Metagame NP: RU Stage 8: Jam (Turn It Up)

[phantom]

I meant in the teambuilding perspective. That mon has never caused me to build or change my teams / sets / pokemon in any way; it seems entirely non-influential in that sense. The only way I've really been prepping for it is by having a Volt Switch sponge on every team, but whether or not Heliolisk exists, you still want that on your team regardless. It's role is unique like you said, but it doesn't cause a shift in the meta at all lol, unlike say Doublade and Cresselia would if/when they leave. Other Electrics are only slightly worse than it, it's not as if it outclasses them significantly or anything; it's exact niche won't be as easily filled, but the other offensive Electrics can step up accordingly.

 

[aoemica]

Just in case you guys didn't know no Pokemon are actually moving this month. Only quick rises/drops for now and since nothing was at 6.7% (for rises) or 1.7% (for drops) for usage in UU nothing happens. Next month we'll get the 3.4% shifts if we're lucky enough.

 

[spookysocialist]

As much fun as speculation is, I want to share my favorite underrated mon atm.

Credit to Sleepless for the spread and hex

You Jelly? (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
- Hex

So for a long time most people considered Jellicent outclassed by Slowking as a specially defensive water, and that's true. But Jellicent resists bug so it walls the almighty Pinsir. But recently I've been seeing a couple players use a stallbreaker Jelli with taunt and a lot of speed, and after seeing sleepless post a set with hex in the underrated sets thread, I tried it out and it's really awesome, one of the most underrated mons atm. Taunt + Wisp + Hex lets you shut down and out damage pretty much any troublesome wall, like Gastrodon, Mola, Aromatisse, Golbat (lol why do people use this), Registeel, even the almighty Cress. What sets it apart from something like Mismagius is that it's good special and decentish physical bulk, combined with recover means that it doesn't fold to hyper offense, and water absorb means it can safely switch into Mola without worrying about a scald burn.

Plus he looks like the pringles guy and that is always awesome.

Speed evs beat seismitoad and hitmontop.

 

[tehy]

As much fun as speculation is, I want to share my favorite underrated mon atm.

Credit to Sleepless for the spread and hex

You Jelly? (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
- Hex

So for a long time most people considered Jellicent outclassed by Slowking as a specially defensive water, and that's true. But Jellicent resists bug so it walls the almighty Pinsir. But recently I've been seeing a couple players use a stallbreaker Jelli with taunt and a lot of speed, and after seeing sleepless post a set with hex in the underrated sets thread, I tried it out and it's really awesome, one of the most underrated mons atm. Taunt + Wisp + Hex lets you shut down and out damage pretty much any troublesome wall, like Gastrodon, Mola, Aromatisse, Golbat (lol why do people use this), Registeel, even the almighty Cress. What sets it apart from something like Mismagius is that it's good special and decentish physical bulk, combined with recover means that it doesn't fold to hyper offense, and water absorb means it can safely switch into Mola without worrying about a scald burn.

Plus he looks like the pringles guy and that is always awesome.

To be honest, WoW + Taunt has always been Jellicent's best/only viable set, and it's definitely why i'd use it over Slowking (toxic sux, dual stab sux, wow + taunt kicks ass). the speed is interesting, although I do question what it's actually for ? creeping alomo is important but that looks like too much, and you certainly don't hit Golbat or even Cresselia. I actually think Phys.D might be better in this meta, as I'm not sure what SpD walls with moltres gone, especially since Reuniclus has Psyshock as well. (Meloetta, i guess.) i'd rather have a strong Escav and semi-strong durant stop, as well as a nice Emboar switch-in. I get that it's to make you bulky on both sides with WoW, but tbh so much of RU's specially offensive side just hits you super effectively regardless, so does that really help ?

Hex is really cool, i'm not sure if it's strictly better than Scald but i am leaning heavily as fuck towards it, scratch that, Hex > Scald. Scald does hit Emboar and Houndoom harder however, which is nice since they're what prevents you from spamming WoW all day (doomer can be scary af with a flash fire boost i bet).

For stall teams, jellicent does take care of some nice stuff and beats other stall; not giving a free switch-in to Clus is nice af too. I think i'll stick it on one of my teams at some point.

 

[Ares]

Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 8 HP / 144 Atk / 96 Def / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam

Just curious what exactly does your ev spread let you take?

 

[col49]

defense evs allow it to survive two [jolly] glalie double edges after consecutive sr switch-ins, with spdef being maximized in accordance to its primary role, being a spdef tank. honestly, it's more than possible to creep out of atk a bit more (i've found that yama essentially achieves all the ko's it wants w/112 atk evs @ adamant), either in speed for obvious reasons or def to reinforce its ability to pivot glalie, but i'll leave that to personal disgression.

 

[Toljik]

If Cress and Doublade leave, I think there will be a shift towards offensive Psychics + Pursuiters. Trick Room Reuniclus and Slowking stand out to me the most. It's not that Psychics had a problem with either of them, more that under Trick Room, you want to make the most of your 5 turns and not spend it trying to chip away at walls.

Another possibility is the rise of fast and moderately hard-hitting attackers, like the borderline-shitmon Cinccino. But I think the metagame is still too full of fatmons at the moment.

 

[DaKakz]

Since that Arikado dude said I should ask the question here, i'm doing it;

What do you guys think will be Flygon's best set in RU ? (that is if it did drop) would it be Scarf, Band or Defog ? Or maybe a new set custom set made to fit RU ?

 

[MrAldo]

The 3 sets seem pretty viable. An offensive defog seems like the best cause RU is lacking in effective hazard removers atm and flygon share many traits that made gligar so good and reliable (except for it not being a fighting type check and not being so horribly bulky) but having levitate, resistance and a pretty good typing offensive and defensively speaking would be really nice (A defensive set could be born in here, who knows)

Band set seems pretty good as a hard-hitter due to quite the unresisted STABs and momentum grabbing, choice scarf for being an annoyance and outspeeding like everything.

 

[Psynergy]

Let's be honest, we all want Flygon here because it gets Defog, the other things it can do are a bonus. And who doesn't want to play a tier that has Flygon?

Honestly though, speculation can only tell us so much but Flygon looks like a perfect fit here. On paper it doesn't look overwhelming at all, 80/100/80/80/80/100 stat distribution could almost look underwhelming (to put it in perspective, those stats are base Glalie with +20 Attack/Speed) if it was on something without the great movepool, typing and high powered STAB moves that Flygon gets. It's got some really cool moves for Band/Scarf sets especially with access to U-turn but I'm much more interested in seeing if a bulky/defensive Defog set could work here. Flygon looks like it'll be relatively versatile, definitely looking forward to seeing how the metagame reacts to it if/when it drops. Aside from the obvious effect it would have on hazard spam, of course.

 

[Froggyboy]

After Gligar left, hazard stacking has been rampant, so getting something that is immune to Spikes and resists Stealth Rock is something that would be appreciated in the tier. Of course, scarf and banded sets shouldn't be overlooked, but I can see it being a good mon in the tier, nothing broken though.
Same with Scrafty, a nice defensive mon with some sweeping potential, but nothing too crazy.
Noivern and Kingdra on the other hand I feel should be instabanned. Kingdra kills everything in Rain, and Noivern hits too hard with its blistering speed.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Offensive Flygon would probably be special to hit better Cobalion, Rhyperior and Steelix. Its main selling point over Tyrantrum, Druddigon and Noivern(which has less usage than Flygon btw) is the supereffective STAB on these three, might as well take full advantage of that. The difference of power on things without massive defense difference isn't really huge and most of the RU walls are physically defensive anyway, with Slowking and Meloetta being admittely big exceptions but nothing that can't be fixed with a simple Pursuit Trapper. It also has better coverage options on the special side, such as Flamethrower vs Fire Punch or Boomburst vs Return, and since in early stages ppl would likely expect Band, Specs would even have a lot of surprise factor. The only significant downside would be that your U-Turn stops doing respectable damage.

+1 252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 246-289 (67.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 229-271 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 204-241 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Flygon Earth Power vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Noivern reminds me a lot of Pidgeot; almost the same speed, both Hurricane spammers, Noivern can miss but has better typing(which means it can actually come in on stuff like Virizion or Mega Camerupt), STAB Draco Meteor and a great movepool.
Trevenant might also drop, though I'm uncertain about its actual abilities in this meta. Great Virizion counter though.
Kingdra is flat out broken, no contest lol.

Doublade and Cresselia leaving, though, looks like the biggest change about the meta. I can't think about a single offensive Pokémon that doesn't benefit having those out of the way except Houndoom and Mega Steelix. Abomasnow leaving is also pretty big, expecially for Flygon. Heliolisk leaving means more breathing room for Ground types, but little else.

Can't wait to spam Trick Band Medicham without blades and swan around :^)

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Offensive Flygon would probably be special to hit better Cobalion, Rhyperior and Steelix. Its main selling point over Tyrantrum, Druddigon and Noivern(which has less usage than Flygon btw) is the supereffective STAB on these three, might as well take full advantage of that. The difference of power on things without massive defense difference isn't really huge and most of the RU walls are physically defensive anyway, with Slowking and Meloetta being admittely big exceptions but nothing that can't be fixed with a simple Pursuit Trapper. It also has better coverage options on the special side, such as Flamethrower vs Fire Punch or Boomburst vs Return, and since in early stages ppl would likely expect Band, Specs would even have a lot of surprise factor. The only significant downside would be that your U-Turn stops doing respectable damage.

+1 252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 246-289 (67.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 229-271 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 204-241 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Flygon Earth Power vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Noivern reminds me a lot of Pidgeot; almost the same speed, both Hurricane spammers, Noivern can miss but has better typing(which means it can actually come in on stuff like Virizion or Mega Camerupt), STAB Draco Meteor and a great movepool.
Trevenant might also drop, though I'm uncertain about its actual abilities in this meta. Great Virizion counter though.
Kingdra is flat out broken, no contest lol.

Doublade and Cresselia leaving, though, looks like the biggest change about the meta. I can't think about a single offensive Pokémon that doesn't benefit having those out of the way except Houndoom and Mega Steelix. Abomasnow leaving is also pretty big, expecially for Flygon. Heliolisk leaving means more breathing room for Ground types, but little else.

Can't wait to spam Trick Band Medicham without blades and swan around :^)

Don't forget we might lose slurpuff and whimsicott! That would probably make scrafty broken

 

[Froggyboy]

I feel defensive Trevenant would be decent, but I still would rather run Gourgeist. But its offensive potential looks good. People often just look at its typing rather than its stats, which, defensively, are average at best. But then you see that 110 attack stat, with a nice psychical movepool and ability to get rid of burns on switch-out. It has a low 56 speed which can put in work in Trick Room, and banded doesn't really care about resists.

Here's a set I'll be sure to try.

Trevenant @ Choice Band
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer / Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw / Phantom Force
- Poison Jab / Rock Slide / Trick

Natural Cure because Frisk is meh and Harvest is useless without a berry. Choice Band for maximum attack power. EVs are to outspeed 84 Spe Abomasnow before mega evolving, max attack because hard hitting, and the rest is dumped into HP. Wood Hammer is the strongest STAB you have, but you can use Horn Leech to recover partial health per attack. Earthquake is needed to hit the Fire and Steel types in the tier, as well as Skuntank and Drapion for super effective damage. The third slot is your secondary STAB, Shadow Claw can be used to hit twice in 2 turns, while Phantom Force can be used for more base power and the ability to break Protect, though this begs Normal types to switch in, as well as Dark types to pursuit trap you. The final slot is mainly what you want. Poison Jab is for OHKOing Whimsicott, Abomasnow, and Shiftry, Rock Slide can hit Braviary and Golbat, and finally Trick can pass your band onto a wall, leaving it crippled for the rest of the match.


tl;dr ghost tree hits hard and would be cool addition to tier

EDIT: And RU guys, if all of these drops don't happen, just keep this discussion here and post a lol.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Flygon might be the only drop that isn't broken because it really doesn't do one thing well at all. Scrafty might be broken because slurpuff and whimsicott might move up and we already don't have many viable fairies.

No need to discuss kingdra it's gonna get quickbanned the moment it drops after about 1 hour.

 

[Froggyboy]

I can see Scrafty being fine in the tier, we still have lots of Fighting types in the tier, as well as a few viable Flying types. Plus it doesn't have many resistances, it only resists Dark, Ghost, Rock, and is immune to Psychic.

 

[Tymano]

I see most of the drops, outside of Kingdra and Noivern, being fine in the tier, but we will probably be losing snow, cress, whim, slur, Helio, and blade, which could easily make many of these broken, as well as make Glaile god of the tier.

Scrafty is an interesting case, especially since we will be losing slur, who is a good counter to it (unless it is carrying iron head or Pjab.) But we will be keeping Aroma, who is easily a really good defensive mon who can wall the hell out of scrafty.

Also,
| 59 | Hitmonchan | 2.825% | Finally this thing will leave the tier.

 

[mertyville]

Also,
| 59 | Hitmonchan | 2.825% | Finally this thing will leave the tier.

If somebody does a "Best moments of Generation 6 RU" after this generation is over, this should make it to the list.

 

[aVocado]

It's not exactly that weird really, every tier in every generation I played had Pokemon like Hitmonchan. DPP OU had Electivire which afaik never dropped from OU despite being shit, UU this gen has scrafty/flygon/trev which are also supposedly shit (although idk if they really are), and DPP UU had a couple that I can't remember off the top of my head. People are blowing Hitmonchan and Ambipom staying in the tier out of proportion, you have to keep in mind that the regular posters on Smogon and the regular ladder players are completely different in skill level. We're among the few that actually mostly know what they're doing, which might sound elitist but it's the truth.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

just gonna say ive been using togetic forever and our band of supporters is cheering bc everythin that might drop is togetic bait

 

[spookysocialist]

It's not exactly that weird really, every tier in every generation I played had Pokemon like Hitmonchan. DPP OU had Electivire which afaik never dropped from OU despite being shit, UU this gen has scrafty/flygon/trev which are also supposedly shit (although idk if they really are), and DPP UU had a couple that I can't remember off the top of my head. People are blowing Hitmonchan and Ambipom staying in the tier out of proportion, you have to keep in mind that the regular posters on Smogon and the regular ladder players are completely different in skill level. We're among the few that actually mostly know what they're doing, which might sound elitist but it's the truth.

Gen 4 ou also kept dusknoir and ninjask, which were even worse/more outclasses then evire was. And that was before we had blametruth around to artificially increase the usage of those mons so you can't even use that as an excuse. I think this gen ru is pretty good at using good mons and not using shit mons.

 

[col49]

yo, can we not use this thread as the upteenth excuse to shun ambipom / hitmonchan / w.e set you saw ladder player x use vs.you the other day? all it does is instigate pointless, repetitive cycles of non-discussion, when we could be spending the time to discuss matters of actual pertinence. ex: someone brings up hitmonchan leaving. did this pokemon have any significant impact on the tier? no. does this in any way impact the tier? for more than one reason (it still can technically be used, and it wasn't relevant in the first place), no. why bring this up? if you wanna fish for likes, do a ctc impersonation in a popular ou subforum thread, just stick to intelligent discussion here, yeah?

loath mini-modding, but when you're putting your faith in llamas 'n co. to keep things like this under wraps, i s'pose you're kinda bringing it upon yourself haha

 

[Kingler]

re: drops, I think that Flygon could work quite well as a semi-bulky offensive defogger (worded this poorly but w/e). Not sure if it would be able to pull off a bulky spread but checking threats such as Rhyperior and M-Steelix (more shaky at that but ehh) is always great, plus Flygon can pivot w/ U-turn and hit hard with its STABs. Choice Scarf should obviously be a cool set as it lets it revenge kill Cobalion as well as outspeeds most of the unboosted metagame, hitting hard with EQ or Outrage. CB should obviously be a great wallbreaker, making revenge killers such as Abomasnow a bit more relevant as that's another important target revenge-killed by it. However, at a glance, power seems to be a bit of an issue as an unboosted earthquake actually cannot 2HKO Doublade or Mega Steelix, which is pretty important as Flygon can't dispose of these 'mons effectively despite sponging their hits. I guess it serves as a secondary check to said threats.

Kingdra and Noivern look pretty broken, the former having DD/Rain Dance to pummel through the tier and the latter having crazy speed + attack options.

Trevenant is sorta hurt by the omnipresence of Houndoom, Emboar, and to an extent Durant I guess, but honestly it's hard to gauge how effectively it'll perform in the tier.

Scrafty looks pretty awesome, w/ STABs + iron head or pjab being annoying for most teams to face. It hits all the S ranks upto A ranks at least neutrally with its STABs, with defensive Whimsicott being outsped at +1 and slain by a poison jab. It also has the distinction of hitting common 'mons like Reuniclus, Doublade, and Cress for super effective damage, making most Fighting checks fall flat before it. Will play around w/ these threats to get a better opinion about them.

also the whole bashing bad 'mons in the tier is silly and only draws attention towards them :(

ugh kingler ur SO adorbs ( ͡°ᴥ ͡° ʋ)

kingler edit: LOL who is this ^ (BAN ME PLEASE)

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Been testing this out and it was actually decent So

share it?

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- X-scissor/Return
Compare and contrast with samorautt another physical water type. However kingler has a couple of tricks up it's claw that stand out. Agility makes it much less priority reliant and complements it's stupid power rather well. Speaking of power kingler can break through the plague of set up sweepers without too much trouble as shown here:252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery(if rocks are up and no spikes are up that's an 84.8% chance you're gonna 2hko it). Hyper cutter is actually rather useful to dodge annoying shits like hitmontop and you can still beat qwilfish 1 v. 1. Agility doubles speed while crabhammer is you're stab. Knock off fucks slowking and jellicent making them think twice about eating a crabhammer. The last move is basically picking you're counters:x-scissor hits bulky grass types for a loop while return offers a way to pop off weakened water types.

 

[P is For Penguin]

just gonna say ive been using togetic forever and our band of supporters is cheering bc everythin that might drop is togetic bait

togetic is nice, ive used it quite often