np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Azure Demon]

Glenn Passive damage fucks up any pokemon man.

What if latios tricks the chancey a scarf or spec? That's one time you will wish you didn't bring in Chancey on a latios now your wall is crippled and he can trick your evolite (I'm assuming that's what chancey is running Theorymon I know) to something else and cripple it.

As for rachi I promise you Rachi doesn't want to eat a HP fire from a speced or even life orbed Latios.

 

[chrisrandom9]

Am I the only one who finds Latios, like, the lesser of the threats?

Sure, he can Draco Meteor or whatever any of your Pokemon to hell. Then he'll either

a) be forced to switch thanks to a Choiced move, retaining all passive damage
b) have lost almost 1/3 of his health thanks to Life Orb + passive damage, and be forced to switch out anyway since he's facing a faster enemy
c) failed to KO and has to switch out, taking with it any passive damage because they switched in a fucking Chansey or Jirachi. Seriously, don't even bring this guy out if they have either.

If I'm gonna use something that has to switch in and out every time I'd rather use some guy that resists SR, is immune to Sandstorm, isn't so vulnerable after it moves, has better dual STAB, etc.

The only real use I've found for this guy is to hold on a Scarf and revenge kill troublesome stuff. Just like... Weavile did in 4th gen, lol.

Agreed, although it can rip serious holes if unprepared. Most of the time though I just wall it or use it as set up fodder once it's at -2 or -4

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Can we stop using Trick as an example of something that 'stops your counter' because you could easily say that for a lot of special attackers. Not to mention that Trick is generally a one time use, so it comes down to "eliminating your counters by playing Pokemon." Lati user has to think when it's the right time to use Trick and the Blissey/Chansey user has to be wary of that possibility. So we're back to square one...battling and predicting.

Actually let's stop talking about Latios altogether. Chances are the second you're at -2, in comes a Volcanora or Scrafty or (insert random sweeper) and could fuck up your whole team. Using Latios on your team means you probably one less counter for multiple threats.

Just fucking play the battle.

 

[SJCrew]

Oh no! There isn't a pokemon that can switch into latias!

So what? It's already been established in previous discussion threads that not all pokemon need to have counters. What matters more is checks. As long as a pokemon has a decent amount of "competitively viable" checks, then it's not overpowered.

No, that's just a bad argument used by anti-ban groups who don't feel something is broken and can't even come up with a proper explanation for it. Checks are just incredibly shitty arguments against brokenness to begin with because they're not even required to switch in - which is an element of strategy the game absolutely depends on.

Let me reiterate: 'Counters don't matter anymore' is a terrible argument because it completely denies an integral element of the game.

Hope I placed enough emphasis on that. If you see a Latias, what are you bringing in? Well, it's most likely a Calm Mind Latias, since Latios runs Specs better these days. Send in Ferrothorn. Oh no, it has reflect. Send in Blissey with Toxic. The rare Choice Specs? Send in Jirachi, Metagross, or Brozong.

It's not that Latias doesn't have counters and we're just not giving a fuck, because I'm pretty sure someone would have noticed by now. It's that Latias does have counters and they're all competitively viable Pokemon we're liable to use every game regardless of whether or not she exists. It's her brother that's the problem, considering he hits harder than God and can screw over a lot of his counters simply by predicting well and overpowering them. Prediction may be a two-way street, but I do recall getting hit by HP Fire a lot even if I don't brainlessly switch in my Ferrothorn.

The next time you want bring out your go-to argument of 'this is 5th gen, we don't need counters anymore' then explain to me what the fuck we're trying to do in teambuilder to cover our ass against these threats, and why one or two Pokemon are allowed to not have counters when basically the entire rest of the game (not located in the Uber tier) does?

We need counters because the game depends on them. Letting Pokemon die to get our check in is going to cost you more games than making sure the biggest threat to your team has a counter. It doesn't matter if you can't counter everything at once, it just matters that you can counter what's necessary.

Also agreeing with the argument about Trick. The first thing some players do is Trick away their Choice Specs from Latios which makes it instantly less threatening. Oh no, my Blissey has Choice Specs. But it still has Ice Beam and walls your Latios forever?

 

[SlimMan]

In saying that policy can be changed as easily as a few offhand words, you are saying that policy can be changed on a whim. What I am saying is that policy was not changed by Phillip's words in the suspect threads. Unless you can prove evidence to the contrary, cease this farce.

"as easily as a few offhand words" is you, once again pulling "quotes" out of your ass. I didn't even think we were still arguing about that.
Anyway, regardless of whether it became "official" policy or not, for you to just throw it to the garbage because it wasn't voted on is completely ridiculous. Furthermore, you are equally unable to prove your point (and don't bring up your hackneyed "there was no vote"), as you also lack any "evidence" whatsoever.

The fact that you used the wrong definition of "unique" was not the point. It was a matter that needed to be addressed in order to get to the actual point.

Actually, I slightly misused special, not unique. Get it right. :P
But which word it doesn't matter, because you basically said nothing with this.

The only reasoning Aldaron presented for some weather-abusing abilities being special was how much they were changed by the presence of weather-inducing abilities, a quality shared among all weather-abusing abilities. There is nothing in anything that he said that indicates that it also only mattered because of the change in speed, just that at the time, that change in speed was the only difference that he felt the need to address. But enough about this. If you want to insist that Aldaron meant one specific thing and could not possibly have meant anything else, have him come in here and say so.

I never made an argument for the doubled speed, I merely stated that someone could.
Anyway, there is also nothing in what he said to imply that he meant for other complex bans. You're merely assuming that he did, which is precisely what you accuse me of doing. Hypocrisy, much? You're just as lacking in the knowing-what-he-meant department as anyone else here.

The thread in which Aldaron made his proposal was not titled "Aldaron's proposal". In his post, he used variations of the word "proposal" three times, and they were all referring to a ban, not a change in policy. Nowhere was it stated that the proposal was everything Aldaron said; rather, it appears that Aldaron's proposal was the ban on Swift Swim + Drizzle, nothing more. Everything else was his own reasoning as to why it would work. Therefore, this is the only thing we know the voters intentionally voted on.

tl;dr
I exaggerated to make a point. You're pissed about it. You think hyperbole has no place in this thread.
Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Thorhammer]

"as easily as a few offhand words" is you, once again pulling "quotes" out of your ass. I didn't even think we were still arguing about that.
Anyway, regardless of whether it became "official" policy or not, for you to just throw it to the garbage because it wasn't voted on is completely ridiculous. Furthermore, you are equally unable to prove your point (and don't bring up your hackneyed "there was no vote"), as you also lack any "evidence" whatsoever.

That wasn't a quote; it was an observation. You're saying that it became policy because Phillip said it in a specific instance, and that instance was a few offhand words.

Nowhere in Smogon's policy is such a policy change permitted without a vote. And I'm not the one who needs to provide proof here. I'm saying something could be allowed, as far as we know; you're saying it's definitely not allowed. We don't have equal stances, and we don't have equal burdens to prove.

Actually, I slightly misused special, not unique. Get it right. :P
But which word it doesn't matter, because you basically said nothing with this.

This particular line of the conversation never had a point in the first place. It looks like we're done with it.

I never made an argument for the doubled speed, I merely stated that someone could.
Anyway, there is also nothing in what he said to imply that he meant for other complex bans. You're merely assuming that he did, which is precisely what you accuse me of doing. Hypocrisy, much? You're just as lacking in the knowing-what-he-meant department as anyone else here.

As far as we know, Aldaron has made no such argument. And certainly, as far as the voters knew

Again, I am not claiming to have proof of anything. If we're in agreement that we don't know what may or may not be permissible, then we're exactly where we were before you jumped in, and your intrusion and sidetracking of this conversation hasn't had the slightest point.

tl;dr
I exaggerated to make a point. You're pissed about it. You think hyperbole has no place in this thread.
Physician, heal thyself.

I'm not pissed about any exaggeration in that point, because I wasn't aware of it, and I still don't see how it could fit in. I have no objections to any hyperbole as long as the actual point is still possible to understand. That isn't the case here, so please clear up what you mean.

 

[SlimMan]

That wasn't a quote; it was an observation. You're saying that it became policy because Phillip said it in a specific instance, and that instance was a few offhand words.

That's not what I meant, and if you interpreted it as such then I must not have been very clear. As I said in my last post, it may or, more likely, may not be the technical policy. But Philip (or rather, reach) does have the ability to, in extreme circumstances, decide matters. That, and the fact that they lead Smogon policy, mean that your idea of utterly ignoring their words is foolish. Perhaps it's not really a "rule" per se, but if you're gonna act like it shouldn't even be considered at all, like he (or should I say she) can't exert a little influence on things like that, then you're prolly a bit too parochial for me to keep arguing with.

A good analogy would be an executive order (United States talk). An executive order is issued by the President, and it is not a law. Only Congress may pass laws. However, an executive order is like a pseudo-law almost. Those whom it concerns (usually military) do it because there's an understanding that he's the leader, and he's swaying things, that he's making a "not-a-rule rule". Am I making sense here?

Nowhere in Smogon's policy is such a policy change permitted without a vote. And I'm not the one who needs to provide proof here. I'm saying something could be allowed, as far as we know; you're saying it's definitely not allowed. We don't have equal stances, and we don't have equal burdens to prove.

I'd say we have equal stances/burdens. This whole round, and last round, you've pushed for a complex ban on Sand Veil + Sand Stream. You've said that our previous complex ban justifies it, and that it's the only possible solution that offers no soft bans.
I'd say it's pretty obvious that your whole SV+SS campaign has been based off the assumption that it's definitely allowed, not that it could be allowed.
Don't pretend that you think it could be allowed. You've argued that it is probably even more than I've argued that it isn't.
Therefore, since there's no "official voted-on" policy, neither of us can be proven right. Proof, in our case, is irrelevant.

You do realize that this argument started about a Pokemon+ability, right? It didn't start out as Ability+ability, and I'm not sure where it turned into that.

This particular line of the conversation never had a point in the first place. It looks like we're done with it.

Ceasing to argue about nothing? Sounds good to me.

As far as we know, Aldaron has made no such argument. And certainly, as far as the voters knew.

I don't understand to what you are referring with this. Because it seems unrelated to the quote you put it under, so I don't know what point it is about.

Again, I am not claiming to have proof of anything. If we're in agreement that we don't know what may or may not be permissible, then we're exactly where we were before you jumped in, and your intrusion and sidetracking of this conversation hasn't had the slightest point.

I'd just like to say that this thread isn't an exclusive night club. There's really no such thing as an "intrusion" (or a "sidetracking", given that when I entered this thread I was on the topic currently being discussed: Blaziken).

Anyway, neither of us have solid proof. We agree on that. However, I have the opinion of our head of policy (at the time) while you have nothing. It may not be solid proof, it may be inadmissible as a policy, but it's more than you have.

I actually have had a point, which is that it can be inferred that Pokemon+ability bans aren't allowed. I have a weaker point that any further complex bans shouldn't be allowed. If I don't have one, then you certainly don't either, as yours also lacks proof and is arguably worse-defended than mine.

I'm not pissed about any exaggeration in that point, because I wasn't aware of it, and I still don't see how it could fit in. I have no objections to any hyperbole as long as the actual point is still possible to understand. That isn't the case here, so please clear up what you mean.

I am unable to come up with an explanation more coherent than that which I have given. If it's as incoherent as you make it out to be, then my lack of clarity in the matter will likely kill the argument right here.

 

[IcyMan28]

Can we stop using Trick as an example of something that 'stops your counter' because you could easily say that for a lot of special attackers. Not to mention that Trick is generally a one time use, so it comes down to "eliminating your counters by playing Pokemon." Lati user has to think when it's the right time to use Trick and the Blissey/Chansey user has to be wary of that possibility. So we're back to square one...battling and predicting.

Actually let's stop talking about Latios altogether. Chances are the second you're at -2, in comes a Volcanora or Scrafty or (insert random sweeper) and could fuck up your whole team. Using Latios on your team means you probably one less counter for multiple threats.

Just fucking play the battle.

Quoted for truth. This way, those who conveniently overlooked such a blatant and solid response to their arguments will have the chance to see it again.

The fact is, Latios has enough checks to the point where it does not stand out of its own merit. In fact, I firmly believe the only reason Latios is debated is bacause it has that "former Uber" status still stamped onto its forehead, so people toss around the word "overcentralized" as if it has meaning and counts as a valid argument against an OU Latios. I'm not going to list the number of pokemon that can reliable check Latios, as well as those that Latios simply cannot set up or switch in on - a simple control + F should do that quite nicely.

When it comes down to it, Draco Meteor is the only threatening move Latios can wield, and it comes with a serious drawback. All of its other moves are coverage moves that it needs to have in order to succeed. Taking advantage of that is all too easy.

 

[Glen ^^]

Glenn Passive damage fucks up any pokemon man.

Not really. Sweepers that aren't forced out easily and often carry Leftovers barely cares for passive damage. Garchomp is probably the main example of it.

 

[Azure Demon]

Not really. Sweepers that aren't forced out easily and often carry Leftovers barely cares for passive damage. Garchomp is probably the main example of it.

3 layers of spikes mixed with 2 toxic spikes? I think chomp does mind.lol

 

[Shiny Crobat]

No, that's just a bad argument used by anti-ban groups who don't feel something is broken and can't even come up with a proper explanation for it. Checks are just incredibly shitty arguments against brokenness to begin with because they're not even required to switch in - which is an element of strategy the game absolutely depends on.

Let me reiterate: 'Counters don't matter anymore' is a terrible argument because it completely denies an integral element of the game.

Hope I placed enough emphasis on that. If you see a Latias, what are you bringing in? Well, it's most likely a Calm Mind Latias, since Latios runs Specs better these days. Send in Ferrothorn. Oh no, it has reflect. Send in Blissey with Toxic. The rare Choice Specs? Send in Jirachi, Metagross, or Brozong.

It's not that Latias doesn't have counters and we're just not giving a fuck, because I'm pretty sure someone would have noticed by now. It's that Latias does have counters and they're all competitively viable Pokemon we're liable to use every game regardless of whether or not she exists. It's her brother that's the problem, considering he hits harder than God and can screw over a lot of his counters simply by predicting well and overpowering them. Prediction may be a two-way street, but I do recall getting hit by HP Fire a lot even if I don't brainlessly switch in my Ferrothorn.

The next time you want bring out your go-to argument of 'this is 5th gen, we don't need counters anymore' then explain to me what the fuck we're trying to do in teambuilder to cover our ass against these threats, and why one or two Pokemon are allowed to not have counters when basically the entire rest of the game (not located in the Uber tier) does?

We need counters because the game depends on them. Letting Pokemon die to get our check in is going to cost you more games than making sure the biggest threat to your team has a counter. It doesn't matter if you can't counter everything at once, it just matters that you can counter what's necessary.

Also agreeing with the argument about Trick. The first thing some players do is Trick away their Choice Specs from Latios which makes it instantly less threatening. Oh no, my Blissey has Choice Specs. But it still has Ice Beam and walls your Latios forever?

Apparently not?

 

[OmgWtfBoom]

I'm looking for a ban on both Drizzle and Drought. x)

 

[Pallas Athena]

I'm looking for a ban on both Drizzle and Drought. x)

Politoed isn't top ten and ninetales isn't top twenty. I presume your fine with the much, much more common sand?

 

[Glen ^^]

3 layers of spikes mixed with 2 toxic spikes? I think chomp does mind.lol

It's ten times more likely you'll have to deal with SR + Sandstream than Spikes AND Toxic Spikes.

Also take into account that Latios loses to the four more common SR users (Ferro, Chansey, TTar, Jirachi).

 

[Aura Guardian]

It's ten times more likely you'll have to deal with SR + Sandstream than Spikes AND Toxic Spikes.

Also take into account that Latios loses to the four more common SR users (Ferro, Chansey, TTar, Jirachi).

Ferrothorn: HP Fire, yeah!
TTar: Surf or Draco Meteor, and TTar will be rather damaged at the end of that battle. Also, how often does it run Pursuit? Switching out works.
Chansey: Switch to a physical attacker (Excadrill, perhaps [Ground type or not caring about TWave important, Steel or Poison useful]) or Trick.
Jirachi: HP Fire, Trick (situational)

None of those are foolproof. Just saying. Though Latios, in my experience using it and occasionally having it used against me, is perfectly manageable.

 

[SlimMan]

@ AuraGuardian:
Sp Def TTar is 3HKOed by Specs-boosted Surf. Latios gets owned by Crunch/Pursuit.
Chansey gets screwed by Trick, but it'll still wall Latios to hell and back, as others pointed out.
Sp Def Jirachi is 3HKOed by HP Fire, and it can paralyze you with Body Slam. See Chansey for Trick.

I agree that it's manageable, but you just picked 3 hard counters to it. Try different examples next time.

 

[Aura Guardian]

@ AuraGuardian:
Sp Def TTar is 3HKOed by Specs-boosted Surf. Latios gets owned by Crunch/Pursuit.

I forgot to say non-specially defensive. But it can't switch in unless it likes taking heavy damage (down to ~40% HP at the end of it, if it tries). Also, I only rarely see Pursuit, so I'm going to maintain that Latios can switch out to something better at taking TTar's attacks. Also, by going specially defensive, you're giving up attack power, so other things can muscle their way through. On the other hand, if it doesn't switch in, then you let Latios get semi-free attacks.

Chansey gets screwed by Trick, but it'll still wall Latios to hell and back, as others pointed out.

And be unable to wall much more than Latios/other Special Attackers. Recovery: dramatically reduced. Without Eviolite, Chansey is just a worse Blissey. Also, if Chansey has Eviolite, then Latios has the potential to hurt another member of your team with another Trick.

Sp Def Jirachi is 3HKOed by HP Fire, and it can paralyze you with Body Slam. See Chansey for Trick.

Sp Def Jirachi, yes. But if it tries to switch in, all it takes is switching to something that doesn't mind the paralysis attempt. EDIT: wait, just looked it over. Best set that I can see, so I agree that Jirachi is a good answer to Latios. However, if you switch in, then there is a 40% chance of loosing that match-up on turn 3. Not factoring in Critical Hits. And it ends up worse off than TTar, generally.

I agree that it's manageable, but you just picked 3 hard counters to it. Try different examples next time.

I was explaining why the "counters" weren't perfect. Either they can be beaten one way, or they need to run a defensive set to counter it - and thus render themselves vulnerable to other forms of attack.

 

[Ewil]

Everyone runs special defense in primis to counter Latios (at the begining) and now special defense based mons like Jirachi or Scizor are standard and very commons in the ladder.
Latios is (sometimes) unpredictable. I found a DD based Latios, standard specs, scarfed, life orb, screeners+memento, the answer to it is always my Sdef Jirachi.

I'm really undecided if latios is top-tier or ban-worthy because it can centralize the special defending side of a team on to it but is really manageble now.

 

[alphatron]

Specially defensive spectacular platinum street fighter arcade edition tyranitar is the only tyranitar build that people use.

Was I the only one who ran psycho shock on Latios when I used him? It's a guarenteed 2HKO (factoring in SS to negate leftovers AND rocks). You don't throw the move around when tyranitar or Scizor are afoot, but still.

As for Jirachi, I ran Latios on a sun team back in round 2. Maybe I should start doing so again, as that pokemon is an easy 2HKO.

 

[ensoriki]

Victini doing it for me, just kills stuff and switch him out.

 

[SlimMan]

I forgot to say non-specially defensive. But it can't switch in unless it likes taking heavy damage (down to ~40% HP at the end of it, if it tries). Also, I only rarely see Pursuit, so I'm going to maintain that Latios can switch out to something better at taking TTar's attacks. Also, by going specially defensive, you're giving up attack power, so other things can muscle their way through. On the other hand, if it doesn't switch in, then you let Latios get semi-free attacks.

Sp Def MixTar is the most common set right now, and a lot of of them do have Pursuit, though not all.
I'm unsure, but I think CB Tar is the second most common, who can take a hit and KO Latios with Pursuit even if it doesn't switch (sometimes even without SR).
ScarfTar is rare, but we can't forget the surprise OHKO it nabs on Latios w/ Crunch.

And be unable to wall much more than Latios/other Special Attackers. Recovery: dramatically reduced. Without Eviolite, Chansey is just a worse Blissey. Also, if Chansey has Eviolite, then Latios has the potential to hurt another member of your team with another Trick.

Walling Special Attackers is what Chansey does anyway, so your point is somewhat moot.
I admit, Latios can ruin Chansey, but it has no way of defeating a Chansey switch-in, barring Trick+Psycho Shock, which would be dumb anyway, given the terrible coverage Psychic moves have on a Choice set.

Sp Def Jirachi, yes. But if it tries to switch in, all it takes is switching to something that doesn't mind the paralysis attempt. EDIT: wait, just looked it over. Best set that I can see, so I agree that Jirachi is a good answer to Latios. However, if you switch in, then there is a 40% chance of loosing that match-up on turn 3. Not factoring in Critical Hits. And it ends up worse off than TTar, generally.

How the hell is Jirachi "worse off" than anything. It can heal itself by using Wish as Latios switches out. And if Latios stays in for the 3HKO, it gets paralyzed, probably fails to kill Jirachi (Wish +Protect), and is now a useless Latios.

You keep saying that "all it takes is switching in something to take advantage of TTar/Jirachi/Chansey", which makes me think that you don't know what a counter is.

I was explaining why the "counters" weren't perfect. Either they can be beaten one way, or they need to run a defensive set to counter it - and thus render themselves vulnerable to other forms of attack.

Those counters are perfect. Latios cannot beat any of them by itself, and they all run (viable) defensive sets as their most common one anyway.

Also, how does running a defensive set make them "vulnerable to other forms of attack"? If anything, it makes them less vulnerable to attacks.

 

[alphatron]

^Except aside from Tyranitar, they aren't perfect counters at all.

50% - 58.8% is the amount 252/252 bold Blissey takes from psycho shock.

69.8% - 82.7% is the amount 252/252 Calm Jirachi takes from Sunboosted Hidden Power Fire. (if sunlight is up at all).

I'm not saying that the latios user is perfect and knows exactly what you're going to do at all times, but calling them perfect latios counters would be like calling heatran and magnezone the perfect counters to Choice Band Scizor.

 

[SlimMan]

^Except aside from Tyranitar, they aren't perfect counters at all.

50% - 58.8% is the amount 252/252 bold Blissey takes from psycho shock.

We weren't discussing Blissey, and I never claimed it was one. Chansey is 3HKOed by that same Psycho Shock, allowing to T-Wave you, then use Softboiled.

69.8% - 82.7% is the amount 252/252 Calm Jirachi takes from Sunboosted Hidden Power Fire. (if sunlight is up at all).

Well, duh, sun support. With sun support, Slowbro didn't counter SD/Protect Blaziken. And yet, Slowbro was considered a counter to that set, despite the fact that it couldn't in specific scenarios Why should it be different for Latios?
Also, Sand/non-weather is in what, almost 80% percent of battles?
Besides, Jirachi is a check even in sun.

I'm not saying that the latios user is perfect and knows exactly what you're going to do at all times, but calling them perfect latios counters would be like calling heatran and magnezone the perfect counters to Choice Band Scizor.

The difference is that CB Scizor alone can eliminate Heatran and Magnezone. All it needs is good prediction.

Latios alone cannot eliminate any of those three pokemon; it requires significant team support (using a Drought team) to eliminate one, and it has to rely on teammates completely to get rid of the other two.

 

[alphatron]

We weren't discussing Blissey, and I never claimed it was one. Chansey is 3HKOed by that same Psycho Shock, allowing to T-Wave you, then use Softboiled.

Whoops. Misread and thought I saw Blissey mentioned. Yeah, Chansey works fine as a counter.

Well, duh, sun support. With sun support, Slowbro didn't counter SD/Protect Blaziken. And yet, Slowbro was considered a counter to that set, despite the fact that it couldn't in specific scenarios Why should it be different for Latios?
Also, Sand/non-weather is in what, almost 80% percent of battles?
Besides, Jirachi is a check even in sun.

Except for the fact that Slowbro STILL countered SD/Protect Blaziken in sunlight. You're thinking of Mixken, who 2HkO'd Slowpro with LO Sunboosted Fire Blast.
Mind you, while HP Electric still 2HKO'd Slowbro, getting 2HKO'd by sun boosted fire blasts freed up blaziken's hp slot for another element. This would not have been possible if not for sunlight.

And yes, jirachi is still a check under the sun. I'm not denying that.

The difference is that CB Scizor alone can eliminate Heatran and Magnezone. All it needs is good prediction.

Latios alone cannot eliminate any of those three pokemon; it requires significant team support (using a Drought team) to eliminate one, and it has to rely on teammates completely to get rid of the other two.

In the case of Chansey and Tyranitar...yeah. I can't say the same with Jirachi though.

 

[adman2]

Not really so much about Latios or the immediate suspects, but I would like to get in a word about Salamence's future and present in OU.

Do not use Choice Specs Salamence. I've tried it for a few battles, and I have several reasons why it's bad now. Everyone uses priority moves, and Salamence will be worn down quickly by them in addition to Stealth Rock damage. 100 base Speed without boosts just isn't good anymore with all the fast Pokemon around that can kill it (a long list; Thundurus and Latios especially come to mind). Even with Intimidate, it's hard to get it in safely.

If you're going to use Salamence properly, you will have to use either a Dragon Dance set or some weird Scarf surprise set. This should make it more predictable without one of its threatening 4th gen sets and less likely to be banned in the future.