np: UU - A New Beginning

[Random Pizzaman]

I agree with the artic one, the best ways to beat hail (walrein specifically) is not to attack it. Remember it has an SR weakness? Remember it only has 1 attacking move at most?
When I'm faced with Walrein and I hail, i just spam roar with Blastoise until Obama shows up. Also, anything faster than Walrein with a rock/ powerful neutral special attack defeats it quickly. And things like Ambipom with double hit

 

[guoguo]

I think people are missing a HUGE part of Hail vs Sandstorm.

Ice Body =/= 1.5 Sdef boost.

Ice Body, with protect and substitute give a Pokemon the ability to PERMANENTLY, at the most take 1% Damage per turn. Walrein has the defensive stats to pull this off, as there are a shit ton of pokemon it can set up subsitute on. You need to attack this thing 75 times on average to kill it, without sacrificing a pokemon, and you need to HAVE the right pokemon. It also needs to have leftovers, and be immune to Toxic. SDef boost is a GREAT aspect to a metagame. Its really a clever thing, while not being broken, like walrein+hail.
32 times would be the accurate number, and one hit would be all that you need to kill an unsubbed Walrein. And while it is nice to have an immunity to toxic, it's not necessary to have it. Any resttalker not weak to Surf/Blizard will have no trouble whatsoever outstalling Stallrein. That's not even taking into consideration the ways the_arctic_one suggested about dealing with Stallrein.

7ay, in your post especially, you forgot another main point. Sand Veil on a Slow ass terrible defensive typed pokemon with spikes is NOT broken. Froslass can be taunted by like 3 Pokemon, most of them getting OHKOd by Blizzard. Froslass is ALOT better in any case then a pokemon who does not even receive the secondary benefit of Sandstorm, being the SpDefense Boost, but Froslass can still Blizzard for 100% Accuracy.

I think it really shows the lack of thought people put into this topic when they start comparing Sand Veil on an terrible spiker like Cacturn, to Snow Cloak on an amazing Spiker such as Froslass. Froslass can even Block rapid spin for itself.
Who said anything about spikes? Cacturnes abuse Sand Veil by outspeeding walls and subbing until the opponent misses so it can SD up and Focus punch/Seed bomb everything to death. Spikes have no place on a Sand Veil abusing Cacturne

Also, dont bring Rain and Sun into this arguement, they are NOT permanent weather effects.
Yes, comparing Sun and Rain to Hail is a poor comparison. However, saying that Hail/SS is better than Sun/Rain just because Hail/SS lasts permanently is incorrect. Sun/Rain are used purely offensively, the weather sweepers only need enough turns to run through an enemy team. Hail and Sandstorm are more stallish in nature, which is why they need to be permanent weathers. In short, a Sun/Rain team is powerful in spite of its limited number of turns with weather, while a Hail/SS team just isn't viable without permanent weather.

For people who disagree with Snover also, i want to hear how you can deal with Walrein, while not having to pack a hail counter.
People can't deal with Gyarados without packing a counter either, both of these things must be too good for their metagame.

People see Raikou and Hail less, because they are testing new stuff.

Edit: @ 7ay, the fact that you thought of a team that would effectively counter hail shows overcentralization.
What 7ay did was metagame against the threat of hail teams. Metagaming is not overcentralization, it is simply people adapting to a threat. A Pokemon or team should only be considered overpowered in the event that the metagame's reaction is only a semi-counter like in the case of YacheChomp.

Also @7ay, you forgot your grounded poison :p

 

[Legacy Raider]

Despite all this talk I've yet to face more than a handful of decent hail teams =/, so my ideas are mostly based on theorymon and my extensive use of hail in ou.

The whole hail strategy is based extremely heavily on residual damage, namely Toxic Spikes and Spikes. If a team is packing a way to get rid of these, then it should have little problem taking a hail team on in all honesty. Froslass is not everlasting - far from it - and it is usually the only defense hail teams have against spinning. Even better are the grounded poison types such as Roserade, Venusuar and Drapion, who can't be walled by ghosts when they come in to soak up the Toxic Spikes. Really, Hail is not that scary unless you are running a full out reckless offense team, but then again said team will have trouble with any form of stall. I was really quite surprised to see how few people prepare for Toxic Spikes on their teams. Some of the top UU battlers right now (I won't name any names) run teams that are 5/6 weak to Toxic Spikes, with a Crobat lead thrown in. Perhaps if people start to take these hail teams into account they wouldn't be so devastating.

Encore Clefable, alongside a decent Fighting resist to take on the rare Hariyama, can take down the majority of pokemon on opposing hail teams, Walrein inclusive. CM Clefable can do this very easily too with Thunderbolt, although it requires having to outstall Walrein (not too difficult when you are immune to all the residual damage the team tries to throw at you). And note, while the hail team is trying to get you with residual damage, you can do the exact same back, with SR chipping off a large part of their health. Walrein, despite its tediousness, isn't exactly hard to take down if you prepare for it even in the slightest.

Hariyama, while very useful on a hail team because of its Fire resist and ability to beat Clefable, is also extremely effective in taking them on because of its Ice resist. It hits for super effective damage on nigh on everything on a hail team with Brick Break / Payback, can easily Whirlwind away Walrein to rack up the SR damage, and with its excellent defenses can take a real pounding. Once you Knock Off a Walrein's Leftovers it can no longer stall indefinitely.

Really, Hail is a viable and effective strategy, but I honestly don't see where the arguments for Abomasnow's banning are coming from...

 

[Chou Toshio]

Ok, I have to disagree with the "froslass is the only defense to spinning" point, as Spiritomb, Duskclops and Rotom are all very capable members to any team, and certainly can/do function well on the same team as froslass and hail. Spiritomb's lack of weakness and Clefable's capacity to suck up ghost attacks (and whether hail) make carrying multiple ghosts quite easy-- and dare I say wise for spike-dependant teams.

On the other hand, I will say that toxic spikes cannot be depended on in a metagame where grounded poison types are practically everywhere, and easily adapted to just about any team. That combined with Encore and PHazing at unheard of levels compared to OU, I just can't see Walrein as being all that scary.


What really makes hail obnoxious is the hail itself. At least in OU, even if you are facing a sand-based enemy team, it is very likely half your own team is immune to sand as well, what with Heatran, Scizor and other steels all over the place along with tyranitar, swampert and others. Ice pokemon are not easily mixed into non-hail teams, and there is no "anti-hail ice type" like Rhyperior or Swampert screws over enemy sand teams in OU. If Nintendo had given us an hard-hitting Ice-Fighting sweeper, I'd probably have felt otherwise. As it is, hail teams have an obnoxious degree of advantage in their own weather, and for non-weather teams the only means of getting rid of the endless infernal icicles is to randomly carry rain dance/sunny day somewhere-- which takes up valuable space for a team that doesn't use it, and can even bring one to a serious disadvantage against an opponent who can actually take advantage of it.

 

[Relictivity]

There are other ways to deal with wallrein though, phasing, being faster with a negative priority move or slower with a positive priority move, encore, taunt, snatch, changing the weather, all of these work and there's a bunch of stuff that can do these things in UU.

Why aren't people using them? because the metagame hasn't matured yet.

The next step is for such things to become extremely common, if hail teams still do not drop in popularity, then it will be much easier to make a case for perma-hail being broken, until we get there, I think we're jumping the gun a little bit.

Encore? Glaceon will jump in and hit you with a STAB Specs 100% Accurate Blizzard. Weather change doesn't work unless you have Hariyama. Phasing, again, your risking bringing in a powerful sweeper.

Also, we need to somehow level out the playing field between sandstorm and hail so that they are both viable. That is really the key point.

 

[Caelum]

Also, we need to somehow level out the playing field between sandstorm and hail so that they are both viable. That is really the key point.

I don't even understand what you are saying? Are you suggesting that we arbitrary modify the metagame to make sandstorm and hail almost equally viable?

 

[Relictivity]

I don't know. Nothing has been discussed like this ever (I think). Should we make Sandstorm=Hail Calceum? I think it could possibly be a good idea but I am willing to listen to others state why not so.

The question is, are we looking for the more viable pokemon, or more viable strategies. In a way, which type of variety is more desired. (You may think I am going completely off track here.)

 

[Caelum]

I don't know. Nothing has been discussed like this ever (I think). Should we make Sandstorm=Hail Calceum? I think it could possibly be a good idea but I am willing to listen to others state why not so.

The question is, are we looking for the more viable pokemon, or more viable strategies. In a way, which type of variety is more desired. (You may think I am going completely off track here.)

This thread has gone off track several times before so don't worry about it lol.

What you are suggesting is a path that Smogon will never go down. To somehow arbitrary modify the game such that sandstorm is equally viable to hail in this UU would be going a step too far in what our goal is for the tests. Our goal isn't to make things equally viable or usable, but to make a playable, competitive metagame. I could easily make modifications that would improve a game, but that's not the intent of this project or any project Smogon has actively taken part in. The closest project resembling modifying the metagame in terms of playable / balance is the Create A Pokemon project and that even has limitations. In short, your ideas go a bit too far for what Smogon wants to achieve.

Anyway. Getting somewhat back on topic. I honestly don't see the issue with hail teams. Yes, the 6.25% loss of health each turn is quite annoying; but there are several sweepers that can just demolish through hail stall teams no problem. Hail stall really has nothing for boosted Fighting-types, Fire-types and Encore Clefable can nearly destroy entire Hail teams on their own.

On the note of Stallrein, I've always been unimpressed with it both in OU and UU. I suppose once it gets into it's Sub/Protect cycle it can be annoying. However, with Leftovers you can nullify the hail effects and leave it essentially worthless after the cycle is complete (due to loss of PP) so it's more of a stale mate than anything. I've just never really had problems with any aspect of hail stall.

 

[Heysup]

Anyway. Getting somewhat back on topic. I honestly don't see the issue with hail teams. Yes, the 6.25% loss of health each turn is quite annoying; but there are several sweepers that can just demolish through hail stall teams no problem. Hail stall really has nothing for boosted Fighting-types, Fire-types and Encore Clefable can nearly destroy entire Hail teams on their own.

On the note of Stallrein, I've always been unimpressed with it both in OU and UU. I suppose once it gets into it's Sub/Protect cycle it can be annoying. However, with Leftovers you can nullify the hail effects and leave it essentially worthless after the cycle is complete (due to loss of PP) so it's more of a stale mate than anything. I've just never really had problems with any aspect of hail stall.

But the main debatable question is:

Should we have to pack a fire type, fighting type and an Encore Clefable just so we dont lose to Hail teams?

 

[cim]

Really, Hail is a viable and effective strategy, but I honestly don't see where the arguments for Abomasnow's banning are coming from...

My argument for "banning Walrein" is a purely hypothetical one if people deemed Hail Stall to be broken. I don't think it is, but if everyone else says so then I'd support a ban on Walrein first for various reasons.

But there is the debate i guess:

Should we have to pack a fire type, fighting type and an Encore Clefable just so we dont lose to Hail teams?

Should we have to pack a counter, or two checks just so that we don't lose to a viable strategy or Pokemon? (The answer is yes by the way)

 

[Caelum]

But the main debatable question is:

Should we have to pack a fire type, fighting type and an Encore Clefable just so we dont lose to Hail teams?

Of course you should. You absolutely should have to carry a Pokemon or combination of Pokemon that can beat an effective strategy. That's like saying "why should I have to carry something that Sandstorm teams" or "why should I have to carry a sweeper that can stop SkarmBliss". You always have to carry a counter or check to defeat a viable strategy or risk losing to it. Just because you don't want to, doesn't mean you ban something.

 

[Erazor]

I'm guessing that mostly everyone has a Fire type in their team, with Blaziken, Typhlosion, and Charizard all over. However, we shouldn't be forced to use Encore Clefable, despite its power.

Does Registeel do well against Hail teams? Iron Head tears through Abomasnow and other assorted Ice Types, while it shrugs off Blizzards. Lack of recovery hurts though.

And when are the ratings being reset?

 

[Salem1]

So how are people dealing with Staraptor? I'm getting seriously stuck with this thing. It can Roost off residual damage, it's got two high-powered STAB moves that will wear anything down and then there's Pursuit/STAB Quick Attack/U-Turn and even Substitute for a filler move. As far as I know, the only Pokemon that can do something about this is Defensive Rotom with his immunity to CC and resistance to Brave Bird. However this is rather vulnerable to Pursuit users, especially STAB'd ones, especially STAB'd ones with CB. I guess it might take time for Staraptor users to figure this out though.

It basically seems like no matter what I do, no matter how my team is constructed, Staraptor is always there to tear it a new one way or another. The best I've managed to do is to play around it and faint it off with Spikes + Toxic and the likes. Not to mention how royally annoying Intimidate is, especially combined with U-Turn. What's the forum's opinion on Staraptor?

 

[Heysup]

Really, Hail is not that scary unless you are running a full out reckless offense team, but then again said team will have trouble with any form of stall. I was really quite surprised to see how few people prepare for Toxic Spikes on their teams. Some of the top UU battlers right now (I won't name any names) run teams that are 5/6 weak to Toxic Spikes, with a Crobat lead thrown in.

Cough....cough....:P I actually dont have to much trouble with hail stall with my teams, untill Walrein comes in.


While you both have good points, there is too few pokemon that fit this role, as well as it being hard for some people to fit Clefable(Because this is the only surefire hail counter).

The point is, you cant effectively beat Walrein, without massive outplaying. Your fire and fighting types cant a) be Slower than walrein and b) use an item other than leftovers. You do 1% per turn to Walrein remember. You die alot faster from 6.25% per turn from Hail. Not to mention, your Fire type can be OHKOd by surf.

The only Pokemon that can counter hail is Clefable, let me rephrase the question.

Should every single player have to use Clefable to effectively counter Hail?

Fire and Fighting types are SO easily remedied by using a Claydol, Arcanine, Nidoqueen etc. The list goes on. Hail teams arent restricted to Ice Pokemon, its just that Hail teams effectively are a regular team but:
-Non-Ice have leftovers cancelled out. Or they take 6.25% per turn.
-Free Spikes
-A pokemon that takes 1% damage per turn, with terribly hard-to-break subs, that if you take a turn from attacking, you effectively lose.
-100% Accuracy 120 BP stab attacks on 3/6 Pokemon.

@Erazor, Registeel fails against Hail, because its set up bait for Walrein.

Also, the main difference between carring a Mixed attacker for Skarm-Bliss, is that there is only ONE pokemon who can counter hail teams. Why should we be in a metagame where our team has to carry 5 Pokemon+Clefable? I beleive Garchomp was banned for a similar reason, there were to few pokemon to counter him, you needed to carry at least 2 counters for him as well. Clearly Encore Clefable cant 6-0 a Hail team either.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

But the main debatable question is:

Should we have to pack a fire type, fighting type and an Encore Clefable just so we dont lose to Hail teams?

What I find funny about this is that you're not forced to pack all that to deal wth Hail teams. You're just not being creative enough with your team-building if you honestly think that.

I've personally found Stallrein to be a bit of a joke almost every time I've faced it. I mean it just doesn't do anything except sit there being a (BAN ME PLEASE) with Sub / Protect all day, hoping in vain to actually achieve something somehow (?) whilst you're just free to do all sorts of stuff in front of it, whether it be Taunt, Spikes / SR setup, Encore, actual setup with CM /SD etc, Roar / Whirlwind, PP stalling and many other things with all those safe free turns. I'm not convinced.

 

[Heysup]

What I find funny about this is that you're not forced to pack all that to deal wth Hail teams. You're just not being creative enough with your team-building if you honestly think that.

I've personally found Stallrein to be a bit of a joke almost every time I've faced it. I mean it just doesn't do anything except sit there being a (BAN ME PLEASE) with Sub / Protect all day, hoping in vain to actually achieve something somehow (?) whilst you're just free to do all sorts of stuff in front of it, whether it be Taunt, Spikes / SR setup, Encore, actual setup with CM /SD etc, Roar / Whirlwind, PP stalling and many other things with all those safe free turns. I'm not convinced.

But, if you give it a turn with Stat-up, Spikes etc. It can Toxic or Roar you away. It also sits at 100%, while you're sweepers just lose their health from hail.

If you dont run a Bulky, Toxic immune, Taunter or Phazer, or Clefable, Hail is rediculously difficult to play against.

 

[Stagnant]

So how are people dealing with Staraptor?

Luxray and Ampharos. Luxray has Intimidate and Ampharos has Static and is overall a bulky Pokemon. Lately I've been using Ampharos as she can punch holes into any... She does share same base attack stat as Raikou.

Edit:

Shame on anyone who uses Hail to climb up the ladder. Hail teams are the difference between top of the ladder and bottom of the ladder. The unresisted residual damage from Hail negates Leftovers and cuts out 16% health from Life Orb attackers is just over kill. Factor in the omnipresent Spikes/ SR/ Toxic Spikes and Hail teams are just to much to handle.

Abomasnow- Unpredictability, meshed with Leech Seed and 2x 120 Base Power attacks. Fire, Fighting, Rock, Bug, Poison, Flying, and Steel weaknesses. Fire + Fighting can be covered by Slowbro and Rock + Flying can be covered by Registeel. Not only are the a effective walling combination you can still throw in Wallrein, Frosslass, Glaceon, Spiritomb, or Nidoqueen and potentially have un beatable stall team.

Wallrien- "Broken" ability while in Hail. Weaknesses covered by Slowbro + Registeel. Has access to Encore, Roar, Curse, and Yawn so its not like Sub + Protect is the only set.

I don't feel like going to much further into this...

The problem is Abomasnow's Auto-Hail.

 

[Caelum]

You really don't need paper counters for Staraptor. Something faster or something that can take a hit from it + Stealth Rock do more than enough to wear Staraptor down (and I think the Roost set is just terrible so don't someone come in and nullify my SR argument by saying it can run roost since I just think that's a poor, easily countered set anyway).

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Reading this thread, it seems like Walrein under the effects of Hail is providing the most problems. Not many people find the Abomasnow itself particularly difficult to beat, and Walrein is the Pokemon it supports to such a great extent. Abomasnow helps Froslass and Glaceon, among others, but in comparison to the things that Tyranitar supports in OU...

I think the best route to take would be to ban Walrein, as a couple of other members have already suggested. Or we could test both and see what happens to UU as a consequence.

 

[Legacy Raider]

The point is, you cant effectively beat Walrein, without massive outplaying. Your fire and fighting types cant a) be Slower than walrein and b) use an item other than leftovers. You do 1% per turn to Walrein remember. You die alot faster from 6.25% per turn from Hail. Not to mention, your Fire type can be OHKOd by surf.

If Walrein is properly EVed it shouldn't be taking any damage per turn. 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpD should be used on StallRein to make its HP divisible by 16 and allow it to perfectly recover the HP lost from Substitute over 2 turns. And although your team is pretty bad for Toxic Spikes, it wasn't really the one I was referring to =P.

 

[Tleilax]

Reading this thread, it seems like Walrein under the effects of Hail is providing the most problems. Not many people find the Abomasnow itself particularly difficult to beat, and Walrein is the Pokemon it supports to such a great extent. Abomasnow helps Froslass and Glaceon, among others, but in comparison to the things that Tyranitar supports in OU...

I think the best route to take would be to ban Walrein, as a couple of other members have already suggested. Or we could test both and see what happens to UU as a consequence.

Walrein is beaten by PHazing, faster attacks, Taunt, faster status once the sub is broken, Toxic Spikes, removing Hail, etc. It can't cover everything, and it's moveset is quite predictable. Like Spiritomb, the solution is to either force it out or hammer it hard. Is it good? Absolutely. However, I don't think it's broken.

Besides, I still don't see why Walrein would be banned udner the definition of uber when it requires support to do so, which puts Abomasnow under fire, if anything.

 

[Heysup]

Walrein is beaten by PHazing, faster attacks, Taunt, faster status once the sub is broken, Toxic Spikes, removing Hail, etc. It can't cover everything, and it's moveset is quite predictable. Like Spiritomb, the solution is to either force it out or hammer it hard. Is it good? Absolutely. However, I don't think it's broken.

Besides, I still don't see why Walrein would be banned udner the definition of uber when it requires support to do so, which puts Abomasnow under fire, if anything.

You dont "Beat" something by whirlwinding it away, you just wipe out boosts, which Walrein doesnt need to use. Faster attacks cant break the sub, and nothing without Leftovers can even dream of Breaking this cyclone. Taunt works, who is a fast taunt user in the metagame, Crobat, Ambipom, i guess Drapion...Two either OHKO'd or severly damaged by Blizzard, and one 2HKO'd.

Of course the second Bold is obviously an issue too. The HARDEST thing about Walrein, is the inability to break the sub without him having a new one up in the same turn. I cant even beleive you mentioned spiritomb here lol. Spiritomb doesnt auto-heal.


I will agree again, that the issue isnt Walrein, its Abomasnow. Abomasnow AND Snover cause Walrein to have this "Broken" aspect. As well as other too-good effects with other pokemon.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Besides, I still don't see why Walrein would be banned udner the definition of uber when it requires support to do so, which puts Abomasnow under fire, if anything.

In fact, even Abomasnow doesn't fit this criteria when considering the Uber definitions in their present form, as the stall aspect is not elaborated on in the Support Characteristic.

But if we were to ignore such minor pedanticities, you'd be quite right. Either Abomasnow is broken, neither is broken, or the definitions of Uber are in need of a revision.

 

[Imran]

Moving back to what Caelum said about Staraptor not running a Roost set, I have been running the Sub Roost set, and it has been working wonderfully! With Sharp Beak, Brave Bird nabs a lot of the 2HKOs that it might not otherwise get (Spiritomb for example) although it does seem like an odd item, it really does make the set. If all the Staraptor sets that I have seen it is the most effective, especially as people generally switch in things that will try to status (Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp) and then get scared away and something gets hit hard as they are forced to retreat again. That thing has literally swept teams, against good and bad players alike.

I have also tried a Roost / Life Orb, three attack set, which I believe is the set that Caelum was thinking of, this set works poorly. Without the Substitute it is very hard to predict when one should Roost / do anything else, and you would be better off running a Spinner to deal with Stealth Rocks, which is generally a poor answer if it doesn't actually fit on your team.

And to HeYsUp, Whirlwind doesn't "beat" Stallrein if you are going to take an extremely precise definition such as that, but really, that great thing about phazing is that it removes Walrein from the field, giving you the chance to not allow it back in again later in the game. Remeber that it will take Stealth Rock damage on the way in and if you are celver enough you can get Toxic Spikes or something up to keep it out, OR you can simply ensure you are always in a position to not let it start cycling again. In short, phazing lets you "start again" against Stallrein, something you really need if it has got it's Sub / Protect going.

 

[Tleilax]

You dont "Beat" something by whirlwinding it away, you just wipe out boosts, which Walrein doesnt need to use. Faster attacks cant break the sub, and nothing without Leftovers can even dream of Breaking this cyclone. Taunt works, who is a fast taunt user in the metagame, Crobat, Ambipom, i guess Drapion...Two either OHKO'd or severly damaged by Blizzard, and one 2HKO'd.

Of course the second Bold is obviously an issue too. The HARDEST thing about Walrein, is the inability to break the sub without him having a new one up in the same turn. I cant even beleive you mentioned spiritomb here lol. Spiritomb doesnt auto-heal.

I will agree again, that the issue isnt Walrein, its Abomasnow. Abomasnow AND Snover cause Walrein to have this "Broken" aspect. As well as other too-good effects with other pokemon.

When you force it out you just kept it from recovering it's HP with Ice Body/Lefties. Assuming you have SR out, it takes 25% switching in. This makes it harder to switch back into attacks it normally might have been willing to risk. It doesn't allow it to set up it's rhythm, which is important.

The Taunt doesn't have to be fast. Walrein isn't an offensive powerhouse. Something bulky with Taunt stops it's Sub/Protect cycle, and once the Sub is broken it is essentially forced out. It allows you to dictate the terms on which Walrein can perform, which is important for dealing with it. Walrein usually carries only one attack anyway, which allows it to be walled.

Does it have Toxic, or is it relying on Toxic Spikes support? That's another huge factor. If it's relying on Toxic Spikes, grounded poisons mess it up. With Toxic, Registeel pretty much comes in for free. While Registeel can't beat it down, it can't be outstalled by Walrein without Surf. A Pokemon with Rest and Sleep Talk can work well against Wallrein, and save PP for it's attacks.

I made the Spiritomb comparison in terms of how it can be overcome by brute force. Hard hits break the Sub, force it to use up it's PP faster than it wants. It's most dangerous when it sits behind a Sub free to attack from behind it, letting Toxic do it's work. If you don't give it a chance to do so, all it can is sit there doing nothing for all those turns. Again, that's the key. Don't let it get into it's groove.

Walrein is not unbreakable. I'm not trying to say it's a simple, matter either. It's an extremely effective Pokemon that requires work to get around, but that doesn't make it ban worthy.