Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Moth To A Flame

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Volcarona!

Volcarona is one of the strongest win conditions in the history of modern Overused, rising to prominence in its debut generation of BW and remaining one of the better set-up options across the last thireteen years. While losing Hidden Power and gaining Heavy-Duty Boots reshaped Volcarona last generation, Terastallization had perhaps the biggest impact on its presence ever this generation. After a controversial quickban earlier this generation, Volcarona was reintroduced to our flagship metagame with hopes that it would stay afloat this time around. However, the infamous Quiver Dancer, frequently dubbed the match-up Moth, is once again a controversial presence in the metagame.

With Quiver Dance, free turns can allow for Volcarona to become quite powerful. While certain strategies like timely priority or Unaware can dwarf the potential Volcarona sweep that comes after boosting, other forms of defensive counterplay become more circumstantial than reliable in the current landscape. With access to Terastallization, it is possible for Volcarona to morph it's offensive presence and defensive presence, which can prove deadly for the opponent if they have the right type and timing. Of course, there is an enormous opportunity cost to doing this and there is still some counterplay to each individual Volcarona variant, including a bit of overlap between the sets.

In terms of Volcarona sets in the metagame, it is always using Quiver Dance and a Fire STAB, which is often Fiery Dance and occasionally Fire Blast for extra power. Other non-attacking moves like Morning Sun or Substitute can permit certain beneficial lines like repeatedly tanking Fairy or Ice types thanks to Morning Sun or avoiding status moves like Toxic behind a Substitute. Bug Buzz is a solid option as a second attack on Volcarona, gaining popularity recently to cover Ogerpon-Wellspring and Ting Lu while giving a neutral option into Dragon and Water types to compliment the Fire STAB. Giga Drain is used sporadically, too, in order to further deter Water types like Primarina and Dondozo while also hitting Garganacl.

However, the most dynamic coverage option for Volcarona is Tera Blast, frequently being used alongside the Ground or Dragon type. This element of Volcarona allows for it to handpick its own counterplay a lot of the time. Previously the OU tiering council opened a discussion on Tera Blast and Volcarona here for those curious. Here is an excerpt from the OP on the topic that is still relevant to this discussion:

Being able to handpick your own counterplay is not conducive towards a balanced and competitive metagame typically. While modern counterplay has assumed a slightly different definition and application thanks to potential Tera transactions, there are still considerations for the arguably overbearing impact Volcarona can have both in the builder and during games when it is used well. Volcarona in particular is able to have this presence while not giving off as much indication about its potential set or Tera at team preview as other top threats thanks to the depth of possibilities.

There are numerous downsides to Volcarona though. For example, it is reliant on Terastallization a lot of the time to reach its potential, which means that some games it could offer diminishing returns and on the whole it is essentially a high maintenance Pokemon in a metagame where players can already be stretched thin. In addition, there are a handful of universal stops to Volcarona. Specially Defensive Skeledirge, Calm Mind Blissey, and Clodsire tend to be safe into most Volcarona variants while other recent trends like Brave Bird Moltres and Choice Band Extreme Speed Dragonite also do well. The first group oftentimes fits onto defensive and balanced teams, but offensive teams often are able to allocate a Tera type on the right Pokemon to keep Volcarona in check if they cannot revenge kill it or stop it up-front, too. This is not the most reliable practice as the it hinges on what Volcarona's Tera status and potentially preserving numerous Pokemon though, leading Volcarona to cause a strain on teambuilding and gameplay alike.

Overall, Volcarona is one of the best win conditions in the metagame, but it is also higher maintenance than most others, oftentimes being referred to as a Tera hog. It lacks too distinguished a defensive presence, being mainly able to check stray Fairy and Ice attacks without covering a ton of Pokemon reliably. However, it is a dynamic offensive presence with the potential to snowball out of control with the right circumstances. Defensive stalwarts like Skeledirge, Clodsire, and Blissey can oftentimes stop Volcarona in its tracks, but not too many other Pokemon that fit onto different atchetypes find themselves reliable into Volcarona's potential arsenal. This suspect will b used to determine if Volcarona is too much for the metagame or if the playerbase determines it to be balanced in SV OU!

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUWW. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUWW Finch.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Volcarona, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will be lasting until Friday, April 26th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Volcarona is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Volcarona vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

Locking for 24h so people can collect their thoughts!

 

[Finchinator]

For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUWW.

 

[ausma]

While this thread is locked, I would like to take a second to say that this thread will be more strictly moderated than usual given how suspect threads lately have been really hectic. Please treat each other and their opinions with respect as we discuss the next step for SV OU and as the suspect unfolds.

 

[Finchinator]

Open, hf

 

[Shaymin Sky]

this is the quietest opening to a OU suspect test thread i've ever seen lmao

Anyways ban volc this guy is annoying as shit and fiery dance is the trolliest move ever created. It exist to be RNG mu fish cheese mon but in a meta like gen 9 that already has a wide threat list, and tera giving volc more options its just too stupid to deal with. there is no way to reliably beat volcs 200 sets unless u have blissey or clod who are troll to use besides hard stall. "We need volcarona for its defensive utility vs kyurem" volc is a kyurem check, the bulky volc sets take 90 to specs draco u cannot seriously think volc is a counter lol look up the definitions plz. The only defensive utility volc has is with flame body which is also coincedentally BS rng nonsense, there is no end to this mons arsenal of cheese and don't even get me started on fiery dance 50% boost. When even STORM ZONE says an offensive mon is cheesy and gets on his nerves I mean cmon LMFAOOOO and thats like #1 offense apologist. Like idt u guys understand how cringe an offense mon has to be to make sz mad lmfao like this only happened with pheremosa in 8 looooooool. This mon is not staying in the tier I fear, and if it is then they need to start payin finch ngl. I don't believe the claims that volcarona has defensive value for the tier, given it's at most vs Iron Valiant who can run SD liquidation anyways. The main defensive value Volcarona has is inherently RNG and I don't even think mons like Rilla are too much for the tier without Volcarona, there will always be plenty of options vs grass spam especially non RNG ones!! Worst thing is you cant even figure out the set based on team comp, or info of sets on other mons, let alone figuring out its tera lmaooo. Fishing for burns, Fishing for autowin MU's, Fishing for 50% boost, this mon is genuinely not fun nor competitive nor balanced IMO.

if u couldnt tell im getting reqs and voting ban, altho I have a suspicion that it will not get banned but ima do what I can ig

last thing but to ALL of u insane people who flamed council for qb volc in DLC 1, GENUINELY you guys should never touch a tiering position. to sit there and say "guys dlc1 gave more answers we should try it out" BRO. How long is it gonna take, for people to not just realize but LEARN. Volcarona in gen 9 is not a pokemon that 'can just have answers', u either run blissey or clod or risk a loss to 1-3 sets. thats it. there is no 'oh do this combination' lmfao its fantasy land some of yall live in i swear. like whatever the fuck mons were in dlc1 clearly CLEARLY had no fucking effect on volcarona because we in DLC2 and this guy STILL.DOES.THE.SAME.THINGGGGGGGGGGGGG.AND WINS EASILY IF UR NOT TROLLING LOLLL. Literally like all of yall saying qb in dlc1 wasn't warranted need to issue an apology cus this 'opinion' (even calling it an opinion is giving it a bit too much credit lmao) is just absurd and not based on reality or historical evidence.

 

[serotine]

Easy echo above, Volcarona is just unbelievably hard to account for in the team builder. You are accounting for damn near 14 viable sets: a combination of coverage and Tera makes even the most reliable checks second guess themselves because of "is it bug buzz? tera dragon? psychic? is it running bulky? is it fast?" What would before, assessing a team and gathering some conclusions to execute, is now a geniune slot machine where you often gotta hope.

I really can't think of a more exhausting pokemon. Exhausting in how much of a mental stack it places with little effort, and espeically in how throurghly you need to play to not give it an oppurtunity. Hell, I think oppurtunity is a bit loaded because Volcarona makes progress just by being in a team, not even in the field. It's rarely earned, and feels like twisting an arm behind someones back rather than supporting and executing a win con successfully. I'm not even mentioning Flame Body or Firey Dance, which are proven time and again to be some of the greatest momentum builders in the game.

With Fire and Bolt, I feel the argument for Volcarona being the only thing stopping Grassy spam is hard to support. There are significantly more defensive options compared to DLC1, and less reason to support these ultra-violitile pokemon that only serve to exaggerate an already power-crept, suffocated meta. Moltres is getting a lot of support and love as of late, and helps address albeit not completely the defensive utility Volcarona offered. Volcarona constricts a meta by its sheer set diversity, and I don't think that is lessened by removing other, potentionally equally egregious pokemon. It will always pick and choose its counters with a success well and above its peers, and when you add Flame Body and Firey Dance that can outright deny counters and checks with luck?

Demon, get it out I want more heatah fajita shit that doesn't have to do calculus to check a fucking bug

 

[CoralReaper707]

What do you mean Volcarona is broken? It's a perfectly fine mixed attacker-
JUST KIDDING! BAN. Volcarona might not be super broken compared to a lot of other maniacs that used to call this tier home (I'm looking at you, Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao), but it's a very unhealthy tera abuser. It is an actual pain to fight against considering it has like a million different sets. The RNG of flame body and fiery dance is easily the trolly-est it has ever been. Combine all of that with the fact it can terastalize into a stab type or defensive type and sweep your team, or terastalize into a different offensive type and sweep your team, you've got a nasty Pokemon. All of this is assuming Volcarona is running an actually good set and not...whatever the hell this is:

The funny

(Volcarona) @ Choice Band
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
- Flare Blitz

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

plot twist of the century: i actually don't have strong feelings towards one position or the other. on the one hand, volc is a dumb matchup fish. on the other hand, this entire gen is so full of matchup fishes it's like a fucking matchup aquarium up in here, and i don't see much chance of the community rallying behind many of the actions that would be necessary to stop the tier from being so matchup-fishy, so i just kinda have to accept that for the time being. and there's a decent amount of things in the tier that volc doesn't autowin against. it can't beat cm blissey without running tera ghost and that makes it lose to clod, so it has a terrible matchup against stall. any set not running tera ground/water gets rolled over by gouging fire, skeledirge, and the occasional ceruledge. any set that is running tera ground/water gets rolled over by dragonite and waterpon. any set that runs tera dragon to try and be clever and beat all of those at once loses to tera fairy something-or-other. gambit can easily cheat volc out of a sweep with its dumb sucker punch 50/50s. rillaboom beats tera ground sets with grassy glide. and this is just the matchups i can think of off the top of my head that are difficult for volc—there's a bunch of other stuff too, as outlined in the op. it's capable of flipping all these matchups individually by running some tera type or other, or running some niche thing it never actually runs like substitute or wisp, or getting a flame body proc, but none of those can reliably beat all or even most of its common losing matchups at once. volc's biggest strength is its biggest weakness—it can pick and choose its counterplay, but it has to pick and choose its counterplay. even so, i'm slightly leaning towards ban, partially because it's a big stupid matchup-fishing wincon in a meta full of them and getting rid of it would at least be a step towards what i would consider a more favorable meta, partially because it is capable of picking and choosing (or rnging through) most to all of its counterplay, and partially because something about the current meta needs to change. this opinion is definitely subject to change, though, so i'm not going to commit to a side just yet

 

[Earthflax]

"If I were to have a poor matchup, it would definitely cause me trouble."

"So you'd lose?"

People have been complaining about Volcarona for the same reason ever since it was released; it's called Matchup Moth for a reason. In gens 5-7 it was held back by a weakness to Rocks, and in SS it couldn't gain random type coverage to get past its counterplay, but in SV neither of these things are true thanks to Tera Blast and Heavy Duty Boots. This only amplifies the already existing problems with Volc and it really puts it over the edge. It's not like a Volc set which is not optimal for the matchup it faces is dead weight either; typically it will still be a huge threat regardless of if its coverage is redundant or its spread doesn't win off preview. This makes Volcarona a very unique type of matchup fish in that if it gets a good matchup, it wins, while if it gets a bad matchup, it is rarely a net negative.

Frankly, I don't believe that Volcarona restricts teambuilding more than Kingambit or Ogerpon-W, even given the amount of sets it can run; it is ridiculous and objectively wrong to say that its specific counters are the same across all sets but the way you navigate counterplay is pretty similar. What I believe makes Volc really broken is how it restricts gameplay a lot due to its unpredictability; think of it like Schrodinger's cat if instead of a cat it was a bloodthirsty demon moth which will tear you to bits, except before Schrodinger opens the box there are about 10 of them in the box all at the same time, each ready to kill you with their varied coverage or spreads. And yet even if you guess right before you open the metaphorical box, it is still very likely that this demon moth will do huge damage.

I honestly laugh when I see any talk about its defensive capabilities, because it really doesn't have much at all. It isn't reliable vs anything really and what little defensive maneuvering that is done with it is almost completely based off of the 30% Flame Body chance. This is not something which is inherently broken about it but just increases the sense of frustration around the mon itself which I agree with and believe is understandable. And when it boils down to it defensive usage is never, and in this case, certainly not, an argument to keep it in the tier.

I'm not sure if I want to get reqs because I'm really busy these next two weeks but I am definitely pro-Ban and think that if this moth goes it could be the first step towards a more stable meta.

 

[GummyRowlets]

When analysing Volcarona, it isn't as obviously broken as something like Flutter Mane, Palafin, or even Bax. It does have to be tera dependent quite often and pokemon such as gouing fire, skeledirge, and the stall mons of blissey and clod can check it before tera, key word, TERA. This mon isn't broken because of it's outright power, it broken because of it unpredictability. Volcarona is most prominent showcase of the power tera. It doesn't just have one good set, two, three, or even four, it has viable sets to the dozens with them all being great in their own way. Dragon destorys every dragon in the tier, bug is used for even harder hitting bug buzzes, ground is used to say f you to any thought of a counter. Although you can account for most teras, this heavily, and I mean heavily makes team building unhealthy. You are limited in the creativity of what of you can do, because you need to account for every dam tera this pokemon can run. Even other mons aren't nearly as unpredictable with tera with such examples including Moon and even kambit that often run predictable teras with moon using flying and kambit liking to stick with dark, fairy, or flying. They run a tera you can account for adjust as is. Volcs isn't the same and makes the team building process so unhealthy and so much less free than it could be. This mon at it's core, is just uncompetitive within the tier with it's variety of sets, unpredictability, and restrictions on team building, and match up fishiness. For these reasons, I don't see any benefit the OU tier hold allowing this moth to remain

TLDR: Volcs is uncompetitive, I will be voting ban on it when I get Reqs

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Banning Volc would be the complete wrong direction for this tier and a huge step back. Volcarona's ability to resist Moonblast and threaten steels such as gambit and Ghold, as well as threaten to burn physical attackers with flame body, and be an offensive wincon, all in one slot, is one that's invaluable in this hectic iteration of OU. Half the people who want bans in this tier are complaining about the "pressure in the builder" and how "it's so hard to fit everything you need in 6 slots" and I ask why you want to remove a Pokémon that offers valuable role compression? I also am curious why the folks who want to remove Volc feel that Gholdengo and Kingambit need a buff. Threatening a burn on Gambit is amazing, fucking it up with fire stab is amazing, threatening a double on the Ghold switch on an expected spin/defog is amazing, being able to shut down momentum grabs with u turn or knock spam using flame body is amazing, and you want to take all that away? All because a Pokémon that is a dead slot in like half the matches it's in has a lot of good Tera types to choose from and sometimes actually has the right one to be really good in a match? It can feel like bullshit when Volc has the perfect Tera type vs you but this is not even close to a Volc exclusive experience or one that happens remotely reliably. I understand it is irritating when the stars align and Volc sweeps your team but between a terrible defense stat, exploitable ground and spikes susceptability and natural coverage that almost always requires committing Tera to actually be good Volc is a super high investment Mon and its results often fall flat; banning it because that is sometimes not the case just doesn't make any sense.

Volc is often called "the matchup moth" and sometimes it feels like people's pro-ban reasoning is just because of this nickname, it can't be forgotten that being a "matchup fish" is essentially another way of saying a Pokémon is Unreliable. Volc doesn't match well into most balance teams, any stall team, it really only can have a good matchup vs offense, and not even every offense team. Are we seriously banning Pokémon because there are sometimes matchups where they can win easily? Any Pokémon with priority moves, resists Fire and Bug, or has unaware can easily stop Volc in its tracks, it's not even hard to chip down. Sure Volc can Terastalize to overcome traditional counterplay, but literally every Pokémon can do this and there is no reason to act as if this is more of an issue if done by Volc than any other Pokémon - not everything has Quiver Dance but how is Dragon Dance or even Swords Dance remotely different in this dynamic? Pokémon like Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Pult, etc can all overcome their checks with Tera and go on to sweep and Roaring Moon is the only one that's at all contentious (and even so not really among tiering leadership.) Welcome to Gen 9

there's also the point of grassy terrain, if we want a repeat of DLC1 where grassy terrain teams dominate, which I guess not everyone agrees is a bad or negative thing, then I guess we can remove the "Matchup Moth" so that there are no consequences to using the Momentum Monkey. Other checks to Rillaboom exist but none can pressure it the same as Volcarona as hard switching Volcarona in and getting a free QD. Grassy Terrain dominated tournaments throughout DLC1 and enabled several unsavory techs such as Unburden sweepers, absurdly fat bulky sweepers, etc, and I will freely admit that that's not necessarily a PROBLEM outright, but in a case of removing a Pokémon from the tier that adds a lot of positive things we have to consider what version of this tier we'd rather play. This is another reason Volcarona must be preserved as what will this tier looks like when Kyurem loses its best check? The common refrain from tiering leaders has been "consequences of tiering action don't matter, just pretend they don't exist when you vote and it will sort itself out" and yet we for 2 releases seen these dynamics NOT sort themselves out. Banning Volc could lead to a Kyurem ban, leading to a slew of other bans, leading eventually to another meta where Zapdos Static, Ting Lu Spike Stack, and FuturePort spam are dominant and there becomes little to no reason to not use this core since it can't be broken. This isn't "just speculation" because we literally have already played 2 Volcless metas that were literally just this. Again, I am aware we are told not to consider the ripple effect of tiering action, but we have watched not considering the fallout create unsatisfying metas on multiple occasions so I don't think this particular piece of tiering policy should be treated as gospel

we are seeing paradoxical "the enemy is both strong and weak" logic to describe Volc, somehow its defensive presence is both a reason to ban it, but also "not that good so it's not important enough to keep in the tier?" So which is it? Why are we banning an offensive Pokémon with an overall bad defensive presence that is easily exploitable, and using the logic "it's not good so it's not worth saving?" Last I checked we only ban things that are broken? Although another common refrain is "I don't think it's super broken but I just want the tier to change so let's ban it" like ok maybe we should draw from a hat to decide bans? Or use a dart board? This is terrible logic and made up a good portion of the pro ban arguments made about Gouging Fire as well, which ultimately was not banned for not being broken (yet it's more versatile, bulkier, and more offensively threatening than Volcarona - curious!)

all of y'all being doomers "nothing ever gets banned there is no way Volc will get 60%" are spouting complete nonsense, the rhetoric around Volc right now is nothing like it was around Kyurem or late Gouging Fire, Volc is not a particularly polarizing Mon, I meet far more people who want a ban than who have any desire to see it stay, and the hardest ratios I get on any platform for discussing Mons are me defending Volcarona, public opinion is not in favor of this Mon at all, if we few but mighty people who understand the important role Volc plays don't work overtime to help people see the light (or if playtesting changes nobody's mind) then we are likely to enter another unstable state like the one that the first removal of Volc caused. No action would be best here without a doubt.

 

[Drifting]

In this metagame, we seem to be tolerant of certain broken threats if they provide adequate value to the metagame with their presence. This is a pretty old tradition on Smogon, with Generation 2 Snorlax for example being not only the most used Pokemon in OU, but in Ubers as well. Despite being the definition of centralization though, the metagame would undeniably be worse without it, as its power, sturdiness and versatility let it soft check many things while filling what would otherwise be serious gaps in potential team structures. Similarly, in Generation 5 we've seen hoops jumped through to preserve Excadrill, because the value of a splashable spinner (the alternative being Donphan) and its ability to break balance cores is so useful.

We see this phenomenon in Generation 9. Waterpon is a clearly broken Pokemon imo, but it has heavily defined counterplay, and provides value to the metagame by keeping uninteractive playstyles like Alomomola and Gliscor in check, while also providing a solid answer to the Elephants. Zamazenta is pretty broken, but by existing in the meta it keeps the littany of volatile physical set-up sweepers honest, and again has clear counterplay. Even Kingambit, despite being harder to prep for than the others thanks to sets like Tera Ghost/Fire, Air Balloon and Lum Berry, provides a lot of value to the metagame as a reliable revenge killer who punishes cheesy styles like Stall and Weather HO. These guys are our GSC Snorlax.

Volcarona is pretty broken. Full stop. It's pretty obvious to me at least and clearly many others in this thread, and broken in a very obnoxious way where it can snowball out of control in an instant. Between Tera Ground to beat stuff like Skeledirge. sub to block Toxic, Tera Dragon, Fairy and Water, the new Swarm Tera Bug set, Giga Drain for "answers" like Primarina and even some more niche ideas like Grassy Seed with Tusk+Hatterene support on Rillaboom teams, there really is a Volcarona for anything not literally named Unaware Clodsire (who sucks on anything that isnt hard stall). People call this thing matchup moth for a reason, sometimes there is almost literally nothing you can do.

We have to ask ourselves though, what value does Volcarona give to the metagame? The answer in my opinion, is that it provides a counter to Kyurem and Valiant/Enamorus on Offense. This falls apart though, when you remember how many Kyurem are running Rock Slide for this specific situation, basically making trying to check it with Volcarona another matchup check and gambling moment, and the fact that offense can handle the fast fairies of the tier a lot better with Pokemon like Cinderace and Gholdengo as always, but also new ideas introduced since Volcarona's first ban like Tinkaton, Primarina, Thunderclap and even simple stuff like Tera Waterpon. Balance is fine into both of these threats of course between stuff like Glowking, SpDef Garg and Clef, and Moltres.

The only conclusion from this, is that Volcarona's alleged value in answering Kyurem and Fairies on offense is (at least for Kyurem) dubious at best, especially for a team archetype that should be able to outspeed and threaten Kyurem regardless of Volcarona's presence, and for the Fairies it is far from being unique in checking them on offense. This to me, just leaves Volcarona's status as being a Build-A-Bear matchup based, cheesy, hypervolatile set-up sweeper that doesnt provide any unique value to the metagame by existing, similar to a Roaring Moon if Roaring Moon had a dozen sets to beat most of its counters.

For these reasons, I believe it is best for the metagame for Volcarona to receive a BAN.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Banning Volc would be the complete wrong direction for this tier and a huge step back. Volcarona's ability to resist Moonblast and threaten steels such as gambit and Ghold, as well as threaten to burn physical attackers with flame body, and be an offensive wincon, all in one slot, is one that's invaluable in this hectic iteration of OU. Half the people who want bans in this tier are complaining about the "pressure in the builder" and how "it's so hard to fit everything you need in 6 slots" and I ask why you want to remove a Pokémon that offers valuable role compression? I also am curious why the folks who want to remove Volc feel that Gholdengo and Kingambit need a buff. Threatening a burn on Gambit is amazing, fucking it up with fire stab is amazing, threatening a double on the Ghold switch on an expected spin/defog is amazing, being able to shut down momentum grabs with u turn or knock spam using flame body is amazing, and you want to take all that away? All because a Pokémon that is a dead slot in like half the matches it's in has a lot of good Tera types to choose from and sometimes actually has the right one to be really good in a match? It can feel like bullshit when Volc has the perfect Tera type vs you but this is not even close to a Volc exclusive experience or one that happens remotely reliably. I understand it is irritating when the stars align and Volc sweeps your team but between a terrible defense stat, exploitable ground and spikes susceptability and natural coverage that almost always requires committing Tera to actually be good Volc is a super high investment Mon and its results often fall flat; banning it because that is sometimes not the case just doesn't make any sense.

Volc is often called "the matchup moth" and sometimes it feels like people's pro-ban reasoning is just because of this nickname, it can't be forgotten that being a "matchup fish" is essentially another way of saying a Pokémon is Unreliable. Volc doesn't match well into most balance teams, any stall team, it really only can have a good matchup vs offense, and not even every offense team. Are we seriously banning Pokémon because there are sometimes matchups where they can win easily? Any Pokémon with priority moves, resists Fire and Bug, or has unaware can easily stop Volc in its tracks, it's not even hard to chip down. Sure Volc can Terastalize to overcome traditional counterplay, but literally every Pokémon can do this and there is no reason to act as if this is more of an issue if done by Volc than any other Pokémon - not everything has Quiver Dance but how is Dragon Dance or even Swords Dance remotely different in this dynamic? Pokémon like Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Pult, etc can all overcome their checks with Tera and go on to sweep and Roaring Moon is the only one that's at all contentious (and even so not really among tiering leadership.) Welcome to Gen 9

there's also the point of grassy terrain, if we want a repeat of DLC1 where grassy terrain teams dominate, which I guess not everyone agrees is a bad or negative thing, then I guess we can remove the "Matchup Moth" so that there are no consequences to using the Momentum Monkey. Other checks to Rillaboom exist but none can pressure it the same as Volcarona as hard switching Volcarona in and getting a free QD. Grassy Terrain dominated tournaments throughout DLC1 and enabled several unsavory techs such as Unburden sweepers, absurdly fat bulky sweepers, etc, and I will freely admit that that's not necessarily a PROBLEM outright, but in a case of removing a Pokémon from the tier that adds a lot of positive things we have to consider what version of this tier we'd rather play. This is another reason Volcarona must be preserved as what will this tier looks like when Kyurem loses its best check? The common refrain from tiering leaders has been "consequences of tiering action don't matter, just pretend they don't exist when you vote and it will sort itself out" and yet we for 2 releases seen these dynamics NOT sort themselves out. Banning Volc could lead to a Kyurem ban, leading to a slew of other bans, leading eventually to another meta where Zapdos Static, Ting Lu Spike Stack, and FuturePort spam are dominant and there becomes little to no reason to not use this core since it can't be broken. This isn't "just speculation" because we literally have already played 2 Volcless metas that were literally just this. Again, I am aware we are told not to consider the ripple effect of tiering action, but we have watched not considering the fallout create unsatisfying metas on multiple occasions so I don't think this particular piece of tiering policy should be treated as gospel

we are seeing the paradoxical "the enemy is both strong and weak" logic used by fascist regimes to describe Volc, somehow its defensive presence is both a reason to ban it, but also "not that good so it's not important enough to keep in the tier?" So which is it? Why are we banning an offensive Pokémon with an overall bad defensive presence that is easily exploitable, and using the logic "it's not good so it's not worth saving?" Last I checked we only ban things that are broken? Although another common refrain is "I don't think it's super broken but I just want the tier to change so let's ban it" like ok maybe we should draw from a hat to decide bans? Or use a dart board? This is terrible logic and made up a good portion of the pro ban arguments made about Gouging Fire as well, which ultimately was not banned for not being broken (yet it's more versatile, bulkier, and more offensively threatening than Volcarona - curious!)

all of y'all being doomers "nothing ever gets banned there is no way Volc will get 60%" are spouting complete nonsense, the rhetoric around Volc right now is nothing like it was around Kyurem or late Gouging Fire, Volc is not a particularly polarizing Mon, I meet far more people who want a ban than who have any desire to see it stay, and the hardest ratios I get on any platform for discussing Mons are me defending Volcarona, public opinion is not in favor of this Mon at all, if we few but mighty people who understand the important role Volc plays don't work overtime to help people see the light (or if playtesting changes nobody's mind) then we are likely to enter another unstable state like the one that the first removal of Volc caused. No action would be best here without a doubt.

'we are seeing the paradoxical "the enemy is both strong and weak" logic used by fascist regimes to describe Volc'

ok lil bro

since its obligatory rules for no 1 liners, I'll tackle the easiest point. "Volcarona gives role good compression for the user in a tier with lots of threats" to a degree it can but its not bulky enough to be reliable used long term for the defensive use cases you're talking about, especially since volcarona requires good health to be used for sweeping which lets be real is the reason its on teams...its a sweeper. Even the main defensive use cases are pretty uncompetitive with flame body. For example rilla either knocks volc and gets sr to pressure it or it gets knock and gets burned and its really not worth to do so, since most volc teams have good hazard control or are too fast paced to get up hazards. Also the teambuilding pressure volcarona gives far exceeds the benefits of using it on your own team. You can use Volcarona but that still doesnt eliminate the question: which 1-3 volcs do I choose to lose to (since volc doesnt beat volc lol). Using volc does not eliminate the issue volc has of RNG based auto wins / mu autowins, so ur argument that itd needed to stabilize the tier makes no sense. Even then the mons u listed are still annoying and the tier is very unstable even with Volcarona so why not ban the mon anyways. Whatever problem that comes after a volc ban, we manage that next lol like thats how tiering has always been??? Even if we assume volc helps building, we need to limit the amount of offensive threats to stabilize the tier, which means not keeping broken mons that 'stabilize the tier' by virtue of being broken and beating most of the game in a uncompetitive/unbalanced way. aka volcarona and friends

I could say more but really I just thought that line was funny and respectfully I dont care about the rest since that line is just so fucking troll LMAO

 

[ausma]

we are seeing the paradoxical "the enemy is both strong and weak" logic used by fascist regimes to describe Volc

Please do not make comparisons to fascism (or any kind of political powers for that matter) in this thread, thanks.

 

[Ctann]

Volcarona is the face of MUF (Matchup Fish) in OU. It’s getting a lot of the misdirected hate due to its diverse number of sets.

simply: Volcarona has 4+ viable Tera sets which increases its variability in MUs. Other contentious pokemon like roaring moon arguably have less viable set variation, and people put up with them, because you can beat them with repeatable patterns, that are a little more obvious and simple in nature.

it’s very obvious just how volatile and mediocre Volcarona actually is, when it’s reality is compared to the perception its performance and popularity. Similar to what we saw with zamazenta during its suspect, the usage isn’t supporting the perceived OPness. People are using it for its defensive profile, with offensive upside when it’s MU is good.

this discussion I will share how Volcarona can be beaten with repeatable patterns, albeit it takes a little exploration and they’re not as obvious as “use a balloon steel”.

the reality is it can’t be considered broken when looked at fairly, that’s, how it performs on a consistent basis. Using Tera to bypass checks is a high commitment play, and unlike other Tera users, Volcarona isn’t usually getting a “better” type to do it all over again, nor does it have the raw power that other Tera threats have to switch out and do it all over again.

there is very simple structured counterplay to every single set. We all wish this was the case for actual MUF - basically the whole offensive meta is MUF - that are overpowered.

you also have an expectation to use support if you’re running traditional Volcarona weak Pokémon’s. For example if you have a valiant, meowscarada, Weavile, Rillaboom or Kyurem or whatever, or multiples of them, then your “Volcarona response” strategy should be more well thought out than someone who doesn’t.

a very simple example is having the backup option of Tera fire on a Rillaboom, meowscarada or whatever.

For those who complain due to having a Volcarona weak-team:

• Valiant can force damage on a Volcarona, which can safely be revenged or forced out by partners. Volcarona also needs to KO valiant in order not to get encored on the next turn.
• Kyurem has so many options. If the rest of your team is having difficulty and you’re running HDB 4A Kyurem, consider running a rock or scale shot move to force damage on the volc.
• Rillaboom may not have any tool to reliably beat Volcarona, so pair it with Pokémon’s that can, primarina is a popular partner that can lose to grassy terrain giga grain, but there’s nothing wrong with running a backup like Moltres
• Meowscarada and Weavile are easily bundled up with glowking and can use knock off to cripple volc before being KO’d. Lots of chilly reception time limits morning sun healing while Volcarona can be checked with more typical options such as dragons.

In regards to the variability, some of the most popular Tera’s of the current meta:

• Tera dragon is the Tera of the day. Nearly every dragon that Volcarona can traditionally beat with Tera blast can viably pack a counter Tera of its own. Going into Tera dragon also means you’re straight losing to common dragon partners like Primarina or glowking. This volc might have a MUF advantage against 30% of teams.. max
• Tera ground is perhaps the most effective Tera type at overcoming checks, and teams are somewhat adapting to dealing with it. If the Volcarona makes a high commit play like using Tera ground, teams have priority options or backups like dragonite that can always bypass this. In theory this volc can possibly bypass more than 50% of teams that can check it, but it’s also easily revenged
• Tera fairy is easily countered by almost any offensive Tera fire user. It can be great tusk, kingambit, whatever you choose.
• Tera water has coverage problems against the most meta threats. Almost every team is packing a dragon or two.
• Tera bug is a recent trend and may be quite short lived due to being easily taken advantage of if the opponent knows the set
• Tera grass is good against everything except the dearth of dragons in OU. So the volc is getting strong MUF advantage against 10% or less of teams.

Generally speaking, there are very simple ways to crack open a volc, for example if it’s committed to a +1, and has 60% HP after KOing your last pokemon… and your next pokemon is a roaring moon, there’s nothing wrong with Tera-flying out of the bug weakness and getting either a KO or forcing out the volc with only 60%.

Haven’t even mentioned the passives like clodsire yet, or the lower popularity but still effective sets like SpDef Gliscor. Passives are usually overwhelmed with shared checks or lures, teching movesets to break through. Volc isn’t really similar to many things, so passives often get ahead of it outside of a specific set. The lower popularity but still effective sets like SpDef Gliscor are actually excellent checks and get other perks, such as the Gliscor example also checking raging bolt.

needing multiple checks isn’t a new concept. This is a new paradigm Tera meta.

stall biased players probably won’t complain since volc hasn’t been an issue
Bulky biased players probably don’t have too much complaints either
Balanced, hybrid and HO biased players are probably where the complaints kick in the most. Especially HO/Hybrid that often have to guess the set at the start of the MU. This is an issue resolved by game flow for those teams.

please share replays of how OP volc is and we can constructively assess the game flow .. this is a very simple case of the meta overreacting and then gradually adapting. Nothing new (GF, WW, Zam).

 

[Napoli Burns]

volc is 50% broken, 50% beneficial because it can check so many threats

A year ago when it got quickbanned was unstoppable while still being able to check many threats. Now with 2 dlcs i think is not more broken than other threats. Volca need to be lucky not only to waste/invest the tera slot, but also hope it has the right one.

Gambit had the same problem in the past, many sets to bait some of his checks with tera but against EVERY team, he had the strong weapon of the free, boosted attack, able to reverse sweep 90% of pokemons used in hyper offense with sucker punch or simply destroy stall and balanced teams because he can outspeed most walls. Volc without at least one quiver dance can't do nothing and is not so strong against stalls.

Roaring moon is by far more problematic for his power, he can still acro without wasting tera and do massive damages. Volcarona is forced to tera to beat some of his checks, rmoon has access to taunt and shut down most physical walls in the tier with a simple move slot.

I would understand a ban of volc if kyurem was banned and before this suspect, suspect (and ban) rmoon. This meant the end goal was remove 2 of the most strongest setup sweeper in the tier. But like this i don't see the goal in suspecting volc.

I think the meta now is decent - not so great - but can totally get worst without the moth.

tl;dr

 

[Finchinator]

As a general premise, preserving something because it checks Pokemon is a bad argument. If it’s broken, it should be banned. If not, of course it shouldn’t.

It’s really silly seeing the “oh Volcarona saves me from Moonblast from Valiant or Ice Beam from Kyurem” logic — if those things are broken after Volcarona goes, they will be handled as well. If we use this logic, the tier always remains the same. That’s totally fine if you like it and think nothing is broken, but then your argument should be that, not an argument about broken checking broken.

 

[Ctann]

volc is 50% broken, 50% beneficial because it can check so many threats

A year ago when it got quickbanned was unstoppable while still being able to check many threats. Now with 2 dlcs i think is not more broken than other threats. Volca need to be lucky not only to waste/invest the tera slot, but also hope it has the right one.

Gambit had the same problem in the past, many sets to bait some of his checks with tera but against EVERY team, he had the strong weapon of the free, boosted attack, able to reverse sweep 90% of pokemons used in hyper offense with sucker punch or simply destroy stall and balanced teams because he can outspeed most walls. Volc without at least one quiver dance can't do nothing and is not so strong against stalls.

Roaring moon is by far more problematic for his power, he can still acro without wasting tera and do massive damages. Volcarona is forced to tera to beat some of his checks, rmoon has access to taunt and shut down most physical walls in the tier with a simple move slot.

I would understand a ban of volc if kyurem was banned and before this suspect, suspect (and ban) rmoon. This meant the end goal was remove 2 of the most strongest setup sweeper in the tier. But like this i don't see the goal in suspecting volc.

I think the meta now is decent - not so great - but can totally get worst without the moth.

tl;dr

in simple terms Volcarona is adding net value. The gripes are against the wrong horse.

when you lose to Volcarona it’s more “omgsh that Tera just flipped it”

when you lose to roaring moon, it’s less direct. Because the roaring moon got KOd by your now 55% landorus without a helmet u turning into the dragonite e speed revenge. But that 55% landorus can’t do its job against the roaring moon support.

broken is when a pokemon is so good it can literally skip coverage (such as roaring moon now often skipping earthquake) because you just accept that the scripted ways of checking it will beat you anyway, and add value elsewhere (such as roaring moon now running taunt) so you have a better MU against the things that were stopping your teams momentum (such as ID, curse, recovery moves, opposing setup).

a better MUF example that’s actually extremely effective is kingambit. Since it can be useful over an entire match against every playstyle and every single team. This effectiveness is reflected in its high usage stats.

Volcarona is a MUF, nothing more, nothing less. Teams can adapt, people might not want to adapt, because there’s less pressure on teams to fit 3x or more ways to deal with SpA threats rather than the same teams needing 3x or more viable ways to deal with the physical offense spam and still lose to gambit or zam or whatever

 

[ausma]

Because of school and some other circumstances, I am not 100% sure how able it'll be for me to get reqs this go-around, but because I see this as a pretty important Pokemon to address, I think it's just as important that I vocalize my opinion.



Including Tera Blast, Volcarona is the most broken Pokemon in the tier imo. There are a multitude of factors that contribute to this; its set variety and ways it can spiral out of control are vast, and it's fairly easy for Volcarona to find setup fodder into a great chunk of the tier (namely thanks to how many bases Quiver Dance covers and how useful its pre-Tera typing is at forcing Pokemon like Draco Meteor-less Kyurem, non-Stone Edge Zamazenta, and Rillaboom out). Volcarona's fundamentals without Tera are very strong but manageable, however what brings it into broken territory for me is how much the combination of Tera Blast, Quiver Dance, and a new typing enable it to reliably turn whatever target it pleases into setup fodder. While no one set is capable of beating everything in the tier at once, that isn't quite what makes Volcarona's dynamic in the tier as troublesome as it actually is. The fact that it is able to carve a viable Tera type out of nearly half of all types and makes use of Tera Blast on a good majority of them is pretty ridiculous. There comes a point where set variety, even with Tera, becomes genuinely impossible to cover reliably. This is easy to make a speal about, so I want to elaborate a bit.

needing multiple checks isn’t a new concept. This is a new paradigm Tera meta.

This is an argument I anticipate will probably come up a few times throughout the suspect. On paper, this is a fine enough argument because I do think check overlap across playstyles that makes it easy to slot them on without impeding synergy is a fairly organic weakness that often balances centralized offensive threats. Of course, naturally, certain styles will definitely thrive more on average in the face of Pokemon like Volcarona which is a more dedicated setup sweeper as opposed to an actual wallbreaker. Obviously stall and fatter structures do better into it, which isn't necessarily a sign of unhealthiness for the suspect target if there are still organic options to work with. If that were the case, we'd be looking at Iron Boulder or Iron Moth which are far from broken but still solidly potent win conditions.

However, this argument is one that really needs to consider check overlap across a vast majority of playstyles as opposed to a few. Stall and fat in general have access to Pokemon like Clodsire and Blissey that don't consistently impede their gameplans, and while you could theoretically use them on other playstyles, using them on something like offense actively damages tempo and their gameplan. Defensive checks require salience with the composition itself, and when you don't have that, you have a team that is wildly inconsistent and volatile to pilot. In other words, reliable options should organically exist across playstyles regardless of if one style is more effective at handling a specific Pokemon over another. However if your only consistent way to stop a setup sweeper from getting out of hand are Pokemon that are not easy to slot onto teams, that imposes a dynamic that actually does damage the tier. Especially in a unique case like Volcarona where prepping for all of its sets is essentially impossible without a fat blob of a Special wall, that really isn't reasonable.

This user wanted some dynamics in practice, so I'll illustrate some. Volcarona on paper has qualities like Iron Boulder and Iron Moth as a setup sweeper, being solid win conditions that struggle more innately into stall but can still be handled across playstyles, but its unique dynamic with Tera creates a setup sweeper that cannot truly be blanket checked, and that really does create some really toxic dynamics in practice. Quiver Dance is a genuinely nuts move, with Fire-STAB to round off Tera Blast-granted coverage, and this synergy is so insanely versatile that it expands beyond a reasonable pool of checks across playstyles. It smites offense with Ground- Fairy- and Dragon-, Balance with Water- Ground- and Bug-, and there are even more options that it viably wrecks some offenses with with like Tera Grass with Giga Drain for offensive sustain, and that doesn't even mention Morning Sun, Substitute, Psychic, Giga Drain, and Bug Buzz as other options. Offense especially has to account for these widely spanning options and their almost juxtaposing applications, to a point where predicting and playing around a potential Tera is never really a certain endeavor. This often means that, to not have the situation where you lose important Pokemon out of nowhere, you have to make progress against it more carefully. However, because of Quiver Dance's snowballing nature and Volcarona's consistent defensive profile, playing footsies with the Tera type is not feasible. Paralyzing it with Galarian Slowking or Hatterene, for example, is not really enough to temper it, and all the while you're letting it stack Quiver Dance boosts and restore the Speed boosts it loses from the paralysis drop. Encore, also, doesn't really do enough. Iron Valiant and Teal Mask Ogerpon already lose the 1v1, and Hisuian Samurott/Wellspring Ogerpon can just get deleted before they get off the Encore, or set up against in the latter's case depending on the Tera type. The only generally reliable ways to stop it without fat blobs are with Toxic or phasing, the former of which can even be stiffled by Substitute variants which aren't even that uncommon and the latter also potentially being stiffled by the main users (Tera'd Zamazenta and Ting-Lu) being overwhelmed easily by its teammates. Flame Body is also a factor and I haven't even mentioned it!

Volcarona in its current state is not like any other setup sweeper. Its dynamic with Tera as a result of its fundamentals and Quiver Dance are just far too unreasonable to reliably check and account for across most structures. Even if it has some counters, those counters are so specific as a result of its insane versatility with Tera and Quiver Dance that in practice, it imposes a disgusting dynamic in-game that takes far more than it gives imo. Ban.

____

Before I end things off, I want to just say: for those who believe Tera Blast to be the core reason behind Volcarona's brokenness, I implore you to still vote to ban Volcarona. In general, even if you believe that something else is the main problem but you still think the suspect target contributes to it, don't vote DNB just because it isn't the target you wanted. I believe it's because so many people have differing beliefs as to the root problem of the tier that a lot of people are hesitating to take action on something they aren't 100% sure about, and that hesitancy is essentially creating a situation where no change can actually happen due to the supermajority required to ban Pokemon. However, at the end of the day, actions can always be revisited and offensive saturation is a nuanced issue that many Pokemon contribute to in one way or another right now. If you believe Volcarona in and of itself is problematic, even if it isn't the most broken thing to you right now, please vote to ban it.

Thanks.

 

[Ctann]

.

However, this argument is one that really needs to consider check overlap across a vast majority of playstyles as opposed to a few. Stall and fat in general have access to Pokemon like Clodsire and Blissey that don't consistently impede their gameplans, and while you could theoretically use them on other playstyles, using them on something like offense actively damages tempo and their gameplan. Defensive checks require salience with the composition itself, and when you don't have that, you have a team that is wildly inconsistent and volatile to pilot. In other words, reliable options should organically exist across playstyles regardless of if one style is more effective at handling a specific Pokemon over another. However if your only consistent way to stop a setup sweeper from getting out of hand are Pokemon that are not easy to slot onto teams, that imposes a dynamic that actually does damage the tier. Especially in a unique case like Volcarona where prepping for all of its sets is essentially impossible without a fat blob of a Special wall, that really isn't reasonable.

For the purposes of the argument, I think we can disregard stall and bulky teams in the matchup moth debate.

the problem seems to be mostly occurring in faster tempo teams that have limited options to adapt on the fly to surprises, such as a Tera whatever they didn’t expect.

let’s deconstruct some of these teams and why it’s very hard for them to deal with matchup moth.

1. They can’t answer to all the Tera types at once
2. They don’t want to use a Tera fire / water whatever to delete volc
3. They prefer not to use sets that can put a dent in a Volcarona that naturally likes to come in or quiver dance on something. Such as not wanting to use knock off on darkrai, meteor or scale shot or rock coverage on Kyurem, etc.
4. They don’t like that they need to change tempo/game flow on the fly if the Tera is one that’s unfavourable.
5. Generally being gimped by something unexpected like a Tera fairy Volcarona not running will-o-wisp, but rather running giga drain which deleted your primarina check.

why can’t these teams run simple solutions, similar to how teams are now running simple solutions like helmet landorus with some backups. It’s because these teams need 3+ checks for the actual problems, and just structural design for the Volcarona problem. But by using a Tera for example to deal with the Volcarona problem, they expose themselves more to the actual OP problems. So the path of least resistance is to ban matchup moth, because they can use predictable ways to cover the other threats.

structural design to resolve Volcarona example:

• you have gouging fire as a pretty solid volc check
• Gouging fire loses to ground and dragon, two of the highest usage sets.
• weavile is added to the team, and your playstyle with gouging fire is to spam your highest power move against the volc to keep its HP low in the event it decides to trade.
• Fairy, bug, grass and most other styles won’t beat gouging fire. Dragon and ground will
• Any attempt to trade with dragon or ground is punishable, so for the opponent to win, they have to have a standard end game wincon after wearing down checks the usual way
• If the Volcarona is Tera bug for example, it’s functionally useless as long as GF is healthy. Therefore it’s momentum-less. Congrats it’s closer to 6v5
• If the Volcarona is Tera ground for example, then your tempo and playstyle needs to be ready for the critical turn it might Tera. There’s a lot of pressure on the volc to perform, and it’s unlikely it will be able to. This isn’t a chi Yu or rapid strike after all.

in short, you’re putting performance pressure on the volc in the majority of matchups.

you can’t apply the same performance pressure to actual brokens like roaring moon, because it always makes progress. Just because it got KOd doesn’t mean it didn’t make its mark.

roaring moon can’t beat skarmory? That’s okay, skarmory is at 32% without a helmet and the rest of the team is HO. Roaring moon didn’t need to Tera, it didn’t care about the matchup.

or like kingambit because it’s always heavy, against everything not called dondozo/tusk. Tusk came in with its helmet to take only 20% and do 17% back? That’s okay, gambit can switch out and build up its power over the match. It can keep cycling the same stuff and only Tera when it’s ready to win.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

'we are seeing the paradoxical "the enemy is both strong and weak" logic used by fascist regimes to describe Volc'

ok lil bro

since its obligatory rules for no 1 liners, I'll tackle the easiest point. "Volcarona gives role good compression for the user in a tier with lots of threats" to a degree it can but its not bulky enough to be reliable used long term for the defensive use cases you're talking about, especially since volcarona requires good health to be used for sweeping which lets be real is the reason its on teams...its a sweeper. Even the main defensive use cases are pretty uncompetitive with flame body. For example rilla either knocks volc and gets sr to pressure it or it gets knock and gets burned and its really not worth to do so, since most volc teams have good hazard control or are too fast paced to get up hazards. Also the teambuilding pressure volcarona gives far exceeds the benefits of using it on your own team. You can use Volcarona but that still doesnt eliminate the question: which 1-3 volcs do I choose to lose to (since volc doesnt beat volc lol). Using volc does not eliminate the issue volc has of RNG based auto wins / mu autowins, so ur argument that itd needed to stabilize the tier makes no sense. Even then the mons u listed are still annoying and the tier is very unstable even with Volcarona so why not ban the mon anyways. Whatever problem that comes after a volc ban, we manage that next lol like thats how tiering has always been??? Even if we assume volc helps building, we need to limit the amount of offensive threats to stabilize the tier, which means not keeping broken mons that 'stabilize the tier' by virtue of being broken and beating most of the game in a uncompetitive/unbalanced way. aka volcarona and friends

I could say more but really I just thought that line was funny and respectfully I dont care about the rest since that line is just so fucking troll LMAO

These are all reasons Volc isn't that great of a pick on a team, the exact logical fallacy I was addressing, "it's not even that good so we gain nothing from not banning it" is just completely ass backwards

Volcarona "not being bulky enough to be used long term for those defensive cases" does not mean it is inapplicable for them, and in fact it being able to set up on the turn of the switch is far more relevant

I do not buy the idea that flame body is "uncompetitve" because it, at the cost of an important item, boots, you prevent the opponent from mindlessly spamming knock off, "most Volc teams have good hazard control" is also a fallacy because good hazard control does not exist

literally every offensive Pokémon has matchups it autowins, almost all have various Tera types with completely different counterplay, Volc is not remotely unique in this, can we use better logic than "why not?" to justify removing an entire Pokémon from a tier?

A Pokémon's success in battle being highly matchup dependent is not "RNG based auto wins" and you of all people should know what "RNG based" means

Please do not make comparisons to fascism (or any kind of political powers for that matter) in this thread, thanks.

edited per request (and because multiple people fixated on the analogy enough to ignore the entire rest of the post)

As a general premise, preserving something because it checks Pokemon is a bad argument. If it’s broken, it should be banned. If not, of course it shouldn’t.

It’s really silly seeing the “oh Volcarona saves me from Moonblast from Valiant or Ice Beam from Kyurem” logic — if those things are broken after Volcarona goes, they will be handled as well. If we use this logic, the tier always remains the same. That’s totally fine if you like it and think nothing is broken, but then your argument should be that, not an argument about broken checking broken.

Will they be handled though? Can you tell me with a straight face that Iron Valiant will be banned from OU? I don't think Iron Valiant or Kyurem are broken, but Volcarona being around balance them out in very healthy ways and they both, valiant especially, add a lot to the tier in their own right. I would much rather play an OU with Volcarona and Iron Valiant than one with neither. Kyurem i could see being banned in the aftermath but really? Iron Valiant? Furthermore, I am getting a lot of mixed messages about a post-Volcarona OU. I am constantly being told "Volcarona's ban won't be a slippery slope, it'll be ok, we won't go back to DLC1 Zap King Lu, etc" and here we have the tier leader saying that 2 more Pokémon might be banned post-Volc, further bringing the offensive power level of the meta down. So which is it? If Volcarona is banned, Kyurem is banned in its absence, Gliscor is banned in Kyurem's absence, what happens then? Throughout the history of SV we have constantly heard "just vote ban don't worry about what happens to the meta after" in an attempt to force action, then seen bans that made the meta worse, Gliscor being the best example. The tier needs to change at least a little bit, but the chain reaction that Volcarona would cause is not desirable and we have already seen this be the case. Using the logic of "this ban would have adverse effects and I don't want it" is not "broken checks broken." We don't need to ban Volc, then Kyurem, then Valiant, then god knows what else, all of those 3 can stay where they are and that would be fine. This is not necessarily "the tier being exactly the same" as there are Pokémon that can be removed that would improve this meta, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring. Volcarona just isn't one of them.

 

[Finchinator]

Can you tell me with a straight face that Iron Valiant will be banned from OU?

No, but Volcarona is not holding back Iron Valiant from being broken in OU. In fact, Volcarona does not beat Iron Valiant's second best set and never wants to switch-in to Knock Off as is.

here we have the tier leader saying that 2 more Pokémon might be banned post-Volc, further bringing the offensive power level of the meta down.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that people trying to predict the future of the tier without Volcarona has nothing to do with how people vote...on Volcarona in a tier where it is allowed.

This premise has existed for as long as current generation tiering has: you tier for the current metagame and then worry about the future metagame in the future. You cannot predict every domino falling precisely after something is banned or unbanned, but you can evaluate the current metagame.

If your argument is Volcarona is not broken and should remain unbanned because of that, then by all means. In fact, I encourage it even. But if you think it is broken and just do not want to lose a counter to X, Y, or Z, then that is lazy and defeats the purpose of tiering at all. We are not here to theorymon about net positive vs net negative when tiering is not a single step process, but a generational one.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

For those who complain due to having a Volcarona weak-team:

• Valiant can force damage on a Volcarona, which can safely be revenged or forced out by partners. Volcarona also needs to KO valiant in order not to get encored on the next turn.

????????????????????????

i'm very confused because i was under the impression that volc was the single most reliable valiant answer in the tier, to the point where valiant was only really controversial in the periods of the meta where volc was in ubers (for the record, this is no longer the case and valiant would be fine in volc's absence now). volc is even listed under valiant's "checks and counters" on the stats page. why is valiant being listed here as an answer to volc? did something change? are liquidation sets finally real now? did flame body just stop working on knock off?

 

[Ctann]

????????????????????????

i'm very confused because i was under the impression that volc was the single most reliable valiant answer in the tier, to the point where valiant was only really controversial in the periods of the meta where volc was in ubers. volc is listed under valiant's "checks and counters" on the stats page. why is valiant being listed here as an answer to volc? did something change? are liquidation sets finally real now?

no mate, when teams weak to volc want to beat it, the best way is often to force it out due to the weakness. Such as valiant accepting it will get KOd (since it can’t make progress anyway) but in return it’s 72% Volcarona locked into fiery dance, or whatever.

valiant fainted, but it wasn’t gonna crack Volcarona anyway, and now 72% Volcarona has a harder time becoming a win con.

watch a few games on ladder of how people beat volc despite having things like valiant that are weak to it. It will make a lot more sense.

I’m more than happy to share replays. To no one’s surprise I’m not seeing crazy Volcarona usage tho.. so it might be a while to build up a few replays.