Yeah, Lilligant kind of disappeared because everyone was using Bouffalant to stop it. Now that the threat has died down, people have dropped Bouffalant in favor of Aggron, so Lilligant is very effective again. Will the cycle repeat itself?
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np: RU Stage 4 - Deck the Halls
- Thread starter Oglemi
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Just saying that since Hail got banned, Rain is now incredibly deadly now. Omastar and Ludicolo form an excellent combo with resisting priority that can take down one of them as well as weakening the checks of one for the other. Gorebyss and Kabutops are amazing in Rain as well as Qwilfish.
Yeah, the metagame is nice and stable. The only slightly annoying factor is Rain Dance, but I believe we can do a gen4 and ban Damp Rock, which would make it far easier to handle.
Shedinja can't be thrown onto any team: entire teams are built around it. The banning of Hail really was a godsend for Shedinja though. Support it well enough and it will serve you well.
Another Pokemon that deserves more attention is Raichu. Base 100 Speed is excellent in RU, but above all the ability to use Encore is fantastic. He can literally use Honchkrow (SubMoxie as set up bait, only really fearing switching in on Brave Bird, but that is generally predictable, Encore whatever move, and set up. People normally have to resort to Scarf users to deal with Raichu, and then can be picked off by Wynaut.
Also people, more love for the classic SD Absol! a simple SD, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Superpower ABSOLutely wrecks (excuse the awful pun). He really only fears Mach Punch from Hitmonlee/Chan, since a +2 LO Sucker Punch easily OHKOs scarfers like Primeape, Hitnmonlee. Give it a try! The only difficult thing is setting up, due to his frailty, but once again Wynaut can provide set up opportunities.
Also Omi your banner is really irritating when trying to post a Quick Reply :/
Shedinja can't be thrown onto any team: entire teams are built around it. The banning of Hail really was a godsend for Shedinja though. Support it well enough and it will serve you well.
Another Pokemon that deserves more attention is Raichu. Base 100 Speed is excellent in RU, but above all the ability to use Encore is fantastic. He can literally use Honchkrow (SubMoxie as set up bait, only really fearing switching in on Brave Bird, but that is generally predictable, Encore whatever move, and set up. People normally have to resort to Scarf users to deal with Raichu, and then can be picked off by Wynaut.
Also people, more love for the classic SD Absol! a simple SD, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Superpower ABSOLutely wrecks (excuse the awful pun). He really only fears Mach Punch from Hitmonlee/Chan, since a +2 LO Sucker Punch easily OHKOs scarfers like Primeape, Hitnmonlee. Give it a try! The only difficult thing is setting up, due to his frailty, but once again Wynaut can provide set up opportunities.
Also Omi your banner is really irritating when trying to post a Quick Reply :/
Why won't Honchkrow just hit it with Bravebird O.o even resisted coming from that STAB and attack stat combined with Chatot's pitiful defense stat it should hit quite hard. I can see it as a good strategy for revenging a sucker punch but that is about it.
chatot doesn't resist BB
even then, the point he's trying to get across is that Chatot can switch into 3/4 of SubMoxie Krows moves and set up, exactly like my Raichu example
even then, the point he's trying to get across is that Chatot can switch into 3/4 of SubMoxie Krows moves and set up, exactly like my Raichu example
I feel that the loss of Qwilfish is going to hurt the game a lot. Qwilfish was relied upon to take on a multitude of roles. Absorb Toxic Spikes, set up Spikes or Toxic Spikes of your own, neuter physical Attackers, check Fighting-types, cure cancer, create world peace, Qwilfish could do anything! In all seriousness though, the loss of Qwilfish is going to leave an unfillable void. I mean, who else can do all that Qwilfish can do? Roselia can get up Spikes and Toxic Spikes while absorbing Toxic Spikes, but it wishes it could check nearly as many Pokes as Qwilfish. Lets not even mention Garbador.
Krookodile too, is going to be incredibly difficult to replace. I mean, it is one of the best Ghost killers in the game. Having a Krookodile remove Rotom and crew from the game so Medicham or Hitmonlee can spam Hi Jump Kick, or Porygon-Z spam Tri Attack, is invaluable. Honchkrow can theoretically pick up the slack, but its better off sweeping on its own, not to mention Krookodile has STAB Earthquake too. While its influence on the metagame isn't as great as that of Qwilfish, Krookodile's presence will be sorely missed as well.
IMO, RU is balanced at the moment, but with the metagame still growing, there are still a ton of innovative sets on the horizon that may make or break (break can be interpreted as becoming broken or becoming useless) a Pokemon. Furthermore, who knows how things will shake up with Qwilfish and Krookodile, and perhaps even Honchkrow gone. The potential for a the metagame to be turned upside down with these changes is, I would think, enough reason to hold off on "is the metagame balanced or not" debates.
Krookodile too, is going to be incredibly difficult to replace. I mean, it is one of the best Ghost killers in the game. Having a Krookodile remove Rotom and crew from the game so Medicham or Hitmonlee can spam Hi Jump Kick, or Porygon-Z spam Tri Attack, is invaluable. Honchkrow can theoretically pick up the slack, but its better off sweeping on its own, not to mention Krookodile has STAB Earthquake too. While its influence on the metagame isn't as great as that of Qwilfish, Krookodile's presence will be sorely missed as well.
IMO, RU is balanced at the moment, but with the metagame still growing, there are still a ton of innovative sets on the horizon that may make or break (break can be interpreted as becoming broken or becoming useless) a Pokemon. Furthermore, who knows how things will shake up with Qwilfish and Krookodile, and perhaps even Honchkrow gone. The potential for a the metagame to be turned upside down with these changes is, I would think, enough reason to hold off on "is the metagame balanced or not" debates.
I mean, if we're gonna speculate about Qwilfish's void, hopefully Nidoqueen drops so it can do most of its defensive duties with better all around bulk and actual offensive movepool. Still, Toxic Spikes aren't as useful as Spikes, so that's gonna hurt a lot of teams. Yeah, I'm sure almost everyone agrees the metagame is balanced now (or at least really close to being balanced), so we don't have anything to complain about. If you're the type that likes to complain about a mon's brokenness, I guess you'll have to wait until Sigilyph drops or something.
There is that, but considering Honchkrow generally uses Sucker Punch to hit stuff that can outspeed it, And its speed leaves much to be desired (hell, Chatot itself outspeeds Honchkrow by about 20 Base Speed), it ends up having to use SP a lot to do damage without getting severely damaged or KOed by something that can outspeed it. Encore it into SP and voila, you've stopped Honchkrow from becoming a threat. you can then do any number of things with the Encore user or other Pokemon on your team, like setting up (something Chatot for example is adept at) or Burning or Paralyzing it. As well, Honchkrow has to switch out to get rid of the encore effect so that it can avoid becoming set-up bait and/or getting statused, effectively making it lose any Moxie boosts it may have accumulated. To top it all off, Encore can be used to stall Honchkrow out of Sucker Punch completely, effectively neutering it by negating its priority
Chatot is just an example (and a personal favorite of mine), but anything that outspeeds Honchkrow and has access to Encore can put a complete halt on Honchkrow's reign...
...wow, did i just make an NU pokemon seem useful? damn...
@GoldGeno: That only works only if you can outpredict the opponent. Predictions go both ways! You're assuming that Honchkrow doesn't have a substitute up or something: often, a Honchkrow with Substitute will simply Brave Bird knowing that something's going down. That means that you'll have to switch in on Substitute / Sucker Punch, which is a risky proposition. And even if I were so inclined to run an encore user, I think I'd prefer to run something like Cinccino or something generally more offensively capable than Chatot. Of course, no one should be stupid enough to waste Sucker Punch PP while you set up or do whatever.
I agree with Amarillo, yes Chatot can encore Sucker Punch but seeing as most Krow run sub that point is moot. In fact encore is quite a weak way to stop Honch when there are so many other options available(like every Rock type). I've been running a ScarfKrow the past little bit and its actually been not bad, it relies completely on surprise value but it seems to score a ko or two every match, and can revenge Rotom without a sub up with ease.
Also I have a question. What Feraligatr set is better, DD or SD? I've seen both used very well but when I use it I generally don't get good results
Also I have a question. What Feraligatr set is better, DD or SD? I've seen both used very well but when I use it I generally don't get good results
I've trying out various different teams and cores but one core is pasted in my mind as possibly the one of best. Lanturn + Gligar : These two kids can stop everything on the block (no Rotom-C's) and have fantastic type synergy with each other. Not only that but the two also have incredible functional synergy in that one is a special tank while the other is a physical tank. Gligar's one nightmare, status, is also easily cured by Heal Bell while Gligar takes on Ground types like a boss for Lanturn. Lanturn's Volt Switch is also an IMMENSE (i mean with size 72 font) boon. Being slow has never been more useful. Actually Lanturn hits just the right speed tier, slow enough to underspeed common attackers but fast enough to outspeed common walls. The only thing I've found giving this core trouble in the real sense without going into weird multi predictions and all is Rotom-C and Grass types with Ice moves like Tangrowth with HP Ice.
Swords Dance is light-years ahead of Dragon Dance when it comes to Feraligatr. Priority in Aqua Jet and the ridiculous power of +2 Waterfall generally contribute to this. I suppose you could argue that Samurott is better at it but Feraligatr's greater speed for roughly the same bulk is much more helpful than you'd think.
And Chatot, really? If you're going to use an Encore user against Honchkrow at least use Raichu since Poliwrath is just too slow. Cherub Agent has the right idea.
And Chatot, really? If you're going to use an Encore user against Honchkrow at least use Raichu since Poliwrath is just too slow. Cherub Agent has the right idea.
Honestly, packing an Encore user like Chatot (or hell, even Raichu) almost solely for the purpose of handling Honchkrow is just silly in my opinion, especially since those Encore users lose just as easily to mixkrow as the assorted Steel-types that also check Krow, such as Aggron and Magneton do. However, the Encore users don't really provide much either offensively or defensively in comparison, and are harder to fit on most teams regardless.
Anyways, this is honestly a lot like stage 2 (well, it essentially is exactly the same as stage 2 but with Hail and Smashpass gone) and the same things that were the top then are at the top now. Spikes offense is probably king, with so many good abusers like PZ, Gallade, and Moltres, while Rain is even more solid now than it was prior to the Snover ban, and is probably among the most threatening playstyles out there. Trick Room is still good and really anti meta, so you guys should all try that too!
Seems like it'll be a fun round!
Anyways, this is honestly a lot like stage 2 (well, it essentially is exactly the same as stage 2 but with Hail and Smashpass gone) and the same things that were the top then are at the top now. Spikes offense is probably king, with so many good abusers like PZ, Gallade, and Moltres, while Rain is even more solid now than it was prior to the Snover ban, and is probably among the most threatening playstyles out there. Trick Room is still good and really anti meta, so you guys should all try that too!
Seems like it'll be a fun round!
Agreeing with above poster! TR teams are very difficult to face because they are very bulky, they outspeed everyhting under TR, they hit incredibly hard and their TR set-upers are bulky as heck so your only option of stopping them from setting up is a faster Taunt.
TR can be really annoying, wihh all the CB Druddigon floating around, that things a beast and definitely the most deadly thing under TR that ive seen so far, and that level 1 troll smeargle is also really annoying if you dont have a taunt/multi hit move. Its fun to mess around with though
The thing is that as you said, stall is not the most viable playstyle in RU (not saying it is impossible but surely it is difficult) and both balanced and offensive teams tend to have problems with TR teams.
I think removing PorygonZ would make RU a better place so stall didn't have to risk being 6-0ed so routinely. Sharpedo stands out to me as another threat which is a cut above the rest, racking up Speed Boosts easily and destroying offensive teams.
Rain Dance IMO absolutely needs to be at least nerfed, Uxie has an incredibly easy time setting it up and then passes it onto a team of Swift Swimmers nearly as powerful as those in DPP OU. Needless to say RU doesn't have the same general level of bulk or walls to deal with it.
Rain Dance IMO absolutely needs to be at least nerfed, Uxie has an incredibly easy time setting it up and then passes it onto a team of Swift Swimmers nearly as powerful as those in DPP OU. Needless to say RU doesn't have the same general level of bulk or walls to deal with it.
ill admit it, i was the one using the level 1 smeargle and CB druddigon!
in all seriousness, i have found trick room to be incredibly effective in the current metagame, Choice Band druddigon is an excellent wallbreaker and trick room sweeper that can easily STEAMROLL 2-3 pokemon a match. if the opponent doesnt have the right counters to smeargle, smeargle can easily take down at least half a team with no support whatsoever, while a trick room sweeper comes in for free after smeargle faints and starts wreaking havoc.
on the other hand, smeargle in general is very underrated and should be used more. it is reminiscent of a mini, not as fast deoxys-s, and can provide unique support with its ability to learn almost every move (yeah, smeargle hates to chatter, it wont learn the move for me :(. ) smeargle is excellent at setting up hazards, trick room, and baton pass. all in all,smeargle is a very underrated threat in this metagame.
Trick Room's always been a really strong playstyle all the way back from round 2. TR is usually very effective, especially in lower tiers where all the sluggish powerhouses stay put. Especially if you look at the top threats that are cut above the rest--, they include Rain, Sun, Sharpedo, Honchkrow, and PorygonZ. Out of them, 3 get completely wrecked by Trick Room unless the TR player misplays / opponent outplays you really hard. Honch and PorygonZ don't like the fact that almost everything in TR is significantly harder to OHKO because everything invests in HP, while all major TR players like Aggron / Marowak ohkos them back without a problem. Of course, Honchkrow Sucker Punch is one of the more effective methods of revenge killing stuff still in TR.
Oh, also if you guys are gonna talk about packing sub-par mons like Encoring stuff in order to counter threats, Scarf Galvantula is pretty useful if you face a lot of rain / weather teams on the ladder, but you don't like to / too lazy to play legitimately against them. It outspeeds Modest Ludicolo in rain and lots of other Swift Swim mons, and Thunders for an OHKO (except for Ludicolo which gets wrecked by Bug Buzz). By extention, it outspeeds a lot of Chlorophyll mons (lots of chlorophyll mons bar sawsbuck is pretty slow) and OHKOs those grassers with Bug Buzz.
Oh, also if you guys are gonna talk about packing sub-par mons like Encoring stuff in order to counter threats, Scarf Galvantula is pretty useful if you face a lot of rain / weather teams on the ladder, but you don't like to / too lazy to play legitimately against them. It outspeeds Modest Ludicolo in rain and lots of other Swift Swim mons, and Thunders for an OHKO (except for Ludicolo which gets wrecked by Bug Buzz). By extention, it outspeeds a lot of Chlorophyll mons (lots of chlorophyll mons bar sawsbuck is pretty slow) and OHKOs those grassers with Bug Buzz.
I use Scarf Manectric, in a similar way. He forgos the Bug STAB for Overheat, Switcheroo and an Electric immunity. I'll try Galvantula though
A Bouffalant with some SpDef evs can handle rain teams fairly well, especially Ludicolo.
Another fun mon i've been using a lot lately is Golbat, with Super Fang and Brave Bird it can break through most tanks or weaken them to the point where they can be picked off by anything. So many times something like Tangrowth or Aggron switch in only to lose half of their health. On top of that its a solid answer to the fighting types in the tier like Hitmonlee and to a lesser extent Gallade. I seriously recommend trying him out
Another fun mon i've been using a lot lately is Golbat, with Super Fang and Brave Bird it can break through most tanks or weaken them to the point where they can be picked off by anything. So many times something like Tangrowth or Aggron switch in only to lose half of their health. On top of that its a solid answer to the fighting types in the tier like Hitmonlee and to a lesser extent Gallade. I seriously recommend trying him out
Yea I've fought a few rain teams and they are quite difficult to deal with. Note that I said 'difficult,' not 'impossible.' While rain teams are quite powerful and have a number of abusers such as Ludicolo, Omastar, and Kabutops, they aren't as broken as one might think. Fast scarfers such as the aforementioned Manectric and Galvantula deal with rain teams quite well, and in general, a well built team can defeat an opposing rain team. Honchkrow's Sucker Punch works pretty well against teams without Kabutops (FUCK AQUA JET), and things that can take a hit or two such as Poliwrath.
just saying, a core of Stunfisk, Poliwrath, and Sub+3 attacks Bouffalant (yes this is from my RMT) is a pretty antimeta, cockblocking 3 of the biggest offensive threats. (honchkrow, sharpedo, lilligant), while also giving defensive teams a run for their money with things such as encore, the core also hard counters things such as kabutops, and can easily get past rotom. (stunfisk walls it) Bouffalant and encore poliwrath can easily get past BU gallade. Add a rotom or cofagrigus into the mix, and you have something to handle sigilyph who will be moving down, its an excellent momentum gaining core with the four immuntines they have together. :D (6 with a ghost, 7 with rotom :DDDDD)
Guys what do you think of Uxie? It's one of the most used Pokemon in the tier, and easily the best supporter. How can you stop it from setting up? It has a really nice speed for RU allowing it to easily put up Stealth Rock/ set up weather before any common taunters can stop it.
I ran some calcs against a max/max+ defensive uxie and there is nothing in the tier that can guarantee an OHKO against it, the closest being CB Durant(which is less than 80% thanks to Hustle) and CB Crawdaunt(Which is to slow)
The max hp/max speed set is arguably more difficult to handle, sure a few extra things can stop it from setting up(Rock Gem Head Smash Archeops)(CB Bug bite Scyther) but anything that had a chance of taunting it, like Qwilfish and maybe Mandibuzz are rendered useless.
The only thing that stops Uxie from being broken in my mind are the lack of Taunt or recovery. If it had access to either of those I would definitely support a ban, but at this point I just want a discussion about ways to handle it and stop it from setting up so easily.
Also, a list off the top of my head of moves uxie can use
Steal Rock/Sunny day/Rain Dance/Trick Room/Toxic/Thunder Wave/Yawn/U-Turn/Trick/Reflect/Light Screen and thats without even getting into the SubCm set which is just a bitch late game.
Finally:
| 1 | Uxie | 1674 | 8.102% |
2 | Uxie | 994 | 44.634% | 950 | 51.199% |
3 | Uxie | 3490 | 16.889% | 3229 | 18.418% |
Thats Uxie's usage as a lead, in the 1200+ metagame and the standard metagame.
I ran some calcs against a max/max+ defensive uxie and there is nothing in the tier that can guarantee an OHKO against it, the closest being CB Durant(which is less than 80% thanks to Hustle) and CB Crawdaunt(Which is to slow)
The max hp/max speed set is arguably more difficult to handle, sure a few extra things can stop it from setting up(Rock Gem Head Smash Archeops)(CB Bug bite Scyther) but anything that had a chance of taunting it, like Qwilfish and maybe Mandibuzz are rendered useless.
The only thing that stops Uxie from being broken in my mind are the lack of Taunt or recovery. If it had access to either of those I would definitely support a ban, but at this point I just want a discussion about ways to handle it and stop it from setting up so easily.
Also, a list off the top of my head of moves uxie can use
Steal Rock/Sunny day/Rain Dance/Trick Room/Toxic/Thunder Wave/Yawn/U-Turn/Trick/Reflect/Light Screen and thats without even getting into the SubCm set which is just a bitch late game.
Finally:
| 1 | Uxie | 1674 | 8.102% |
2 | Uxie | 994 | 44.634% | 950 | 51.199% |
3 | Uxie | 3490 | 16.889% | 3229 | 18.418% |
Thats Uxie's usage as a lead, in the 1200+ metagame and the standard metagame.
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