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This entire discussion about how Skarmory isn't an Excadrill counter is both ridiculous and annoying.
Skarmory does 25% to Excadrill with Brave Bird. Skarmory pops its balloon and sets up spikes. Skarmory doesn't let it get past +2 because any non retarded Skarmory will phaze it out by then to avoid the mega-hax scenario tehy is rightfully scared of. Skarmory spams Brave Bird or Spikes on it, takes no damage from anything, and phazs it out. It beats Excadrill as last mon if Excadrill switches in with any previous damage. Skarmory beats Excadrill every single time unless you get haxed.
Well of course he always beats him, because apparently all Excadrill run balloon, you always use spikes as he rocks slides and use Whirldwind as he uses swords dance.
And by saying you can expect a Rock Slide flinch from Excadrill on Skarmory is like saying Gliscor doesn't counter Excadrill because of a possible Rock Slide flinch. It's not true, and honestly stupid. None of you are saying Gliscor doesn't counter Excadrill, I'm sure.
No of course I'm not saying that because Gliscor can actually threaten Excadrill.
Stop saying the same for Skarmory when Skarmory is absolutely amazing at beating Excadrill while providing team support at the same time. Gliscor doesn't do anything but laugh. Skarmory laughs while crippling the entirety of the opponent's team, as long as it doesn't get greedy and doesn't get mega-haxed.
Actually, all my calculations where done with the Balloon item and not with Life Orb damage =/ , if you actually took the time to do your own calculations instead of making assumptions, you would have known this.
The goal of Excadrill is to set up on a Pokemon that can't do shit to it, so it would get a free SD up as you switch into another Pokemon - after all, you listed the Pokemon that you claim would 'counter' or 'check' Excadrill, which implies that it would need to be switched into in the first place x.x , and if Excadrill where to attack, most of the Pokemon you listed can't afford to take an extra hit, but meh, this is all based on specific scenarios anyways.
Ridiculous statement. What good are spikes going to do when Excadrill is sweeping your team? And there is this move that Excadrill has called Rapid Spin...
You do realize that an Excadrill with rapid spin immediately gains about 10 checks right?
Here's a couple examples:
Rotom-W: No longer threatened by an OHKO from +2 LO Return, becomes a check.
Celebi: Takes diddly shit from Exca's attacks and can hit back with Leaf Stom/ HP Fire
Landorus: Exca now relies on flinch hax to beat Lando, in other words, Lando is now a check
Hydreigon: Rock Slide won't be OHKOing, whereas Hydreigon can smack you around with Fire Blast
Breloom: 2HKOd by +2 LO Earthquake, but can get a Sub up after the first EQ and Focus Punch
Virizion: Goes straight from shaky check to hard counter
Well of course he always beats him, because apparently all Excadrill run balloon, you always use spikes as he rocks slides and use Whirldwind as he uses swords dance.
Anyone with half a brain will know to pop the balloon instead of set up Spikes on the first switchin. As well, the best way to check Excadrill with Skarmory is not to kill Excadrill with Skarmory. Its to phaze out Excadrill whenever it gets to +2 so another pokemon on the team like Rotom-W or Landorus can take out a +0 Excadrill. In a 1v1 tournament, Skarmory is indeed a shitty answer to Excadrill, however, in 6 on 6, Skarm can be a team player and help someone else eliminate the threat. Its not like things like Rotom-W and Landorus are useless outside of checking Exca either.
Anyone with half a brain will know to pop the balloon instead of set up Spikes on the first switchin. As well, the best way to check Excadrill with Skarmory is not to kill Excadrill with Skarmory.
Its the only way to check Excadrill with Skarmory, as far as I know, and its a pretty unreliable method to check Excadrill with at that because it leaves Skarmory in a vulnerable position that compromises his ability to check Excadrill in the future while Excadrill is mostly unharmed. That's actually been kinda my point this whole time.
Its to phaze out Excadrill whenever it gets to +2 so another pokemon on the team like Rotom-W or Landorus can take out a +0 Excadrill. In a 1v1 tournament, Skarmory is indeed a shitty answer to Excadrill, however, in 6 on 6, Skarm can be a team player and help someone else eliminate the threat. Its not like things like Rotom-W and Landorus are useless outside of checking Exca either.
That's my beef with Excadrill. You either have a Gliscor or you need something like 2-3 reliable checks on your team to handle him or you're extremely vulnerable to getting steamrolled. Fun.
And even if you do decide stack your team with Excadrill checks you're vulnerable to getting swept because, as it happens, the Excadrill user gets to use other Pokemon on his team too !
Its the only way to check Excadrill with Skarmory, as far as I know, and its a pretty unreliable method to check Excadrill with at that because it leaves Skarmory in a vulnerable position that compromises his ability to check Excadrill in the future while Excadrill is mostly unharmed. That's actually been kinda my point this whole time.
That's my beef with Excadrill. You either have a Gliscor or you need something like 2-3 reliable checks on your team to handle him or you're extremely vulnerable to getting steamrolled. Fun.
And even if you do decide stack your team with Excadrill checks you're vulnerable to getting swept because, as it happens, the Excadrill user gets to use other Pokemon on his team too !
Adamant Air Balloon does next to nothing to Skarmory. In fact, Skarm outdamages +0 Exca with Brave Bird. Unless Adamant Air Balloon flinches like 8 times in a row, Exca is not getting through. Adamant Life Orb is worse. Rock Slide won't be doing much to Skarm, and it'll eventually die to Life Orb+Spikes recoil.
Not really, all you need is another pokemon who doesn't get OHKOd by a +0 Excadrill, which is plentiful in OU. 90% of those pokemon are by no means dead weight. Half the sand teams carry a Skarmory Rotom-W combo. Both Skarmory and Rotom-W can check a plethora of threats besides Excadrill, and in tandem, the two are guaranteed to keep Excadrill in control provided the user doesn't do something incredibly stupid like switch Skarmory into Heatran.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't understand how everyone here can say with a straight face "Skarmory can't threaten Excadrill."
4 Brave Birds = Dead Excadrill at full health.
What the scenario would instead look like:
Excadrill tries to set up on Skarmory. Skarmory pops its balloon with Brave Bird. Skarmory has all of the time in the world to Roost up and then Whirlwind it out because EXCADRILL. DOESN'T. DO. SHIT. TO. SKARMORY.
Then Excadrill comes in again? This time with no Balloon? Well, then Skarmory uses Spikes on Excadrill! And then Whirlwinds it out.
As long as you're not a greedy bastard, Skarmory. Can't. Lose. to. Excadrill. (or unless you're flinched like six times).
Well of course he always beats him, because apparently all Excadrill run balloon, you always use spikes as he rocks slides and use Whirldwind as he uses swords dance.
This made absolutely no sense. If Excadrill doesn't have an Air Balloon, then it's absolutely even easier to handle because it switches in on Spikes the entire time. With Life Orb, it's hurting itself to hurt you, while all you do is laugh at it. The last sentence wasn't even proper.
Alternatively, Ecadrill keeps Swords Dancing up to +4 or +6 while Skarmory pokes it. There's a reason no one cares about 4HKOes; the game moves far too fast for them to ever work.
It's because we've played the game, been left in a last mon situation against Excadrill, and lost to it without flinches, crits, misplays, or anything of the sort.
Which means little to nothing, because Excadrill isn't going to be sitting there while you spam BB.
Excadrill tries to set up on Skarmory. Skarmory pops its balloon with Brave Bird. Skarmory has all of the time in the world to Roost up and then Whirlwind it out because EXCADRILL. DOESN'T. DO. SHIT. TO. SKARMORY.
Dude, read what your own post. Just below you posted a calc of Excadrill doing about 45% to Skarmory with Rock Slide at +2. That's a big deal when you factor in RS flinch and SR. And I'm talking about Adamant LO Excadrill, of course its easier to beat Ballon Excadrill because it sacrifices power for utility.
This made absolutely no sense. If Excadrill doesn't have an Air Balloon, then it's absolutely even easier to handle because it switches in on Spikes the entire time. With Life Orb, it's hurting itself to hurt you, while all you do is laugh at it. The last sentence wasn't even proper.
If you're using Skarmory as your spiker and its been setting up spikes beforehand its reasonable to say he's been taking residual damage, which would compromise his ability to check Excadrill more than it would compromise Excadrill's sweep.
And I was being heavily sarcastic in that quote.
This made even less sense.
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs 252 HP/184 Def Gliscor: 43.79% - 51.69%
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs 252 HP/232 Def Skarmory: 41.62% - 48.8%
If hax can get past Skarmory, hax can get past Gliscor. Excadrill needs two flinches to get past Gliscor. It needs two flinches to get past Skarmory.
It makes perfect sense. Gliscor can dispatch Excadrill with STAB Earthquake while Skarmory cannot. And also, Gliscor has Posion Heal and Skarmory does not, so those calcs lean in Gliscor's favor.
Skarmory does approximately 25% with each Brave Bird. Excadrill doesn't do shit to IT.
I don't understand. Skarmory can switch into all Excadrill sets, set up on it, or immediately threaten it. Or, if it's ridiculous, just get rid of it.
Again, 45% damage with Rock Slide at +2 is not shit, and if you want to get Excadrill out of play you have to whirlwind it out while Skarmory is left at 55%+ health. GL switching in again if you don't get a chance to roost. Skarmory might technically qualify as a counter but if so he's a rather poor one.
yeah I don't really like Skarmory has an Excadrill counter either. Granted, its a good pokemon, but when a +2 LO RS + SR puts you at around 50% (factoring Leftovers + average RS damage roll) thats just crippling, especially when you factor in that you only phazed Excadrill out, had to escape the 30% flinch rate, and still need to Roost up on something. If you WW and brought in a Heatran or something your forced out and now sit at around 38% when you next come in which is suddenly low enough for many things to take you out.
You also, now fail to counter Excadrill when it next switchs in unless you roost first, which actualy puts you under a little bit more pressure, as well as postponing any plans you had to lay Spikes.
I am not denying that some of you have used Skarmory to great potential in countering Excadrill, however when I build my team id always pick Gliscor over Skarm just because its a fuckload more reliable in checking Excadrill whereas Skarm still has that 30% chance and getting fucked over and losing the match without doing anything to Excadrill.
Frustration has no flinch chance so you OHKO Excadrill with EQ. Granted, yes RS can flinch Gliscor as well, however my point was that if Skarmory avoids the flinch it only phases Excadrill out, so Excadrill is still sitting at around 87% or something wheras Gliscor gets the OHKO with EQ. Plus it has the passive Poison Heal regeneration which makes it slightly harder to weaken
(sorry ginga for editting my post after you already responded >_>)
So I decided to find out what actually could switch in to Excadrill on any attack, survive the next attack, then OHKO back or at least kill Excadrill before being killed which is the (outdated) definition of a counter. The list of Pokemon is incredibly short.
Assuming max damage:
(No Ubers included)
All the Pokemon that can avoid an OHKO from +2 Excadrill
All the OU Pokemon that can avoid an OHKO from +2 Excadrill not including Air Balloon assuming SR and +1 Spikes
Code:
Skarmory
Quagsire
Bronzong
Gliscor
We can see that assuming entry hazards (which are common), Skarmory, Quagsire, Bronzong, and Gliscor are the only OU Pokemon which can live any attack from a +2 Excadrill. Quagsire is 2HKOed by +0 Earthquake. This leaves Skarmory, Bronzong, and Gliscor as the only OU Pokemon that can switch into an Excadrill.
Skarmory does 22.4% - 26.6% to Excadrill with Brave Bird.
Bronzong does 64.3% - 75.9% to Excadrill with Earthquake.
Gliscor OHKOes with Earthquake.
Therefore, we see that Gliscor is the only Pokemon that can switch into an Excadrill, take a hit, and KO back (assuming no flinches) - all other Pokemon are either 2HKOed without being able to OHKO back or OHKOed by the appropriate move.
Technically Suicune and Slowbro cannot switch in as they both get wrecked by +2 LO EQ versions and iirc they don't even OHKO with Surf. Granted, Excadrill is prolly crippled but chances are it just crippled your physical wall as well. Plus when you factor in that Suicune has to run Rest for recovery and Slowbro has about a 60% chance to be OHKOed by EQ after SR I prolly won't class them as solid checks. Quagsire also gets 2KOed if it switchs in on an EQ iirc.
Personally, when your best answers to Excadrill are Bronzong (no recovery) and Gliscor and Skarm (both have a chance to lose if they get flinched) it just shows how fucking hard Excadrill has become to "counter" (Granted the term counter is rather outdated but I don't want to go into that here).
I'm sorry but these two make absolutely no sense being a check to +2 Exca with those moves I hope you were joking.... Why the heck would Cobalion even sword dance when after its balloon is popped it will be OHKOed by EQ due to Exca's speed under Sand Storm. While I certainly hope you were joking about Bisharp using Thunder Wave on an Excadrill, hint Exca is part ground. Yes Balloon does make a good check to Exca but I think you may have been stretching it.
I'm sorry but these two make absolutely no sense being a check to +2 Exca with those moves I hope you were joking.... Why the heck would Cobalion even sword dance when after its balloon is popped it will be OHKOed by EQ due to Exca's speed under Sand Storm. While I certainly hope you were joking about Bisharp using Thunder Wave on an Excadrill, hint Exca is part ground. Yes Balloon does make a good check to Exca but I think you may have been stretching it.
I'm sorry but these two make absolutely no sense being a check to +2 Exca with those moves I hope you were joking.... Why the heck would Cobalion even sword dance when after its balloon is popped it will be OHKOed by EQ due to Exca's speed under Sand Storm. While I certainly hope you were joking about Bisharp using Thunder Wave on an Excadrill, hint Exca is part ground. Yes Balloon does make a good check to Exca but I think you may have been stretching it.
Meh, it has a chance to be OHKOed by +1 LO RS after SR, and SS just increases that chance. Interestingly enough, I redid the calculations, including Ubers, and it's official: no Pokemon avoids a 2HKO from Excadrill except Giratina, which can tank a +2 EQ then Will-O-Wisp Excadrill. It loses to Sub Excadrill though :X
Excadrill does have counters, including the aforementioned Skarmory. A counter, by definition, can switch in on any attack with any spread/item that Pokemon may be carrying, and then either force it out or take it out. What we're running into is the shakiness of defensive counters. A defensive counter may be able to switch in once or twice, but it usually can't switch in repeatedly. Hyper-offensive teams from last gen and double dragon teams exploit this by hammering defensive counters until they can't take hits any longer. Most of the Pokemon on a HO team may be countered by the same wall/tank, but it'll break after repeated switch-ins. Similarly, having two Dragon types that have the same counters on the same team may seem redundant, but the idea isn't to beat the counters with one blow - it's to wear them down so by the time they're sitting at low health, hopefully you'll be able to sweep right through them. Basically, Excadrill is a hyper-offensive Pokemon with defensive counters and very few offensive checks. The main "problem" with Excadrill is that it forces defensive Pokemon and makes HO teams unreliable. In my opinion, that makes Excadrill metagame defining, but not necessarily broken. It's beatable with common and useful Pokemon, but it shapes the metagame by severely limiting certain types of teams. Whether or not that's "desirable" is another matter.
Excadrill is very powerful in sandstorm using his sand rush ability but maybe there should be Sand rush Complex Ban where both sand rush and sandstorm should not be on the same team
Why are people still naming various checks to Excadrill and claiming it's not broken? That is beside the point. The point is that all of Excadrill's checks and counters are either walls, extremely defensive Pokemon who can't sweep, or frail Air Balloon users, which are the dumbest and most unreliable checks in existence. Go and read Snunch and my nomination again if you are unsure. Relying on the "he has counters" argument is just poor. Blaziken had counters, Garchomp had counters, hell even Extremekiller Arceus has counters. Excadrill is a deadly-ass sweeper already, add on the fact that it cuts teambuilding and annihilates complete playstyles make it very, very overpowered. If you are all unsure what we're looking for, go and read Doug's Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame.
shrang: The same could've been said about Blissey, which limited the viability of special sweepers prior to the current generation (just compare the number of physical/mixed sweepers to the number of special sweepers).
Excadrill does limit the number of possible team archetypes, but enough to force everyone to run one or two teams. Yes, certain styles just aren't viable with Excadrill around to outspeed and KO fast, frail sweepers/revenge killers, but there's still room for variety.
