This is the main fallacy in my argument, probably due to my own haste in finding an "ou example to uu pokemon" that wasn't Deoxys-e. Crobat's obviously much different than Azelf in terms of play. Perhaps the fairer comparison is Froslass and Azelf.
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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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Crobat doesn't effectively counter itself, true. However, unlike with Deoxys-S (the most easily comparable Pokemon), there are actual options for dealing with it beyond itself. Electrode and Registeel leads can Thunder Wave it (though of course Electrode does this better). Regirock walls it and forces the Crobat user to make a tough call; if it doesn't Taunt or switches out, it risks letting it get SR up, while if it does, it could wind up with a Stone Edge to the face. Any Scarfed Pokemon at 71 Speed or above will outspeed max speed Crobat, and if they have decent offensive abilities, such as Medicham, Espeon, Rotom (and also Gallade and Froslass), ect. they should be able to handle it well enough.
Crobat is good, but I don't think it's BL good. Unlike Deoxys-S, which beyond Taunt had Screens and SR, it's best support options are weather moves and a Hypnosis if its lucky. It also helps that there are Pokemon that have Scarf as a dent option on them which outspeed Crobat, such as ScarfCham, and TrickScarf Rotom/Espeon, so they don't really have to give much of anything up to beat Crobat, whereas with Deoxys-S, things like Weavile, which really otherwise has no reason to, had to run a Scarf to defeat it. Plus, even without Scarf, there's still Anti-Lead Regirock and Electrode, which deal with it well. So, I don't really feel it to be too much for UU.
Crobat is good, but I don't think it's BL good. Unlike Deoxys-S, which beyond Taunt had Screens and SR, it's best support options are weather moves and a Hypnosis if its lucky. It also helps that there are Pokemon that have Scarf as a dent option on them which outspeed Crobat, such as ScarfCham, and TrickScarf Rotom/Espeon, so they don't really have to give much of anything up to beat Crobat, whereas with Deoxys-S, things like Weavile, which really otherwise has no reason to, had to run a Scarf to defeat it. Plus, even without Scarf, there's still Anti-Lead Regirock and Electrode, which deal with it well. So, I don't really feel it to be too much for UU.
Crobat has Taunt and U-Turn though. It can also utilitze Brave Brid, so it can act as a threat later. It has to be countered by a Scarf Lead (and admittedly, Crobat is not going to care as much about a Scarf as other pokemon) and it has good defenses to boot. And even if you Trick a Scarf onto it, it has still completed it's main mission, to Taunt. Unfortunately, it isn't quite as limited as you think.
Please do go on. What exactly does he use?
I'm very interested in this as well. I've always wanted to use Regirock, but he just never seemed effective enough in practice...
I think he means this set for Anti-Lead Regirock. I think :S
This lead would not work though (but it may be the one he's referring to). Taunt shuts it down. U-Turn can allow Crobat to switch to a Ground (thinking Steelix) to take the Thunder Wave. In Steelix's case, if they use Body Slam, they are just powering up Gyro Ball. And high defense grounds usually have the capability to shrug off low power physical moves.
But on the other hand, Regirock can Rock Slide if Crobat Taunts and SR if Crobat decides to U-turn on turn 1. So yes, someone who has perfect prediction and a ground type would make the Regirock not work. Otherwise, the result of the lead battle is a complete toss-up
Hmmm... are you sure Rock Slide will OHKO Crobat. I'll have to check that. Some queer pokemon you would not think could survive supereffective moves can, so I'll check that.
And yes, you are right, not every team runs Ground types. Just as not every team runs Scarfers, and not every team minds Paralysis. Also, not every team runs Priority either, just stating so before we get there.
It doesn't have to be countered by a Scarfed Pokemon. I gave the examples of Electrode, who outspeeds and threatens with Thunder Wave, and Regirock, who walls it and it will have to make a tough choice against (if it U-turns or switches out, it risks letting it get SR up, while if Taunts, it risks getting a Stone Edge to the face and either way, it's not actually going to hurt it much).Relictivity said:
As for the Scarfers, as I pointed out, there are ones that aren't limiting themselfs by using one that can handle Crobat. Against Crobat, Espeon can Physic, Medicham can Psycho Cut, and Rotom can T-bolt, whereas against other leads they Trick away their Scarfs or do whatever other action is appropriate. Yes, Crobat has Taunt, but that really doesn't matter against offensive Pokemon that can KO it before it does anything, nor against Pokemon like Regirock, who it can't touch and can threaten with Stone Edge/SR depending on what it does.
And against TrickScarf, Crobat won't be in the best of positions either if its first move is a Taunt. The Tricker throws a Scarf onto Crobat, it Taunt, and becomes locked into it because of the Scarf. So, it will have to switch out, letting the opponent then either get a free attack or switch in themself. Only once they come back in, the Taunt is gone and Crobat will be forced to choose a move to lock itself into, most likely U-turn. So, that may not be the best scenario for the Crobat's oppoent, but it's not the best for Crobat either and can be worked with.
Pretty much, it's just the Toxic Support Regirock from the Analysis used as a lead except without the Toxic;Exclamation Point said:
Regirock@Leftovers/Expert Belt (To avoid LO damage and the hazards of Choice Band, while still getting a boost of attacking power)
Careful
252 HP/252 SpD/6 Def
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
Hammer Arm
Explosion/Ice Punch/EQ
Edit: Calculating the damage, Regirock does 63.19% - 74.73% to the first Crobat in the analysis with Stone Edge (349 Atk vs 328 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 230 - 272 (63.19% - 74.73%)) while holding Leftovers. However, if it switches to Expert Belt, it does 75.82% - 89.56% (349 Atk vs 328 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 276 - 326 (75.82% - 89.56%)), which means that after that Stone Edge, if Crobat switches out, it again risks SR going up and it dying when it switches back in, whereas if it doesn't and Taunts, it risks dying to another Stone Edge. It does require a bit of prediction, but that's also ture on the Crobat side, and has promising results.
I never really understood why Crobat was a suspect. I read through some of the bold votes, and none of them explained to me why it was a suspect. It was nearly always was under the "Support" characteristic, but all it really can do in terms of support is Weather; Roost and Taunt don't allow other Pokemon to sweep, nor does U-turn. There are many Pokemon capable of setting up weather, so wouldn't the more logical thing to do make those broken weather-abusers suspects? I'm not buying that Crobat was so good at setting up weather that it made Kabutops broken in a way that any other Pokemon couldn't. A fast U-turn is actually a disadvantage for Pokemon that sets up weather, because you don't want the Pokemon to take damage coming in. Even if it was really good at setting up weather, I don't see how that makes it suspect material.
The set I saw the most complaints about was Taunt/Roost/U-turn/Brave Bird. I saw things like "stops other set-ups", but again, non sequitur, does preventing other leads from setting up really that broken? The Deoxys-S comparison is a very, very poor one, for three reasons.
1. Deoxys-S had insane speed, which let it outspeed Scarfers without Base Speeds that were already very high. Crobat's 130 Base Speed is really good, but it's still outsped by most generic Scarfers.
2. Deoxys-S could set up a screen to avoid a OHKO from almost anything it faced. Crobat can't boast this.
3. Deoxys-S could then use this time it gained by stopping leads to set up other Pokemon to sweep. The closest Crobat gets to this is by setting up weather, which was very uncommon on him and I'm not convinced is that strong of an argument, considering how few complaints I've seen of weather abusers.
If you can't set up against Crobat, and your Blaziken is OHKOed by Brave Bird, then what can you do against Crobat? Use something that can take a hit and deal one back. It doesn't have to be super bulky either, a Brave Bird resistance like Rotom or Raikou will get the job done. Arcanine is a popular lead that can Intimidate Crobat's weak Brave Birds and hit it hard with Flare Blitz. Rock-types, particularly Rhydon, are also obviously good counters.
The set I saw the most complaints about was Taunt/Roost/U-turn/Brave Bird. I saw things like "stops other set-ups", but again, non sequitur, does preventing other leads from setting up really that broken? The Deoxys-S comparison is a very, very poor one, for three reasons.
1. Deoxys-S had insane speed, which let it outspeed Scarfers without Base Speeds that were already very high. Crobat's 130 Base Speed is really good, but it's still outsped by most generic Scarfers.
2. Deoxys-S could set up a screen to avoid a OHKO from almost anything it faced. Crobat can't boast this.
3. Deoxys-S could then use this time it gained by stopping leads to set up other Pokemon to sweep. The closest Crobat gets to this is by setting up weather, which was very uncommon on him and I'm not convinced is that strong of an argument, considering how few complaints I've seen of weather abusers.
If you can't set up against Crobat, and your Blaziken is OHKOed by Brave Bird, then what can you do against Crobat? Use something that can take a hit and deal one back. It doesn't have to be super bulky either, a Brave Bird resistance like Rotom or Raikou will get the job done. Arcanine is a popular lead that can Intimidate Crobat's weak Brave Birds and hit it hard with Flare Blitz. Rock-types, particularly Rhydon, are also obviously good counters.
I don't think you are getting what I am trying to say. Crobat doesn't mind scarf as much as other pokemon, because it switches commonly.
Also, although Regirock may be getting up Stealth Rock, it will be letting in another sweeper, probably Shaymin. Again, check the damage calcs, though, Crobat is decently bulky for a fast pokemon. It was stated earlier that if given a few HP EVs it survived Frosslass's Ice Beam.
Note that Crobat has roost for Stealth Rock, though it can't utilize it if it has been choice tricked. However, none of these pokemon can do both.
*I think I'm going to try and end this here, we are getting to close to therymon. I think.
Why would you send in Blaziken into a Crobat???
Also, not all Crobats are used for weather.
Crobat I believe was made a suspect because of it's ability to stop almost all other leads. It would take a very specialized lead to beat crobat, one that is almost geared towards beating it. I don't think people understand how important early rocks or spikes is in a UU match. Crobat's ability to stop all attempts at rocks and spikes in the beginning and it's ability to earn favorable match ups using u-turn, while may not seem very important is very vital to certain teams. Also it's ability to come in on any grass pokes and threaten them with brave bird coupled while it's ability to be a revenge killer are also very important reasons why it was banned. The other sets like weather activation and NP sets are just the icing on the cake. The reason why Crobat can be defined under the support characteristic is not because it can set up weather, but because it is a great team player and can allow a good player to outmanuever his opponents effortlessly meanwhile providing a very solid check to the hard hitting but slow threats in UU.
I edited in calcs to my post:
Plus, Crobat does mind being Scarfed, since it's SR weak. This normally isn't too much of a problem, since it normally has access to Roost to take care of that. However, once Choiced, Crobat doesn't have access to that anymore, and it can't switch as much as it likes.Naxte said:
As for the sweeper switch-in, once it's in, I'll switch to a counter for it; Crobat's done with though, so it's not too relevant. The sweeper might be able to get in, but it would be at the cost of Crobat's life, with no guarantees that it will actually successfully sweep.
I've provided examples of several Pokemon running non-specialized, standard sets that also happen to beat Crobat. The closest I've come to specialized is sets is my Expert Belt Regirock:demon238 said:
None of those are really speacialized; they're just Pokemon running normal sets, which also happen to take care of Crobat nicely.Naxte said:
Indeed, once it is scarfed, it can't roost.
But also note the fact that it survives a Stone Edge and Taunts means you can't Stealth Rock. U-Turning, the Crobat User sends in a sweeper that will force your pokemon away and then set up. Then, once that pokemon dies, the Crobat user can send in Crobat to roost off 50% of his health, removing the disadvantage.
This Regirock would damage Crobat alot, but I don't think it commmonly runs as a lead. Does it?
Crobat was being used mainly to counter Froslass, who is also gone so it will probably be interesting to see what leads now since most of the leads were Crobat, Froslass and Scarfer X.
Shaymin isnt nominated because it loses to so many random pokemon as opposed to Staraptor/Gallade. Also Grass is an awful stab.
Im more upset that Snover wasn't nominated, but with Froslass gone it will probably make hail not as broken/appealing in the end.
TBH, that looks like a poor mans Crobat with Toxic Spikes.....but its probably viable since Crobat will be gone. I'll give it a try(Im using TSpikes/Taunt/SD/NSlash lead with 300 Speed). Im not sure how important it is to be that fast anymore without Crobat and Froslass around. Ambipom is easily dealt with by Drapion.
Easy explination imo. Shaymin was used more because there are so many different Roles for it. Bulky Subseeder, Choice Specs, Swords Dance, Aromatherapist and of course the ever popular Life Orb set.
Crobat really only had one role, Lead.
Also Crobat wasnt really discovered in the beginning of the test, while Shaymin was used heavily at the beginning and seemingly got slightly less used later in the test, but it was still used enough to keep 3rd obviously.
Or Regirock could simply SE twice, killing it. As said, it requires some prediction, but that goes for both sides, and it can work.
As for how common it's used, that's irrelevant. What matters is that this is a viable option on Regirock, which can stop Crobat. And this is just Regirock. Even without it, there's still Electrode, Rhydon, Scarfers, ect. There are plenty of ways of dealing with it, so I can't see why Crobat should be BL, especially since it doesn't really make any Pokemon borken with its form of support, Taunt, nor does it even guarantee the switch-in safety (it can be predicted and be hit with an appropriate attack or the switch can be predicted and the opponent also switches, resulting in a double-switch and no gain made).
Edit: And I had done the calcs incorrectly for Stone Edge; I was using the wrong tab, which I had set for something else. The correct calcs are 77.15% - 91.39% without Expert Belt and 92.58% - 109.50% (53.85% chance of OHKO) with.
Heysup, we all know you don't like hail, but you cannot nominate a pokemon for suspect if you don't know how it affects the metagame. Abomasnow was 23rd in usage, meanwhile snover is non existant in usage. The point of the suspect test is to examine a metagame devoid of the suspects and compare it to the metagme with the suspects. If snover never actively participated in the metagame, how can we make a judgment as voters if snover is broken or not. This is not about making your team better or getting your rating higher, this is about creating a balanced UU metagame, and banning snover off theorymon is not going to help the process. This is only the first suspect test with more to come later, if snover proves to be exceedingly popular and effective in the coming months then I have no doubt that the people will make the right decision and nominate him for testing. As for now I played zero teams with snover in it, so I have no experience with it in general, and therefore I have no right to make a judgment on it and neither should you or anybody else.
Erm... Crobat U-Turns Second Turn, so no Second SE hit :(
Also, for some reason other people consider the fact of popularity (not my fault). Apparently, Gimmicks (in this case, the fact that it is in lead position) are not good enough, if they have never been used before in that manner (again, not my rules, I got a point for suggesting a gimmick). Basically though, you are forced to run a scarfer who cannot necessarily KO Crobat. However, I do think that they would consider this gimmick ok if you went and tested it out to success, so try that out with a friend or something like that. <sighs> I think I (and probably others) am very confused about what arguments are acceptable and what are not.
This was a big reason I thought they both should be suspects. There literally was almost no variables in the lead choice in a metagame that is thriving with many different variables. Crobat exists to shut down Froslass, who shuts down pretty much all other (non-scarf'd) leads.
Isn't one of the goals of the process to have as many playable pokemon as possible. In my nomination I came up with a list of around 7 pokemon that would imeadietly become viable non-scarf'd leads if Froslass and Crobat are removed.
You really shouldn't have to resort to a Scarf'd lead to beat two specific leads.
Turn one: Crobat used Taunt. Regirock used Stone Edge.
Turn two: Crobat used U-turn. Player switches in Shaymin. Regirock used Stone Edge.
(Beaten!)
That really isn't dealing with Crobat. You've hit it once with Stone Edge, and then done very little damage to Shaymin (for example) who is threatening to KO you if you don't switch. Unless you have a second SR user, which people rarely do, then you have to rely on Regirock to get back in to set up SR's. I would not hesitate to Taunt Regirock in any situation I came up against him in, knowing that I could always switch in something next turn to threaten him giving me (the crobat user) the upper hand in the battle.
I also haven't even mentioned you'd be relying on a move with 80% to deal with Crobat. That's no guarantee.
Except Crobat is faster than Regirock, so unless it tries to Brave Bird or Roost, it'll be gone before the second attack.
Except actual switch-ins happen before U-Turn occurs, so the Crobat user can still switch to the appropriate Pokemon.Naxte said:
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that Crobat doesn't seem BL worthy, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument (so that you can rectify them, of course :P).
On the topic of Crobat, what's the fastest commonly-used Scarf user that also counters Crobat rather well? I have a crazy idea for an Anti-"Anti-Crobat" Scarf Lead (that probably won't work), but I need to know what Speed I need to surpass. The fastest I know of is Espeon, but does it run max Speed with a Scarf?
No, it does not have to run Max Speed as far as I know. However, you will have to watch out because Crobat may decide to U-Turn, killing Espeon, fearing a powerful, incoming STAB Psychic. And Choice Scarf won't stop it. However, there should be a way around that...
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