Err, just want to point out that I believe that EoM was referring to HeYsUp's Blaziken using Vacuum Wave there (since he was talking about switching out against Blaziken).1) U-turn has 70 BP
Err, just want to point out that I believe that EoM was referring to HeYsUp's Blaziken using Vacuum Wave there (since he was talking about switching out against Blaziken).1) U-turn has 70 BP
Yeah, Crobat is also replaceable with Swellow and Arcanine, in your statement, which is what I am trying to say.2) That is exactly his point. Using Regirock to slow down Crobat gives other pokemon free switch-ins, helping them sweep. That sounds pretty supportive to me.
It's not really my argument; I just thought I'd throw it out there. Again, I have said this isn't about Swellow or Crobat sweeping (not this particular argument, anyway) it is about how they both force you to use Pokemon that Shaymin easily exploits.Hahahahahaha, is this serious? Sure, Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it. Crobat, on the other hand, actually lets you use it AND it can stay around longer AND it can slow its counters down with Taunt. If youre argument is that Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it, that is just absolutely hilarious. You are completely missing the point. Crobat gives most of the advantages of Swellow, AND you can use it throughout the entire match. You can use Crobat as a lure for its own counters, whereas luring Swellow's counters out with Swellow forces you to take burn and unhealable SR damage.
I do not play exclusive stall. I don't really use the types of teams HeySup does, but your assumption is definitely wrong.I wonder how much your opinion would change, EUM, if you didnt exclusively play stall. Crobat admittedly loses effectiveness when it struggles to OHKO most of your team, but I wonder what would happen if you were using a team that wasnt relying on sheer defensive stats to stick around.
Just in regards to Crobat giving advantages of swellow--Hahahahahaha, is this serious? Sure, Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it. Crobat, on the other hand, actually lets you use it AND it can stay around longer AND it can slow its counters down with Taunt. If youre argument is that Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it, that is just absolutely hilarious. You are completely missing the point. Crobat gives most of the advantages of Swellow, AND you can use it throughout the entire match. You can use Crobat as a lure for its own counters, whereas luring Swellow's counters out with Swellow forces you to take burn and unhealable SR damage.
I have not nor will I deny that survivability, its ability to check offensive threats, and its support movepool are related. But its ability to draw in Shaymin bait is independent from its survivability. It makes sense, considering it mostly stems from Crobat's offensive traits. I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".EoM, you are missing his point.
You are attempting to say that, individually, none of his points qualify Crobat as broken, however, his argument says that the combination of all his individual points is what makes Crobat broken. You can point out others that draw in Shaymin bait, you can point out others with survivability, and you can point out that others have a good support movepool, you can point out others that check a large amount of offensive threats, but you CAN'T point out someone that has all of them.
Its pretty easy, since Crobat can lure out the Shaymin bait at any point in the match, while Swellow, by your own admission, has to wait until the end of the match to be effective- when your Shaymin might have been KOd already!I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".
That doesn't speak so much to the power of the other checks like Swellow as it does to the amazing power of Shaymin. It's my firm belief that both need to be suspects at least and banned at most. There are plenty of other checks to tanks like Regirock, plenty of other anti-fighters, etc, but there is absolutely NO reason to not have Crobat/Shaymin be the core of any offensive or stall team at this point.I have not nor will I deny that survivability, its ability to check offensive threats, and its support movepool are related. But its ability to draw in Shaymin bait is independent from its survivability. It makes sense, considering it mostly stems from Crobat's offensive traits. I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".
And the whole reason I have been arguing this is because viable, hard hitting Pokemon have been mentioned that check Crobat, and some have said that using them entails weakening your team to Shaymin. My response is that you are forced to use them anyway, lest you want to allow Swellow and Arcanine to rampage your team.
Swellow doesn't have to lure it out. Unless you plan on saving it until the end of the match as well, in which case I've basically neutralized one of your Pokemon, I can still abuse its presence whenever you switch it in.Its pretty easy, since Crobat can lure out the Shaymin bait at any point in the match, while Swellow, by your own admission, has to wait until the end of the match to be effective- when your Shaymin might have been KOd already!
What are you talking about? Unless you're just saying it was someone using my team, it wasn't me.And I just saw a match where Shufflebat walked all over your team...even furthering the point that Crobat doesn't have to OHKO or 2HKO its counters to support its team and hurt your opponent.
It's not wrong; I said your team without Regirock. That's my point. The presence of Regirock, while it essentially stops Swellow from sweeping, gives Shaymin a free switch-in. This isn't about Swellow actually sweeping, it's about Swellow having the potential to sweep, which forces you to use a Shaymin-bait counter.
And considering the fact you're attacking me with a 40 bp move, it sounds like a good idea to me.
Dont you see? That is the difference between Swellow and Crobat! That is why you cannot replace Crobat with Swellow in the reasons that Crobat is BL. Its because it cannot do what Crobat does, except for the fact that they can both sweep late game.Eo Ut Mortus said:Survivability. But again, survivability is not an issue if you cannot even deal with the Pokemon.
I think J7r got this right. Crobat wouldn't be broken if the only thing it could do is sweep late game. You are completely missing the point. Swellow is pretty much = in late game sweeping, HOWEVER, Crobat can a) Lure out its counters, b) Check everything, c) Taunt / Whirlwind everything, d) Stay alive throughout the whole game, and e) Did I mention that it checks everything?Eo Ut Mortus said:Well if you don't use their Shaymin bait counters they don't even have to survive until late game; they'll cause it. Also, Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.
You seem to be fabricating the fact that im saying "Crobat counters all of the metagame", when im saying it "Checks most of the metagame". There is a difference.Eo Ut Mortus said:It's forced out again then. And once Crobat is out of play, even for a just a moment, it loses a lot of its ability to check. How many Pokemon are there that Crobat "checks" that does not have a move that can KO/cripple/deal massive damage to a Crobat switching in? Crobat does not fully counter the majority of the metagame, in the same way that say Chansey does to Yanmega.
Shaymin is pretty damn hard to KO as well, but of course it isnt invincable. Its just nearly impossible to KO Shaymin with so many Pokemon it forces out so easily, similar to Crobat but on a much, much, much lesser degree. The fact that the two Co-exist is when it becomes trouble.Eo Ut Mortus said:Shaymin isn't invincible. It's going to have to either recover on the next turn or be worn down by various Rock-attacks. And then what does it accomplish?
It can, to check other offensive teams. However, with less Pokemon to sponge hits and lure out sweepers (like stall), Crobat is 10x easier to take down on an offensive team than a stall team, while retaining every other characteristic, if not more.Eo Ut Mortus said:Why can't an offensive team have a Crobat?
I already quoted this up there, but I didnt address the second part. You can "DEAL" with Swellow, because it dies after 2-3 switch ins. Crobat you cannot simply "Deal" with, for reasons I have stated over and over.Survivability. But again, survivability is not an issue if you cannot even deal with the Pokemon.
But with Crobat, you aren't abusing its presence since it can just Roost off damage and remain alive for the entire match, checking most of UU.....Swellow doesn't have to lure it out. Unless you plan on saving it until the end of the match as well, in which case I've basically neutralized one of your Pokemon, I can still abuse its presence whenever you switch it in.
.......And I did not say that Swellow has to wait until the end of the match to be effective. I said Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.
I just watched a match of yours where you couldnt even touch, let alone KO, shufflebat until it ran out of Roosts, your stall team couldnt even break its sub except for Luxray.What are you talking about? Unless you're just saying it was someone using my team, it wasn't me.
I don't think this is broken, considering there are a variety of Pokemon who can deal more damage to Crobat than it can Roost without setting up.Support the team in various ways...Taunt / Whirlwind everything
Why can't an offensive team have Crobat?HeySup said:But Shaymin is an offense check, not a stall check. Shaymin is walled to hell and back by Chansey and Crobat. The fact that stall has many, many, checks for shaymin is a big reason that Crobat is nearly unstoppable on it.
I thought Crobat checked the metagame? Regardless, Crobat's aptitude at being a good switch-in on Shaymin is not determined on whether or not your team is stall or offensive.It can, to check other offensive teams. However, with less Pokemon to sponge hits and lure out sweepers (like stall), Crobat is 10x easier to take down on an offensive team than a stall team, while retaining every other characteristic, if not more.
b) Check a stupid amount of the metagame
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was making the point myself. I feel that the fact that it is not a counter to these Pokemon in most regard means that it fails to qualify for that aspect of the defense/support char. Yes, Crobat kills Blaziken with Brave Bird, but it can't switch in on its Fire Blast, can it?You seem to be fabricating the fact that im saying "Crobat counters all of the metagame", when im saying it "Checks most of the metagame". There is a difference.
Numerous examples have already been given of Pokemon who are counters, who can kill Crobat. Which brings me to:c) And most importantly, it can actually SURVIVE, as you said before, unlike swellow. You basically gave away the fact that Crobat has a huge advantage over swellow when I asked you why you used Crobat
The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.
On Shaymin:Shaymin is pretty damn hard to KO as well, but of course it isnt invincable. Its just nearly impossible to KO Shaymin with so many Pokemon it forces out so easily, similar to Crobat but on a much, much, much lesser degree. The fact that the two Co-exist is when it becomes trouble.
Everything can lure out its counters. It's just that Crobat does it more efficiently through U-Turn, which is applicable to anything that learns U-Turn. My Mespirit can U-Turn from Chansey and Registeel and Hitmonlee gets a free switch-in.HOWEVER, Crobat can a) Lure out its counters
I already quoted this up there, but I didnt address the second part. You can "DEAL" with Swellow, because it dies after 2-3 switch ins. Crobat you cannot simply "Deal" with, for reasons I have stated over and over.
I have been saying that Swellow = Crobat only in terms of counters and potential to sweep. Nothing more.You cannot still be saying that Swellow = Crobat, when you have basically proven that Crobat has many advantages by answering my question.
I don't know what you mean by that; I meant I'm abusing Regirock's presence.jrrrrrrr said:But with Crobat, you aren't abusing its presence since it can just Roost off damage and remain alive for the entire match, checking most of UU.....
I was merely saying that I did not say Swellow is ineffective until the end of the match. But really, this is pretty irrelevant. I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between Swellow / Crobat in this regard; I just phrased it in a bad way earlier.Yes, Swellow can survive as long as Crobat, IF YOU DONT SEND IT OUT UNTIL ITS COUNTERS ARE DEAD. Crobat can be a bitch to your opponent EVEN IF ITS COUNTERS ARE NOT DEAD. Are you really not getting this? You are saying "Swellow can sweep if you dont use it until the end!". I am saying "Crobat can sweep and it doesnt matter where in the match you use it, in addition to being able to Taunt, Roost, etc without having to Burn itself to be productive"
Just? That was yesterday, and Milotic, Chansey, and Luxray could all break its Substitute. I didn't regard it as walking all over my team considering I won...I just watched a match of yours where you couldnt KO shufflebat until it ran out of Roosts, your stall team couldnt even break its sub except for Luxray.
Speaking of Luxray, I find it pretty funny that you are using it, since the only thing your Luxray set can do is counter Crobat. It loses huge chunks of health to most Physical attackers, even with Intimidate. The fact that you are using Rest Talk Luxray to counter Crobat says quite a bit about Crobat........
I would like to argue that point. Ever heard of a move that Swellow can use? It's called U-turn, 70 BP Bug Move, allows you to switch after attacking? Most of the time, when you bring Swellow in, bring it on a favorable matchup, and U-turn the hell out when the opponent brings their counter in, and bring in your answer to that counter (Blaziken works well). And Swellow can Roost, using that same principle - bring it in on something favorable, Roost on its counter, then U-turn out. Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.Yes, Swellow can survive as long as Crobat, IF YOU DONT SEND IT OUT UNTIL ITS COUNTERS ARE DEAD.
Not really. Simply switching in to do said U-Turn costs Swellow 25%(SR)+6%/12%(Poison/Burn Damage)= 31-37%. So Swellow can really only switch in to U-Turn 3 times if it ever intends to attack. And using Roost itself is dangerous....Swellow has 60/60/50 Defenses. And using Roost takes up a move slot, so you lose U-turn or Quick Attack, leaving you open to priority.Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.
What do you guys think? This is sort of a truce - we observe a metagame without Crobat again, and then make our decisions...Agreeing to this. Ban Crobat again, considering it a test. Then watch the metagame unfold. Then we make our decisions for voting.At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.
It's probably the best thing to do in this situation. I'm not sure, as this happened just before I joined, but wasn't there a suspect ladder for a Metagame without Garchomp? I think we should do the same thing - declare Crobat a suspect, then look at the new "metagame".
What is your point exactly? Your point seems to be that Crobat = Swellow, and that Swellow isnt broken, while im saying otherwise and you seem to be denying it. You have repeated things like this:Well, you're still completely missing my point, which is that the points you think I'm ignoring are not related to the point I am not ignoring, but jrrrrrrr addressed it so whatever. Let me address all your points this time.
And while arguing this point about how Swellow forces you to use Shaymin-bait, you seem to have forgotten Crobat's numerous advantages, especially during early / mid-game, while Swellow is a) practically useless untill its counters are dead, and b) It will only have 1-2 Attacks if it switches in earlier in the game. Saying that they sweep similarly is like saying that Rampardos can sweep like Salamence.Eo Ut Mortus said:Again, the same applies to Swellow and Arcanine.
As we have been over previously, you need to replace "variety" with "select few"Eo Ut Mortus said:I don't think this is broken, considering there are a variety of Pokemon who can deal more damage to Crobat than it can Roost without setting up.
The fact that Crobat doesnt OHKO over half of a Stall team, and the fact that Omastar exists, means you should get spikes up unless you mispredict an exponential amount of times. I never said Crobat kills Spike / SR set up (especially with Omastar around), I said it kills offensive set up Pokemon, such as SD Drapion, CM Missy, CM Espeon, etc.Eo Ut Mortus said:Whirlwind is not effective unless you get up entry hazards.
Prior posts:
How can a stall team set up Spikes? According to you, Crobat kills set-up, while Omastar is Shaymin bait, so it should be impossible for Roserade and Omastar to do anything.
Why can't an offensive team have Crobat?
I thought Crobat checked the metagame? Regardless, Crobat's aptitude at being a good switch-in on Shaymin is not determined on whether or not your team is stall or offensive.
Ummm...okay? I'm not arguing this, nor is it relivant? Countering is not in the definitions of BL.Eo Ut Mortus said:I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was making the point myself. I feel that the fact that it is not a counter to these Pokemon in most regard means that it fails to qualify for that aspect of the defense/support char. Yes, Crobat kills Blaziken with Brave Bird, but it can't switch in on its Fire Blast, can it?
Yes, the same stall oriented Pokemon, or Rock-types have been mentioned. There is still way too few of them, but the fact that they all lose to Shaymin makes them often invalid.Eo Ut Mortus said:Numerous examples have already been given of Pokemon who are counters, who can kill Crobat. Which brings me to:
First of all, Rain Dance teams are completely different, so Kabutops is completely irrelevant.Eo Ut Mortus said:On Shaymin:
Max Atk Adamant Kabutops LO Stone Edge: 62.76% - 74.19%
Max SpA Modest Omastar Ice Beam: 61.58% - 72.73%
So what do you do now? You have to recover or else the next time I get in on your Crobat, I'm killing you on the switch. Shaymin accomplishes nothing and ends up as set up bait for Roserade or even Crobat.
You keep missing my point, that every time Swellow comes in it will lose at least 31% of its HP because of status and SR regardless of U-turn. That makes it almost not worth using. Thats why forcing Swellow out is enough to deal with it, while Crobat can keep coming in.Eo Ut Mortus said:Everything can lure out its counters. It's just that Crobat does it more efficiently through U-Turn, which is applicable to anything that learns U-Turn. My Mespirit can U-Turn from Chansey and Registeel and Hitmonlee gets a free switch-in.
Exactly. This is my main point, you have agreed that Crobat is better in nearly every way (at least survivability-wise), and STILL has the same sweeping capabilities as Swellow.Eo Ut Mortus said:I have been saying that Swellow = Crobat only in terms of counters and potential to sweep. Nothing more.
How is a Pokemon who does not do anything untill late game "not ineffective" until the end of the match?Eo Ut Mortus said:I was merely saying that I did not say Swellow is ineffective until the end of the match. But really, this is pretty irrelevant. I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between Swellow / Crobat in this regard; I just phrased it in a bad way earlier.
This just proves that you either ignored the fact that swellow does not have the stats / resistances to use Roost effectively, or you have ignored the fact that Crobat forces at least 10x more switches than Swellow. You also seem to have forgotten that Swellow loses 31% of its health permanently every time it U-turns, Roost simply does not work with Swellow as it does with Crobat.I would like to argue that point. Ever heard of a move that Swellow can use? It's called U-turn, 70 BP Bug Move, allows you to switch after attacking? Most of the time, when you bring Swellow in, bring it on a favorable matchup, and U-turn the hell out when the opponent brings their counter in, and bring in your answer to that counter (Blaziken works well). And Swellow can Roost, using that same principle - bring it in on something favorable, Roost on its counter, then U-turn out. Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.
Yes, the same stall oriented Pokemon, or Rock-types have been mentioned. There is still way too few of them, but the fact that they all lose to Shaymin makes them often invalid.
How are they completely different? They're actually a form of an offensive team. Also, Kabutops doesn't have to be used in conjunction with rain, although I acknowledge that rain is responsible for a lot of its effectiveness.First of all, Rain Dance teams are completely different, so Kabutops is completely irrelevant.
However, Omastar is a good Pokemon to break the combo, but unfortunately it will often still lose to Shaymin, and without another WALL, Shaymin can still cause havoc. This is why its almost impossible to break Crobat + Stall.
MiloticAs we have been over previously, you need to replace "variety" with "select few"
The defensive characteristic:Ummm...okay? I'm not arguing this, nor is it relivant? Countering is not in the definitions of BL.
You never Crobat kills Spikes or SR set up, but it does because it knows Taunt. And I would personally be more inclined to Taunt Omastar than an Espeon of all things.The fact that Crobat doesnt OHKO over half of a Stall team, and the fact that Omastar exists, means you should get spikes up unless you mispredict an exponential amount of times. I never said Crobat kills Spike / SR set up (especially with Omastar around), I said it kills offensive set up Pokemon, such as SD Drapion, CM Missy, CM Espeon, etc.
I didn't even mention Swellow in that regard, I said Mespirit.You keep missing my point, that every time Swellow comes in it will lose at least 31% of its HP because of status and SR regardless of U-turn. That makes it almost not worth using. Thats why forcing Swellow out is enough to deal with it, while Crobat can keep coming in.
Almost anything can be stopped by something from stall....and the ones it doesnt are easily stopped by something else from stall.
Just about all of the Pokemon Crobat checks have something that they can do to damage Crobat. Fighting-types have Stone Edge. Blaziken has Fire Blast. Shaymin has Psychic. Even Umbreon deals somewhat decent damage to Crobat with Payback. It's not only the checks that give Crobat opportunities to Roost, it's how you play them, and if you play them one-dimensionally, of course you're going to get burned.The fact that there are counters is completely invalid. The Pokemon Crobat checks severely outwieghs the Pokemon it cannot, just because Crobat is forced out does NOT mean its gone from the battle.
The checks and survivability go hand in hand, you see, because the extra turns it gets from forcing said offensive sweepers out = free Roosts. The fact that Crobat checks a huge portion of the metagame doesnt make it broken, its the fact that it almost permanently does, because of its ridiculous survivability is one of the main arguments for the support characteristic as it makes Stall sweep so much easier.
Roosting is incredibly easy still, Pokemon such as Missy are FORCED out. And since when is prediction a valid argument? Its not.Crobat isn't always going to get free roosts. Play predictably and you'll be punished. Roost every time Crobat is in on an offensive sweeper that it can kill and you're eventually going to get a Fire Blast or Psychic in your face. Roosting isn't always risk free, BBing a counter means you'll be forced out before you can Roost. The player with better prediction wins, not the player with Crobat.
Which is why Stall does not have the same problems with Crobat as offense. Not to mention, stall can break after wall breakers hit repeatedly hard, but Crobat simply stops them from doing this effeciently at all and makes it near impossible for even stall-breakers to break stall.Almost anything can be stopped by something from stall.
Although it appears to be a trolling attempt, I'll respond to the first paragraph quickly. Shaymin, IMO, should also be nominated for reasons very similar to Crobat. This however, is another topic.I'm not going to try and jump back into this Crobat debate, but after reading jrrrrrrr and HeYsUp's arguments, I'm convinced. You're right guys, Shaymin truly is deserving to be a Suspect.
Can you define what you mean by "checking" the metagame? Do you mean as a revenge-killer? Do you mean it can switch in on the right moves and force it out? "Checking" isn't as clearly defined as "countering" is.
If Crobat forces you to carry Pokemon that gives Shaymin free switch-ins, allowing it to sweep, I would sooner ban Shaymin than Crobat. Crobat helps you exploit Suspects, but once those Suspects are gone there's nothing to exploit.
Stall-breakers such as Blaziken are not the only ways to get through stall.Which is why Stall does not have the same problems with Crobat as offense. Not to mention, stall can break after wall breakers hit repeatedly hard, but Crobat simply stops them from doing this effeciently at all and makes it near impossible for even stall-breakers to break stall.
A lot of these Pokemon have something to hit Crobat with. In fact, I'm not sure there's anything that can't. It doesn't matter if Crobat Roosts or not, it will get worn down eventually. I believe Shaymin's Psychic does ~84% on Crobat. Even if Crobat Roosts, Psychic will KO it the next time it switches in, even if Stealth Rock is not up.As I said before, nothing is IMPOSSIBLE to do, but Crobat is just exceptionally hard to take down when a) alot of these Pokemon dont have anything to hit Crobat with, b) there are many, many, many Pokemon Crobat can simply Roost Stall against, and c) Crobat can just easily Brave Bird if these Pokemon attack it (not to mention, the fighting types will not KO with Stone Edge after Roost, so thats a moot point)..
I agree. I have listed offensive Pokemon that Crobat does not check, or does a shoddy job of checking.Checks: Something that keeps a Pokemon from sweeping, and forces them out, but cannot reliably switch-in, if at all. For example, Crobat checks Espeon.
That's so specific. How many people use a team of Shaymin, Chansey, Drapion, Omastar, Crobat, (Spiritomb?) anyway? Is Crobat still broken on another version of a stall team?Shaymin is just an example for one of the arguments. The argument is basically Crobat + Stall = Close to being broken, if not broken on its own. Stall meaning a team made of something like Shaymin, Chansey, Drapion, Omastar and etc. Shaymin is only a small part of the reason that Crobat is BL material. You are forgetting the like 4-5 reasons, other than the "Broken with stall in general" argument.