is far from UU's Excadrill.Forgetting for a moment their completely different relevant power levels,Excadrill also was the best offensive Rapid Spinner and had a superb defensive typing,qualities which Stoutland lacks.

Now let's see if there are pokemon with offensive power that can check/counter Stoutland.
We have Rhyperior as already mentioned and we also have Cobalion and Tehcnitop.Also any offensive ghost,like Mismagius or Golurk, can act as a very good check to CB Stoutland.Sure it comes down to prediction but offensive teams play like this anyways.They almost never rely on counters,mostly on checks.
Also there is RD Mixdra that can screw up an entire SS team after Stoutland kills something.
There is also Bisharp which is a very good check and takes everything except from a Fire Fang.
And these are all i could think for now,i am sure that there are many others.

Offensive teams have plenty of options for dealing with Stoutland imo.And don't forget the pressure that offensive teams apply on the opponent.
When will Stoutland come in?
It cannot directly switch in in almost anything an offensive team has and if he comes in after you kill something then you are already ahead.
Even if we assume that Stoutland kills every poke it hits,as long as you have your check alive it is not going to sweep you since YOU are dictating the pace of the match and you are the one killing first.
So you kill something and then he kills something.Rinse and repeat and you will find out who will be the loser...

 

[Godsend]

I agree, ban Alakazam. That thing is way too strong for this tier, it can more or less wreck any team that doesn't run a scarfer/priority. Substitute lets it beat sucker punchers and it can even muscle through Chansey with CM Recover. Steel types are significantly rarer, and focus blast hits them as well. While it is the most predictable thing, nothing can stop this beast. Ban.

Exactly, and I'm not really a ban happy person (I felt like Thunderus/Exca should have stayed). Alakazam is far too powerful for the tier, with the right stat distribution. I don't care that it dies to a slight breeze, it doesn't really matter because it doesn't let the breeze touch it.

 

[Drifloon]

Im under the impression that specially defensive Arcanine is its /best/ set. Honestly, it is ridiculously good, even with sand being on every other team. If you can run a sunny dayer it can wall stuff really well. Physical attacker seems cool but isn't as strong especially without permanent sun. It dies really fast, while specially defensive has a shot of living with morning sun. It's also the coolest bulky water lure since scald only does around 40%

 

[breh]

arcanine is pretty awful though. it's walled by everything that exists.

EDIT: Ok, I could have been better with that, I guess. It's walled by chandelure if it's not carrying lolcrunch and it's always walled by hippowdon, arguably the most influential pokemon in the tier right now. It has bulky water issues as well.