np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

Tassa · Jun 17, 2013

At first, I would ask something : when the Keldeo suspect will start (if he start soon after this one at least), will we be able to keep one of our 2 ladders req of this suspect ? depending of the result of the vote, the one which follow this result.

For the OU current, I used a team I made a few week ago, extremely simple and efficient : SpDefCelebi NastyPasser with Psychic, with Heatran (Max SpA/Spe subtoxik, love him) due to the complementarity, and after came to receive the boost our friends Keldeo (E-Belt HP Bug), Landorus (RP), and as a filler, SpDefTar for rocks and general utility and Zor as a filler.
From my experience, Keldeo seems "the better mon" (in a team, it doesn't make totally sense), thanks to the coverage he gets midgame if there is no things like Jelli, and his ability to pull of a sweep if needed at the end. Though, the destructive potential of Landorus is frightening and he's averall so good.

In the OU suspect I replaced him by Scarf Latios after a few try. Some things better, some worse, but to be honnest I won't judge Lando ban-worthy solely due to the difference. That I'm not really able to analyze anyway.
A lot of sun in the OU spect meta anyway, was really annoying.

BKC · Jun 17, 2013

I've been using Protect + Toxic Bronzong and it really pisses off a lot of offensive teams. It's cool for balance, which are a lot more viable without Landorus being a total asshole to them. Just make sure to cover SD Scizor (especially the Acrobatics @ Flying Gem set which is probably the best/most popular atm) that sets up all over it and you're good to go.

On a side note, I have gained 0 points for winning my last ~~three~~ four battles. Help???

Shurtugal · Jun 17, 2013

Yeah BKC I've had that problem happen before too (only, I got +2 instead... ITS MOCKING ME I SWEAR). Anyway, the only way I can fix it is to start a new account. You must have gotten major hax your first two games :(

Halcyon. · Jun 17, 2013

Yeah, I've gotten similar problems, BKC. I stayed at 1914 on one of my alts for 4 straight battles, and then went up by 3 on the next one. This was after going 9-0. I fucking hate suspect laddering...

ShootingStarmie · Jun 17, 2013

I'm also having the same problem in laddering. I went 17-1 in games, and I wasn't even in the 1800 acre bracket. Is there a way we could set the bench mark by having a good win loss ratio? I'm seeing people with a terrible win loss ratio that are making the vote, while people who are facing lower ranked players aren't getting anywhere and wasting time. Is there a way anyone could do anything about this?

Halcyon. · Jun 17, 2013

I'm pretty sure you can apply for a special application if you have a good win/loss ratio and explain why you think you should be allowed to vote.

MikeDawg · Jun 17, 2013

After getting both reqs, I have realized that ttar+keldeo is almost as annoying as ttar+lando+keldeo.

So I will be voting ban in both cases

Freze · Jun 17, 2013

Attained Reqs

About the laddering experience itself. In the OU (current) ladder I had no real problems as can be seen from the win/loss ratio when in comparison to my OU (suspect test) ladder win/loss ratio. This is mainly a factor that I used the same team in both ladders (Kidogo's BPNP Celebi team. Huge props for the team). Keldeo/T-Tar/Lando-I cores were common in the OU (current) ladder, but I did not have any problems with them. My main troubles were in the OU (suspect test) ladder as there was an abundance of Jellicent, which are not in itself a loss to ''my'', by any means, but they are a nuisance to ''my'' team in the hands of the correct player and team support, but enough of the off topic.

This is not saying that Lando/T-Tar/Keldeo cores are bad. Not at all. This core is great. The problem was the skill level of the players. They did not use the opportunities to get a sweep with Lando or Keldeo. When playing against them I saw places where they could have done that and I would have had nothing I could do to stop it due to the nature of the team I was playing and the fact that Lando or Keldeo can come in and set up (or outright sweep without a set up in the case of Keldeo) quite easily.

Based on this I will most probably vote to ban Landorus-I in this vote and ban Keldeo in the next vote, but that vote is neither here nor there. Granted I will be looking at what others have thought and then base my vote on those arguments as well as what I saw for myself.

GGengar · Jun 17, 2013

Ok so if I have a rating of 1860 with a deviation of 92 should i just restart with a new alt?

Halcyon. · Jun 17, 2013

Probably. If I'm below, like 1950, and I have a deviation of under 100, I restart.

Princess Bubblegum · Jun 17, 2013

I am pretty close to getting suspect regs I think.

Is is just me or have you guys been seeing significantly less Scizor on the suspect ladder? I think I might have seen one so far. I am not sure how that tries into Landorus though, maybe as a pursuiter to get rid of Celebi?

GGengar said:
Ok so if I have a rating of 1860 with a deviation of 92 should i just restart with a new alt?

Is that your glicko or regular rating first off.

Freze · Jun 17, 2013

Scarfwynaut said:
Is is just me or have you guys been seeing significantly less Scizor on the suspect ladder?.

I saw a normal amount of Scizor. Maybe slightly less, but nothing really significant.

GGengar · Jun 17, 2013

Scarfwynaut said:
I am pretty close to getting suspect regs I think.

Is is just me or have you guys been seeing significantly less Scizor on the suspect ladder? I think I might have seen one so far. I am not sure how that tries into Landorus though, maybe as a pursuiter to get rid of Celebi?

Is that your glicko or regular rating first off.

Glicko. I got pretty unlucky with some hax and noticed my team was SD Lucario weak and my rating got trashed. Gotta restart then... :l

MMII · Jun 17, 2013

I've been using Scizor myself and seen a couple others. This could be because, with Lando gone, Keldeo has really taken center stage. (having a strong prio to deal with Lando was another incentive for Scizor) Course, it could just be you (and sorta me) that happen to not see as much Scizor.

yee · Jun 17, 2013

I think there is definitely something to it when you're seeing less Scizor on the suspect ladder. Doing test battles in BW1 with Keldeo over a year ago before it was even out, me and friends found Scizor immediately less useful. Just dropping Keldeo in by itself centralized everything so quickly because Rain + Keldeo was that strong, and that type of team needs no help stacking together things that annoy Scizor throughout the game.

ReshiRampage · Jun 17, 2013

How do you know your deviation? I'm new to this stuff
Sorry for being a total noob

MikeDawg · Jun 17, 2013

ReshiRampage said:
How do you know your deviation? I'm new to this stuff
Sorry for being a total noob

It's the number after the plus or minus sign next to the glicko2 rating when you type /rank

On the topic of the meta, I saw 1 sun team, no lando-t, lots of land+keld+tar teams with no lando, a couple rain, and some eevelution teams.

Jobriq · Jun 17, 2013

mehndibuzz

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 152-179 (35.93 - 42.31%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Factor in the chance of FB hitting twice and it's 15% chance to 2HKO after rocks

HP Ice only 3HKO's after rocks

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 121-144 (37.93 - 45.14%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Guaranteed 2HKO if naive Lando
or you can Knock Off lando's LO so he's extra weak

Princess Bubblegum · Jun 17, 2013

Ok got suspect regs, so I guess I will post a staller's insight into this meta.

First off, without Landorus, a lot of your standard Keldeo teams simply don't have the offense to break through stall, which is really nice. Landorus being banned effectively cripples that cookie cutter team style IMO.

I didn't notice a large increase in sun though to be honest as others have suggested, that might just be me though. Instead I saw a ton of Landorus-T, perhaps people are just swapping out one Landorus for another at this point, which could be it. The defensive or Scarf-Landorus most commonly seen is mostly harmless to stall, which was nice.

I didn't see like any rain stall teams for some reason, instead sand seems to be even more prevalent in this meta.

I did notice a little more Magnezone than usual which is a bit troublesome for stall, that could just be people spamming drag-mag for regs though.

I saw like one Alakazam and Gengar, could be just my luck though, I can't see how they are connected to Landorus.

CTC · Jun 18, 2013

i agree that landorus is a powerful threat in this metagame and that many ppl think it may be too powerful for a healthy ou meta. but think about how stally and sluggish the meta would be without its main special output. things like jelly, rachi, forre, ferro, tenta and so on will be so much harder to kill and stall will flourish :{|}
therefore #freelando
support the campaign

Schpoonman · Jun 18, 2013

I really don't think Landorus is the lone factor keeping stall down. *coughfuckin'KyuBcough* Moreover, a perfect metagame would be where every team is viable, and Landorus breaking though stall like it ain't no thang is technically bad for the metagame. I hate stall as much as anything, but it's not a question of whether or not he breaks a particular playstyle, it's a question of whether or not he breaks EVERY playstyle.

George Eliot · Jun 18, 2013

Anyone worried about stall becoming too strong with Lando gone needs a serious reality check. The meta has more than enough tools to utterly destroy any stall team, the only reason stall sees use is because people focus on beating offensive / balanced teams when teambuilding.

Also having the same problem as a lot of people. I'm a relative novice on Showdown (it makes me lag like hell so I prefer PO) but I'm sure I should get more than 4 points from my last 5 battles won.

MMII · Jun 18, 2013

Lol, CTC is just trolling (he had to have some excuse to share that awesome Lando picture).

Anyways, I finished the second half of reqs so I'm going to share my overall impressions.

For reference:

Politoed (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hypnosis
- Surf

Keldeo (Keldeo-Resolute) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Icy Wind

Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower

Garchomp (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Roost
- Surf

I really feel like I tested Keldeo more than Landorus during this suspect test and, as much as I don't like coming into a suspect test with a particular vote in mind, I'll probably be voting to ban it next just because with/without Landorus it is still a monster. The Ebelt set, with minimal prediction, gets a kill at every free turn it gets. Once you are out of faster threats, it just cleans up the team. That said, with Landorus gone more people could focus on just handling Keldeo instead of trying to beat Lando as well. This is why I opted for Gothitelle as my trapper and threw in a Scarf Politoed to mess with other weathers as well as have a stronger Hydro Pump. (I didn't really need it, though, so the weather war wasn't a big concern for me)

Outside of the shift to a very Keldeo dominated metagame, OU didn't change much from the lose of Landorus. There were minor rises/drops as would be expected from any ban but OU remained the same. It is still a giant speed creep (which is why I ended up switching my bulky Specs Goth to a Scarf one as well as fell in love with ScarfToed) and Stall is still going have a hard time, although there is now a gap between Hydreigon and Keldeo and Stall has one less major threat to freak out about. (although, encouraging Gothitelle over Tyranitar isn't good for it either)

That said, I'm still going to ban Landorus and I think the thing that tips me in that direction is just how deadly a Sand Force sweeper set can be. (you could probably get away with just EdgeQuake and run double dance) Landorus is already a pretty dangerous Pokemon, being able to fake out your opponent with a different set of checks/counters to it's sweep is just devastating in my opinion. Besides, OU needs to reduce the amount of offensive threats and it looks like mass banning is the only way we are going to get to that.

X5Dragon · Jun 18, 2013

I don't think smogon wants to banning around entire playstyles all together especially since Rain or Sun by themselves don't win matches.

PK Gaming · Jun 18, 2013

No infractions for now, but if you guys keep bringing it up that might change!

If you watched the recent weather related Smogcast, JabbaTheGriffin touches on why a Drizzle / Drought test couldn't happen--and that's a "couldn't," not a "didn't" which is sadly as much i'll say regarding testing auto weather. It didn't have anything to do with fears of banning an entire playstyle.

np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

Tassa

BKC

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.

Freze

GGengar

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs

Princess Bubblegum

Freze

GGengar

MMII

yee

ReshiRampage

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.

Jobriq

Princess Bubblegum

CTC

I COULD BE BANNED!

Schpoonman

George Eliot

MMII

X5Dragon

PK Gaming

Persona 5

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