Nidoqueen Suspect Discussion

[Double01]

K, I took a step back and took another less biased look at nidoqueen. I decided to make a slight comparison between Nidoqueen now and Honchkrow back in Round 3. Now before u say that they are nothing alike, im not comparing them as pokemon or sweepers but rather im comparing them on how they were able limit a certain playstyle at the time.

At the time of round 3 I felt like Honchkrow put hyper-offensive teams at a huge dis-advantage because of its ability to completely destroy HO teams. Reasons such as, powerful priority and then being able to sweep after 1 moxie boost. This is just like how nidoqueen puts stall based teams at a huge disadvantage. I felt forced to run a hard counter to honchkrow, in this case klinklang, to have a hope at beating it. And I always had to make sure i had a team member specifically for dealing with honchkrow whenever I made a HO team. This is like how SilentVerse and DC dont like how they have to always run a hard counter to nidoqueen to have a hope of beating it. I know how annoying it is to reserve a spot just to deal with one specific mon. Please dont tell me that it was quite easy to have a honchkrow check because, although, there were tons of honchkrow counters and checks very few of them were able to fit on a HO team. (The few that i can think of are klinklang who was nu at the time and aggron who wasnt fast enough for a HO team imo) Though these were just checks to the ones that lacked hp ground or heat wave. Thats why i didnt think honchkrow deserved a ban at the time cause basically NO ONE ran mixkrow or hp ground krow. If people did run those sets then of course honchkrow would've been banned imo. Although i did not enjoy having to always carry a hard counter to honchkrow on every HO team i made I felt it was necessary because then Honchkrow would tear through HO teams.

This brings me to nidoqueen, and i think it is very biased of ditto crow saying that offense is the only play style. DittoCrow said that he couldntt play his defensive play style because he always had to make room for 1 hard counter to nidoqueen no matter what he did. But there is nothing wrong if u have to carry a Munchlax or Clefable and being able to incorporate into your team. Yes ik it would be annoying to do so but it is by no means impossible to do so. And i do believe that nidoqueen might be more annoying to stall teams then Honchkrow was annoying to HO because honchkrow had less longevity then nidoqueen does. Remember though my battles took a quarter of the times as stall battles do. But honchkrow was the single largest threat to HO as is Nidoqueen the single largest threat to stall.

I can understand that you are in the minority of players who enjoy running stall and defensive teams as I was in the minority of players who ran HO teams (succesfully at least). As no one at the time ran HO accept me.

In conclusion, I know how frustrating it is to always have to have a certain member of your team just to deal with 1 pokemon but certain playstyles have to make that sacrifice in order to succeed. Being able to adapt to a certain pokemon can be very frustrating if a new threat comes into the mix but your just going to have to adapt your playstyle a little bit to compensate for that pokemon.

P.S.- This comparison might sound really stupid and bad but that is the best way my mind could think about this topic.

 

[Endorfins]

I would like to say that at the moment, I am leaning towards banning Nidoqueen. Its amazing coverage has already been emphasized, and Silentverse raised an important point regarding Nidoqueen. Compared to other powerful special attackers such as Moltres and Magmortar, Nidoqueen is more bulky and most importantly, takes almost no residual damage.

Something else I'd like to say is that while Nidoqueen comfortably breaks down stall teams, it is still very powerful against balanced and even offensive teams. Nidoqueen completely decimates bulkier attackers and support Pokemon that are present on balanced teams, leaving them incredibly exposed to the rest of Nidoqueen's team. Although it can't switch in as easily as it can against stall, it can still obtain numerous switch-in opportunities. Here are some offensive Pokemon that Nidoqueen can switch in on: Accelgor, Cofagrigus, Galvantula, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Lilligant, Magneton, Manectric, Primeape, Rotom-C, Spiritomb, Tangrowth. Of course it has to avoid stuff like Sleep Powder, it can switch in on these Pokemon most of the time. Another interesting aspect about Nidoqueen is it shuts down Volt-turn teams which are another important playstyle in RU, many Volt Switch and U-Turn users are present in the list above.

Some other people have said that Nidoqueen can be predicted around, ie switch in Steelix on Sludge Wave, Mandibuzz on Earth Power. However, many of these resists just get OHKOed after switching in. Prediction also works both ways, I wouldn't call 50/50 odds as to whether you lose a Pokemon reliable at all.

If your team has problems with a major threat, that is no ones fault but your own.

By that logic, if Kyogre entered RU, then its the players fault because their not running Jynx / Ludicolo?
You can judge how centralizing (and broken) a Pokemon is by looking at how its counters are more popular and how Pokemon weak to it are less popular.

Comparison of June and July usage

4 | Drapion | 2333 | 18.335%
14 | Drapion | 2024 | 10.353%

5 | Tangrowth | 1914 | 15.042%
11 | Tangrowth | 2391 | 12.230%

13 | Uxie | 1306 | 10.264%
5 | Uxie | 2774 | 14.189%

25 | Clefable | 1017 | 7.993%
19 | Clefable | 1762 | 9.013%

I'm not saying that this is solely due to Nidoqueen, (although I think Uxie is), nor should they mean Nidoqueen should be banned, but these stats do say something...

 

[sfgiantsfanmike]

Comparison of June and July usage

4 | Drapion | 2333 | 18.335%
14 | Drapion | 2024 | 10.353%

5 | Tangrowth | 1914 | 15.042%
11 | Tangrowth | 2391 | 12.230%

13 | Uxie | 1306 | 10.264%
5 | Uxie | 2774 | 14.189%

25 | Clefable | 1017 | 7.993%
19 | Clefable | 1762 | 9.013%

I'm not saying that this is solely due to Nidoqueen, (although I think Uxie is), nor should

they mean Nidoqueen should be banned, but these stats do say something...

Long time lurker, first time poster. Have really enjoying the conversation so far but haven't had anything until now to add.

When I saw the month to month comparison something tickled in the back of my mind so I looked up Mays usage #'s and looked up Uxie in paticular. He had a 13.x% usage, only marginally lower than July's usage. So the question came to mind: what happened in June to drop his usage?

I can't say for sure but the big event in June was the release of B2/W2 and the Tutors. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that a huge factor in the drop would be a the 'shiny new toy' effect of all the Gen V 'mon getting a bunch of new moves people wanted to try out, meaning 'mon that didn't get much/anything new were set aside for the time being so new combos could be tried out. I'm going to also guess if I where to look that Uxie didn't get much new and so his usage dropped while someone like Moltres who got a major new toy sky rocketed in usage. It would be interesting to see how others, like Druddigon, who got some new toys to play with faired May>June>July that didn't seriouly up their game so much as Moltres.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that a drop for an old mainstay in a month where all the new kids got totally new stuff to play with isn't surprising and that comparing the next month to that month is a bit 'apples to oranges.'

 

[Slory]

Before all Im so bad english. Maybe Im will not explain that I want. Maybe I dont nderstand perfect that you said, but I try to explain right and clear.

First of all Im defensive player like DittoCrow, and like he I enjoy to counter every single common threat in the tier. I usually run stall or defensive-oriented teams. I have tried to make a good defensive-oriented team in this metagame but It is so difficult since Nidoqueen is the tier. Like DittoCrow I use almost all of the listed Pokémon except Musharna, Hypno and Munchlax (I hate this Pokémon D=) and yeah practically are only for checking Nidoqueen and cant do so much. This lets me an disadvantage because if need to run with a pokemon that cant do so much in a battle except counter Nidoqueen. This mean that I practically play 5 vs 6. This lets me only way run a multiple checks the idea of this in a defensive-oriented team sound really bad D:

After read blarajan`s and complete`s post Im not sure about what should think. Before I ever say that Nidoqueen should be banned. As we all know his inmense power combine with a good bulk, good typing and no-recoil from Life Orb makes she #| threat of the tier. Now Im not sure about what I should think. The statements that blarajan argued are reasonable but I desagree with some statements:

On that note, I don't personally think Nidoqueen is broken in the current RU metagame. What, in my opinion, primarily holds it back is its middling Speed. Right now we are discussing a base 76 Speed Pokemon that must use a neutral nature in order to be nearly as effective as she is, so in essence we are discussing to ban or not to ban on a Pokemon with 251 Speed.

I desagree 76 base spped isnt low that it appears. RU isnt a fast metagame; Iknow that most of the common offensive pokemon outspeed Nidoqueen but such SV said Nidoqueen outspeed the majority of the defensive Pokémon in the tier and threaten it easily.

What people seem to want it a foolproof answer to Nidoqueen—something that can switch in on every move all the time. Requiring a hard counter 100% of the time under all situations is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Let's extend this logic to other Pokemon, such as Life Orb Magmortar. Considering a set of: Fire Blast / Thunderbolt / Earthquake / Hidden Power Grass, what exactly can “switch in on every move and avoid a 2HKO” bar Munchlax? Clefable? 2HKOed by Fire Blast. Lanturn? 2HKOed by min Earthquake. Slowking? Thunderbolt. Moltres? Thunderbolt.

Although SV explains really good the differences between Nidoqueen and other walbreakers I want to emphasize that Nidoqueen has a lot of advantages that makes his too diffucult to wear down.

I agree with all SilentVerse said. My final opinion is Ban Nidoqueen.

PD: wow I need to practise much with english this post has led me 1 hour and I think its short D=

 

[jas61292]

By that logic, if Kyogre entered RU, then its the players fault because their not running Jynx / Ludicolo?

I think you are misinterpreting what I meant by that line. It has been said by many people that there are indeed counters to Nidoqueen that are in fact good and viable Pokemon in RU. Not like Jynx or Ludicolo. Actual useful Pokemon. Sure, it might not be the Pokemon a player of a particular team type (stall) would typically pick first, but they are legitimate RU Pokemon. Having to use niche NU Pokemon is a much different thing than what I was talking about.

Basically, what I am saying is that if a Pokemon causes you to use something that is otherwise useless in the tier, it is broken, sure. But if it forces you to use actually useful Pokemon who you just don't happen to like for your team, that does not mean the same thing.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Ok I'm not sure if I can match up to the ridiculously long posts before this one that have continued an insane argument, but I'll try.

First off, I would like to say that I never would have imagined that one Pokemon could cause almost an entire community to go after a user like a pack of wolves...like are you kidding me, it's a fucking Pokemon.

Anyway, time to give my thoughts on this subject. As an offensive player, I can say that Nidoqueen is a good asset to have, but is definitely not broken against offensive teams. It is relatively easy for my team to handle, due to the fact that I can revenge kill it easily and such. Sometimes I also don't have to even sacrifice a Pokemon to it; it just requires prediction. On the defensive side of things, it is harder to say for me because of 2 reasons. 1. I don't use stall or anything of the like in RU. 2. My best friend on IRC and Smogon hates Nidoqueen, wants it banned no matter what because it fucks with stall, and the reasons presented by both him and SilentVerse are solid. However, I am going to say that, even if you use stall, you can still beat Nidoqueen. It is obviously harder to beat it with stall than it is with offense; I don't think anyone is arguing with that point (if you are, you should be shot). However, the fact of the matter is, Nidoqueen needs Sludge Wave with SR + Thunderbolt or two Thunderbolts to KO Slowking, which is seen on pretty much every stall team. Now it's not necessarily hard to use Sludge Wave or Thunderbolt, but for many things, you need to use Earth Power or Fire Blast to against, which opens up a door for prediction. Spiritomb can also come on after Nidoqueen kills something and Pursuit it on the switch, denting it severely. Also, it's not immune to Spikes, meaning that it is still susceptible to entry hazards. Also, Cryogonal can outrun Nidoqueen just by running a couple Speed EVs, and Misdreavus walls almost al of them because most people do not run Shadow Ball. Also, it does not OHKO every Pokemon on stall; Pokemon can live at least 1 hit, which opens the door to damage it further. Overall, I feel that Nidoqueen is fine in the RU Metagame, even though it causes problems for defensive teams, it can be played around.

please do not kill me

 

[DittoCrow]

Here's a recap of the arguments presented at the IRC discussion. Feel free to comment or add to the discussion (there will be another one on IRC tomorrow)!

Arguments to ban Nidoqueen:

• It's very bulky, and very rarely OHKOed
• Nidoqueen has good typing that provides multiple resistances
• Nidoqueen has great coverage and obviously good power
• Nidoqueen is immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave and resists Stealth Rock

Arguments against banning Nidoqueen:

• There aren't many safe switch-ins to Nidoqueen on offensive teams, HOWEVER, that is the case with a lot of other threats, so Nidoqueen is similar to them
• Low Base 76 Speed
• Nidoqueen has a hard time switching in, as a lot off offensive Pokemon can 2HKO it. It basically has a lot of checks
• Nidoqueen requires lots of prediction to beat offensive teams
• It can't boost