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Oh, I'm looking at the usage statistics lists Marty posted on the forum, which show a combined usage for January and February, where they are above the cutoff. However, as the formula for drops next month is mostly based on March statistics, there could actually be some drops. Thank you for pointing this out!
With the shifts coming quite soon, felt like this needed to be addressed. Given the usage stats we've seen for awhile, there's a huge chance Talonflame is leaving the PU tier. Talking with most of the council members, Talonflame being on every other team is a big reason why Virizion was kept in the tier. With PU Open coming up, and us wanting the tier to be the best it can be, we're going to have to figure out what to do about Virizion.
We have a couple options:
1) Immediately quickban Virizion
2) Wait a bit to see if Virizion is as ridiculous as it seems, and then Suspect or hold a Council vote (depending on how people feel)
3) Something else, what? (if anyone has a better option)
We'd love feedback on this topic, what do you think should happen with Virizion? Thanks for reading!
I feel like the second option is the most suitable for the time being. Always felt like it was good to at least see some of the impact that a pokemon getting shifted up from the tier has on the meta. Mostly to see if anything arises that can somewhat fill in the niche left behind or if the niche is not able to be filled. Then of course if the niche can not be filled and Virizion is as ridiculous as it seems to be, than it can be suspected or voted on. I always preferred the wait and see approach for things that may not be 100% clear cut without some results being available but that is just a personal preference. Either way I support the councils decision whenever it may come, with Virizion being a bit of a enigma currently.
Time to do a complete U-turn on my stance about Virizion. But before I get to that, I would just like to say that Talonflame and Braviary will be leaving the tier. Since each month is weighted equally, by doing the math, Talonflame and Braviary will require... -3.16% and 3.76% usage respectively in NU in order to rise. So unless Braviary suddenly drops in viability in NU, let us treat the rises as fact.
As for the options that Specs outlined, all three options are logical. However, I believe that option 1 is the best course of action to take, and the main reason is timing. Let me evaluate each option and explain why a quickban is the way to go.
Immediately quickban Virizion. With 2 offensive Flying-type checks leaving the tier, Virizion no longer needs to run Stone Edge and can afford to run SD+ZHB or CM, making it even more dangerous than before. Mixed LO is still good at what it does, and usually I like running Synthesis over additional coverage so that Virizion stays longer in the field.
Wait a bit before holding a vote. I would actually agree with this, but the timing is not ideal. PU Open signups start on 28 March, and it will probably last for a week before closing on 4 April. After tier shifts, that gives us like what, 4 days, to evaluate the state of the new metagame before arriving at a decision that will, in all honesty, result in a Virizion ban. 4 days is also too small a sample size for it to be representative of the metagame. Since a ban is inevitable, why not quickban it now to save time? And while I personally don't participate in tournaments much, I can imagine the agony if people need to change their teams in the middle of a tournament due to tiering changes.
There is actually another option that I believe totally justifies a quickban, and that is using community surveys to gauge public sentiment. Though it feels sneaky at first glance since it bypasses the suspect testing process, the reasoning is very logical since the public gets to express their desire to ban a certain mon, thereby fulfilling the community engagement requirement. OU did it and banned Magearna and Cinderace, while NU did it to ban Mienshao. As such, precedents have already been established. However, time is needed to conduct and process survey results, which is not ideal in this situation since PU Open is starting and all.
I'll be making a post to explain why I'm strongly supporting a quickban on Virizion.
Last suspect I voted "Abstain" on Virizion. What does that mean? It's very simple. I deemed Virizion unhealthy for the tier, but since 99% of the competitive teams in the meta were using talonflame, I decided that using Virizion was always difficult for the viriz user and I thought it wouldn't get too much usage, since as a meta progresses, people stop using what requires too much predicting and settle on reliable stuff. I anticipated that whimsicott and exeguttor-alola, even though they are vastly different from Virizion, would be the go-to Grass types in PU: they are very straightforward and not frustrating like virizion which, not only has to always guess if talonflame is gonna switchin or not, but also has to connect stone edge. I don't really know if my reasoning was correct, but that's pretty much how I viewed virizion in a talonflame meta. A bit like Mesprit, true god in SMPU, but Skuntank being everywhere prevented it from doing what it wanted to do too easily. Not sure if it's a good example though.
Now, I'm totally convinced Virizion will be completely busted when Talonflame (and Vaporeon) rise by usage. Until then, I believed that Virizion was centralizing but that a combination of Weezing/Garbodor+Talonflame+Scarfer was enough to keep it in check decently and better, discourage people from using it: the Poisons only fear leafstorm, and talonflame only stone edge, and it is faster. That results in a big headache for the Virizion user, and most of the time, clicking a move at random hoping it is the good one. Vaporeon, although being bait for Virizion, can Wish during the turn viriz is switching in, and pass the wish to your poison, or talonflame or whimsicott for example, or scarf mesprit.
Now, I absolutely understand we could wait and see what happens in a meta without talonflame. But the meta has been explored quite well, and we know what the options are. We pretty much dont have viable defoggers. We lack fairy checks. This is made even worse by the departure of Sandslash alola, both a fairy resist and hazard remover. My guess is that, if the meta were balanced, Charizard could decently replace talonflame. It is slower, but has decent spdef bulk and can check Ribombee and Whimsicott, and handle toxicroak, like Talonflame did. It will definitely be significantly worse than Talonflame without its speed. But it doesn't check Virizion. It's actually even worse. Where talonflame can switchin and force out virizion unless the latter clicks stone edge, and doesn't let virizion switchin, Charizard is the exact opposite: it can't switchin on Virizion, and lets Virizion switchin, since roost, defog and even flamethrower give it opportunities to get on the field.
Well, too bad for zard then, we'll build teams without an utility bird and put more virizion checks elsewhere. But, as far as I'm concerned, this won't be possible. I mean, nothing can switchin reliably on virizion in the first place: so far it avoided the banhammer because we had just enough offensive pressure to check it, and most notably, Talonflame's speed and splashability. Losing it is in my opinion dreadful for the PU meta, and I personally have no interest in playing it anymore if checking Virizion is such a nightmare. Losing Vaporeon is also terrible, passing Wishes to soft Virizion checks like weezing was very useful.
I think Virizion did deserve a ban last suspect anyway and that's why I didn't vote "Do not ban" but "Abstain" instead, the amount of mindgames vs talonflame with stone edge it forced was unhealthy, but it was also very frustrating for the viriz user, and Virizion didn't just destroy teams like that. Now I fear its job will be very easy. If that's not how you anticipate a metagame without talonflame, prove me wrong.
The PU open starting very very soon is the reason why the council proposed the idea of quickbanning. I think it's the right path to take, but it's also my personal opinion: I just have gotten tired of building with virizion in mind, and I'm convinced it's just going to be frustrating as hell without Talonflame. I am (and the rest of the council is) open to any constructive opinion different from mine and will be reading your posts about Virizion.
Oh, how funny it is how one’s opinions can take such a 180 in the span of a day...
Honestly, I believe that the best option as of now is to quickban Virizion. I think we can all agree that a big reason most people voted DNB was because everyone and their mother ran Talonflame in their teams, and that there were just enough checks to deal with Viriz. Now, with that very mon rising...
Like what Jirachirite stated, we’ll only have four days to analyze the meta after tier shifts before the PU Open begins. Is that enough time to judge Virizion of its broken-ness? Simple answer: nope.
Oh, and this isn’t even considering the effect of a Talon-less meta would have on our favorite deer. People would start running more Zard, yes... except that Zard cannot outrun Virizin any proportion except with some nice tech like Scarf. And we all know how much of a ‘check’ Charizard is to Virizion.
Losing Braviary would also be a pretty big hit, as that was one of the few scarfers that could reliably beat Viriz, providing that it switched into anything but Stone Edge. And I don’t think I need to say that losing all viable Hail mons would lift a great burden off of Virizion’s shoulders.
Oh, and Virizion can start running Zen Headbutt without Talon’s omnipresence to hit Weezing and Garbodor, which are some of the more reliable Virizion checks. Need I say more?
TLDR: Following the shifts, Virizion has pretty much lost all of its checks and nothing can truly wall it anymore. Quickban the deer.
Virizion only barely survived the suspect test (by sentiment at least) because it had just enough checks to be a very powerful, but not overwhelming presence.
Now we're losing half of those checks. I say quickban and consider a suspect re-testing later, depending on future tier shifts.
Virizion only barely survived the suspect test (by sentiment at least) because it had just enough checks to be a very powerful, but not overwhelming presence.
Now we're losing half of those checks. I say quickban and consider a suspect re-testing later, depending on future tier shifts.
Of the possible/likely Pokémon leaving the tier only one of them could be considered a check to Virizion(barring hail teams I suppose), saying it’s losing half its checks seems a little sensationalistic.
Obviously Talonflame leaving is an important aspect to Virizion in the tier but is that single mon really enough to push it from being voted to be kept in the tier to an immediate quickban?
Obviously Talonflame leaving is an important aspect to Virizion in the tier but is that single mon really enough to push it from being voted to be kept in the tier to an immediate quickban?
It’s not just Talonflame. PU Open signups are happening very soon, and so are the shifts. To put it simply, these two colliding is absolutely not a good thing, as that means that Viriz could very possibly become a broken threat, and we could see a radical shift in the meta following that.
To be safe, quickbanning Virizion is the safest choice right now. After the tournament ends, PU could possibly retest it, but the chances of that happening are slim, to say the least.
I already complained about this on Discord.. but i'm strongly opposed to making decisions to ban mons in advance.
We just do not know what will the metagame be like. We don't know what exactly will drop, we don't know about every mon that will rise and we definitely don't know what mons and what sets will be used after the shifts. You are guessing all that, guessing how Virizion will adapt, and justifying a quickban with speculation and theorymonning. I even heard an argument that the suspect test ended the way it did because of Talonflame and that's why Virizion should be banned when Talon leaves! That's just not how bans are supposed to happen. Banning stuff from metagames that don't even exist yet.. it's ridiculous that this is even considered! I would say nothing if this disccussion occured after the shifts, if it was as bad as is expected and if it was banned three days later.. however in this thread you are discussing it as if the shifts already happened - but they have not!
And what's the deal with PU Open starting? Is the meta locked for the remainder of the tournament or something? I trust the players' ability to handle the workload of having to build (= get passed) three extra teams in two weeks..
I would not be too quick to deem all this theorymonning completely unrealistic, since as Ktütverde mentioned we already have 3 months to explore the Jan-Mar 2021 metagame and thus have a pretty good grasp of the meta already. And I believe given the data, we actually do have an idea of what will rise or drop.
The 4 hail mons and Talonflame require, rounded up, 0% usage in March in NU to rise. Vaporeon need 0.75%. Braviary need 3.76% usage and had 7.929% usage in February, so it will likely rise too.
Only Inteleon have a slim chance of dropping should its March usage hit 4.28% or less, and it will likely be broken here anyway.
I do empathise with Skipkan that quickbanning Virizion in advance would be unfair since tier shifts have yet to happen. However, whether the quickban happen simultaneously with the tier shifts or a few days later, in my opinion, will not matter much anyway because assessing the state of the new metagame in a few days is just as inaccurate. So why not we extend this time window for the playerbase to have a better idea of what the post-shifts metagame may look like? Though it is still not ideal, I do have a few suggestions that could help to tackle this issue.
Organise room tours for the remaining 5 days before tier shifts. These room tours should prohibit the use of the aforementioned mons that will most definitely rise to NU. Perhaps the moderators or whoever present can conduct the tours three times or more daily to accommodate everyone living in different time zones.
If the suggestion above is too much of a hassle, simply battle with your friends and apply the conditions mentioned above.
I already complained about this on Discord.. but i'm strongly opposed to making decisions to ban mons in advance.
We just do not know what will the metagame be like. We don't know what exactly will drop, we don't know about every mon that will rise and we definitely don't know what mons and what sets will be used after the shifts. You are guessing all that, guessing how Virizion will adapt, and justifying a quickban with speculation and theorymonning. I even heard an argument that the suspect test ended the way it did because of Talonflame and that's why Virizion should be banned when Talon leaves! That's just not how bans are supposed to happen. Banning stuff from metagames that don't even exist yet.. it's ridiculous that this is even considered! I would say nothing if this disccussion occured after the shifts, if it was as bad as is expected and if it was banned three days later.. however in this thread you are discussing it as if the shifts already happened - but they have not!
And what's the deal with PU Open starting? Is the meta locked for the remainder of the tournament or something? I trust the players' ability to handle the workload of having to build (= get passed) three extra teams in two weeks..
You must have misunderstood something, we are absolutely not banning anything in advance of the shift. We are simply discussing, based on what the tier in all likelihood will look like according to the previous months of usage stats, if a council vote would be a reasonable course of action right after the shift has occurred. Given the fact that PU Open starting plays a large role in why we want to act swiftly - if deemed necessary - it seemed more reasonable to announce our intentions well in advance instead of trying to figure out if we should ban Virizion within the span of 4 days while also ensuring that there is public consent for this. If something surprising happens, i.e. we get Celebi, of course this would be a cause for a reassessment and in fact I would be very hesitant to take immediate action if this were the case. As it stands, however, the likely scenario and its consequences are as follows:
Talonflame leaves. While some people may question how it could be that one Pokemon makes the difference between a threat being healthy or being broken, it is really not that uncommon for one rise to completely change the shape of the meta, especially when it is #1 in usage. Why Talonflame is so essential in gluing teams together has already been explored in more detail by Ktütverde, so I will not go too in-depth with this. Suffice to say that as far as teambuilding goes, the meta is in a precarious state and solid teams - that is to say, teams that are capable of consistently getting "winnable" matchups against all or at least most significant threats/cores/etc - are very difficult to build without relying upon a limited set of "glues", of which Talonflame is the best and most consistent. From my experience, building a standard offense or balance team without Talonflame is very difficult without conceding a number of weaknesses and leads to a very undesirable metagame if action is not taken.
Vaporeon leaves. Ktut has also gone into this point but to reiterate, Vaporeon is another one of those "glues" that makes consistent teambuilding feasible in the tier. While it does not check Virizion, it keeps certain other checks healthy (Garbodor and Weezing come to mind as great partners) and generally enables balance cores that are otherwise liable to fold to the great amount of hard-to-check offensive threats that roam the tier.
Braviary and a bunch of Hail-related Pokemon leave, which is pretty minor in terms of impact on the metagame as far as I can tell so whatever.
In terms of drops, the most likely candidate based on previous months is Inteleon, which - pardon the "theorymonning" - is very unlikely to even be manageable in the tier as it shreds offense with its combination of speed, power, and coverage and also does a number to balance in Vaporeon's absence. Even if it stays, it obviously does not check Virizion and at most could help offense in dealing with it by forcing Virizion to switch into an Ice Beam or whatever. The other most likely candidates - Araquanid and Goodra - are neither very likely to drop nor likely to contribute positively to the meta as they cannot check Virizion and in turn are hard to check themselves. (As a side note, all of Virizion, Inteleon, and Goodra were banned in earlier stages of SS RU in a metagame that looked a lot like our hypothetical April metagame, so my speculations are not even that speculative).
If things go roughly according to what we can reasonably expect, the consequence is that the tier is left in an unhealthy state where conceding massive weaknesses in the teambuilder fully becomes the default - we can simply conclude this based on our experiences with the current meta. Naturally for the sake of ideal tiering policy we would usually perhaps wait a few weeks before drawing any definitive conclusions, but ideal tiering policy is not always helpful in nonideal tiering circumstances. Letting the metagame exist in such a precarious state during the one official individual tournament to feature PU is a waste when there is an easy "fix" available, especially considering the fact that we already did a suspect test with close results and the fact that several people who opposed a ban have expressed that they would change their minds in the event of a Talonflame rise.
To be clear, the reason Open is so important in our decisions to do a council vote on Virizion is the health and stability of the meta during the tournament rather than the fact that having to build for a pre-Virizion and a post-Virizion metagame is annoying. If there are good reasons to believe Virizion might actually be fine even if the shift goes according to our expectations, those opposing a council vote should explain why that is the case with substantive reasoning. This is exactly why we ask what to do regarding Virizion now rather than in a week, so that there is actually enough time to discuss this.
As a final note by the way, I should emphasize that I'm not speaking for the whole council or anything as there are people on council who I think are pretty staunchly anti-ban and others of whom I don't know their current stance, so council vote =/= guaranteed ban.
Hello there! The meta has finally settled down into a stable state, with there will be no major shifts until the month of April. I would like to take this lull in the metagame to highlight an important, but often overlooked, part of team building: the bulky setup sweeper, also occasionally known as a bulky wincon or the "matchup fish" by some particularly salty ladder players.
A bulky setup sweeper usually has a boosting move or two that increases the user's bulk (such as Bulk Up or Calm Mind), a powerful STAB that benefits from boosting (such as Power Trip or Stored Power, although others such as Moonblast are quite powerful and lack immunities), and some form of recovery to negate possible chip damage or status acquired (Rest or Recover are good examples). Often, these bulky setup sweepers invest all of their EVs into their bulk, not unlike defensive Pokemon, but usually in the stats they will not be boosting. For example, a Calm Mind bulky setup sweeper will invest fully in physical bulk, and a Bulk Up bulky setup sweeper will invest all of their EVs into special bulk. They usually don't invest in any other stat unless they need to hit crucial benchmarks, such as a few spare Speed EVs to creep something or some EVs in the stat they are boosting to survive important hits before boosting. Often, these Pokemon and teams built around them are made for the endgame, where many of the Pokemon's checks have been weakened or removed and it can sweep unopposed.
In a metagame where balance is a popular style, like the current edition of PU, bulky setup sweepers will naturally thrive due to the opportunities an opposing team's defensive core gives them, as well as their great matchups against top tier wallbreakers. As such, every team must be prepared for a bulky setup sweeper. Fortunately, there are many ways to do that currently. Taunt is a great move capable of shutting down most bulky setup sweepers. Phazing, while not an option in the endgame, is a solid option to deter setup attempts, and combined with hazards and smart play, can overwhelm the bulky setup sweeper. Pyukumuku, while rare and only found on stall teams, is an amazing stop gap to almost all of them, as Unaware means it can ignore the boosts gained from a bulky setup sweeper and fight back by either PP stalling the foe or forcing it to recover. And more niche options such as Leech Seed exist to pester these Pokemon. However, notice how I said "almost" and "most". This is because the bulky setup sweepers are capable of adapting to all counterplay depending on what Pokemon it is. Some of them don't care about Taunt, while others are immune to phazing via their typing or ability, while others still can boost their way past Pyukumuku.
The point of this post is not to just talk about bulky setup sweepers, but to specifically point out each one I think is viable (viable is key here; something like Curse RestTalk Lickilicky is an example of a bulky setup sweeper, but most people would agree that it's not viable) and how they differ from each other. Personally, I think that most balance teams should run a win condition of some sort, and that bulky setup sweepers are the easiest way of achieving this. However, many balance teams can succeed by running a more offensive win condition, such as Quiver Dance Ribombee or Shell Smash Omastar. A key to teambuilding is not to fall into the trap that you absolutely need something. There are many options when building currently, and by thinking that you need something, you will automatically be constraining yourself. Take all of what I say as suggestions, not fact.
PU by usage:
Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Rock Blast
Quick note: what I say for Regirock also applies to all other BP + defense boosting move sweepers, since they all function similarly. The only exception is Cofagrigus, who I will talk about later in the post.
While Regirock is not often seen running its Iron Defense Body Press set, it's a solid threat due to Regirock's already high physical defense and solid all-around bulk. This means it can opt for a specially defensive spread without losing out on Body Press' damage output. It also benefits from an unpredictability factor, which means you can often get in an ID or two before your opponent can properly respond. Rock Blast is an interesting alternative over Sleep Talk, as Ghost-types wall this set indefinitely. However, this means Regirock is much more passive while sleeping and susceptible to being setup fodder for a powerful special attacking Pokemon when asleep.
Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set is mildly uncommon, so it may come to a surprise that this set even exists. However, I've slowly seen more representation of this set both on ladder and in room tours, which lead to me making it my submission for the current edition of Next Best Thing. Aromatisse is a particularly good user of the bulky Calm Mind set for two reasons. The first is that Aroma Veil means it cannot be Taunted or Encored to impede a sweep, common defensive counterplay to bulky setups sweepers. The other is its pure Fairy typing, giving it a solid amount of benefits both offensively and defensively. Offensively, Fairy lacks a type immunity, so gaining STAB on an already powerful move is a massive boon. Defensively, it is only weak to Poison and Steel, two types that can easily be worn down by its teammates to create a clear path for Aromatisse to sweep, and it also gives it an immunity to Dragon. This means that it cannot be phazed out by Dragon Tail, the most common phazing move in the tier, denying even more common counterplay.
Xatu differs itself from the previous two bulky setup sweepers. Whereas those two used one attack with RestTalk for recovery, Xatu is able to forgo Rest due to its ability, Magic Bounce, which means no Pokemon can hit it with a status move. That means no Taunt, no Toxic, no Glare, no Will-O-Wisp, and no Leech Seed, which are all common methods of residual damage used to deal with bulky setup sweepers. This means Xatu can use one slot for its recovery, Roost, over two for recovery, Rest + Sleep Talk, compared to other bulky setup sweepers. This, in turn, gives it a niche as a Stored Power sweeper who can effectively beat Dark types because of it's 4th move, Dazzling Gleam. Weakness Policy boosts both Stored Power and Dazzling Gleam to insane damage outputs, helping it break past its normal checks. Notably, specially defensive Togedemaru is 2HKOed by Stored Power if Xatu is at +2 in the 4 stats it can boost, while Dark types such as AV Guzzlord and Scrafty are cleanly 2HKOed by a +2 Dazzling Gleam.
Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rest
Defensive Coil Sandaconda was a set that put in the work in DLC1 meta, back when Sandaconda dropped from NU and was the most used mon alongside Togedemaru and Jolteon. While the set has more issues than before (you often can’t do much if they have a bulky Water, especially Vaporeon), it’s still able to separate itself from the competition thanks to unresisted EdgeQuake coverage and a useful ability. Like Xatu, it has a very good ability that makes it much harder to wear down passively, which means it can have 2 moves for coverage instead of RestTalk. Unlike the other bulky setup sweepers, I’ve found this more useful on bulky offense or balance instead of semi-stall as a win con or just a generally bulky breaker. This is especially useful in matchups where the opposing bulky Water is a Lanturn, as you can just chip with Earthquake and eventually break past it (although you need 12 Speed EVs to actually outspeed the standard set). Not much to say here, just a really straightforward set.
Not PU by usage:
Cofagrigus @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe OR 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold / Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Toxic Spikes / Shadow Ball
- Rest
Cofagrigus has been a bit of an up-and-comer lately due to a few unique qualities that separate it from other bulky setup sweepers. Like Regirock above, it uses its naturally high defense, Iron Defense, and Body Press to sweep through unprepared teams; however, it does have two unique qualities that separate it from a generic BP sweeper. The first one is Toxic Spikes, which helps it break past its checks such as Jellicent while providing immense team support otherwise. Toxic Spikes in general is a really good option because many teams can’t remove them safely without resorting to options like Defog Talonflame or spinners, both of which are beat 1v1 by Cofagrigus due to ID + BP. The second is that it forgoes Sleep Talk, and instead uses a Chesto Berry + Rest to facilitate its recovery. This means that while it is quite passive in the long run and prone to chip, in the short-term, it is easily able to take care of what it needs to. Cofagrigus is my personal favorite of the bulky setup sweepers and is immensely enjoyable for its unique qualities.
Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Rest
- Bulk Up
A tried-and-true classic that has withstood the test of time. Ever since Gen 5, SpDef Bulk Up Scrafty has been a popular pick no matter what tier it’s in due a few factors. Offensively, Dark + Fighting is a great STAB combo, only resisted by Fairy while having no immunities between them. Scrafty is also good at wearing down its own checks via Knock Off, and its weaknesses are easily built around in this meta (you’re naturally going to have a Fairy resist, Flying resist, and Fighting resist). I think Scrafty has suffered more from general trends than it actually getting worse. Ribombee, Whimsicott, and other Fairy-types are all popular enough to stop what it wants to do defensively, while NP Toxicroak and other bulky setup sweepers can be built to manhandle it offensively. Still a clear go-to option that has the added benefit of 6-0ing Hail and a few other gimmicky HO playstyles.
Orbeetle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Calm Mind
Note: Orbeetle does not have an analysis. I created this spread through testing on ladder and with help from the PS room. It is open to any and all criticism.
I’m going to guess only the people that played me have seen this Orbeetle set. I discovered it on ladder when I was using Xatu and promptly stole it, making my own modifications based on feedback and damage calcing. Basically, apart from Scrafty and unlucky STedge Regirock, it is able to beat all the previous setup sweepers listed + all the other random one I haven’t. This secures it a solidly anti-meta niche. Despite its poor typing, it’s able to setup on stuff such as Xatu, Aromatisse, Togedemaru, Lanturn, and even its checks like Braviary and Archeops can be burned and turned into setup fodder if you Iron Defense on the switch. Orbeetle is usually bulky enough to live through the turns of Rest that would otherwise make it passive, and it’s great at denying bulkier teams that rely on Toxic + hazards chip + opposing bulky wincon to win games.
Other stuff:
Iron Defense + Body Press bulky win cons are quite popular on ladder, and these are some more of the unconventional picks that see usage. Dubwool has Fluffy which is great for setting up and denying contact moves, Avalugg has the second highest Defense stat, and Runerigus has a secondary Ground-type which adds a Rock resistance. However, I would not recommend using them because they are all objective downgrades from their counterparts. Dubwool has no way to hit Darks, Avalugg has a poor Special Defense, and Rune has Water + Grass weaknesses and a much weaker Shadow Ball.
Cosmic Power bulky setup sweepers that aren't Xatu are also mildly popular. As I showed in my Poison RMT, Gothitelle can be absolutely devastating given the right matchup and some support, which Double Dance Claydol can catch people off guard. However, both of these lose to Dark-types in an extremely hard way, and Claydol has to go more offensive to stand a chance more of the time.
Closing Thoughts:
I suck at writing conclusions so lemme do this quick. The bulky setup sweeper is an integral part when it comes to teambuilding. It's something you are either using, taking into account when building, or both in a few cases. They are diverse, ranging from bulky CM users that are immune to Dragon Tail to ID + BP mons that can't touch Ghosts. I hope by showing these mons in further detail, I can both expand their usage on teams and their counterplay as well. I really enjoyed using all of these for research and I hope others experience the same.
Okay so I was going to make a meta post around a month after I posted this, but the problem is it took me like a month to write everything above. I was super busy and couldn't really write this consistently, and motivation issues and yada yada. Anyway, to keep myself from double posting, I'm just going to shove in a meta post below and hope it doesn't look weird.
Currently, the Gen 8 PU meta remind me a lot of Gen 8 RU before Isle Of Armor, as both are examples where just enough centralization is healthy. In only 3 months, an anti-meta with Pokemon such as Omastar and Lycanroc has already emerged to beat Talonflame and friends, while the mons being anti-metaed are already beginning to run options to beat these, such as Toxic on Silvally forms and FWG cores that limit these Pokemon's openings. Whenever I build, I never say "oh I just get 6-0ed by [insert random top threat here], better start again" because both on paper and in practice, most of the powerful threats have tons of natural counterplay available at every given moment. Hail was seen as dumb at the beginning of the meta (don't let the council fool you, Vish still has 0 switchins), but now has been kept in check thanks to meta advancements such as Scarf Togedemaru, Vaporeon cores, and Dry Skin users. I agree with ZS above that the only possible problem would be that the meta is centralized about mons packing it up for greater pastures in NeverUsed, but I think after being shown the dedication of PU players, that this new meta will be figured out quickly. That may be too optimistic of a viewpoint, but I think it can happen.
With that being said, I have a personal, but short, watchlist of mons that could potentially become problematic in the near future.
Unsurprised with the amount of Virizion conversation going on right now. Ever since the suspect test ended, I have shifted from a firmly Do Not Ban position into a leaning Ban one. Yeah, Virizion is technically manageable in terms of teambuilding, but the fact it mandates both an offensive answer and a defensive answer while forcing multiple 50/50s, which are also usually the most important plays in a given game, I found it to be unhealthy long-term. Synthesis was also recently discovered on mixed sets, which avoids one of the main issues Virizion had in longevity while still having all the coverage it needed to blow holes in everything. I think this pushes Virizion over the edge a bit too much for me, and if given the chance I would probably advocate for a Ban. On the topic on what happens after tier shifts, I understand not wanting to take a risky action in quickbanning it; however, I think there are multiple factors that complicate the situation. PU Open, a major PU tournament, is right around the corner, which kinda forces an answer made in the first 4 days of April. While the shifts are not yet fact, it would take an immense falling out to keep Talonflame, Guzzlord, Vaporeon, and Braviary in PU (Hail stuff is already guaranteed), so I see no harm in quickbanning it when the thing cited as its best check and what was most likely keeping it "balanced".
There's also the topic of "we have no idea what the metagame will be like after shifts" As someone who has played multiple games where Talonflame, Guzzlord, Vaporeon, and Braviary were not present yet Virizion was, I can detail an exact gameplan of what would happen.
Whoever has the Virizion will dedicate their gameplan around getting it in. This is the case with these mons as well, but due to a lack of Flame on either team, it would become the sole focus and the opponent would equally try to make sure Virizion gets as little openings as possible.
Virizion eventually comes in (either on a smart double, a free pivot, or the player without Virizion made a mistake).
Now that Virizion is in, it forces immense pressure on the opponent. What exactly will it click? STEdge, Leaf Storm, Close Combat, SD, CM? It clicks a midground option depending on the situation (Leaf Storm if their Poison is a Weezing, CC if they don't have a Poison, SD if they lack an offensive check) and switches out.
Unless TSpikes is on the field, and especially if Virizion has Synthesis, it can do this multiple times a match without any drawback, and by the end it usually takes 1-2 mons down.
This may only be a limited sample size, but I find centralization around Virizion to be extremely unhealthy. The ability to constantly click safe options, knowing it has a smaller chance of being forced out because it lives a Ribombee Moonblast after LO recoil and Rocks, and gameplans revolving around Virizion in a meta without Talonflame is simply too much for me. Therefore, I am in support of a quick answer in the form of a quickban.
I did not agree with termii when she first voted to suspect Toxicroak, but the more I've used and played against it, the more I realized how absurdly dumb it is. Against most teams, it has no problem clicking buttons early on to weaken its check, then click whatever boosting move it's running against one of the many defensive mons in the metagame that can't threaten it (Gigalith without Earthquake, Vaporeon, Aromatisse, Silvally-Steel) and outright sweep. The only matchup it might struggle in is offense, and even then it has priority in Sucker Punch/Vacuum Wave to pick off foes at +2. It also forces a massive guessing game at team preview. Is it Nasty Plot? If so, don't go into Talonflame and instead your Gigalith with Earthquake, but instead it clicks SD and Drain Punch kills you from full. Is it Swords Dance? If so, go into your Colbur Palossand, but then it clicks NP and Shadow Ball kills from full. It could also be Scarf and cripple/deny your offensive counterplay so you can sweep with Gunk Shot (I am so glad it doesn't have Close Combat). Like Virizion, it has so many options available to it at any given time that it can get past all of its would-be checks, mandates a defensive and offensive answers, and forces multiple 50/50s throughout a match. I'm not exactly sure how to feel in a shifts meta because offensive checks will probably leave, but Vaporeon, the mon it loves taking advantage of the most, will probably also leave.
I have been anti-Vish since Day 1 of the meta, and after 3 months, I still believe it's broken. The LO set I posted has no switchins and current Hail teams have all the options they need to eliminate possible offensive counterplay, such as a Ghost type. I've ranted on it in the past and don't plan on doing so again, but it is quite sad that all possible discussion on it was shut down a week or so after the Virizion suspect ended. However, NU is currently looking at Hail and Vish may not even be in the tier come next week, so the anti-Vish camp may still get its way. It would be funny if that happened.
Overall, I do heavily enjoy the current PU meta, although I do think there are some problems that, long-term, could become an issue if not dealt with. Also sorry if this isn't exactly the most coherent post, my thoughts on PU often tend to be rambly and stuff. Thanks for reading!
Unsurprised with the amount of Virizion conversation going on right now. Ever since the suspect test ended, I have shifted from a firmly Do Not Ban position into a leaning Ban one. Yeah, Virizion is technically manageable in terms of teambuilding, but the fact it mandates both an offensive answer and a defensive answer while forcing multiple 50/50s, which are also usually the most important plays in a given game, I found it to be unhealthy long-term. Synthesis was also recently discovered on mixed sets, which avoids one of the main issues Virizion had in longevity while still having all the coverage it needed to blow holes in everything. I think this pushes Virizion over the edge a bit too much for me, and if given the chance I would probably advocate for a Ban. On the topic on what happens after tier shifts, I understand not wanting to take a risky action in quickbanning it; however, I think there are multiple factors that complicate the situation. PU Open, a major PU tournament, is right around the corner, which kinda forces an answer made in the first 4 days of April. While the shifts are not yet fact, it would take an immense falling out to keep Talonflame, Guzzlord, Vaporeon, and Braviary in PU (Hail stuff is already guaranteed), so I see no harm in quickbanning it when the thing cited as its best check and what was most likely keeping it "balanced".
I did not agree with termii when she first voted to suspect Toxicroak, but the more I've used and played against it, the more I realized how absurdly dumb it is. Against most teams, it has no problem clicking buttons early on to weaken its check, then click whatever boosting move it's running against one of the many defensive mons in the metagame that can't threaten it (Gigalith without Earthquake, Vaporeon, Aromatisse, Silvally-Steel) and outright sweep. The only matchup it might struggle in is offense, and even then it has priority in Sucker Punch/Vacuum Wave to pick off foes at +2. It also forces a massive guessing game at team preview. Is it Nasty Plot? If so, don't go into Talonflame and instead your Gigalith with Earthquake, but instead it clicks SD and Drain Punch kills you from full. Is it Swords Dance? If so, go into your Colbur Palossand, but then it clicks NP and Shadow Ball kills from full. It could also be Scarf and cripple/deny your offensive counterplay so you can sweep with Gunk Shot (I am so glad it doesn't have Close Combat). Like Virizion, it has so many options available to it at any given time that it can get past all of its would-be checks, mandates a defensive and offensive answers, and forces multiple 50/50s throughout a match. I'm not exactly sure how to feel in a shifts meta because offensive checks will probably leave, but Vaporeon, the mon it loves taking advantage of the most, will probably also leave.
I have been anti-Vish since Day 1 of the meta, and after 3 months, I still believe it's broken. The LO set I posted has no switchins and current Hail teams have all the options they need to eliminate possible offensive counterplay, such as a Ghost type. I've ranted on it in the past and don't plan on doing so again, but it is quite sad that all possible discussion on it was shut down a week or so after the Virizion suspect ended. However, NU is currently looking at Hail and Vish may not even be in the tier come next week, so the anti-Vish camp may still get its way. It would be funny if that happened.
