Melee Mewtwo got it right, I got the reqs during this suspect test and then stopped playing for a good week or so, due to not enjoying the metagame with the absence of sleep clause. Today I was bored so I started experimenting a bit, which resulted in me losing the rating.^ absolutely NOT. Sorry Blue Jay, but that is not acceptable. You need to get requirements DURING the suspect round so we would know you have knowledge of the metagame. Otherwise, I could just post a peak repeatedly over and over again.
Except my sleep talk Dialga just took out 2 Pokemon in a span of one game while being asleep (or knocked out?).Keep in mind that with BW mechanics that Dark Void and Spore basically are OHKO moves..
poppy said:This just brings us back to the point many have raised throughout the thread - do we go for a metagame wherein we attempt to unban anything that is 'not broken'? Or a metagame which we find to be enjoyable and diverse (without modifying it too heavily, as we are metagaming, not creating a new game). You will find that a lot of people enjoy the current diversity of Ubers so making it into such a narrow tier might not be the best of ideas, regardless of how philosphically sound it is.
So in RBY they give away free turns. Good to know.Nah, I prefer even RBY sleep over Gen V because I know that any amount of free turns I spend asleep is getting me closer to waking up (and thus having full control of my Pokemon). Gen 5 is a huge gamble for low sleep turns since nobody good is going to give you 2 or more consecutive free turns without significant drawbacks.
The reason for keeping the clauses may be the same, but it's apples and oranges after that. OHKO was maintained because it was an extremely uncompetitive method of play, which took away from the fun and skill involved in the game.The reasoning is similar to why we voted to maintain OHKO clause.
@Focus, "No Sleep Clause is dumb." is a poor argument, lol, but I'd rather have that than several 1000-words posts which basically amount to the same. There are people here who seem to hate Sleep with a passion.
There are a lot of counterpoints to be made here.It baffles me that retaining Sleep Clause seems to have so much support at this point, especially with so many players getting voting reqs this round. I'm not sure whether it's just that people are starting to have more free time around this time of the year or what, but it wasn't hard to get reqs (compared to the other rounds). It was much easier to exploit this metagame than previous ones in my experience; lack of Sleep Clause did not make the metagame significantly more luck-based. With all the Darkrai spam lately you would think that if this metagame were more luck-based, then only the persistent few would make reqs at all. Instead, at least 47 different alts in the top 100 have an expected win percentage of over 90%. Compare this to only 10 different alts with GXE over 90 for the Evasion Clause test, and Evasion moves were considered so much of a non-factor that Evasion Clause was removed. It just boggles my mind that the argument is being made that Sleep Clause is necessary for the metagame when it just seems so obvious to me that it isn't.
The other main concern is that no Sleep Clause means a worse metagame. Remember that this is the Ubers, not OU. In principle, it should not matter how centralized a new threat makes the metagame. That is not a valid reason for retaining a ban in Ubers, especially one as awkward as the Sleep Clause. The threat of Sleep moves are already shown to be mitigated by means other than a clause, so that's why it looks like people just don't want to deal with Darkrai, et al. However, the beauty of Ubers to me is that there can still be perfectly competitive with complete disregard to how threats can dominate the metagame.
I realize that the purpose of these suspect tests is to try to be as objective as possible to determine something as subjective as whether a clause needs to stay or go. All I want is that you, the voters, try to rationalize why objectively you think Sleep Clause should or shouldn't stay. If you haven't done so already, I urge you to try laddering with both a Sleep-abuse team and also a team that is well-prepared (heck, maybe even overly-prepared) to handle Sleep. I'm just worried that most voters that vote to retain Sleep Clause will do so just because, well, "No Sleep Clause is dumb."
No you create them. A Chansey/Gengar can't do much against even a sleeping Zam so if you are smart with your double switches you might just be able to wake him up.So in RBY they give away free turns. Good to know.
I've already argued the details, I was trying to respond to his question about the fundamentals for the reasoning behind the ban. These are the same between the two suspect tests so they are justified. (and I would never vote to ban anything for centralization, I didn't even do that when I voted ban for Genesect in OU)The reason for keeping the clauses may be the same, but it's apples and oranges after that.
People don't have to publicly justify the reasoning for their vote in the first place. (and I strongly doubt that was his only line of thought)@Focus, "No Sleep Clause is dumb." is a poor argument, lol, but I'd rather have that than several 1000-words posts which basically amount to the same. There are people here who seem to hate Sleep with a passion.
I don't like this argument much because it distracts from the current discussion. I'd rather substitute it with this post here.This leads to the second point, which you talk about how the the ubers tier is *simply* an OU banlist. This is one of the most god forsaken arguments of all time, and is *incredibly* misled. We have an Ubers tier, ubers tournaments, and an ubers ladder. We have suspect discussions, and a dedicated forum. Not to mention, it has historically been the most balanced tier of all. No matter how you look at it, Ubers is a tier. We don't call it BL 0, also because it has 26 pokemon - check how many the other "banlists" have. With 26 plus some 10-15 viable lower tier pokemon, what do you have? A tier. If we unbanned them all, the new metagame wouldn't be broken because the metagame would basically be Ubers, which isn't broken. This is not the case with unbanning all the pokemon from BL to UU, which would fuck some serious shit up.