np: SS UU Stage 6: Lucky Star (Jirachi BANNED & Chansey UNBANNED)

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This is really short and quick cuz i'm lazy but I feel like lycan and terrak should be voted on and mimi should be suspected
:lycanroc-dusk: :terrakion:
I believe that lycan and terrak should just be voted on. Lycan is the 4th fastest mon in the tier being able to kill 2 of the 3 with its priority and cc kills everything in the tier. With very little switchins like slowking, slowbro (as long as they don’t click crunch on switchin) and weezing (which takes like 40 from stone edge). Terrak is lycan off crack it cant hit common answers such as weez and slowking but those are 2 mons I definitely feel like these 2 should just be voted on.

:mimikyu:
Mimikyu needs a suspect just ban it, please. Mimikyu on its on is fine in fact it's quite weak the big problem comes in when it gets +2 and it's under webs with that mimi outspeed's and ko almost of the entire tier except for weez it cant kill and sylveon but that cant kill back. even without life orb, it can run boots which needs sd to do any real damage but once it gets sd its game over. It definitely think this needs a suspect but im hoping it leaves for sure. Of course, there are many other checks other than the common weez ex unaware quag, copper, escav but no one uses those yet but I'd definitely want a mimikyu suspect.
With Skarmory gone, I've seen Lycanroc now using Iron Head for G-Weezing. It needs CC and Stone Edge though, so if it runs Iron Head then it has to give up either Accelrock or Crunch or SD, and without Crunch then it can't do much at all to Palossand or Doublade. Without Iron Head, I don't think it's a major problem though - it may be one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier, but it's not that difficult to work around. Same goes for Terrakion - there are still things to keep it in check (most ghosts, especially Palossand). There's also plenty of scarfed threats that KO both of these that can be safe switch ins with the right predict (Flygon, for example, as long as you don't do a bad CC mispredict). Slowbro is also good for both of these, as Lycanroc Crunch only does about 50% to it, and Terrakion does less than 50% with Stone Edge unboosted.

Mimikyu I'm not sure on, but it also hasn't given me many issues. Usually G-Weezing can take boosted shadow claws fine and burn it, and Scyther hits through it with Dual Wingbeat. But maybe for other teams it can be more of a hassle.

Overall, I don't think anything really needs to be banned at the moment, but we won't really know until we get a few more days of the meta stabilizing itself, especially with Chansey re-added.
 
Personally I dont find mimikyu, lycanroc, terak to be broken. Sure, the departure of skarm and crawdaunt definitely boosted the viability of these pokemon, but they all have their checks and ways of killing them.
 
I feel pokemon that were reliant on skarmory to keep them in check like lycanroc, scyther, mamoswine barring flinches may become so much better, skarmory was the king of being a physical wall so with him being gone I feel some pokemon may push it to tight to being broken. But i guess time will tell
 

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor
idk why i did this but vrs are fun af to make since i can do a ton of hot takes. this isnt ranked alphabetically but by how good a mon is in a subrank btw.

Cheezy's Personal Viability Rankings

W Rank

040.png
Wigglytuff

S Rank

Lycanroc-dusk
Noivern

A+ Rank

Keldeo
Mienshao
Mimikyu
Rotom-Wash
Slowbro
Sylveon
Terrakion
Zarude

A Rank

113.png
Chansey
Cobalion
Doublade
Incineroar
Krookodile
Obstagoon
Roserade
Starmie
Weezing-Galar

A- Rank

Bisharp
Celebi
Heliolisk
Mamoswine
Palossand
Reuniclus
Rhyperior
Rotom-C
Scyther
Slowking

B+ Rank

Chandelure
Dragalge
Escavalier
Golurk
Grimmsnarl
Heracross
Marowak-Alola
Polteageist
Porygon-Z
Sharpedo

B Rank

Araquanid
Barraskewda
Bronzong
Copperajah
Gastrodon
526.png
Gigalith
Golisopod
Kingdra
Klefki
Pangoro
Seismitoad
Slowbro-Galar
Talonflame
Tentacruel
Virizion

B- Rank

Charizard
Darmanitan
Druddigon
Gardevoir
Indeedee
Lucario
Mantine
Milotic
871.png
Pincurchin
026-a.png
Raichu-Alola
Ribombee
Torkoal
Umbreon

C+ Rank

Arcanine
Barbaracle
Cloyster
Jellicent
Mudsdale
Porygon2
Quagsire
Shiftry
Tangela
Tsareena
Xatu

C Rank

Bewear
Centiskorch
Decidueye
Flygon
Froslass
Goodra
:haunter: Haunter
Salazzle
Slurpuff
Toxicroak

C- Rank

Drapion
Exploud
Linoone
272.png
Ludicolo
Ninetales
Snorlax
Steelix
Vileplume
571.png
Zoroark



This is mostly just speculation and me seeing how shifts affect the Pokemon as we've only had the meta changed for a day and a half (about less than a day if you count when ladder wasnt updated). Feel free to disagree or agree with anything here.

Here are some teams I've been using (I'm a shit builder tho)

https://pokepast.es/0bdfa7bac37e8ad2
https://pokepast.es/ad4a46a57d45292c
https://pokepast.es/2583e3f1180e6b50
 
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Can we add Keldeo to the suspect list?

Outside of Jellicent (who's actually pretty good atm actually) it has no real defensive counter play and the way you need to handle a Scarfed, SubCM or Specs Keldeo are all very different.

Storm Drain Gastrodon handles Scarf, but lets SubCm set up for free.

Sylveon checks the SubCM set but dies horribly to Specs.

Send out your Scarfer to revenge the Specs set? Gotcha it was actually a Scarf Keldeo and you just sacked a second Pokemon to it without even hurting it.

I think it's at least as bad as Terrak tbh.
 
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Can we add Keldeo to the suspect list?

Outside of Jellicent (who's actually pretty good atm actually) it has no real defensive counter play and the way you need to handle a Scarfed, SubCM or Specs Keldeo are all very different.

Storm Drain Gastrodon handles Scarf, but lets SubCm set up for free.

Sylveon checks the SubCM set but dies horribly to Specs.

Send out your Scarfer to revenge the Specs set? Gotcha it was actually a Scarf Keldeo and you just sacked a second Pokemon to it without even hurting it.

I think it's at least as bad as Terrak tbh.
Well once again I'm gonna have to disagree with what you said PlusC sorry :psycry:
Indeed I think this statement about Keldeo being suspect/ban worthy is a bit a "misinformation" and it's not a good thing for newcomers in the tier who are reading this thread. From a defensive point of view, Underused has 2 of the best answers to Keldeo which are Slowking and the brand new Slowbro. While Slowbro is a bit shakier that its cousin, it's still able to stomach 2 Choice Specs Hydro Pump from Keldeo from full. On the other hand, Slowking takes almost the same that Regenerator gives it in return. Also both Slowbro and Slowking can pressure Keldeo with either Psychic or Psyshock.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO


On the other hand, there is a couple of Pokemon which can be considered as offensive/defensive checks to Keldeo. Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow, Heliolisk, Noivern, Celebi, Starmie or Tentacruel and Rotom-Wash to a lesser extent can all bother Keldeo or handle a few hits from it.

I'll give my thoughts on the new drops and current metagame later in another post..
 
Can we add Keldeo to the suspect list?

Outside of Jellicent (who's actually pretty good atm actually) it has no real defensive counter play and the way you need to handle a Scarfed, SubCM or Specs Keldeo are all very different.

Storm Drain Gastrodon handles Scarf, but lets SubCm set up for free.

Sylveon checks the SubCM set but dies horribly to Specs.

Send out your Scarfer to revenge the Specs set? Gotcha it was actually a Scarf Keldeo and you just sacked a second Pokemon to it without even hurting it.

I think it's at least as bad as Terrak tbh.
I don't really agree with this sentiment, Keldeo has a lot more defensive and offensive counterplay than Terrakion for example. I don't fully understand the logic you have provided regarding Choice locked sets. If you have defensive counterplay to Specs Keldeo then you've automatically covered the weaker variant. You will more than likely find out very soon whether a Keldeo is Specs or Scarf once it fires off an attack unless you sack every low health target to it, have absolutely no pivot into Keldeo to run a sufficient calc, or they double out on every faster foe to bluff not being Scarf. If anything it would be harder to distinguish between a Boots and Scarf if the opponent attempted to bluff it (assuming hazards are kept off).


These can pretty much handle every variant of Keldeo outside of not appreciating a Toxic, which is just how Keldeo has adapted to punishing them with its limited movepool. Celebi only fears taking a Specs Icy Wind on the switch, as it can 2HKO, but it is still a solid pivot that can just Recover or KO it. The others are pretty self-explanatory as to why they take on Keldeo well outside of Toxic if they lack Natural Cure.


These have ways to lose to Keldeo but one of them with an offensive check is more than enough. You mentioned Sylveon, but a more SpD variant isn't uncommon, which can take Specs Hydro's from Keldeo relatively well. Noivern is a great response outside of fearing Icy Wind and loads of people have used it as a standalone response in some cases to success. Dragalge is also a great response if you EV it correctly to take hits from Keldeo.


These all threaten to revenge Keldeo, whether it be because they are faster or can use a Scarf. Ofc some of these depend on scenarios such as it not being Scarf Keldeo in Heliolisk's case, which is something you'd have to scout for. There are more but I haven't included everything.

Compared to Terrakion who's defensive counterplay is limited to about 3-4 Pokemon: Palossand, Slowbro, Doublade, there are a lot more things willing to pivot into Keldeo even if they can be crippled in some way. Most of these are also very easy to slot onto a team without it being a detriment, though ofc some are better than others. This response isn't to undermine Keldeo's influence on the tier because it's still considered an A+ threat even with all these things, but I don't find it to be near as pressing as other things the council has brought up.


I don't have a strong opinion on these right now. If I have a sturdy Fight resist and a Rock resist + Pokemon that can revenge them then I usually consider this sufficient enough counterplay to the Rock breakers, but I understand not everyone is going to have that same mindset. I've seen Iron Head Lyca but this just seems like a waste for one Pokemon that you can 2HKO or 3HKO with Edge. SD sets are a lot easier to handle than AoA imo, with them needing to find an opportunity to SD and dropping a coverage option too. I've never found Terrakion to be that big of an issue myself, but I get the controversy around it. Mimikyu is probably the main one that I find difficulty in dealing with sometimes, but I'd still say more time should be given in this new meta before calling for bans. When we reach this point I'd fully support just voting on all of them anyway given there are very mixed opinions on them.

With that out of the way I just wanted to highlight some things I've enjoyed using or have become a lot better after shifts:


Sylveon has become significantly better with Jirachi being banned and it's competition in Hatterene leaving. The defensive Steel-types that now handle it are slower, which means offensive sets can pressure them with Mystical Fire a lot easier. Bulkier variants are also great for handling stuff like Keldeo, Kingdra, Zarude, etc. Weezing-G is basically the only other Special Fairy it has to compete with now.


These three are pretty much the best defensive Steel-types once again, which were previously overshadowed because of Jirachi. AV Copper is a unit and is as difficult to pivot into. Bronzong is a better SR setter and while stuff like Zarude and Alowak is popular rn, it isn't like it can't cripple them on the switch. Escav does the same thing and is a great Zarude check with Megahorn.


This thing is kinda insane with how bulky it is. It survives so many things that it shouldn't and has a great typing for handling Celebi and the Rotom formes. Despite being slower than the musketeers, it has the bulk to stomach a hit from Keldeo and outstall non-Megahorn/SD Cobalion lol. It's very flexible with Choice Scarf, Band, 3Atks + recovery, and BU + Jungle Healing. Defo a great addition to the tier, curious to see whether it potentially becomes problematic for the tier.


Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

I've been enjoying this variant of Talonflame as of late with its Speed tier being so good and typing having a good amount of defensive utility. Flame Body can help punish stuff like Zarude, Cobalion, etc. but Gale Wings is usable despite being less useful imo. The status of choice is up to you but crippling stuff like Slowbro and Rhyperior with Toxic goes a long way.


Rhyperior is one of the premier SR users again from experience. I've been using a lot of Physically Defensive sets, which stomach hits from Lycanroc-D, Obstagoon, Alolan Marowak, etc. I def think this is a lot more valuable right now than wanting SpD, but it is still an option if you're in dire need of a Noiven pivot.


Sun feels pretty strong right now with Charizard nuking everything for Shiftry to clean. Torkoal makes a big difference in terms of role compression on these teams. I'm not sure how it will fair when Chansey is legal on the ladder, but I do think that in most cases you probably have a poor matchup against this.


I think this is a little overhyped right now but it is indeed a strong breaker. TR teams have felt rather flawed, with the ones I've faced anyways, in how easy it is to set up SR to wear this thing. It isn't impossible to play around TR turns either and put yourself in a position where you limit it going up again safely. Outside of TR I think it can be just as effective as a breaker but it is easy to take advantage of with its Speed tier. It would be wrong to say I don't take some defensive precautions against this thing between something like Incineroar or an itemless mon despite these flaws. I'd expect the hype around this to die down eventually to a realistic capacity, but rn everyone is just spamming it on ladder.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Some fun things I've been trying:
:chandelure:
Chandelure @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Hex
- Toxic
- Protect / Taunt

I get everyone on ladder is spamming Alola Wak, but I think Chandelure is just as scary, perhaps even more so thanks to the fact that it can run different items and is a lot faster even if it doesn't have the same brutal power off the bat. A number of trends benefit it such as the rise of Jirachi meaning an increase in the usage of slower steels like Rajah/Escavalier/Bronzong, all of which Chande murders while some of the pokemon suppressed by Jirachi such as Sylveon becoming better is also positive. Tyranitar leaving is obviously fantastic aswell, and while we get Chansey back there are more options for Chande to find a way around it than Tar. The fire immunity is also really nice vs sun fwiw.

:slowbro-galar:
Slowbro-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 29 Spe
- Future Sight
- Psychic
- Shell Side Arm
- Flamethrower

I wanted to try this after seeing how much work it was doing in RU tour games, and while I've only played a few games I've been reasonably impressed so far. I've been using AV with Psychic/Future Sight/Shell Side Arm/Flamethrower and it's been really nice as a Sylveon pivot (who is bonkers atm) as it allows for some different routes in teambuilding while supporting pokemon like our many Fighting types and Zarude in breaking through opposing teams. It also abuses the hell out of Weezing who is everywhere for Zarude which is always great. There might be some high IQ spread that does some nice things but I just wanted to get a few games on ladder so I went with the vanilla max HP/SpA spread. -Spe nature and 29 IVs always outspeeds Wak in TR which can be useful because it's all over the ladder and comes with the benefit of making physical Shell Side Arm a bit stronger, when this dies down or for tours I would probably use -Atk and some speed creep.

:zarude:
Zarude @ Choice Scarf / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Darkest Lariat
- Close Combat
- U-turn

Obviously not a sleeper pick like the two above might be, but I've been really impressed with this compared to how much I trashed it prior to dropping. Skarm rising was obviously great for it, but it's stats are just so good and it's deceptively strong which makes it tough to deal with unless running Weezing which can easily be U-Turned out of and abused by so many things, making it easy to support. The sets I've had the most joy with so far are Scarf and 4 atks boots, I'm sure there's other good stuff to use aswell but this is definitely looking like a top 10 mon in the metagame right now, even if there are so many things GF could've given it to make it better.

Scary stuff:
:lycanroc: :terrakion: :mimikyu:
I think Lycanroc and Terrakion are very borderline currently and should probably be where we focus our attention, they're both extremely worrisome from the teambuilder and in game. If pressed, I'd have to say I find Lycanroc scarier just due to it's more diverse options meaning there's no real way to say you're safe against it, and it's priority options allow it to cut down the list of would be revenge killers by quite a bit. This isn't to say Terrak isn't super hard to deal with, but I feel like it's simpler to account for what it can do and there is the option of using Palossand to shut it down nearly completely, although I'm not really a fan of the sandcastle at all. I haven't struggled with Mimikyu as much as I thought I would do, but the majority of teams I've made so far have included Cobalion and Zarude, so I might need to try and use some different builds to get a more educated opinion on that one.
 
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Well once again I'm gonna have to disagree with what you said PlusC sorry :psycry:
Indeed I think this statement about Keldeo being suspect/ban worthy is a bit a "misinformation" and it's not a good thing for newcomers in the tier who are reading this thread. From a defensive point of view, Underused has 2 of the best answers to Keldeo which are Slowking and the brand new Slowbro. While Slowbro is a bit shakier that its cousin, it's still able to stomach 2 Choice Specs Hydro Pump from Keldeo from full. On the other hand, Slowking takes almost the same that Regenerator gives it in return. Also both Slowbro and Slowking can pressure Keldeo with either Psychic or Psyshock.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO


On the other hand, there is a couple of Pokemon which can be considered as offensive/defensive checks to Keldeo. Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow, Heliolisk, Noivern, Celebi, Starmie or Tentacruel and Rotom-Wash to a lesser extent can all bother Keldeo or handle a few hits from it.

I'll give my thoughts on the new drops and current metagame later in another post..
Gonna have to agree with Moute here. Keldeo is without a doubt very good, and it’s definitely one of the best mons in the tier. But it’s not broken by any means. Sure, its damage output is very respectable, but like Moute said, it fails to grab any KOs on some of the best defensive walls in the tier, the Slow brothers. Faster mons or scarf mons can also pick off Keld fairly easily, such as Lycan and Noivern.

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo-Resolute: 320-377 (99 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo-Resolute: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo-Resolute: 398-470 (123.2 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo-Resolute: 384-456 (118.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zarude Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo-Resolute: 608-716 (188.2 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keldeo is without a doubt good, and a very common presence in the tier. But it is definitely not broken. Quite a few mons live hits from it and either OHKO or 2HKO it and threaten it out. It doesn’t really lack defensive counterplay, to be honest.
 
New-UU-Card.png

It's time to du-du-du-du-duel !


Newcomers in Underused

While it's not available yet on the ladder, I was able to test Chansey through tournaments on the UU room and while it's bulkier than Blissey it's also way more easy to wear down that Heavy-Duty Boots Blissey. I definitively think Chansey is going to be a good addition to the tier and to defensive builds while not being as nasty as we may think. Also I've seen some people running Heavy-Duty Boots Chansey and even tho I'm not a fan of it at all, I still think it has its niche. I've been using defensive support with Stealth Rock but Wish is definitively a good option too.


Uh.. I'm not gonna talk a lot about Kingdra because I trully think it's a meh Pokemon in the tier. Maybe in manual rains it has its niche but I don't think DD or CritDra has a real niche in Underused considering we have a lot of Pokemon which can handle hits from it.


Marowak-Alola is awful to deal with under Trick Room and can pressure almost any Pokemon within the tier. While we have lost a good TR Inducer (rip my dear Hatterene), we still have plenty of Pokemon to set-up it such as Slowbro, Slowking, Porygon2, Bronzong or Reuniclus. Outisde of Trick Room, Marowak-Alola struggles a bit more to pressure opponent's team, mainly because of its low speed but still, if it's able to come freely on the field, it's really tough to handle it. I've seen people using Poltergeist + Shadow Bone in order to punish some Marowak-Alola check like itemless Slowbro / Rotom-Wash and overall I still think it's super iffy to deal with this Pokémon. When it's on the field it's basically a 50/50 every time. Also Rock Head is probably the best ability to run on Alowak but Lightning Rod has its own advantages including being able to check effectively Rotom-Mow and non-Surf Heliolisk.


Like I said to Katy I firmly believe Slowbro and Slowking have their own advantages and while it's true that Slowbro handle to a better extent Terrakion, Mamoswine, Cobalion or Obstagoon, the same applies in the other way where Slowking is a much better answer to Keldeo, Noivern or Starmie. I think they can cohabit in the tier without any issue. Slowbro has also access to a great tool compared to Slowking : Body Press. Coupled with its amazing defense, it allows Slowbro to pressure Heliolisk, Zaurde or Obstagoon pretty hard since they can't come freely on it.


OMG.. I would never believed a few days ago that Zarude would be viable in Underused and actually really good within the tier. While the rise of Skarmory is definitively a bless for this Pokemon, I'm still amazed by how bulky it is and how hard it can hit. Like for example, Zarude is able to handle a Close Combat from Cobalion or Krookodile from full, that's kinda dumb..! On the other hand, I've been using quite a lot Choice Band Zarude and it's really hard to switch-into especially since it has the right tools to punish its checks. Close Combat dents super hard Steel-types like Cobalion while Rock Slide / Rock Tomb can punish Noivern and Talonflame. While Weezing-Galar is on the paper the best way to handle Zarude, it must scout a potential Iron Tail and it's overall easy for Zarude to pivot on it thanks to U-turn. I've also been using Heavy-Duty Boots 3 attacks Zarude alongside Synthesis/Jungle Healing and once again, I'm surprised that it's really nice. Great speed tier, great bulk.. yeah I think this Pokemon is going to be a pretty good staple in the tier.

Those who benefit from shifts


The ban of Jirachi and the rise of Fairy-types is definitively a bless for offensive Fairy-types. Twilight already talked about Choice Specs Sylveon which is really great at the moment but Gardevoir is in my opinion prety good too. Choice Scarf Gardevoir might not be the fastest Choice Scarf users in the tier but it provides a really good way to revenge kill some Pokemon such as non-Choice Scarf Zarude, Cobalion, non-Choice Scarf Terrakion/Mienshao, Obstagoon or Noivern. Like Jirachi it has access to Healing Wish but also Trace which is really nice to counter some Sun teams abusers like Shiftry. Mimikyu is also insanely good at the moment. Without Skarmory in the tier, it can really pressure a lot of Pokemon and doesn't have a lot of checks. Does it means it's too much for the tier ? Well I don't think so. We have a lot of Pokemon which can outspeed it and a lot of Volt-Switch / U-turn users. It's a top threat Pokemon but I don't think it should be banned. Last but not least, I tried a bit Bulk Up + 3 attacks Grimmsnarl (shoutout Donphantastic for talking about offensive Grimmsnarl on discord) and it's way better than before and can clutch some games if the opponent wasn't prepared to face this set.


Shiftry and Sun teams are once again in my sights. With the return of Torkoal and the rise of Tyranitar, Sun teams are once again really great and there isn't a lot of Pokemon which can handle Mixed Shiftry (Solar Blade / Knock Off / Heat Wave). I've been a Drought hater for a while now and unfortunately, I don't think it's going to change now.

The rise of Skarmory is obviously the biggest change in the tier as it was able to handle with ease a lot of Pokemon such as Bisharp, Mamoswine, Lycanroc-Dusk, Scyther etc..So we're going to need some time to see if new Pokemon/sets appear in order to deal with those threats.

Rock Musketeer & Super Doggo


Once again Terrakion and Lycanroc-Dusk are standing out as some of the best Pokemon in the tier and the most hard to deal with. In my opinion; LycanDusk is currently the most difficult of the two to deal with since it can pressure to such asn extent so much Pokemon that it's actually a bit dumb. Even max/max Slowbro is OHKOed by a +2 Crunch. This Pokemon can bypass almost any of its checks and it's actually super hard to play against it. I feel like Terrakion is a bit more manageable because it's not as versatile as LycanDusk so you know how to deal with it most of the time. Both of them are definitively better now that Skarmory is gone and I'd like to see if the metagame is going to be able to handle them. I also would like to know what's people thoughts on this two and especially super doggo LycanDusk.
 
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Notily

dirt rich
cool guys i've been using / seeing:

:heracross:
i've been seeing a lot of teams that use zarude as the check to the rotoms, which is a free volt into hera to start blowing things away. being a fighting type breaker that can get through slowbro is also real nice atm. having the option to spike is useful but i've been finding sd more reliable in the last slot due to slowbro.

:vileplume: + :incineroar: on sun
Vileplume @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam / Energy Ball / Giga Drain
- Sludge Wave
- Growth
- Sleep Powder / Synthesis / Strength Sap

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Flame Charge
- Swords Dance
vileplume's a cool pick on sun over shiftry as its able to keep keldeo in check more reliably, as well as opening up the dark slot for flame charge incin. sleep powder is really useful on fast paced HO like sun (when it hits) and LO boosted base 110 SpA hits pretty hard. synth is nice for staying healthy vs keld and abusing ppl trying to stall out sun turns. same thing for strength sap, i think synth is better but strength sap probably lets it beat some dumb shit it shouldn't be able to, idk. its speed tier isnt as good as shiftry's but its fast enough at +2 to outspeed the unboosted meta and it can eat a hit from most of the scarfers in the tier.

re: :lycanroc-dusk:
i agree that lycan stands out among the three as the most difficult to handle. the only real form of consistent counterplay is scarfers that resist rock / comfortably stomach an accelrock. defensively its counterplay is entirely dependent on what coverage its running for aoa, and pretty much non-existent if it ever grabs a boost.

that being said, it does have flaws. aoa lycan's reliance on LO for damage output makes it very susceptible to chip, especially if it clicks the wrong move on a forced switch. it's fragility means that it relies on teleport to find opportunities to break (when its not being used on offensive builds) or smart doubles. i think theres some similarities it has to sm terrak where you can make an argument that its presence is healthy (see the first point in this post) though im not sure if some of the arguments would apply in a meta with teleport.

while the constraints it forces on building are certainly restricting, i don't think that its quite to the extent that its problematic. we have a handful of scarfers that fit on a variety of structures and can comfortably revenge kill (krook / mienshao / keld / terrak / zarude / rotom-w). it's matchup vs bulky offense is definitely scary, but i think its possible to build BO teams that can force the pivots that want to bring in lycan to give something up in order to do so / retain momentum vs said pivots. i dont really know where i stand on it, would like to hear more ppl's thoughts on it.
 
re: The doggos and keldog:

I have never really had any issues with Keldeo at all. It's very good, yes, but I have never thought to myself that it was problematic or game-breaking. When it's scarfed, it lacks power and is easy to scout or predict. When it's spec'd it's very good, but there are plenty of switch in options if you can predict the correct move (or scout again). If it's Sub, it's more difficult to play against, but plenty of bulky water types exist to handle sub sets since it's less coverage overall.

Terrakion is a force to be reckoned with - but luckily there are plenty of things to actually reckon with it. It takes some prediction so many times it will be a 50/50, but Palossand and Slowbro are usually always a safe switch in, and then there are lots of good switch-ins with the right predicts (Weezing, Krookodile, etc.). Lycanroc is a bit more problematic because it has better coverage, specifically Crunch for Palossand/Slowbro, and access to Accelrock, but the strategy is mostly the same. It's not totally overpowering and overbearing, and doesn't compare to the levels of broken that other things have been banned for. But I will concede it is probably more problematic than anything else in the tier right now.

Overall, I don't think any of these (or Marowak) should be banned or even suspected right now. Nothing strikes me as "unhealthy" and I think we should give everything some more time to settle in.
 
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Gimmicky (but Good): Darmanitan
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Ah, Darmanitan. Darm is pretty much the definition of a nuke; its STAB, Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz rather effectively bodies anything that doesn't resist it, and with Choice Band it can get outright atomic. It also has U-turn for scouting, and can nail anything the resists both those moves with Earthquake or boosted Rock Slide. At present, its best set is probably the Scarf revenge killer, as it can effectively bop at least 2 mons per game without careful predictions from the opponent, and also because the other sets can struggle against the horde of faster mons without proper speed control (Sticky Web and/or paralysis). Regardless of which set you utilize, Darmanitan is a good UU mon. However, the latest recent drop gave UU Slowbro, aka the perfect Darm counter. Even with the power of Band, Darm's U-turn fails to 2HKO Bold Bro without a crit, and of course since it's U-turn, Darm can't actually follow up unless its whole team is dead (big whop since it's 2HKOed itself). So, why have I been rambling about this, you may ask? Well, the coming of Slowbro (as well as A. Wak to a lesser extent) inspired me to give another chance to a tech I had previously given up on.

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Darmanitan w/Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpD/252 Spe; Jolly Nature
-Flare Blitz
-U-turn
-Earthquake/Rock Slide
-Trick

As you may or may not remember, a couple of weeks ago I had to repeatedly battle MichaelVilla and his Trick-Scarf Darmanitan while testing out my Substitute Sharpedo tech. Inspired by my initial loss against this tech, I tried to run TrickDarm on both a Scarf and Band variant, but neither set saw much difference, so I had written it off. However, this newfound counter in BoldBro reminded me of how part of my initial idea with this set was to cripple its Kingly brother. It goes without saying that the main secret behind the Slow twins' success this gen is the combo of Regen + Teleport, allowing them to recover to insane degrees while also safely bringing it dangerous teammates. However, should either be tricked a choice item, that role would be inherently hampered; the Bro or King would have to choose between Teleporting and actually doing damage, turning it into a partial momentum sink for its team (unless you can bait Knock Off, which is still not ideal for a Psychic type). Trick-Scarf Darm cripples more than just Slowbro; its other major use, at least as conceived, was to screw over mons that might try to switch in on a predicted U-turn, namely Alolawak after SR chip, then smack them hard with your move of choice. ... Sorry.

So, I made a new team, went on the ladder- and I still didn't end up using Trick a lot of the time. I started to worry that maybe Trick was completely useless on Darm, but then I thought about it and realized why I wasn't using it. Having seen how Darm performs on a game-to-game basis, I came to understand the truth about Darm; namely, the fact that Darm almost exclusively clicks Blitz or U-turn in about 90% of scenarios. The whole appeal of Darm is its hit and run playstyle, unleashing Blitz to decimate 75% of mons and U-turn out of the 25% that can actually take Blitz, and in many scenarios those two moves will simply be more useful than anything else you could click. However, this realization ended up helping me realize why Trick on Darm could work: namely, that there isn't too much opportunity cost for opting for Trick. You still have the nuke, U-turn and your choice of terrific coverage in EQ or Rock Slide, which still smack most of what Darm can normally perform against; in many scenarios I haven't even needed to use that third attack. Of course, there are a few mons that will give you trouble compared to the standard set, as EQ can struggle against Noivern while Slide is limited against Terrakion, although this can obviously be patched with the right choice of teammate (I went EQ since my Sylveon could handle Noivern fairly easily).

As for Trick itself, what I did find in practice is that Trick on Darm is useful as an "In Case of Emergency" button, something you can fall back on if you really need to cripple a particular mon. Such as was the case for this scenario I found myself in, where my opponent's Reflect meant my Flare Blitz wouldn't OHKO Linoone on turn 26, leaving me vulnerable to a sweep after Belly Drum. Or at least, that's what would have happened normally, but-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1181384200
Sure, this may be a scenario you're unlikely to see in many games, but if your team is potentially vulnerable to boost-reliant sweepers TrickDarm can serve as a useful emergency option, especially since its speed with Scarf can let it trollingly lock the sweeper into its boosting move and U-turn on whatever comes in. And while I didn't have to use it this way too often, Choice-Trick is always a nice way to take of that problematic defensive mon that you struggle to break through. Trick is an admittedly niche option, but not one completely devoid of value; I mean, this team with TrickDarm did end up somehow getting me over 1400 ELO from under 1200, so clearly the move swap didn't cripple me too much.
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Krookodile w/Chople Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpD/252 Spe; Jolly Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Taunt
-Knock Off
-Earthquake

Darmanitan w/Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpD/252 Spe; Jolly Nature
-Flare Blitz
-U-turn
-Earthquake
-Trick

Slowbro w/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA; 0 Att IVs; Bold Nature
-Scald
-Psyshock
-Slack Off
-Teleport

Rotom-C w/Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe; 0 Att IVs; Timid Nature
-Thunder Wave
-Defog
-Volt Switch
-Leaf Storm

Cobalion w/Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpD/252 Spe; Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Iron Head
-Megahorn

Sylveon w/Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 SpD; 0 Att IVs; Calm Nature
-Wish
-Protect
-Heal Bell
-Hyper Voice


TL;DR: Trick on Darmanitan allows it to cripple Slowbro (and other defensive mons) and serve as an emergency measure to potentially dangerous mons who are reliant on their item, all without sacrificing its core ability to nuke things with Flare Blitz and pivot with U-turn. All credit goes to Showdown user MichaelVilla for first showing me what this tech could do.
 
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Going to lay out some thoughts about the new tier so far.

:lycanroc-dusk:
I sincerely think that this mon is busted out the behind and to me, it is more scary then terrak and far worse than mimikyu, and I really hope that we get rid of this thing as soon as possible. Of course, lycanroc was excellent before the month began, but I think it has become much better.

First of all, preparing for lycanroc has become much much harder. Before the shifts, it was a given that one had to fit a scarfer on, either jirachi/mienshao/keldeo/mowtom is most cases, which made revenging lycan much simpler, however, ive found that fitting on a scarfer is very difficult right now, especially now that jirachi is banned and mienshao and keldeo have suffered from shifts. The most common structure seen atm is something along the lines of slowbro/rhyperior/zarude/noivern/fairy check/filler, and mienshao and especially keld are just deadweight vs these teams, vern is everywhere and always paired with a slowbro/king so locked keld is awful, mienshao also struggles more vs these types of builds. Not only are the scarfers pretty bad, but there is just no room to fit them on; it is difficult to create a good team with a scarfer on it especially when we have no real steels and every slot is valuable. The only real reason to use these is to revenge lycan and ig vern, bc vern can revenge most of the tier anyway and is on every team essentially taking the role of the scarfer, just like pre dlc again basically.

Another big difference from pre shifts is that now lycan gets infitely more opportunites-it is easy to say that a mons coverage can destroy a team, but it is not so easy to actually go out and do it. Lycan has always had the coverage and excellent speed tier being higher than the musketeers and lisk to shred teams-the arcehtype i layed out before gets shredded by rock move/crunch/cc-but now, it is easier to do so. You dont have to run sucker for scarfrachi anymore, you dont need to worry about breaking skarm, palo usage is going down, the scarfers are going down, all of these trends benefit lycanrcoc tremendously. Also, Noivern is everywhere, and lycanroc is one of the best mons at taking advantage of a -2 noivern. I have played several games in the last two days where I literally cannot click draco lest i give lycan a free turn and even worse a free sd.

However, I think the one thing that for me pushes it over the edge is the potency of the SD set, which was not seen very much before the shifts, but is genuinely amazing right now and extremely, extremely hard to beat. As I mentioned before, vern is everywhere, and lycan gets free sds all over vern, SD doesn't need to worry about the scarfers anymore, and EVERYBODY DROPS to +2 lycan. Like, everybody. With all the teams running vern as speed control, you cant outspeed this thing and revenge it, your best hope is just to pivot around lo until it dies. I consitently ran into and used accelrock crunch cc sd, which i think is the best; the only thing really holidng it back is weezer, but weezer takes 40 from accelrock (!), and its not hard to chip down. CC is a roll on max bold rhyp, crunch is 62.5% ohko on max bold bro, coba gets blown away, hell, if you wanna run starmie to try and revenge this thing for some reason it dies from full with no bulk.

Ridiculously strong, difficult to revenge, got better with shifts as well as meta trends, tldr b-r-o-k-e-n

:terrakion:
I think that terrakion can be argued both ways, its definitely not crystal cut whether this thing is broken or not, I am leaning towards not broken but I think banning lycan and then looking into this is the best move.

:mimikyu:
I dont have a problem with this mon, i think it was much better before shifts, now that vern, zarude, rhyp have all surged I think this thing is kinda lame, just me but not too big of a fan definitely not deserving to be on the same tier as the rocks.

here are a few random things i have thoughts on

:salazzle:
This mon is very cool, definitely threatening, the speed tier is really nice and being able to have that good coverage+be able to nail rhyp with a toxic for a vern in the back is really nice. You absorb tspikes, revenge zarude, coba, sycther, celebi, rose, a bunch of other stuff, easily switch into coba and weezer, and can threaten a lot of teams with the dual stab, especially now that people have been running more bro than king.

:skuntank:
lol I think all the poisons are pretty good right now, we have no steels and being able to threaten the steels is really valuable, I think rose and dragalge are good as well, but I randomly used skuntank because I wanted something to absorb tspikes, threaten sylv, and pivot into zarude once or twice, and honestly this thing is super fun and lowkey viable. Dark/poison/fire coverage is ridiculous, and the typing is really useful to check stuff once or twice, I used np and it shreds common cores like slowbrother/weezer/zarude/rhyp, nails coba, etc, but you could probably use defog too. Better speed tier than I thought as well. More of a niche fun pick definitively dont bring this to a tour or something but I wanted to share him >:o

:kingdra:
Another fun mon, I was using rain dance kingdra dual dragon stab and it is alright, it is definitely much better on paper than in practice though unfortunately. if you can get a good opportunity, changes the pace of the game and flips it on its head so it is rewarding when you pull it off. I tried lo but the recoil adds up, dragon fang i dont think is strong enough though, but definitively pair it with something like volt coba to try to get it opportunites vs the slowtwins. I was using helmet volt coba to chip zarude into range of two dragon pulses and to bring in slowbro and it worked decently well. Tspike removal also mandatory it adds up way too quick, also 5 turns of rain feels like 3

:noivern:
Broken mon we have no vern checks besides nasty wish slyv Ive been using hurricane draco turn bc there are no flying resists but ig you could use flame for zong? idk I know people hate on cane vern but if you hit it is seriously annoying to deal with. Excellent mon, far and away the best mon in the tier not even close.

:zarude:
Zarude is very good, super bulky and excellent defensive typing so its on like every team, I always end up using boots uturn jungle healing dual stabs because I hate trying to check rotoms and krook etc taking hazards, really defeats the purpose of the awesome typing, but i understand that band can be really scary to switch into.
 
So I'm not 100% sure if this is heat or not, but I've been having success lately (albeit i'm sub 1300 on the ladder) with Corsola-Galar as a check to the likes of Zarude, Lycan-D, and Terrak. Between Strength Sap and Will-o-Wisp, G-orsola is pretty stable and is happy knowing none of these three carry Knock Off. It's not perfect, but I've paired it with a bulky Terrakion of my own (getting free attack boosts from knock off feels great), but Terrak is pretty well-known, so there's not much to say about that.

However, I've been wondering why Banded Mamo hasn't been showing up again. Is it just afraid of the current big threats? Or is it lurking in the shadows, stealing sweeps with Ice Shards?

What other things have folks been trying as checks for Zarude and other physical mons (Besides the slowbrothers lol)?
 
So I'm not 100% sure if this is heat or not, but I've been having success lately (albeit i'm sub 1300 on the ladder) with Corsola-Galar as a check to the likes of Zarude, Lycan-D, and Terrak. Between Strength Sap and Will-o-Wisp, G-orsola is pretty stable and is happy knowing none of these three carry Knock Off. It's not perfect, but I've paired it with a bulky Terrakion of my own (getting free attack boosts from knock off feels great), but Terrak is pretty well-known, so there's not much to say about that.

However, I've been wondering why Banded Mamo hasn't been showing up again. Is it just afraid of the current big threats? Or is it lurking in the shadows, stealing sweeps with Ice Shards?

What other things have folks been trying as checks for Zarude and other physical mons (Besides the slowbrothers lol)?
Weezing walls Zarude pretty heavily, and can deal good damage to it with any of its attacks. Zarude doesn't have anything for it.

Corsola-Galar still takes big damage from a +2 Lycanroc with Crunch. Chance to OHKO with chip damage even with max Defense: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 265-312 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO . Corsola checks Terrakion pretty well though.

Tangela might actually be the best Lycanroc check that I've seen atm. +2 Stone Edge still only deals ~ 55% to Tangela, and Tangela can KO it back. And when they switch Lycanroc out when you switch into it, then you can switch out afterwards to heal with regenerator. Even a gimmicky Fire Fang only does 60% damage at +2.
 
Get Lycanrock the fuck out of this tier. This thing is stupid as fuck.

Amazing speed tier.

Crazy strong priority.

Ridiculous ability that basically turns all physical moves into secondary stabs.

Great coverage.

I've found that in order to beat Lycan I have to basically run at least 3 mons that can beat it. Aka at least 1 scarf fighting type (I run 2), one of Colbur Golurk/Celebii. And even then unless I make some very strong predictions Lycan is guaranteed at least 1 mon everytime it comes in. More if the scarfer is dead and it SD's.

With virtually no counters (outside of the niche tangela). This thing is worse then Rachi ever was.

Fucking ban Lycanrock please!

Terrak is fine and Mimy is more then fine.
 
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