np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Nkululeko]

\Counterng sand veil with my own weather however is ridiculous. The cloud nine pokemon and weather starters cannot switch in to tyranitar or take him on well.

Taking him on isn't required, just switching in takes care of it and if you're running rain then both Tornadus and Thundurus beat it, which they do under any weather. It's not ridiculous, it's a counter.

However fine that is, I'm against banning Chomp since I've yet to see an argument saying it's broken outside of occasionl hax, which would make it situationally dangerous, not broken

 

[Syberia]

Why don't we just wait until everything with an evasion ability gets released in DW with an alternate, and then ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak under the evasion clause we already agreed on. Minimal impact on the game except for removing two abilities that annoy everyone anyways.

This comes after winning a match earlier I should never have won due to some last-poke Garchomp antics.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Why don't we just wait until everything with an evasion ability gets released in DW with an alternate, and then ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak under the evasion clause we already agreed on. Minimal impact on the game except for removing two abilities that annoy everyone anyways.

This comes after winning a match earlier I should never have won due to some last-poke Garchomp antics.

Well, minimal impact aside from movepool restrictions that exist entirely for Garchomp's convenience, anyway.

 

[XienZo]

Why don't we just wait until everything with an evasion ability gets released in DW with an alternate, and then ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak under the evasion clause we already agreed on. Minimal impact on the game except for removing two abilities that annoy everyone anyways.

The thing is, what if the "alternate" ability is also a candidate to be banned, like Swift Swim?

It just seems like this entire ability-banning idea is flawed; it assumes that every pokemon has at least ONE ability that isn't a candidate to be banned, which isn't necessarily always going to be true.

At that point, it becomes possible for an ability-ban to in fact ban a pokemon altogether to Ubers, which defeats a major advantage of ability-banning.

 

[Xenocide]

Why Sand Veil/Snow Cloak shouldn't be banned:
Banning Sand Veil and Snow Cloak as a whole will have more negative effects on the metagame than positive. Since our goal as a forum is too creative the most ideal metagame, abili-banning will be counter productive. Just in case you haven't looked it up, 26 pokemon have the abilities Sand Veil (18) and Snow Cloak (8). And 15 of these 26 (nearly 3 of 5) have only one other ability to choose from, none of which benefit them as much as their evasion does (Poison Heal being the biggest exception). You are forcing 15 pokemon to swap up their movesets, and overall play style, just to tailor to one dominate OU poke.

Gentlemen, ladies, i want you all to take a nice long look at something:

^That pokemon, you may very well know, has next to no counters in Sandstorm, which is an extremely common condition (21% usage Ttar+5% usage Hippo= roughly 26% of teams). As often as occasion permits, this pokemon will switch in, and get a free Sub/SD on your switch out. On a fair switch in (meaning Chomp is brought in the same turn as an opponents pokemon), assuming leftovers, Chomp has 5 turns to spam Sub before he runs out of HP. With Sand Veil's 20% miss ratio, this gives him a statistically guaranteed free turn, which he can use to hit you with his unresisted STABs or set up a free Swords Dance. So no matter how good you are at the game, no matter how well you outplay your opponent, this pokemon gives them an opportunity to turn things around, statistically, 100% of the time.

I know i'm not the only one who remembers how broken Sand Veil SubChomp became in Gen 4. That thing swept hole teams. Fuck, people switched it in turn two, right after they got SS and SR up. And although there have been added counters to it in Gen 5, it still is reaching that broken/OP mark again, being on 18.3% of teams. But, as you may recall, it never really found it's niche in 4th Gen Ubers, being outclassed by almost all other Scarf Revengers, and it won't accomplish much in Gen 5 Ubers either.

Proposals on how to deal with it:
1. Specific abili-ban. Just like I believe only certain pokemon should be stripped of Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, only Garchomp should be robbed of Sand Veil. The 18 Sand Veil users should not be hindered, just because one of them can actually abuse the ability. And aint no way in hell the 8 Snow Cloakers should be hindered, just because of a brother ability, who only one user can abuse. Hail teams are barely useable as is, they could really do without the banning one of their only usable abilities.

2. Ban the combination of Sand Stream and Sand Veil. Keep in mind this still forces changes to other Sand Veil users, but it's better than banning Sand Veil altogether.

 

[Ewil]

If the feeling is this, then we have to simply ban chomp. According to the statistics he can virtually win the whole metagame thanks to a free sub/SD (i suppose only one sand veil miss, considering my luck, i suppose 3406123478239 :P /joke).
Even a faster sweeper/counter can come in, fails his attack and get raped by an earthQ.

Or we must make a complex-ban of Sand Veil+Sand Stream for having all the set that we want on to the pokes with SV and don't let they abuse their annoying ability.

Or we live with it don't make anything. (Personally, I don't want)

 

[Acritter]

not going to spam the thread by quoting that text

Two problems. One, you aren't "guaranteed" to get a free Substitute with Garchomp. That's not how odds work. At best you have a 75% chance of getting one. Second, you spend an entire post discussing how Garchomp is the source of the problem and so imbabroken, and then conclude... to ban Sand Veil either on Garchomp or with Sand Stream? I'm really not sure how to feel about that.

 

[shrang]

Proposals on how to deal with it:
1. Specific abili-ban. Just like I believe only certain pokemon should be stripped of Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, only Garchomp should be robbed of Sand Veil. The 18 Sand Veil users should not be hindered, just because one of them can actually abuse the ability. And aint no way in hell the 8 Snow Cloakers should be hindered, just because of a brother ability, who only one user can abuse. Hail teams are barely useable as is, they could really do without the banning one of their only usable abilities.

2. Ban the combination of Sand Stream and Sand Veil. Keep in mind this still forces changes to other Sand Veil users, but it's better than banning Sand Veil altogether.

3. We can just ban Garchomp.

EDIT:

But, as you may recall, it never really found it's niche in 4th Gen Ubers, being outclassed by almost all other Scarf Revengers, and it won't accomplish much in Gen 5 Ubers either.

Performance in Ubers and relevance to OU banning aside, Garchomp was one of the best revenge killers in 4th gen Ubers. Base 102 Speed and Choice Scarf meant it outsped virtually every Dragon Dancer in the metagame (DD Latios was insignificant). Swords Dance Garchomp was also one of the deadliest sets in Ubers when used properly. I know this because I updated the fucking analysis. It was #14 in the latest available stats (August 2010):

| 14 | Garchomp | 6346 | 16.06 |

That gained more usage than Latias, Deoxys-A, Lugia, and Ho-Oh, just to name a few Ubers. Please refrain from talking about things you have no idea with. "Garchomp not getting a niche in Ubers" is a typical comment from someone who has never played Ubers before.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Chomp has 5 turns to spam Sub before he runs out of HP. With Sand Veil's 20% miss ratio, this gives him a statistically guaranteed free turn, which he can use to hit you with his unresisted STABs or set up a free Swords Dance. So no matter how good you are at the game, no matter how well you outplay your opponent, this pokemon gives them an opportunity to turn things around, statistically, 100% of the time.

That is not actually what Stats guarantee. What they guarantee is: on average, Chomp will get one free turn. That is very far from statistically guaranteed. The odds that Garchomp gets at least one free turn is 1 - P(5 attacks hit) = 1 - .8^5 = 67.232%. So, Garchomp will, in the long run, average a free turn (not counting extra free turns from <100% accurate attacks and from previous ones missing and giving Chomp more chances than just the 5 posited) and will get an extra turn only 67.232% of the time. So, 1/3 of the time, Chomp doesn't even get a chance to set up.

Also, Chomp's STABs aren't unresisted. See: Skarmory.

 

[RotatingAtom]

Edit: are you kidding me? triple-accelgor'd? :/

And 15 of these 26 (nearly 3 of 5) have only one other ability to choose from, none of which benefit them as much as their evasion does (Poison Heal being the biggest exception).

Yeah, Dugtrio for example had to use the terrible Arena Trap.
Man, we're talking about only 3 fully evolved, useable Pokémon who (currently) can only run Sand Veil. Garchomp, Cacturne, Sandslash. If a Sand Veil ban means I can't use those 3 anymore, I'm fine with it.

Chomp has 5 turns to spam Sub before he runs out of HP. With Sand Veil's 20% miss ratio, this gives him a statistically guaranteed free turn

Percentages don't add up like that. Attacking Sand Veil Chomp with a 100% accurate move 5 times in a row gives you a 32.768% chance of hitting all 5 times, and an 8.192% chance to miss exactly once. The remainder of the time, you'll miss 2-4 times.

unresisted STABs

Skamory, Bronzong.

But, as you may recall, it never really found it's niche in 4th Gen Ubers, being outclassed by almost all other Scarf Revengers, and it won't accomplish much in Gen 5 Ubers either.

I swear, if I read that argument one more goddamn time, my blood will start boiling.
We don't give a shit about how well something does in Ubers if it is too strong for OU. Ubers is a banlist.


All that being said, I still support a Sand Veil / Snow Cloak ban, for the sole reason of the 2 abilities being reliant entirely on luck and nothing else.

Suicune used Ice Beam!
But it missed!

 

[November Blue]

^That pokemon, you may very well know, has next to no counters in Sandstorm, ----------------
With Sand Veil's 20% miss ratio, this gives him a statistically guaranteed free turn, which he can use to hit you with his unresisted STABs or set up a free Swords Dance. So no matter how good you are at the game, no matter how well you outplay your opponent, this pokemon gives them an opportunity to turn things around, statistically, 100% of the time.

I like the way you made it sound worse with the bold text.

But I'm going to have to stop you here. Sand veil does not give garchomp a 100% statistically guaranteed free turn. The 20% activation ratio of sand veil means 20% out of 100%, or 1/5. This does not mean 5 turns. Using substitute 5 times in a row does not count for 20% each out of 100% The chance is closer to 5/25% for 5 turns.

 

[ERFN]

I don't see why you would rather ban Sand Veil than Garchomp. As many people before stated, Garchomp would still be Top Tier even if it had Pressure or Keen Eye. It's just the combination of what Garchomp is that makes it a tad more dangerous when coupled with Sand Veil. But that doesn't mean Sand Veil is broken. Like at all.
100% to 80% isn't really that bad. Of course it's not 100% anymore - but hey, people still use Hydro Pump and Blizzard for better or for worse. I myself even dread using moves with 90% accuracy as I really can't stand missing an attack, so anything that raises evasion is a punch in the face for anyone who wants reliability

Yet I still have to defend Sand Veil for, even if it brings more luck to the game, is still nothing to fear very much. Of course, missing against Garchomp is different from missing against Froslass, it might even lose you the game. Also, there's no surefire way to counter it without sacrificing one Pokemon that to do so.
But the root of the problem is Garchomp, who would still rape your team if it had another ability. Just not as hard. But that's Garchomp for you, not Sand Veil.

Also, you can't just go and ban it's only Non-DW-ability. That would suck. I can't even comprehend how one could consider something like that.

 

[Nokocchi]

Not to mention Banning Sand Veil and Snow Cloak also has the side effect of banning the SV/SC Pokemon's 3rd and 4th Gen only moves.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Oh, don't even get me started on this. Pokemon would be fucking unplayable if all moves had a base accuracy of 80% and below. At the very least, if we don't want low accuracy moves to cost us the game, we don't choose them. EX: choosing Flamethrower over Fire Blast when possible.

Then we get Garchomp where 80% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't plan for that. Even if you're aware of Sand Veil, you can't 'turn it off' (bearing in mind this is a metagame obsessed with weather control) or pick another ability. Missing against Gliscor or Sandslash randomly will not cost you games, but every miss against Garchomp will hurt you, where relatively harmless Pokemon like the aforementioned lack the ability to really hurt anything outside of what they're supposed to counter.

To reiterate: the worst part of Sand Veil is the fact that the biggest threat in OU gets a free turn 20% of the time, which means free kills or setup for more kills. Nothing does that besides Garchomp. The problem? Garchomp. It's time for this guy to go.

1) They're not mandatory. (Think of weather, Gravity, etc.)
2) The fact that missing will cost you games is not a reason for a ban. It happens all the time, just like paralysis, a 25% chance, can cost games.
3) It's not a biggest threat, look at usage statistics.

Your analysis is terrible. Try using arguments and criteria instead of.. well... nothing.

 

[Xenocide]

Wow, i really need to stop getting on Smogon when I take Adderall..

I'm in AP Calculus (not trying to gloat..), and looking back on my post, i see the obvious flaw that it's actually .8^5 (about 1/3rd) of the time that all your moves will hit, stealing Chomp's free turn. I love using Chomp, and it's 102 base speed let it revenge many other 100 BS Scarf Sweepers in Ubers such as Palkia. I played 4th Gen Ubers towards the beginning, so I didn't have that much experience with Chomp. Sorry for my partially blind accusation.

We don't give a shit about how well something does in Ubers if it is too strong for OU. Ubers is a banlist.

I fully understand this, that's what eventually pushed me away from Ubers; it isn't designed to be balanced. I'm sorry that the perception of me on drugs was uninformed and careless xD

Skamory, Bronzong.

Mentioning such few specific counters to Chomp is ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that I have to run Bronzong or Skarm just to counter Garchomp? Any pokemon that requires me to run a specific counter, probably needs to be banned. I don't agree with the majority of the statements I made when I was on adderall last night. Sand Veil should remain untouched, and Chomp should become Uber. Again, ScarfChomp is absolutely amazing, and I love how it fits into almost any OU team. But, it's time for Chomp to go. It's just too damn hard to counter with it's awkward yet amazing 102 BS, massive attack, STABs, and movepool.

 

[Darusare]

Also, Chomp's STABs aren't unresisted. See: Skarmory.

hes immune not resistant

Honestly Chomp is getting annoying
without drizzle to keep him in check
ferrothorn is practicly the only thing helping
and even he was being accused of being broken
of course scarf chomp ckecks all other varients
but hes still a beast and is totally horrible for the metagame

 

[capefeather]

I don't think people were arguing against you, just correcting your statements. I think they agree with the overall idea, though. If Garchomp with Sand Veil is detrimental to the metagame then just ban Garchomp, man.

hes immune not resistant

you have got to be kidding me

 

[Katakiri]

Not to mention Banning Sand Veil and Snow Cloak also has the side effect of banning the SV/SC Pokemon's 3rd and 4th Gen only moves.

To be fair, the only Pokemon that lose moves are Sandslash, Cacturne, Garchomp, Glaceon, & Froslass. The rest of the Pokemon have always had alternate abilities.

And most of these Pokemon get, or are getting, big fat buffs via DW abilites. Sand Rush Sandslash, Water Absorb Cacturne, Ice Body Glaceon, Cursed Body Froslass, hell even Garchomp likes Rough Skin.

The only useful moves they lose are Stealth Rock, Ice Punch, Focus Punch, Superpower, Sleep Talk, Signal Beam, & Trick. When was the last time you saw SR Garchomp anyway?

Regardless, I still hate the idea of banning abilities, but once all DW abilities are released, there's not a huge amount of harm done from banning them.


Garchomp's not on my hit-list until Ferrothorn, who has completely centered the metagame around himself and made an ass-load of Pokemon nonviable, is out. I may not like Water-types & specifically Rain, but I'm calling Ferro out for threatening Variety & Balance of the metagame, parts of the Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.

Call me Mr. crazy hipster DROUGHT team user that dislikes a Steel/Grass Pokemon, but Ferrothorn seems to fit perfectly into what Suspect Testing was made to test for anyway.

I know that he's not going to get banned because EVERYONE loves using him and doesn't want him banned, but that's not going to stop me from calling him out on it.

 

[capefeather]

When was the last time you saw SR Garchomp anyway?

I used defensive SR Garchomp D:

 

[Demoness]

When was the last time you saw SR Garchomp anyway?

I've used defensive SR Chomp before, and it works quite well. It's not exactly common, but it gets it up with great ease, and Garchomp is just great as a bulky Pokemon.

 

[AlphaSpade]

At that point, it becomes possible for an ability-ban to in fact ban a pokemon altogether to Ubers, which defeats a major advantage of ability-banning.

Just throwing this out there, but if the evasion abilities were added to evasion clause, then said pokemon would have to be banned from every single metagame (No Garchomp in Ubers ). The fact that people would want to go as far as removing say, Garchomp from Ubers in Gen IV, or Sandshrew/Cacnea from LC disgusts me.

Garchomp's not on my hit-list until Ferrothorn, who has completely centered the metagame around himself and made an ass-load of Pokemon nonviable, is out. I may not like Water-types & specifically Rain, but I'm calling Ferro out for threatening Variety & Balance of the metagame, parts of the Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.

Am I the only one who thinks banning Ferrothorn might have some consequences?

The only useful moves they lose are Stealth Rock, Ice Punch, Focus Punch, Superpower, Sleep Talk, Signal Beam, & Trick. When was the last time you saw SR Garchomp anyway?

Proud supporter of Defensive Chomp.

Also, I wouldn't even consider running WA Cacturne due to all the shit it loses (You COMPLETELY invalidate NP Sets by removing Giga Drain and Dark Pulse, and SD has to run Brick Break of all things for Steels).

 

[Katakiri]

Am I the only one who thinks banning Ferrothorn might have some consequences?

Just TALKING about banning Ferro might have consequences. (Mainly rage) But it's a legitimate topic of discussion. He's #1 in usage, the metagame is completely centered around Ferrothorn possibly even more than it is Weather, he makes Pokemon and even play-styles completely nonviable. (Looking at you Traditional Rain Dance)

Banning him will certainly be a buff to Rain teams, but Ferro is a far bigger issue. And if Rain somehow becomes out-of-control like it was when Swift Swim was legal, then the next step should be obvious.

But for now...yeah. Ferrothorn. He's a serious topic regardless of how much you might want to avoid it.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

At this point I feel that Ferrothorn is just glue, holding together all the broken pokemon into a Pseudo-Balance (and I am pretty sure that has been discussed in this thread as well).

He checks everything that is broken, but he also limits choices all together. If he is banned, it would result in a cascade of bans from other pokemon in which he checks. Part of me wants him to go, and let this cascade of bans go through... Get rid of Ferrothorn, and get rid of a bunch of major threats he counters/checks. I am bored of the same teams. But I also don't want to see people bitch forever about 6 months of suspect testing (or more).

 

[Yoshiken]

To be fair, Ferrothorn has pretty glaring weaknesses - Fire/Fighting in a metagame with some damn powerful Fire and Fighting types. Not to mention Taunt/Magic Bounce shuts him down quite well.
The counters are out there, he's just used that much because he checks/counters a lot of very good offensive threats (anything running Outrage, for a start). I wouldn't say he's broken, given the number of obvious counters to him, just... he's pretty damn good.

 

[Benlisted]

To be fair, Ferrothorn has pretty glaring weaknesses - Fire/Fighting in a metagame with some damn powerful Fire and Fighting types. Not to mention Taunt/Magic Bounce shuts him down quite well.

Imo the reason for the surge in Fire moves and to a lesser extent Fighting and Fire types is in no small part down to Ferrothorn. Simply put, Fire is by far the easiest way to get rid of him, so things which normally were content to hit Steels with neutral Water or Electric moves for instance now carry HP Fire or similar to deal with it.

Slowbro's Flamethrower is to an extent to help with Ferro, and Latios' HP Fire is most certainly for that. Similarly, TTar now runs Fire moves a whole lot more than he used to run Superpower because it primarily is more useful for Ferro.

I'm just trying to make people think whether the degree to which use of moves to counter pretty much solely Ferro is an example of centralisation, as personally I'm unsure.