Doing a 1 v 1 literally takes the one thing that makes Archaludon broken, Rain.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - London Bridge is Falling Down
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
This is pretty much rule #1 of suspect threads, and we explained at length why Archaludon specifically is suspect worthy. I also touched on why Drizzle/Barraskewda are not worth looking into at this moment in the metagame thread as well -- see here for a full breakdown on Barraskewda in particular.
If you think Drizzle (or Damp Rock, Barraskewda, etc.) deserve a separate test, then by all means bring it up in the metagame discussion thread. But it does not belong here at all. This discussion is not going to magically change the topic when it would be the incorrect tiering approach to handle Drizzle first right now, but rather just derail the thread (as similar things have derailed prior suspects, hence the rule I am quoting). It is possible we discuss Raging Bolt in the future, but this is far from Rain specific (and I would argue it is comparably effective elsewhere) and more due to its overall presence.
Nanulak
formerly PokefanKIV
I’ll still do it. I kinda want to
I mean if archaludon is only absurdly busted on rain specifically and kinda meh without rain doesn't that mean that banning it for being one of the best users on rain is a silly idea
So what, if something is obviously broken, even in a limited archetype, it doesn’t deserve a ban, even if it just trade 2 decisive mons ? Making rain broken ? So what, we ban rain ?
We’ve had weather abusers in the past that we’ve banned because they break their playstyle. It’s actually decently common; Sneasler was broken with terrain support and
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Sorry, but you said duraludon instead of baxcalibur, which was potentially broken outside of veil, but was pushed over the edge definitevly by snow. Typo aside, a mon that is broken on one style is grounds for it being broken. If it is limited and can still destroy the rest of the metagame, then it is still broken. Even if you could only use something like flutter mane on electric terrain, you would still use electric terrain to win because flutter mane is so good. We have had that in past generations for BW Excadrill, which wasn't banworthy on non-sand teams, but was bs on sand teams.
Rain can still adapt afterwards with stuff like overqwil, and we should keep an eye on it to see if rain is still immensly strong, but it definetely suffer from the loss of arch, which is a good thing to nerf this broken playstyle.
Assuming that I wind up getting reqs (which will be an uphill battle this time around), will be voting DNB.
Simply put, Arch is not the main catalyst behind rain being as strong as it is right now. Rain's power is a team effort, stemming from multiple abusers and soft synergies between its offensive partners. Pokemon such as Barraskewda dealing upwards of 80% damage to resist such as Dragapult, and Raging Bolt gaining psuedo STAB on a 100 BP Water move which it can use with virtual 0 opportunity cost to destroy the handful of answers to it are just few of many examples of Pokemon that push the playstyle over the edge. Is Archaludon one of the strongest members of rain? Yes! Is it entirely unique in how overpowered it is as a result of rain? Not quite.
For all the fear mongering about rain's winrate in SPL, there were multiple games where Archaludon didn't actually do all that much, despite the rain team winning in the end. Lets take a look at a few of them.
[SCO] Kushalos vs shiloh [WOL]
Arch gets crit by a Low Kick from Ogerpon and does nothing the entire game. Nonetheless, Kushalos was able to maintain a solid amount of Volturn pressure against kaladin's team throughout the match and was able to clutch out the match with a Barraskewda sweep.
[SHA] Mimikyu Stardust vs oldspicemike [RUI]
Arch accomplishes quite a bit here. Outspeeds and KOes Primarina + survives a Focus Blast from Iron Crown and deal a good bit of damage in return. However, a keen player will notice that a majority of the pressure in this match wasn't coming from Archaludon itself, but from Barraskewda's incredibly powerful Flip Turns, which oldspicemike used to maintain a powerful positional advantage against Mimikyu. This long term pressure did make it easier to eventually rack up big damage in the end-game once Landorus-T was removed from the board.
[CLA] Isza vs CTC [TYR]
Arch winds up checking Blaziken in the end-game with the combination of Tera Fairy + Rain to resist its STABs. The rain fortunately ended the following turn, as that allowed Archaludon to survive the following Hydro Steam and KO Walking Wake with Flash Cannon. That being said, most of the breaking in this match was performed by Raging Bolt, which was able to get a 2-1 trade vs Torkal, Dragapult, and Iron Treads, which it surprsied with Weather Ball. Despite its contribution to the endgame, I can't say it made much of an impact here, as CTC had other Routes to win. For example, Tera Water Aqua Jet in Rain -> Knock Out Blaziken -> chip wake, go to Valiant, win.
[RAI] DAHLI vs Shafofficiel [SHA]
Arch did not come out once. Most of the work in this match was from Raging Bolt, which was able to make a 2.5 mon trade early on using Weather Ball + Tera Fairy. Barraskewda and Dragapult used these trades to clean rather easily.
[RAI] Punny vs kumiko [SHA]
Arch's main contribution this match was forcing a Tera Ghost from Alolamola early on before being KOed in return by Mirror Coat. Kumiko was able to play a masterful game in order to win from this devastating initial positon (and I do commend their skill).
Now, this is just a meager sample size of the games from SPL. There were also a few games where Archaludon was able to completely pop-off and snowball out of control. However, to say that this was to a far greater calibur than what either Barraskewda or Raging Bolt could accomplish is disingenuise.
Archaludon's fundamental traits ensure that it can never be overpowered. Middling special bulk and speed all but mandate that it run Assault Vest into order to not be overwhelmed by the multitude of Special attackers in the tier such as Walking Wake and Kyurem. Its longevity is nil due to its vulnerability to Spikes (which are still incredibly difficult to remove). The amount of support it requires (between hazard removal, pivoting support, possibly Healing Wish, possibly Grassy Terrain, and Rain) to reach a broken level is ridiculously high, far greater than the average suspect. Many of its moves have common immunities that one can use to pivot into, which is espicially bad in a Tera metagame, and when Archaludon is operating under a limited number of rain turns.
I completely agree with the notion that the rain strategy as a whole is too strong, but I don't think banning Archaludon is the way to go in order to nerf it. Archaludon itself brings a lot of unique value to the tier, with its Stamina ability letting it punish commonly spammed attacks such as U-Turn, ExtremeSpeed, Triple Axel, and Flip Turn, and its general defensive profile being very unique and strong vs the dominant Pokemon in DLC1 such as Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and Zapdos. It has a really cool role on G-Terrain teams, with it compressing a ton of utility between setting up rocks, gaining additional recovery, neutralizing its ground weakness somewhat in order to better handle threats such as Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Gliscor, etc. I personally would hate to lose this Pokemon considering the high amount of utility it can bring to a team.
This is one bridge I'd rather not burn down.
Simply put, Arch is not the main catalyst behind rain being as strong as it is right now. Rain's power is a team effort, stemming from multiple abusers and soft synergies between its offensive partners. Pokemon such as Barraskewda dealing upwards of 80% damage to resist such as Dragapult, and Raging Bolt gaining psuedo STAB on a 100 BP Water move which it can use with virtual 0 opportunity cost to destroy the handful of answers to it are just few of many examples of Pokemon that push the playstyle over the edge. Is Archaludon one of the strongest members of rain? Yes! Is it entirely unique in how overpowered it is as a result of rain? Not quite.
For all the fear mongering about rain's winrate in SPL, there were multiple games where Archaludon didn't actually do all that much, despite the rain team winning in the end. Lets take a look at a few of them.
[SCO] Kushalos vs shiloh [WOL]
Arch gets crit by a Low Kick from Ogerpon and does nothing the entire game. Nonetheless, Kushalos was able to maintain a solid amount of Volturn pressure against kaladin's team throughout the match and was able to clutch out the match with a Barraskewda sweep.
[SHA] Mimikyu Stardust vs oldspicemike [RUI]
Arch accomplishes quite a bit here. Outspeeds and KOes Primarina + survives a Focus Blast from Iron Crown and deal a good bit of damage in return. However, a keen player will notice that a majority of the pressure in this match wasn't coming from Archaludon itself, but from Barraskewda's incredibly powerful Flip Turns, which oldspicemike used to maintain a powerful positional advantage against Mimikyu. This long term pressure did make it easier to eventually rack up big damage in the end-game once Landorus-T was removed from the board.
[CLA] Isza vs CTC [TYR]
Arch winds up checking Blaziken in the end-game with the combination of Tera Fairy + Rain to resist its STABs. The rain fortunately ended the following turn, as that allowed Archaludon to survive the following Hydro Steam and KO Walking Wake with Flash Cannon. That being said, most of the breaking in this match was performed by Raging Bolt, which was able to get a 2-1 trade vs Torkal, Dragapult, and Iron Treads, which it surprsied with Weather Ball. Despite its contribution to the endgame, I can't say it made much of an impact here, as CTC had other Routes to win. For example, Tera Water Aqua Jet in Rain -> Knock Out Blaziken -> chip wake, go to Valiant, win.
[RAI] DAHLI vs Shafofficiel [SHA]
Arch did not come out once. Most of the work in this match was from Raging Bolt, which was able to make a 2.5 mon trade early on using Weather Ball + Tera Fairy. Barraskewda and Dragapult used these trades to clean rather easily.
[RAI] Punny vs kumiko [SHA]
Arch's main contribution this match was forcing a Tera Ghost from Alolamola early on before being KOed in return by Mirror Coat. Kumiko was able to play a masterful game in order to win from this devastating initial positon (and I do commend their skill).
Now, this is just a meager sample size of the games from SPL. There were also a few games where Archaludon was able to completely pop-off and snowball out of control. However, to say that this was to a far greater calibur than what either Barraskewda or Raging Bolt could accomplish is disingenuise.
Archaludon's fundamental traits ensure that it can never be overpowered. Middling special bulk and speed all but mandate that it run Assault Vest into order to not be overwhelmed by the multitude of Special attackers in the tier such as Walking Wake and Kyurem. Its longevity is nil due to its vulnerability to Spikes (which are still incredibly difficult to remove). The amount of support it requires (between hazard removal, pivoting support, possibly Healing Wish, possibly Grassy Terrain, and Rain) to reach a broken level is ridiculously high, far greater than the average suspect. Many of its moves have common immunities that one can use to pivot into, which is espicially bad in a Tera metagame, and when Archaludon is operating under a limited number of rain turns.
I completely agree with the notion that the rain strategy as a whole is too strong, but I don't think banning Archaludon is the way to go in order to nerf it. Archaludon itself brings a lot of unique value to the tier, with its Stamina ability letting it punish commonly spammed attacks such as U-Turn, ExtremeSpeed, Triple Axel, and Flip Turn, and its general defensive profile being very unique and strong vs the dominant Pokemon in DLC1 such as Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and Zapdos. It has a really cool role on G-Terrain teams, with it compressing a ton of utility between setting up rocks, gaining additional recovery, neutralizing its ground weakness somewhat in order to better handle threats such as Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Gliscor, etc. I personally would hate to lose this Pokemon considering the high amount of utility it can bring to a team.
This is one bridge I'd rather not burn down.
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I've recently been playing OU again and from what I've played, I think that Archauludon is really strong, but I should not be banned.
Heatranator said in this thread that Damp Rock should be suspected instead, and I completely agree. If Archauludon gets banned, rain will still have enough tools to still be problematic. Overqwill is a mon I've been testing and seems really strong, Kingdra is an amazing cleaner, barraskewda is...Barraskewda. Even Pelipper itself is not a bad mon in its own right.
It's true that Archauludon is quite frustrating to face if you don't have the tools to face, as it leaves really big holes on your team or even wins by itself. But... So does every rain-mon, and because of that I think that limiting the turns that this playstyle has could be much better.
Heatranator said in this thread that Damp Rock should be suspected instead, and I completely agree. If Archauludon gets banned, rain will still have enough tools to still be problematic. Overqwill is a mon I've been testing and seems really strong, Kingdra is an amazing cleaner, barraskewda is...Barraskewda. Even Pelipper itself is not a bad mon in its own right.
It's true that Archauludon is quite frustrating to face if you don't have the tools to face, as it leaves really big holes on your team or even wins by itself. But... So does every rain-mon, and because of that I think that limiting the turns that this playstyle has could be much better.
Right originally I wasn't going to comment much on this but decided why not
My personal opinion on Archaludon is DNB, though I'm likely not going to do reqs to do being busy
Archaludon is a very good mon, it does amazing in rain and can even be used in grassy terrain teams with a more defensive set, however despite this I do not think it's overwhelming
while it is a very important mon in rain there are a fair few checks that deal with it quite fine, quite a lot of mons are able to revenge it pretty well, most offensive wall breakers and some strong hitting fighting fight or ground types are able to deal with it pretty well, some special attackers also have a pretty good time against it but AV does make that harder for them on a set to set basis, it is also quite susceptible to spikes as it lacks any sort of proper longevity so putting it in a position where it needs to switch out is generally beneficial, in addition most specially defensive ground types are able to check it quite well and since its a rain team these ground types taking a lot of damage generally isn't a huge loss under normal circumstances that is.
HOWEVER this is also why mons like iron treads, kingambit, raging bolt and a few others ended up being used in teams with arch as well, since a lot of arch checks also happen to check these mons as well, especially raging bolt in this case as the majority of arch checks are also raging bolt checks so taking a strong hit from one or the other is a bit problematic for overall teams
however this isn't anymore a reason to ban arch as it is kingambit or raging bolt who both see more usage than arch's overall usage, I bring this up cause this is also one of the biggest arguments for a archaludon ban, that the check you use for archaludon is also your check for a different mon on the team and thus taking too much damage from either one would result in the other being able to break past the check
As such this situation is a lot more complicated than at first glance as a combination of factors is what's causing arch to be harder to deal with than normal
naturally there are situation's when arch does snowball out of control (having both done it myself and having it happen to me before) but those cases tend to be on the rarer side as Magcargo points out in his post on the spl matches and are not any more common than barreskewda or raging bolt sweeping entire teams
overall I think the situation with rain is a bit more complicated than a single mon being too strong and while banning arch would be a heavy blow to rain (in a similar fashion that banning pelipper or drizzle would) I would argue that there are better bans to be made if we wish to hit rain while also making a healthier meta game and that arch would become much more manageable if it loses the support of these mons
thus why I believe arch shouldn't be banned
My personal opinion on Archaludon is DNB, though I'm likely not going to do reqs to do being busy
Archaludon is a very good mon, it does amazing in rain and can even be used in grassy terrain teams with a more defensive set, however despite this I do not think it's overwhelming
while it is a very important mon in rain there are a fair few checks that deal with it quite fine, quite a lot of mons are able to revenge it pretty well, most offensive wall breakers and some strong hitting fighting fight or ground types are able to deal with it pretty well, some special attackers also have a pretty good time against it but AV does make that harder for them on a set to set basis, it is also quite susceptible to spikes as it lacks any sort of proper longevity so putting it in a position where it needs to switch out is generally beneficial, in addition most specially defensive ground types are able to check it quite well and since its a rain team these ground types taking a lot of damage generally isn't a huge loss under normal circumstances that is.
HOWEVER this is also why mons like iron treads, kingambit, raging bolt and a few others ended up being used in teams with arch as well, since a lot of arch checks also happen to check these mons as well, especially raging bolt in this case as the majority of arch checks are also raging bolt checks so taking a strong hit from one or the other is a bit problematic for overall teams
however this isn't anymore a reason to ban arch as it is kingambit or raging bolt who both see more usage than arch's overall usage, I bring this up cause this is also one of the biggest arguments for a archaludon ban, that the check you use for archaludon is also your check for a different mon on the team and thus taking too much damage from either one would result in the other being able to break past the check
As such this situation is a lot more complicated than at first glance as a combination of factors is what's causing arch to be harder to deal with than normal
naturally there are situation's when arch does snowball out of control (having both done it myself and having it happen to me before) but those cases tend to be on the rarer side as Magcargo points out in his post on the spl matches and are not any more common than barreskewda or raging bolt sweeping entire teams
overall I think the situation with rain is a bit more complicated than a single mon being too strong and while banning arch would be a heavy blow to rain (in a similar fashion that banning pelipper or drizzle would) I would argue that there are better bans to be made if we wish to hit rain while also making a healthier meta game and that arch would become much more manageable if it loses the support of these mons
thus why I believe arch shouldn't be banned
finch already said to not talk about other potential suspects, which you can scroll up on this very page to find.
and no, rain won’t have the tools if arch got banned. There’s a reason it wasn’t remotely considered a problem in dlc1. And in fact wasn’t a super consistent playstyle before arch came out. Arch compresses a large amount of important roles for rain in one slot while being a giant threat itself.
it’s a lot easier to check rain with water resists when you’re not risking giving free switch ins for arch to start putting out huge pressure. Arch has very limited defensive counter play which puts a large amount of stress on the builder, which is an issue when the tier is already so oversaturated with threats.
Wanna start this off by saying that the argument that Archaludon is only broken on rain loses all it's weight when rain becomes to most spammed playstyle and reaches ridiculous winrates in tournaments. If you told me that Archaludon was only broken on Trick Room, or any archetype that requires huge drawback for the user, then I could hear you out, but this is simply not the case. There is really no reason not to use rain, it matches up well against every single archetype except stall and it is absolutely not a good thing for the tier.
You can talk about Raging Bolt if you want, and I am in favor of it being looked at in the future (In 25 suspects maybe, considering how much this tier needs bans) but the sample size of rain being broken without Archaludon is literally non existent in SPL (and on ladder probably) while there is sample size of the opposite existing. (TDK's or mike's rain to talk about a couple.) There's been 5 rains without Raging Bolt, 2 rains without barraskewda, and 0 rains without Archaludon in SPL so far. Sounds like the main culprit to me.
This mon has absolutely no place in the tier, the defensive counterplay does not exist and if you mention clodsire then you are talking in such bad faith considering that Clodsire is super hard to fit on any teams unless you like getting abused all game or stall (Archaludon not breaking stall is not an argument that it's not broken fwiw). TingLu can work but TingLu is not as good and as common as it was on balance, and it can also be abused quite easily by Rain. (force tera, chip) Finch's expanded well on Arch's counterplay so I'll just say read his post for a more detailed explaination for the rest and notably Slowking-Galar.
Rain is also pretty hard to get good leverage right off the bat. Sun is a good counterexample, I think that everyone can agree that Walking Wake would be quickbanned if it could always have a protosynthesis boost and a boosted Hydro Steam without Sun, but it ACTUALLY requires support that is easily abusable. It's hard to get Sun going (I am not so sure anymore with Gouging Fire around, but I am mainly talking about Home or DLC 1 Sun, however I believe this still applies now), there are so many things that bother it right from turn 1 (dragapult, glimmora + roaring moon, id zamazenta, knock clefable, dragonite, terad tinglu to once again only name a few) so it's not overbearing and a well built team will most likely always have tools. THIS is a broken mon that actually requires liability in it's support (and why it's rightfully a DNB), Archaludon and Rain does NOT suffer from any of that.
Archaludon does not fit the usual archetype of the broken mon that should be banned so I am a bit worried about the result of this suspect. In an ideal world, you'd just ban electro shot but that simply isn't possible here, I am myself not sure the move would be broken on just any other pokemon, the combinaison of Stamina + Typing + Bulk + SpA + Terastallization is too good of an enabler but as no other mon have access to it, it is a non option.
Yes, outside of Rain, Archaludon would be fine and would most likely fall to UU. Magcargo explained some benefits it could have to the tier (some of it is irrelevant imo but some is also valid) but I believe these benefits just simply don't make up for the overall broken-ness of the mon. This is not a Kingambit situation where losing it would probably unbalance the entire tier, no mon in the tier is going to become insufferable because Archaludon has been banned, nothing will get out of hand, so it's pretty much irrelevant to me at this point.
Archaludon is the glue on rain and it most likely falls apart if it goes which is why I'll be voting to Ban Archaludon from the metagame, it is simply not healthy, does not bring shit to the tier and while Rain being viable is cool, rain being viable on that level certainly isn't wether you like it or not. If for some reason it winds up not being enough, then guess what, something else will be looked at (which I don't think is going to end up being the case). I truly believe that voting DNB on Archaludon because you think Raging Bolt or Barraskewda is the problem is such a big mistake, there is a high chance an Archaludon ban is enough to nerf rain enough that it doesn't become insufferable, while I 100% believe a raging bolt ban or barra ban would not fix anything on their own.
Magcargo Your post is well written and raises some good points but there are some things I would like to reply to as I feel they're quite untrue;
TDK vs Punny: This is not the example you think it is, Archaludon being able to force a Terastallization of Alomomola is HUGE as the primary water resist is now gone from the game, TDK played really well and this was probably the only game featuring rain that was fun to watch, but Archaludon was insanely important in that game.
Kushalos vs Shiloh: Not sure why we're using a game were Archaludon gets haxed as an example, but Archaludon's getting a hit off on Cornerstone was huge as the game ended up deciding on an Aqua Jet roll on the same Ogerpon (very small chance not to kill, but still).
Onto the pivoting part, it would be true if Electro Shot didn't give you a SpA boost if it failed on ground types, then I would fully agree but that's not the reality we're living it right now, making pivoting just impossible, wow, got the switch right and outplayed your opponent? well he now has a +SpA boost, congrats.
But as I said, I don't mind your post, it is always more fun to argue with well written posts containing actual valid arguments, so thank you for being so far, almost the good post from the DNB side in this thread.
You can talk about Raging Bolt if you want, and I am in favor of it being looked at in the future (In 25 suspects maybe, considering how much this tier needs bans) but the sample size of rain being broken without Archaludon is literally non existent in SPL (and on ladder probably) while there is sample size of the opposite existing. (TDK's or mike's rain to talk about a couple.) There's been 5 rains without Raging Bolt, 2 rains without barraskewda, and 0 rains without Archaludon in SPL so far. Sounds like the main culprit to me.
This mon has absolutely no place in the tier, the defensive counterplay does not exist and if you mention clodsire then you are talking in such bad faith considering that Clodsire is super hard to fit on any teams unless you like getting abused all game or stall (Archaludon not breaking stall is not an argument that it's not broken fwiw). TingLu can work but TingLu is not as good and as common as it was on balance, and it can also be abused quite easily by Rain. (force tera, chip) Finch's expanded well on Arch's counterplay so I'll just say read his post for a more detailed explaination for the rest and notably Slowking-Galar.
Rain is also pretty hard to get good leverage right off the bat. Sun is a good counterexample, I think that everyone can agree that Walking Wake would be quickbanned if it could always have a protosynthesis boost and a boosted Hydro Steam without Sun, but it ACTUALLY requires support that is easily abusable. It's hard to get Sun going (I am not so sure anymore with Gouging Fire around, but I am mainly talking about Home or DLC 1 Sun, however I believe this still applies now), there are so many things that bother it right from turn 1 (dragapult, glimmora + roaring moon, id zamazenta, knock clefable, dragonite, terad tinglu to once again only name a few) so it's not overbearing and a well built team will most likely always have tools. THIS is a broken mon that actually requires liability in it's support (and why it's rightfully a DNB), Archaludon and Rain does NOT suffer from any of that.
Archaludon does not fit the usual archetype of the broken mon that should be banned so I am a bit worried about the result of this suspect. In an ideal world, you'd just ban electro shot but that simply isn't possible here, I am myself not sure the move would be broken on just any other pokemon, the combinaison of Stamina + Typing + Bulk + SpA + Terastallization is too good of an enabler but as no other mon have access to it, it is a non option.
Yes, outside of Rain, Archaludon would be fine and would most likely fall to UU. Magcargo explained some benefits it could have to the tier (some of it is irrelevant imo but some is also valid) but I believe these benefits just simply don't make up for the overall broken-ness of the mon. This is not a Kingambit situation where losing it would probably unbalance the entire tier, no mon in the tier is going to become insufferable because Archaludon has been banned, nothing will get out of hand, so it's pretty much irrelevant to me at this point.
Archaludon is the glue on rain and it most likely falls apart if it goes which is why I'll be voting to Ban Archaludon from the metagame, it is simply not healthy, does not bring shit to the tier and while Rain being viable is cool, rain being viable on that level certainly isn't wether you like it or not. If for some reason it winds up not being enough, then guess what, something else will be looked at (which I don't think is going to end up being the case). I truly believe that voting DNB on Archaludon because you think Raging Bolt or Barraskewda is the problem is such a big mistake, there is a high chance an Archaludon ban is enough to nerf rain enough that it doesn't become insufferable, while I 100% believe a raging bolt ban or barra ban would not fix anything on their own.
Magcargo Your post is well written and raises some good points but there are some things I would like to reply to as I feel they're quite untrue;
TDK vs Punny: This is not the example you think it is, Archaludon being able to force a Terastallization of Alomomola is HUGE as the primary water resist is now gone from the game, TDK played really well and this was probably the only game featuring rain that was fun to watch, but Archaludon was insanely important in that game.
Kushalos vs Shiloh: Not sure why we're using a game were Archaludon gets haxed as an example, but Archaludon's getting a hit off on Cornerstone was huge as the game ended up deciding on an Aqua Jet roll on the same Ogerpon (very small chance not to kill, but still).
I don't agree with this at all, as I explained before, I don't see it, it is insanely hard to get hazards up against rain that it's a non issue almost, pivoting support well I also don't think it needs that much, sure flip turn and uturn help, but like most of the time it's able to just hard switch onto most stuff, get the stamina boost, and still snowball into being unstoppable. Healing Wish is a non issue, it doesn't need that, doesn't need grassy terrain either. I don't think that you can classify this as "ridiculously high" and "far greater than the average suspect", it is higher because it does require rain and spin, but that's all it is.
Onto the pivoting part, it would be true if Electro Shot didn't give you a SpA boost if it failed on ground types, then I would fully agree but that's not the reality we're living it right now, making pivoting just impossible, wow, got the switch right and outplayed your opponent? well he now has a +SpA boost, congrats.
But as I said, I don't mind your post, it is always more fun to argue with well written posts containing actual valid arguments, so thank you for being so far, almost the good post from the DNB side in this thread.
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WinstonRed
I COULD BE BANNED!
Third gen in a row where Rain eventually causes issues 
I'll make a more detailled post when I'm home later, but the tl;dr will be somewhere along the lines of what Finchinator posted. A pokemon should never be able to boast that much survivability while still being able to set up itself for multiple K.O.s, especially not in a gen where Tera is around to reduce it's counterplay even more
I'll make a more detailled post when I'm home later, but the tl;dr will be somewhere along the lines of what Finchinator posted. A pokemon should never be able to boast that much survivability while still being able to set up itself for multiple K.O.s, especially not in a gen where Tera is around to reduce it's counterplay even more
Not going to make a huge wall of text, but I just wanted to get something off my chest quick.
Even if you think the problem is rain in of itself, and not Archaludon, you should still be voting ban. Seperating Archaludon from the rest of Rain would only help with showcasing your point that Rain is a problematic element in of itself.
Even if you think the problem is rain in of itself, and not Archaludon, you should still be voting ban. Seperating Archaludon from the rest of Rain would only help with showcasing your point that Rain is a problematic element in of itself.
As a strong dragon type pokemon with hard to resist offensive presence that almost always picks up a few kills and boasts impressive bulk and a good ability, there is a clear comparison to something we have already dealt with this generation.
= 
I can't help but see comparisons between these two. While weather support is definitely a stronger boost to Archaludon than it was to Bax (arguably), rain is a lot easier to fit than snow in the current metagame. Properly supported, these pokemon boast offensive pressure greater than any other pokemon in the tier. For Baxcalibur, it overwhelmed physical walls leaving no reliable defensive answers besides a desperation defensive tera on the right move, which left opponents open to prediction and the Baxcalibur team's own tera threats. For Archaludon, it may stop short of it's special attacks outright beating special walls, but it has body press to make up that difference. It overwhelms special walls leaving no reliable defensive answers besides a desperation defensive tera (ghost blissey) which leaves opponents open to prediction and other threats.
Some aspects of these two are different of course, Bax having notably stronger power off the bat and not needing weather to reach that level. Archaludon certainly is less of a threat outside of rain, but it's no slouch. And to top it off it has support options Baxcalibur does not have, like stealth rock, screens, dragon tail, roar, thunder wave, and the list goes on. A sturdy steel type is very valuable in a meta with so many dragons, and defence boosting body press is already extremely good on other pokemon in the tier so we know it will be useful for a long time. I actually think Archaludon is under explored in a lot of ways due to its extensive movepool. Did you know he has 105 base attack and rock slide? What about meteor beam?
To me it's clear that Archaludon possesses a level of bulk, power, and versatility a step above other things in the tier. And it should be considered banworthy for that reason.
= I can't help but see comparisons between these two. While weather support is definitely a stronger boost to Archaludon than it was to Bax (arguably), rain is a lot easier to fit than snow in the current metagame. Properly supported, these pokemon boast offensive pressure greater than any other pokemon in the tier. For Baxcalibur, it overwhelmed physical walls leaving no reliable defensive answers besides a desperation defensive tera on the right move, which left opponents open to prediction and the Baxcalibur team's own tera threats. For Archaludon, it may stop short of it's special attacks outright beating special walls, but it has body press to make up that difference. It overwhelms special walls leaving no reliable defensive answers besides a desperation defensive tera (ghost blissey) which leaves opponents open to prediction and other threats.
Some aspects of these two are different of course, Bax having notably stronger power off the bat and not needing weather to reach that level. Archaludon certainly is less of a threat outside of rain, but it's no slouch. And to top it off it has support options Baxcalibur does not have, like stealth rock, screens, dragon tail, roar, thunder wave, and the list goes on. A sturdy steel type is very valuable in a meta with so many dragons, and defence boosting body press is already extremely good on other pokemon in the tier so we know it will be useful for a long time. I actually think Archaludon is under explored in a lot of ways due to its extensive movepool. Did you know he has 105 base attack and rock slide? What about meteor beam?
To me it's clear that Archaludon possesses a level of bulk, power, and versatility a step above other things in the tier. And it should be considered banworthy for that reason.
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This is a smart take and an interesting point.
My concern though, is what is OU's unban record historically?
Many think that Ludon outside rain is a healthy part of the tier.
If it's found out that rain is the real issue and Drizzle is banned, is it realistic that Ludon would be unbanned or is this something that really doesn't happen?
You must be damned if you think im letting one of the biggest glow ups in pokemon history go out like this, its like when my boy gliscor was booted out with goddamn brittany spears music
Jokes aside i am on the verge of getting reqs and while i most certainly understand the outrage over archaludon’s spl perfomance,
i doubt anything will be able to make me as an individual vote for a ban, i simply disagree with banning archaludon on a fundemental level because of the variety of special attackers we have
i’ve been playing lots of games to prepare for my tournament matches and archaludon has appeared in most of them, sometimes it puts in work but never to a backbreaking extent and me or my opponent normally tend to find ways to check it
Jokes aside i am on the verge of getting reqs and while i most certainly understand the outrage over archaludon’s spl perfomance,
i doubt anything will be able to make me as an individual vote for a ban, i simply disagree with banning archaludon on a fundemental level because of the variety of special attackers we have
i’ve been playing lots of games to prepare for my tournament matches and archaludon has appeared in most of them, sometimes it puts in work but never to a backbreaking extent and me or my opponent normally tend to find ways to check it
I have 2 team that use Archaludon
https://pokepast.es/405277136a17ead0
https://pokepast.es/c5f3f777e546c07c
They are there please click on tham
https://pokepast.es/405277136a17ead0
https://pokepast.es/c5f3f777e546c07c
They are there please click on tham
This will be the last informal warning on the topic:
If there is ever a world where Drizzle or Damp Rock get banned, abusers will be brought back into OU. However, that is not what this thread is about and it needs to stop going off topic.
If you want to discuss Drizzle, Damp Rock, Raging Bolt, Barraskewda, etc., do so in the metagame discussion thread. Any further posts are just going to end up deleted and/or infracted.
If there is ever a world where Drizzle or Damp Rock get banned, abusers will be brought back into OU. However, that is not what this thread is about and it needs to stop going off topic.
Thanks for finally suspecting this monster Finch and Council. Finch your original post made many excellent points but there's a piece I disagree on, a piece many uninformed commenters are fixating on here and that's arch's so-called "middling speed." 85 base speed is actually CRAZY FAST for a Pokémon with 130 Def, 105 Atk, and 125 SpA. The most common sets run 52 or 56 Speed EVs, giving them a total of 219 or 220 Speed; this gets the jump most notably on uninvested Ghold and Lando but also hits several un or low invested targets such as Heatran, Tusk, Rotom-W, and just about every defensive Pokémon. It's no Weavile or Roaring Moon but vs just about any Pokémon that isn't highly offensive it for some reason still outspeeds. So I would say this isn't even a disadvantage Arch has, more an advantage. The speed maybe separates it from Box Legendaries but is only really a "downside" when using Box Legendaries as a frame of comparison
Such as?
Such as?
why? Or should we free Sneasler for needing terrain to be so stupid? Being archetype reliant is one thing with say trick room where it's highly limited in duration but for rain, where all you have to do to achieve Broken Arch is to send a Pelipper into battle, I don't see how this is a consideration
I received requirements yesterday, and it was my worst ladder session of all time. This tier really needs action, starting with Archaludon. (Kyurem was the main thing to kick out :/)
What's more, Rain, which was weak to Grassy MUs, which was, and is, a very common playstyle now have a great MU against it, simply bringing a kill when it switches onto the field thanks to Electro Shot and dual STAB Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, and even Body Press, shutting down steel mons, making Rain even more broken. Banning Archaludon would nerf Rain enough to just be a playstyle like "others".
Moreover, Tera exists. Yes, Tera. Common Teras like Fairy and Flying can grant him a sweep thanks to Electro Shot, etc., guaranteeing a crucial kill that would actually prevent Barraskweda from sweeping. My first examples are Waterpon, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake against Sun MU that is a difficult one even if Raging Bolt is another counterplay to this playstyle, Alomomola against Stall MU that is also a rough one (Archaludon can actually cook Clodsire with Eject Pack, Primarina being a great pair though). Archaludon has a broken synergy with Barraskweda in Rain (I don't think banning Rain (Drizzle) is a healthy option for the tier, but yes, this isn't the topic of this thread, even if it would actually make Archaludon more balanced) supporting Skweda sweep as I said by killing his checks and counterplays, and Skweda just cleans.
Finally, there are many arguments as to why we should ban Archaludon, but other people have already listed them. Few people are saying that Archaludon is only broken in Rain, but didn't we ban Sneasler because it was broken in Grassy Offense? I think so.
Based on what I listed and what others have said, I'll be voting for a BAN and strongly encourage others to do so because our tier needs immediate action.
I totally disagree with this point. First of all, Archaludon can easily switch onto the field. And when it does so, what? You switch to your special attacker when it can just attack and potentially KO? Even if it doesn't OHKO thanks to Assault Vest and Archaludon surely does? Well, I don't call this a counterplay. Yes, Archaludon has limited counterplays and nearly always brings a kill that can annoy Rain. Others said, "just bring Clodsire if you want to play bulky stuff and you're good, just put it Water Absorb it 6z rain!" (which is basically true, I agree, except if you play Prim Psychic nice and then GG, some Eject pack Archaludon are being around though and it does lure Clodsire actually). But well, it just restricts teambuilding while giving your opponent an opportunity to abuse the passivity of the said Clodsire. When you're not against Rain, it is sometimes completely useless, and this not being able to pivot is the main reason why it is only seen in Stall.
What's more, Rain, which was weak to Grassy MUs, which was, and is, a very common playstyle now have a great MU against it, simply bringing a kill when it switches onto the field thanks to Electro Shot and dual STAB Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, and even Body Press, shutting down steel mons, making Rain even more broken. Banning Archaludon would nerf Rain enough to just be a playstyle like "others".
Moreover, Tera exists. Yes, Tera. Common Teras like Fairy and Flying can grant him a sweep thanks to Electro Shot, etc., guaranteeing a crucial kill that would actually prevent Barraskweda from sweeping. My first examples are Waterpon, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake against Sun MU that is a difficult one even if Raging Bolt is another counterplay to this playstyle, Alomomola against Stall MU that is also a rough one (Archaludon can actually cook Clodsire with Eject Pack, Primarina being a great pair though). Archaludon has a broken synergy with Barraskweda in Rain (I don't think banning Rain (Drizzle) is a healthy option for the tier, but yes, this isn't the topic of this thread, even if it would actually make Archaludon more balanced) supporting Skweda sweep as I said by killing his checks and counterplays, and Skweda just cleans.
Finally, there are many arguments as to why we should ban Archaludon, but other people have already listed them. Few people are saying that Archaludon is only broken in Rain, but didn't we ban Sneasler because it was broken in Grassy Offense? I think so.
Based on what I listed and what others have said, I'll be voting for a BAN and strongly encourage others to do so because our tier needs immediate action.
This doesn’t really matter when there is almost no special attacker besifes a few that can actually threaten an OHKO on Arch, and none of them can actually switch in safely.
That is the fundamental issue with Archaludon. It is almost guaranteed to trade getting chipped to deal massive damage or get a kill. Its similar to Melmetal in its ability to trade, but with Melmetal, that can be minigated through a series of reliable checks like Corviknight, Slowbro, Ferro, Flame Body Tran, Scizor, Zapdos, etc. This is all due to the nature of DiB being a contact move that hits twice.
Archaludon is impossible to check defensively without Clodsire or Tera Ghost Blissey which are not splashable for most teams. It isn’t good to trade with Arch using Ting-Lu when you’re also tasked with checking Raging Bolt.
It contributes to the matchup fishy nature of the tier. Since Rain beats most other builds, teams resort to SD Low Kick Wogre or Stall to handle it, which loses to other builds. Kyurem isn’t nearly as bad of a presence as Arch because there is some counterplay, offensive or defensive. With Arch it is either sack two Pokemon to take it down, or run a Clodsire fat team with spike stacking.
Again my thoughts are back but I feel raging bolt is much more broken than archaludon because yes I like gambit but gambit kinda is hard Walled by dondozo while bolt is not but of course archaludon is good and I'm literally using a rest talk set though it does kinda get 2 shot by most special attacks that are super effective so yeah I just think it would not be banworthy. Av sets hard counters dondozo in rain because electro shot abut we have something called clodsire with amnesia of course archaludon itself is good because type combination plus stamina but of course it you don't have recovery it gets weared down over time which is the av set's biggest flaw
The only alternative I can think of if we don't want to ban weather or ban Archuladon outright is to ban the use of the move Body Press and/or Electro shot. Banning Electro shot might be the answer we're looking for as it keeps Archuladon from boosting its special barring the use of choice specs. This would weaken Archuladon with or without the rain but it would still be very strong with the Stamina+Body Press combo plus its naturally great stats and typing. It would open Archaludon to being checked by more specially bulky ghost types, especially those that don't mind Earthquake like Sinistcha. Electro shot being unique to Archuladon also means that banning its use would not cause the kind of collateral damage to the metagame that banning body press would. I think banning the use of body press is an entirely separate conversation that needs to happen, but we can save that one for another day.
Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Archaludon!
Archaludon is one of the newest additions to the metagame, surfacing as an Indigo Disk washed up on the shores of Paldea this past December! DLC2 shot out like a cannon, electrifying the metagame with meteoric implications. After a slow start, Archaludon's Stamina proved worthwhile, fortifying it as one of the most reliable bodies to apply consistent pressure on Rain teams. Dealing draconian damage as the cornerstone of the metagame's most flashy archetype, it should be no surprise that Archaludon is among the biggest powerhouses in SV OU!
Regarding the decision and process, the SV OU council has determined that Archaludon is worthy of a suspect testing. This suspect is the result of a council consensus to act on Archaludon; it would be an abuse of power to push through a quickban without consulting the public at this specific stage in the metagame, but a suspect test allows for the playerbase to determine Archaludon's fate.
While it is true that Archaludon received only limited support during the last tiering survey, the metagame has shifted a lot over the last three weeks. Rain teams featuring Archaludon saw a substantial uptick in usage and effectiveness while metagame adaptations have hardly slowed down Archaludon's dominance. We will get more into the specifics of Archaludon's presence later in the post, but the intention is to keep surveys regular without abusing their place in tiering. Having a survey every other week, for example, is an overapplication of the process. Finding a comfortable middleground where they happen every month or even every six weeks allows for us to regularly check-in on the metagame's focal topics while still giving us room to tier when needed before, during, or after survey periods.
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon also received a suspect test despite low survey scores (nearly identical to that of Archaludon) after optimal applications of it surfaced in the metagame only after an initial survey. Of course, Archaludon is nowhere near as blatantly broken as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, which received over 90% support to ban, but there has undoubtebly been a shift in the metagame and an outcry for some form of tiering action. This gives us the freedom to adapt our tiering process to a constantly adapting metagame while still letting the playerbase decide outcomes.
Regarding Archaludon's presence and suspect reasoning, Archaludon is a staple on Rain teams. You typically see it use a set featuring Electro Shot, a signature move that thrives in Rain. Electro Shot does not require a charging turn when it is Raining, deals damage reflecting the Special Attack boost the move gives, and comes off of a strong base power with the complimentary Electric type coverage. This paired with Draco Meteor and Flash Cannon allows for Archaludon to hit the vast majority of the metagame with special attacks alone. The combination of Stamina and Body Press allow for Archaludon to hit specific special walls like Blissey and Tyranitar or Steel types like Kingambit, Iron Treads, and Excadrill. Earthquake is also an option to hit these Pokemon aside from Blissey while also catching Clodsire, which is otherwise seen as the lone counter to Archaludon.
You frequently see Archaludon using Assault Vest, which helps bolster its otherwise lackluster special defense. This coupled with fantstic natural bulk on the physical end, a practical defensive typing, and Stamnia makes it very hard to take out. For reference, Archaludon is able to live Close Combat from Zamazenta, Draco Meteor from Choice Specs Kyurem, and multiple Earthquake from Gliscor all with its standard set before you account for it potentially exhausting a Tera. Add on to this the fact that it commonly utilizes Tera Fairy, which provides a near-perfect compliment to its Dragon/Steel typing, and you get a Pokemon that is incredibly challenge to kill quickly that is capable of snowballing out of control offensively. In addition, options such as Leftovers can provide direct health relief if players do not feel a need for Assault Vest, which you also can see with Grassy Terrain.
While Archaludon has lots going for it, it is by no means a perfect Pokemon. Archaludon is nowhere near broken outside of Rain, making it reliant on support to make Electro Shot variants thrive. This is beyond your normal support, too, as Pelipper is a lackluster Pokemon that is only used to set Rain after all. This forces Archaudon to only work in limited contexts which can, to a certain extent, be abused. Rain teams are only used so often and only allow for certain Pokemon to fit after all. With this in mind, Rain has been one of the most dominant styles when it has been used, destroying the ladder and tournament play. It has forced us to teambuild very differently, contributing to the metagame approaching numerous extremes as balances cannot withstand the oversaturation of threats. For reference, here is how effective Rain has been through the first chunk of the SPL (Smogon Premier League) season, which is seen as one of the best OU tournaments each year:
This is nowhere near the full story though. Pokemon that are this reliant on support can be productive, but they need to achieve a higher threshold of efficiency in a shorter window in order to prove worthwhile; this very much applies to Archaludon, who is at its best on Rain teams. These Rain teams can be beaten and we have seen people adapt to other facets of Rain, for example, with an uptick in Water Absorb Wellspring, Volcanion, and Clodsire for Barraskewda or the rise in other weathers within the metagame to disrupt Rain. However, not many of these adaptations aside from Clodsire have been able to account well for Archaludon, which continues to run rampant. Counterplay to Archaludon, which very much includes Clodsire, also can focus around other Electric immunities like Ruination or Whirlwind SDef Ting Lu, Iron Treads, faster Earth Power Landorus-T, or Sandy Shocks, who can all 1v1 Archaludon, but do not switch in safely, making them circumstantial checks if no Tera is involved in the exchange. You can see Blissey handle non-Body Press variants, SDef Skeledirge with the right Tera type stall out Archaludon if it times the sequence properly, or combinations of faster Pokemon applying offensive pressure minimizing Archaludon to just a few entries.
Overall, Archaludon is one of the scariest Pokemon to encounter in SV OU! It is able to withstand the vast majority of attacks while dealing strong, oftentimes boosted attacks that cover almost every possible Pokemon you can bring. It is incredibly reliant on Rain support, which is a limiting factor for any potential suspect, but Rain is at its peak right now. Special bulk is limited and the speed tier is middling, but Assault Vest and Stamina can help compensate for these shortcomings, allowing Archaludon to fire off numerous attacks more often than not. It will be interesting to see how the playerbase votes on Archaludon as it becomes the tenth suspect of the ninth generation!
- Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXE minimum games 80 50 80.2 49 80.4 48 80.6 47 80.8 46 81 45 81.2 44 81.4 43 81.6 42 81.8 41 82 40 82.2 39 82.4 38 82.6 37 82.8 36 83 35 83.2 34 83.4 33 83.6 32 83.8 31 84 30
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:
- You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUKU. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUKU Finch.
- Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
- We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
- The suspect being tested, Archaludon, will be allowed on the ladder.
- Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
- Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
- Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
- The suspect test will be lasting until Friday, February 16th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
- THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME AFTER THE RELEASE OF DLC2. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.
- No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Archaludon is banworthy or not;
- No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Archaludon vs other potential suspects;
- You are required to make respectful posts;
- You are required to read this thread before posting.
- Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
- Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
- Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
- You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
- Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
- Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
- This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
Nanulak
formerly PokefanKIV
Huh. I guess Sinistcha is a counter to Arch anyways, as it resists Electro Shot and is immune to Body Press. Just slap something cheesy on it and it can go right by Arch
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