New UU Stall

[Wyzra]

I've been playing this team a little bit on Shoddy, and it works OK. I'd like to share my experiences with you guys and maybe get some good ideas for changes. I don't plan on using this to ladder, because of certain threats who I will talk about later, and because of the long stall nature of the games. But I've put a ton of thought into this, and believe the concept has potential.

In OU I played a sandstorm stall with success for a long time, centered around Cradily and Regirock, despite the enormous presence of steels like Heatran, Metagross, Jirachi, and Scizor. So when the new UU brought Hippopotas, I of course ventured to recreate the power of sandstorm stall in a UU form.


At a glance:

In Depth:

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
---
In OU I started Hippowdon with great success. Unfortunately, Hippopotas is frail and easily shut down by basically any lead in UU. Therefore, I decided to start this Froslass, who is basically the only serviceable spiker in UU. It is fast and a good suicide lead, many times bringing down someone with Destiny Bond and shutting down some slower leads with taunt.

Hippopotas (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Toxic
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
---
Protect if I predict an attacking move, Stealth Rock otherwise. Surprisingly, with 340 HP and 280 Defense, this guy can take some physical hits. Slack Off helps him stall out people, especially those LO Hitmontops which for some reason people still use. Of course, this guy is most useful for the Sand Stream. Even if he's at 1 HP, i never like to sac him, as then opposing weather can screw me over pretty badly. Toxic is filler that can punish enemies who think Hippo is set-up fodder. It also combos well with Protect. This slot can also be used for EQ or Roar.
(I once used Focus Sash as his item to get a basically guaranteed SR up, but I'm experimenting with leftovers).

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Hammer Arm
- Sleep Talk
- Stone Edge
---
Huge Sp. D in the sandstorm, therefore the Careful nature and given EV spread. Definitely needs a recovery move, hence the RestTalk set (which is the same as in the Smogon analysis). Because of the Registeel/Spiritomb resttalkers I tried curse instead of Hammer Arm, but it SUCKED! Curse seems interesting, but lack of either a quick recovery move or a decent high-PP attack really screws it over.

Cradily (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP/164 Def/92 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Toxic
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Recover
---
The star of this team, both in OU and in UU. It can take special hits like no other with the sandstorm up. Basic toxic stall strategy, Earthquake for Raikou, poisons and steels which are immune to Toxic.

Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
---
The biggest thing I hate about this team is the loss of big Hippo and Skarm. I am unable to economically bundle together the Hippo/Stealth Rocker/Spiker/Walls/P. Hazer roles as before. This is a decent p. hazer who can Toxic Spikes after some of the team is revealed (so that I dont have to worry about absorbing it) and is also needed to absorb the enemy's T. Spikes. This thing is not nearly bulky enough to perform a really good job, though. Earth Power for STAB (maybe Earthquake, but I never had an occasion where I preferred it) and Fire Blast to 2HKO Steelix and inflict some pain on the pervasive Registeel. I was going to try Camerupt instead before I realized that I need a T. Spikes absorber, because he can OHKO Steelix.

I tried Drapion here before but I hate how it gets hit by the Sandstorm and also completely walled by Steelix/Registeel.

Mismagius (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Pain Split
- Will-o-wisp
- Shadow Ball
---
A GOOD spin blocker with many different functions. Extremely bulky with regards to special defense (which is heavily played in UU nowadays), and can take a hit or two on the defensive side, especially after the target is Will-O-Wisped (Smogon's spinner Hitmontop can't 2HKO with Stone Edge, even with SR and sandstorm.) It is immune to three of the most used physical offensive types: Fighting, Normal, and Ground. Furthermore, I found that its fast Perish Song can be useful for finishing off that dreaded "last pokemon" who cannot be P. Hazed. (With Spiritomb I had many stall wars at the end).



Anyway, there's the team. It's hard to deal with Registeel and Crobat, mostly because of the immunity to Toxic, however the situation is much more manageable in OU. Filling all the different roles covered by Hippo and Skarm is difficult, so I had to forgo a decent offensive Pokemon (in OU I used Scarfzone). The main things I want raters to address is:

(1) Possible replacement for Regirock (although he is the one who wins about half of the games)

(2) A p. hazer over Nidoqueen.

(3) Anything I overlooked, or bigger problems with the team.

Looking forward to your input.
-Wyzra

 

[TeaBag]

Your Cradily wants to be Calm over Careful if you want to use Grass Knot / Energy Ball.

 

[Wyzra]

Thanks for the suggestion TeaBag, I'll try it out. Chris is me, Hippopotas is not worthless, and definitely more worthwhile than your comments and ideas. I know how to play stall, I've played stall in OU since Plat came out with great success. You are the one who needs to think outside of "Standards" and "Obi's stall" (although this team does attempt to hold somewhat to those stall principles). You need to watch how you talk: if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say it.

 

[dizzleman22_main!]

Hippopotas is so cute.

Other than that, i have to agree.

Its way worse than its evolution. In UU, a better wall would be something like Steelix.

I'm surprised this wasn't included into the team. And also with the new UU list you might as well use a Registeel in there. If you prefer it over Steelix, that is. It does have access to Twave which is nice in stall.

So, i would suggest testing in Steelix/Registeel. Other than that, decent job.

 

[Wyzra]

Thanks Dizzleman. This is the 7th version of the team you're seeing. I did use a Steelix in the beginning as a back-up Stealth rocker and for his Roar. Later I tested him to use manual sandstorm. He was quite an obvious choice. While he did a good job, I was frequently met with T. Spikes teams, which pretty much ruin the stall. Since the Pokemon are all slow, and none hit particularly hard, it's easy to get up two layers against me, and when that happens the stall breaks apart quickly. For this reason, I cannot use Steelix. I also prefer Regirock to Steelix, because Steelix can't take hits as well, especially special hits. I admit though, I'm heavily biased towards Regirock because I used him in OU so much, so I'll test with Steelix instead. It would give me two Roars.

I haven't even tested Registeel. I can't find anyone he could replace, except Regirock, and he is inferior in both defenses due to the sandstorm. Thunder-wave has conflicts with the Toxic from Cradily and the Toxic Spikes, and I don't need a Stealth Rocker. If you can think of ways to fit them in, I'd love to hear it.

But speaking of Steelix, I should note that Hippopotas takes physical attacks about the same as Steelix takes special. I listed his HP/Def stats above. While not stellar, they are better than most Pokemon not EVed to be defensive. Since the sandstorm function is so vital, I think Hippopotas cannot be underestimated.

Thanks for the great suggestions,
Wyzra.

 

[Hryodbe]

I'm relatively new to shoddy battle, so maybe this assumption comes from my ignorance, but I really don't see anything short of a rain dance water focused team stopping restalk Regirock in a sandstorm. Call me a 'noob' if you want, but I've had more trouble with Regirock than I had with anything.

I think I've played against this team a few times, and although I'm normally able to deal some significant blows to my opponents(I'm still at the point where I lose a lot more than I win), this team always 6-0'd me.

Haha, maybe I'm just booty-hurt. Anyway, this team has really pissed me off, so congratulations.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

This is a good team, and I've met a Hippopotas it actualy did stall out one of my pokes with better than i thought defences. I think it might have been this team actually.
Also, you should consider Rotom (omg not appliance) if you want a good spin blocker. I pplayed old UU alot and know it walled alot of stuff with its handy resistances and great support movepool. Its also a great Staraptor counter.

 

[Wyzra]

Random Pizzaman, your comment got me thinking to replace Spiritomb. At first I was having a blast with his various immunities but now I think he is the weakest link. I made up my own Mismagius set, which GREATLY helps with the "last pokemon" difficulty. It's already won games for me. In addition, it's pretty bulky, so check it out.

 

[Erazor]

Well, Tangrowth is an option over Nidoqueen if you need bulk. It can't lay down t-spikes but it causes switches with leech seed and sleep powder, and even has good offenses.

Then there's Weezing, who actually gets Haze.

 

[Wyzra]

I'm going to ignore Chris is me's unjustified and delirious ranting. He brings up a decent point though: why a suicide lead? The answer is complex but well worth looking into. Let's take a look at the Spikers in UU:

Cacturne
Cloyster
Froslass
Glalie
Omastar
Qwilfish
Roserade

Roserade is interesting but Spikes/Sleep Powder is illegal, taking away much of its appeal. The rest all have at least one weak defense and share a weakness with the team, none can be called "bulky," and they have very low speed. As Glalie's Smogon analysis indicates, its hard to use them as anything more than a "worse Froslass."

Therefore, the best option is Froslass. Froslass is difficult to utilize when the Sandstorm is up, therefore I'd like it to assume it's usual role as lead. And so far, it's been working great for the reasons I stated above.

 

[Wyzra]

@ Erazor: Tangrowth is not an option because he doesn't absorb the T. Spikes and has low Sp. D. He's also hurt by the Sandstorm, which is always a little bit of a negative factor in the survivability. He also doesn't get a Roar/Whirlwind.

I can't use Weezing for all the same reasons: can't absorb T. Spikes, hurt by Sandstorm, no Roar/Whirlwind. On this team, those moves are for more than just "pseudo-hazing." They also provide excellent damage due to the presence of entry hazards.

 

[Imran]

Chris, I believe that you are missing the point here. If Wyzra says that the Hippopotas is working, it is working. If this user decides that they do not want your advice surely it is best just to walk away, considering that it was you who started this in the first place by giving less of a rate, than a rant, and second of all personally insulting this user with the phrase "learn stall in OU first" without any back up evidence that the user hasn't. Ladder Rank is also a pretty worthless measurement, I for example don't tend to ladder in one long go, so my ranking rarely reaches the leaderboard in that way, I tend to stick to 10 or so battles on one battling day. And don't bring that constructive criticism bullshit in here, you followed none of the guidance for team raters, such you identified problems but you gave no guidance on how to fix said problem. This person is attempting to work with a different style of team, so either you try to think in their mindset and help, or tell them why that style won't work (you mention a couple of threats, but I'm sure we can attempt to play around that)

OK, so I do agree with Chris is Me that Hippopotas may be an issue, I see that it's moveset works, but I will argue with you that Milotic does it better, in fact it can get away without running protect. If you run Milotic you will have a back-up against Rain Teams (thanks Chris, that was a good find) as she can pretty much sit there, toxic and recover against most things, I'll look into a nice EV spread that will allow you to beat annyoing things like Ludiolo. OK so if you really want to do well against Ludicolo you are going to need something like: 252 SpD / 124 HP / 132 SpA with a Calm Nature to really survive its Grass Knot, you'll fare better against Energy Ball varients but still, considering this is your answer to Rain Teams I don't see anything wrong with making it special, you can come in on Ludicolo on a surf or Ice Beam, take an Energy Ball comfortably and Toxic back, and then get around it by clever switching, the set I would suggest would be:

Milotic @ Leftovers
Calm Nature / Marvel Scale
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SpD / 132 SpA
~ Surf
~ Toxic
~ Recover
~ Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric

This will be a solid enough answer to all Rain teams, and hopefully you can dealy them enough to continue stalling them afterwards. So what does this do, it means you no longer have the Sandstorm and you no longer have Stealth Rocks. I don't think the Sandstorm is too much of an issue, although it helps Cradily and Regirock it doesn't make them useless. So keep Nidoqueen as your Pseudo Hazer, I see nothing wrong with keeping her as she is, but maybe you could run Stealth Rock over Earth Power (is there anything specifically that you are hitting it with) although that might put a little too much pressure on NIdoqueen, so you might want to look into putting it on Regirock if you find Nidoqueen isn't quite up to both jobs.

As for Regirock, I don't see why you should keep him as he is, with his massive Defence you can afford to invest in the special defence (Mismagius can take Fighting / Ground attacks) and he should perform his role reasonably well on your team, even without the extra boost. Unless you can highlight any more specific problems that you have been having I will be glad to help you out, just post here or shoot me a PM. (If you're looking for a bit more offensive power, Curse Regirock might be a good idea!)

 

[ToF]

His strategy works fine. Its called a suicide lead for a reason; spike as much as possible, inflict some damage with Ice Beam, and go out with a Destiny Bond. The strategy was perfectly viable in the old UU metagame as well, so no need to dismiss it now because of all the suspects.

The team is fairly solid, though you don't cover weaknesses all too well. You're weak to the common Water/Ice combination, so something like an offensive Milotic will give you trouble. Also, ironically I see you losing to opposing heavy stall, and with much of your team not having reliable recovery, you could have issues. Nidoqueen seems to be the "glue" of this team, preventing stuff like SD Gallade from sweeping you.

For this reason, I suggest running Chansey over Cradily with Wish and Aromatherapy. This allows you to freely replenish the health of your stall team, as well as provide a cleric that all stall teams should have. Chansey can also Toxic, filling a somewhat similar role to Cradily.

If you do decide to go the Chansey route, this frees up certain slots of other Pokemon. For example, Regirock can now run Curse over Sleep Talk, because you would have a Cleric that can instantly remove the sleep status. Curse will allow you to beat Crobat, as well as Registeel provided you start boosting earlier.

Just some food for thought really. Since the metagame is unstable, anything works as of now. Hope some of this was useful, good luck.

 

[Wyzra]

I'm not keen on switching out Hippopotas right now, as that's the most important aspect of this team's strategy.

OK, I'll try Chansey out. I see how it can support the team in ways Cradily cannot, through Heal Bell and Wish and so on. However, I think that Cradily is bulkier than many people imagine. For example, according to my calculations Modest 252 SpA Choice Specs Milotic (barely) cannot 2OHKO Cradily with Ice Beam in the sandstorm, and who even plays one of those? So that's why playing with so many common weaknesses can work out OK.

The main concern I see with Chansey is that its Def is way too low. Its base def is only 5, as opposed to Blissey's 10, which means it takes more than twice as much damage from physical attacks than does Blissey (it has slightly lower HP as well). Furthermore, mixed sweepers seem more popular in this metagame than in the old UU, with powerful new Pokes like Entei, Blaziken, and Honchkrow.

 

[locopoke]

How can you claim I'm a standards-pusher in a metagame that's existed for less than two days? Oh, of course the answer is that I'm a sheepish idiot who never thinks outside the box, thanks.

out of curiosity, if you're an "expert" on stall how high did your ladder rank get? Did you run a "stall team" with a suicide Azelf on it and 5 pokemon wiht common weaknesses? Because that's exactly what you're doing here, with different Pokémon.



Oh, so criticism of your team style isn't constructive? I thought you wanted team rates.

Lol, does I could be banned! go hand in hand with being an asshole? Give him a break, don't be so stuck up.

 

[panamaxis]

Focus sash with defense and hp evs and slack off? No, that's bad give hippopotas leftovers. I'd go with earthquake > protect on hippopotas so you aren't totally shut down by taunt. Calm nature on cradily so you don't reduce the power of grass knot. On second thoughts I'd suggest keeping a careful nature and using earthquake > grass knot so you can beat raikou. Earthquake hits the pokes immune to toxic hard, so its a good combo, although don't expect to do much to steelix and registeel. Although you do have mismagius, but this would give you extra insurance, it's your call. Looks pretty cool otherwise.

 

[Wyzra]

panamaxis, you seem to be right on both counts. Actually, Hippo tends to survive a lot of the physical hits: they sometimes wouldn't be 2HKOs with leftovers! The changes are reflected in the team.

EDIT: Ah, I forgot to fix that Careful in the first place. How silly of me =P

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Actually, Chansey only takes ~11% more damage, since its max Defense is 109 compared to Blissey's 119, and its max+ defense is 119 compared to Blissey's 130. Remember, each point of Base Stat only adds 2!

That said, it would probably work out well for you, especially since Nidoqueen soaks up strong Fighting-type attacks.

 

[Wyzra]

SDS: Ah yeah, thanks for the calcs and I see how that works out. I tried Chansey, and Cradily and Chansey are pretty comparable. I'm not exactly sure which I prefer yet. I don't have that much room for support moves on Chansey, because Cradily is my main Toxic stall. I've been running with S-Toss/Protect/Wish/Toxic. I've been Wishing Nidoqueen a lot, and it helps her stay alive a little longer. But Cradily seems a little bulkier since it doesn't take SS damage and is immune to leech seed (which has been a non-negligible factor). If Chansey wasn't weak to fighting, I'd definitely go for it (I hate that both Cradily/Regirock are both fighting weak). But as it stands I slightly prefer Cradily.