NO STATUS

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I'd choose Mega Mawile over Darkrai. Darkrai is fast and strong, like Alakazam, except it can take priorities, including Sucker Punches. With 125 Speed, 135 Special Attack and okay bulk, it's on par with some Mega pokes here, except it isn't a mega. Also because it isn't a mega, it can run Scarf or Life Orb to make it even stronger. So I disagree Darkrai being unbanned.

As for Mega Mawile, it's kinda slow and it'll most likely run three main moves: Iron Head, Play Rough and Sucker Punch. It's a mega, so it obviously takes a mega slot. With only 50 Speed, it's too slow in an offensive metagame and it'll likely spam Sucker Punches which has the same power as LO Bisharp. It's not too bad I think.

 

[Funbot28]

I don't know if bringing Mega Mawile back down was the right thing to do. Even without SD and Substitute, it can still get guaranteed Suckered Punches off, and is nearly impossible to switch into. I think it should remain banned, as with the matches I had so far with it, it completely dominated.

I am for brining back Darkrai and Aegislash however, as mentioned above the lack of Dark Void and King's Shield really hinder them.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'd like to nominate Wobbuffet for S+ rank. This thing is truly terrifying, it's the most defining pokemon in the tier. If you're not running mixed, it's going to get of a huggeee hit on your team, even if you voltswitch out. Shadow tag lets it trap and neutralise a massive amount of pokemon, Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Both Zard forms. All in all the best pokemon in the tier, without a doubt.

I support Charizard-Y to S not really much new that I have on the case, I was initially against it until I learned it gets Dragon tail.

Arcanine to B/B- Arcanine is a nifty offensive check to Charizard, Talonflame, Mawile, Kyurem-B and many more, while it can also run mixed to handle Wobbuffet/Shedinja

Talonflame down to A+

Generally overhyped, I find myself not even thinking about this thing while teambuilding and I still have so many natural checks to it, Lugia checks it and so does Mega Mawile. It also fails to revenge kill with either of its stabs as Wobbuffet just revenge kills it back.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Okay after using Mega Mawile for a while, I think it's... more or less the same when it was in OU. Sure, it can't Swords Dance and it's slow, but aside of Scald or Lava Plume, you can't burn it so it's a pain to handle it. Not to mention it's bulky too, so if you can't kill it, it'll kill you. Even resists gets 2HKO'd. Also PuP + Sucker Punch combo works well, as it's Sucker Punch is exactly as strong as Life Orb Jolly Bisharp's Sucker Punch.

When it was OU, I used to handle it by using Gliscor or other Ground type pokes and predict substitute when it uses Sucker Punch. Or just by burning it with Will-o-wisp. Now you can't do those things so you rely on checking it, which is very hard to do.

The Immortal, if you drop Ubers to test it, I'd say Lugia passed and Mega Mawile failed. Yeah I know I'm the one agree with it at first, but in practice, it's still too strong. I'd be happy if you reban it, as teambuilding is a pain right now because of Mega Mawile (I probably suck at teambuilding, but still, it's easier before Mega Mawile dropped).

But don't get me wrong. I like the idea of testing Ubers. It's just Mega Mawile isn't the right poke now. I don't mind testing pokes like Aegislash, Giratina (not Origin), Deo-S or Darkrai (probably still too strong, but worth a test I think, as it probably have more switch ins than Mega Mawile).

Also, moving Mega Charizard-Y to S. And I'd like to ask for opinions in placement on Mega Mawile's viability ranking if TI didn't ban it. Right now, I'm putting it in S.

Edit: moving down Tornadus-Therian to A+. It's good but not really S worthy and people agreed with me.

 

[Josh]

The reason I feel darkrai wouldn't be broken is because in the past he's proven to be manageable. At least testing would be fair. Ironically, mega maw is a good counter to it, but still ban that bitch. Darkrai's only good coverage moves are dark, poison and fighting really. That really is nowhere near perfect, and has a lot of checks. In general I think it'll be an S rank mon, but not broken.

Aegi is honestly not even gonna be that great if he does drop, kings shield is a huge part of what made him broken. In general he's subpar now.

Blaziken is someone I could potentially see dropping, though that may be argued. Blaziken loses baton pass, protect, sub and swords dance which are 4 very very important moves for it. He has a decent BST of 530, but nowhere near broken. It'll still be a powerful flare blitz/HJK attacker, but it loses a ton of what makes it ubers. Fire and fighting is also terrible SE coverage, perfect neutral coverage bar flash fire though.
*Note: I feel the mega is far too powerful for this meta with a base atk of 160 coupled with the amazing speed, I am not in support of that dropping*

Re-ban mega maw pls ;;

I agree with chopin's idea of testing gira (NOT O PLEASE LORD). It's a mediocre-decent attacker now, without wisp/tox/resttalk/roar etc. It'll also help against wobb as a viable dtailer.

I DO NOT agree with Deo-s being unbanned. Deo-s always had a niche in OU as a very very fast (to the point it outspeeds a lot of common scarfers) revenge killer with LO and the oh-so-powerful psycho boost. It'll simply be too broken for this meta. Blaziken would help neuter it a bit, but it wouldn't be enough imo.


I went throught the whole uber dex and those are the only mons I feel could be considered for unbans, if anyone else wants to look and decide: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/formats/uber/




EDIT: After talking to Chopin Alkaninoff a bit and others, I am on board with testing deo-s. I think it's worth the look at, it's spa really isn't that high.

On the topic of Lando-I, I agree with it being tested but I feel it'll be the most broken one we are testing. Losing it's cm/agility is annoying, but it's still a powerful and decently fast cleaner.

 

[thesecondbest]

I think blaziken is balanced, lacking protect makes him lackluster and the strength is lacking w/o sd. with lugia and giratina, he certainly won't be broken.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I agree for Blaziken to be tested. Without protect or Swords Dance, it doesn't look great I think.

The reason I say unban Deo-S is it's worth to be tested. The fact that some people say it's going to be op, some say it'll not means that we won't know until we try it out. Same for Darkrai. I think it's also worth to be tested too.

Edit: Joshz, I think I can add one more thing that's worth testing: Landorus-I. The reason it was banned is it tears all kinds of playstyles with its moves. Normally, it runs Earth Power, two coverage moves and a Calm Mind for bulky playstyles, Rock Polish for offensive playstyles. The lack of Rock Polish in my eyes is kinda huge because it's the one move that tears offense in OU. Without it, it won't do much to offense, especially in an offensive metagame. It's infamous Life Orb Earth Power is as strong as Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice. So just think of it as a bulkier Mega Gardevoir with worse typing I think. Unlike Mega Mawile, it doesn't have priority, so I think it's better than Mega Mawile at least.

Edit 2: for the classic "no counters" argument, you can say that to Kyurem-Black, Charizard-Y and Hoopa-Unbound. It's the same as them. The difference between them and Mega Mawile is excellent Steel/Fairy typing and Sucker Punch, which still tears Offense because it's as strong as LO Bisharp's.

 

[Mr155551]

The reason I feel darkrai wouldn't be broken is because in the past he's proven to be manageable. At least testing would be fair. Ironically, mega maw is a good counter to it, but still ban that bitch. Darkrai's only good coverage moves are dark, poison and fighting really. That really is nowhere near perfect, and has a lot of checks. In general I think it'll be an S rank mon, but not broken.

Aegi is honestly not even gonna be that great if he does drop, kings shield is a huge part of what made him broken. In general he's subpar now.

Blaziken is someone I could potentially see dropping, though that may be argued. Blaziken loses baton pass, protect, sub and swords dance which are 4 very very important moves for it. He has a decent BST of 530, but nowhere near broken. It'll still be a powerful flare blitz/HJK attacker, but it loses a ton of what makes it ubers. Fire and fighting is also terrible SE coverage, perfect neutral coverage bar flash fire though.
*Note: I feel the mega is far too powerful for this meta with a base atk of 160 coupled with the amazing speed, I am not in support of that dropping*

Re-ban mega maw pls ;;

I agree with chopin's idea of testing gira (NOT O PLEASE LORD). It's a mediocre-decent attacker now, without wisp/tox/resttalk/roar etc. It'll also help against wobb as a viable dtailer.

I DO NOT agree with Deo-s being unbanned. Deo-s always had a niche in OU as a very very fast (to the point it outspeeds a lot of common scarfers) revenge killer with LO and the oh-so-powerful psycho boost. It'll simply be too broken for this meta. Blaziken would help neuter it a bit, but it wouldn't be enough imo.


I went throught the whole uber dex and those are the only mons I feel could be considered for unbans, if anyone else wants to look and decide: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/formats/uber/




EDIT: After talking to Chopin Alkaninoff a bit and others, I am on board with testing deo-s. I think it's worth the look at, it's spa really isn't that high.

On the topic of Lando-I, I agree with it being tested but I feel it'll be the most broken one we are testing. Losing it's cm/agility is annoying, but it's still a powerful and decently fast cleaner.

Kepp in mind Darkrai can still run ice coverage in ice beam psychic coverage in well psychic ghost coverage in shadow ball electric coverage in thunderbolt and yes it can surprise everyone with his his physical coverage like koff sucker punch and rock slide his attack is base 90 so it's still good

edit: oh and i agree on testing blaziken if he proves to be bad we can re-ban him

 

[Freeroamer]

Worth noting Darkrai is essentially Wobb-proof thanks to being immune to Mirror Coat and hitting on the special side which is kinda a major boon. Honestly I think it might be too strong even without Dark Void and Nasty Plot, the two main tools of its trade. It'd probably run Dark Pulse / Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast / filler with the filler being team specific because afaik those first 3 moves hit everything in the game.

Deo-S sounds amazing in theory, but in practice 95 SpA really does not go far enough when you consider it has to run +Spe to beat ScarfChomp and Scarf 100s which is the attraction of its LO set. It's also huge wobb bait as wobb switches into anything it wants to do and then disposes of it. Sucker Punch being everywhere is also a huge detriment to it.

While set up moves were a big part of Lando's attraction, 4 attacks sets were still notorious for breaking teams without Cresselia or Mega Lati's because of their fantastic coverage. Earth Power / Hidden Power Ice / Knock Off / Sludge Wave has very few non-passive switchins. In this metagame don't even need HP Ice because SpDef Gliscor isn't a thing here, allowing you to run more coverage in Psychic or Focus Blast. Idk about this because it's speed tier does really let it down but given a free switch into something it's going to crush you one way or another. It could even run U-Turn to go to Wobb if that's your kind of thing.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

For me the current Zard-Y in No Status acts exactly the same as Landorus-I if it were dropped. Both has nearly the same Speed, has almost no switch ins, has a 4x weakness. One has a bit more physical bulk, one has more Special bulk. Each of them has it's own useful move. One has Knock Off and U-turn that costs your health if you hold Life Orb, the other has the move to raise Speed in Flame Charge to make it harder to revenge, and a Dragon Tail to prevent Wobb from getting kills. To me they both have the same quality on paper even with some differences. That's why I say Landorus-I deserve a test.

For Darkrai, one of my main concern is it's 125 Speed, which I think it's too fast for Offense. While I also agree for Deo-S test, which has 180 Speed, Deo-S being weak to Sucker punch means it's revengable by Bisharp or Honchkrow, while Darkrai isn't. It also has wide movepool and decent defenses. Deserve a retest, but I don't see how this will pass.

Deo-S, as I say, very fast but weak to Sucker Punch. Outspeed Scarfed pokes with base 100 Speed. With 95 offenses, I think this poke is comparable to Lugia. Lugia has all the bulk with Multiscale, while Deo-S has all the Speed. Worth a test I think.

 

[Josh]

I'd like to make 2 nominations for ranks.

1) Dugtrio from B to A-. He is not simply an inferior wobb. He can actually attack, his sash is guaranteed to be kept intact with lack of rocks and immunity to sandstorm (hail rof), and he in general can trap and kill a ton of the meta, especial a ton that wobb has issues with. Having issues with that pesky zard-x? Hello EQ trap. Having issues with maw? EQ does a lot, to kill if weakened and if not then at least enough to make a dent. Having issues with that heatran? Bye. It also has the fastest sucker punch in the game afaik, so even after sash is broken not only does it beat other sucker punches but their punches also fail usually giving you another lease on life. This thing can effectively trap and kill at least half of the A- to S mons, all while actually having an offensive presence unlike wobb.
EDIT: I use him on my team, I can save replays showing this if requested.

2) I would like to nominate Wynaut to go from unranked to C. I believe it deserves C because, well, wynaut?

Hide

One guy on ladder has been demonstrating that it still can kill at least 1 mon every time, and essentially gives you 2 wobbuffets (one obviously better). You'd obviously only run this if you already have wobb. I don't think it should go higher than C+ because it's honestly not amazing, but hey, it works and it's annoying af to face. Trap city!

 

[Akumeoy]

Doublade deserves to have some rank. First and foremost, it is a physically-inclined Ghost-type with Pursuit. It pairs very well with U-Turn users for dealing serious damage to Wobbuffet, as U-Turn and Pursuit should deal serious damage to the punching bag without a chance of retaliation, on top of its natural immunity to trapping in the first place. It also has more defensive merit than any other Ghost-type, with the obviously-fabulous Steel typing and Eviolite-boosted sky-high Physical Defense.

4 Atk Doublade Pursuit vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 128-152 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (on the switch) <<< Shedinja can't do this.

One can opt for a Specially Defensive spread (which can actually tank many weaker Special moves quite well) or a bulky offensive spread (which exploits its Base-110 Attack and pretty solid offensive movepool, namely Shadow Sneak, Shadow claw, Sacred Sword, Pursuit, and Gyro Ball/Iron Head.

Plenty of things carry coverage that can beat Doublade, but often they can't really touch it outside of that coverage, so it works best as a pivot, switching into some moves and then switching out into something that can tank the move that's easy to see coming. Mega Mawile is a good example -- unless M-Mawile runs Foul Play, Doublade can switch into any of its moves and then, having nothing to fear but Sucker Punch, generate another free switch on that predicted Sucker Punch to your check.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Agree with Dugtrio moving up. Unlike Wobbuffet, it's not passive and can actually revenge pokes effectively because of it's high Speed. However, I prefer Dugtrio to B+ than A- because well, it still lacks power.

As for Wynaut, it can be ranked because well, it's another effective trapper.

Edit: also, I don't think Heracross is suitable in B+. I'm thinking of moving it down or remove it if possible. Any thoughts?

 

[Froggyboy]

Mega Ampharos

That's fucking right.

Also why is Kabutops B- while Politoed is C? Surely Kabutops viability relies on Rain being up?

 

[The Immortal]

Looks like the consensus is that Mega Mawile is too much for NO STATUS. Re-banning it.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Removed Mega Mawile from Viability Rankings.

 

[Josh]

I'd like to make a few more nominations.


#1: m-metagross drop to A/A-
Is it good? Definitely. Is it A+ worthy? I don't think so. It's weak to sucker punch, which saks in no status. It's weak to eq, hello dugtrio out speeding for the eq and then using the fastest sucker punch n the meta to outspeed bp and finish it if eq didn't manage to get it. It's OHKO'd by 2 of 3 s mons, who also both conveniently resist bullet punch. As for Wobb, if a mixed megagross is viable I encourage you to show me proof. Otherwise, rip via counter death, with Wobb having around 2 thirds of its HP left to come back and kill something else. Mixed, you're not only weaker but also playing with 50/50s, which is not a good idea. So basically, you lose to all 3 S mons. Aka 3 of the if not the most common mons. A+? I'm on my phone and calcing is a pain so I won't actually show calcs, but if adamant Bisharp and Honchkrow LO sucker punch didn't OHKO I'd be shocked. Lando can come in to intimidate and then proceed to uturn into something thay can take an ice punch (or whatever else they predict). So basically torn is the only A+/S mon it even comes out psotiviely against.
Now don't get me wrong, I do understand it's a gold mon. I just don't think it's an A+ mon.

#2: Shedinja drop to B-. He's just terrible in this meta, because of how much coverage everyone has. I checked, and literally my entire team bar Wobb can hit it, and dug just trapanals it. I encourage you to check how many mons on your team have coverage to hit sheddy, I'm sure it's quite a high number. It's only real niche is a pivot switch and that gets predictable. He's good in theory, but in practice he just doesn't work at least from my experience facing him. Comparing him to the other B mons, he's not in the same league as dug (who should be higher anyways imo), Gengar, hoopa-u, keldeo, mega drill (should be dropped imo but Idc much) and Salamence. In general he's subpar.

#3 Politoed raise C to C+. Drop it in with the other swift swimmers, his niche of being literally required for rain teams (how else to get rain?) is worth it, they can't really play without him.

Unranked mons that should be ranked in my opinion. Some of them I added descriptions.
Thundurus (somewhere in the C's/B's, I'm indifferent)
Ferrothorn, because despite what some people think ferro has a decent atk stat, as well as bulk to take hits. Only issue is mega zard and flame presence being so common. (B's or C+ imo)
Starmie, as a fast and powerful special attacker. (B imo)
Aerodactyl-m, why the hell is this not ranked? It's incredibly fast and powerful, and kind of misses hone claws and roost but it's not usually a huge deal since it ohko's a ton. (A- seems right, because of frailty)
Breloom, loses spore which is annoying but is still a quite capable sash killer, because of rock tomb/bullet seed/mach punch/something like focus punch still being a good attacking set and bullet seed breaking sashes. (C imo, on par with C mons)
Lucario, get's espeed and has decent power/speed, also resists sucker punch/bullet punch/ice shard/espeed which is nice. Powerful stabs as well. (I can see this in B/B+ personally)

There's more as well when I have time. These mons do have niches and aren't completely outclassed, so should be included imo.



On the topic of which Uber to drop next? I'm pretty sure we agree the pool of potential testees(is that a word lol) is deo-s, aegi, blaziken, darkrai, Lando-I and Gira (NO O) (I hope I didn't forget someone like last time). Obviously TI gets to chose which of those he test drops and when. However I'm just going to give my personal opinion. I think aegi should be dropped first, following by deo-s, blaziken, Gira, darkrai and lando-i in that order. I simply chose it based on mons I think are least likely to be broken to the most. Anyways, I'm excited for the drops to see how they effect the meta.



and edit: AllJokesAside
hes currently in B, not A.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Shedinja really isn't all that bad. I'm not going to push it for S, but it's absolutely fine in A. It forces the metagame to run these coverage moves, which makes it easy to play accordingly, and he's good in practise, on par with Tangrowth.

 

[Froggyboy]

Shedinja really isn't all that bad. I'm not going to push it for S, but it's absolutely fine in A. It forces the metagame to run these coverage moves, which makes it easy to play accordingly, and he's good in practise, on par with Tangrowth.

Except it's not really forcing anything to run anything? Let's look at S to A- and see what can hit it.
19 out of the 23 Pokemon there can hit it for super effective damage lol. And none of them are forced to run coverage to beat it. It being in B is being generous, as most things can hurt it because its weak to so many things.
I would honestly push for C+ or even C, as like the definition says, 'These Pokemon can threaten or check some portions of the metagame but often have large flaws that require more support. They often can only perform well in one role as multiple roles will expose their many flaws. They may have more negative traits than positive. These Pokemon have a hard time adapting with the metagame.'
Shedninja fits this description well, as it can wall some things like MegaGross and Lopunny, but outside of that, Shedninja is mediocre.

 

[Akumeoy]

#2: Shedinja drop to B-. He's just terrible in this meta, because of how much coverage everyone has. I checked, and literally my entire team bar Wobb can hit it, and dug just trapanals it. I encourage you to check how many mons on your team have coverage to hit sheddy, I'm sure it's quite a high number. It's only real niche is a pivot switch and that gets predictable. He's good in theory, but in practice he just doesn't work at least from my experience facing him. Comparing him to the other B mons, he's not in the same league as dug (who should be higher anyways imo), Gengar, hoopa-u, keldeo, mega drill (should be dropped imo but Idc much) and Salamence. In general he's subpar.

Ghost-types can't be trapped, so Dugtrio is only an answer if Shedinja wants to stay in.

 

[Ununhexium]

Ghost-types can't be trapped, so Dugtrio is only an answer if Shedinja wants to stay in.

Pursuit Dugtrio duh

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Reason of Politoed in C is, it's there for Rain teams, that's it. Normally, it can run Encore, Toxic, Hypnosis, bulky Resttalk set and Perish Song. Now it can't run any of those moves, which means it's kind of dead weight outside of inducing Rain if you want it to hold a Damp Rock. If you're fine with just 5 turns of Rain, you can make it hold Scarf or something to make it at least throw fast Hydro Pumps or it's coverage moves.

 

[The Immortal]

For the next test, I'm dropping Giratina.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

If anybody needs a set...

Giratina @ Life Orb/Power herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 160 SpA / 96 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Force
- Shadow Sneak
- Aura Sphere

Speed EVs are enough to outspeed Adamant Bisharp and Breloom, though that ladder can't do anything to you.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina Shadow Force vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 281-331 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina Shadow Sneak vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 95-113 (28.6 - 34%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO

160 SpA Life Orb Giratina Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 156-185 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

160 SpA Life Orb Giratina Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 133-159 (37.7 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 315-374 (79.9 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO

160 SpA Life Orb Giratina Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 255-302 (90.7 - 107.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

160 SpA Life Orb Giratina Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 255-302 (79.9 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Hmm is Life Orb worth it? I'm saying this because I actually don't like using Life Orb to a poke with super high bulk like Giratina or Lugia. Everytime it uses a move, it sacrifices it's bulk, which is the point of using Giratina. I'm thinking if Spooky Plate or Choice items would be better. Or well, Colbur Berry to prevent Sucker Punch from doing too much damage. May be useful against Bisharps or Honchkrow, as Giratina has the appropriate moves to hit them for SE damage (Aura Sphere for Bisharp, Thunderbolt or Stone Edge for Honchkrow).

Also The Immortal, you should also mention that you banned Griseous Orb, unless you don't mind people use the Origin forme, which is more poweful.