New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 4

[BalancedPower]

Here is why HP Dragon is dumb: Suppose you are using it on other waters. A torrent boosted, STAB resisted surf gets 95*1.5*1.5*.5=107BP, like someone said before. HP Dragon gets...70. Surf hits harder. Ice Beam is vastly superior against all dragons except for Kingdra (well, and Palkia, if you want to go there). There is no pokemon you can outdamage by the Surf-HP Dragon combination than with the Surf-Ice Beam combination besides Kingdra. Any look at this: Kingdra often only carries attacks that come with the water, dragon typings! No one is going to try to take down Empoleon with a Kingdra, because that is counter-productive. So, to conclude, HP Dragon is much less viable than Ice Beam.

Vaporeon completely walls that.
And HP Dragon would be 70*1.5 from Petaya which is actually 105 BP, not
As for Kingdra...Assuming you have Petaya/Torrent active, a Waterfall/Outrage will still kill you because you will be so low. I agree that Kingdra does do nearly nothing to you, but after Petaya and Torrent that is all you really need.
But I see the point of what you say, and what others have said, I was just thinking it could surprise some people, and give you that slight advantage early. Lets just drop it then, and discuss some other set.

 

[Mazaki Anzu]

Surf also gets petaya boost.

Guys, assuming torrent boost is very situational as they may be some times were you will need to use surf without the petaya and torrent boost, it matters but that isnt what makes surf superior to HP dragon.

95 (surf) * 1.5 (STAB) = 142 (Surf's base power with STAB)

142 / 2 (Not very effective) = 71

Surf does 1 extra damage to neutral and ice beam hurts dragons other than kingdra harder. Vaporeon walls it but if you hurt it with hidden power dragon it's like you're hurting it with not very effective surf and believe me, it won't do much damage.

 

[chenman333]

Vappy walls all Empy sets, using HP Dragon ain't gonna matter, it'll KO you too easily.

Kingdra takes a hefty 60% damage from Ice Beam anyway; Empoleon is a late game sweeper, you need to kill/weaken all this stuff early anyway.

Now to another set that I've been playing around with:

Bulk Up LO Machamp:

Machamp @ LO
No Guard
252 HP/92 Atk/44 Spe/120 SpD
Adamant
-Bulk Up
-Dynamic Punch
-Stone Edge
-Payback

This is a pretty cool set. Why? This thing isn't even KOed by a Timid Specs Latias Draco Meteor after SR, and after a bulk up, nothing physical is 1hkoing him either. Yes, if facing something as hard hitting as a Specs Draco Meteor you will die from the LO recoil, you are basically guaranteed to kill them too (think stuff like Salamence, Latias). Only some more uncommon stuff has a shot to kill him, like a Specs Psychic or a Specs Overheat from Heatran. And with a Bulk Up and LO, Machamp hits like a freaking tank, able to 2hko a max/max Bold Suicune, which is pretty damn remarkable, and 2hkos Rotom formes even after they use WoW. With Dynamic Punch's confusion rate and Machamp's power, dedicated physical walls really don't stand a chance.

The Speed EVs are to outspeed minimum speed base 60s, but I suppose you can move them to attack or SpD if you want.

 

[d2m]

Try telling that to LonelyNess.

I really don't care what he uses. Yanmega can beat all of his counters with a little hax (SpD drop or Flinch), I've never had any problem and I playtested him for about 6 hours over the past couple days. Once Light Screen is up, Milotic and other pokes with decent SpD can switch in with impunity.

 

[Mazaki Anzu]

Try telling that to LonelyNess.

I get it, so I should invest a lot of HP and def EVs to my shuca heatran lead in order to survive max HP and atk adamant CB hippowdon lead

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I get it, so I should invest a lot of HP and def EVs to my shuca heatran lead in order to survive max HP and atk adamant CB hippowdon lead

Well if some people were actually using CB Hippowdon as a lead and you posted a lead Shuca Heatran set, then yes, I would say something similar to what I said to d2m. 'Watch out for the occasional CB Hippo leads that have been in use recently, as they can OHKO you through Shuca Berry'. Except that I wouldn't as I haven't played OU in like forever, so I wouldn't know, but you get the point. What's wrong with that?

And for the record, LonelyNess is not the only battler I've seen use a Specs Yanmega lead, just the most well known.

 

[familyguyman]

Vappy walls all Empy sets, using HP Dragon ain't gonna matter, it'll KO you too easily.

Kingdra takes a hefty 60% damage from Ice Beam anyway; Empoleon is a late game sweeper, you need to kill/weaken all this stuff early anyway.

Now to another set that I've been playing around with:

Bulk Up LO Machamp:

Machamp @ LO
No Guard
252 HP/92 Atk/44 Spe/120 SpD
Adamant
-Bulk Up
-Dynamic Punch
-Stone Edge
-Payback

This is a pretty cool set. Why? This thing isn't even KOed by a Timid Specs Latias Draco Meteor after SR, and after a bulk up, nothing physical is 1hkoing him either. Yes, if facing something as hard hitting as a Specs Draco Meteor you will die from the LO recoil, you are basically guaranteed to kill them too (think stuff like Salamence, Latias). Only some more uncommon stuff has a shot to kill him, like a Specs Psychic or a Specs Overheat from Heatran. And with a Bulk Up and LO, Machamp hits like a freaking tank, able to 2hko a max/max Bold Suicune, which is pretty damn remarkable, and 2hkos Rotom formes even after they use WoW. With Dynamic Punch's confusion rate and Machamp's power, dedicated physical walls really don't stand a chance.

The Speed EVs are to outspeed minimum speed base 60s, but I suppose you can move them to attack or SpD if you want.

I used a similar idea on my Hax team with Substitute over Stone Edge and Lefties over LO.

Sub-Bulk Up with high Special Defense allows for very hard to break Subs while you pump up your attack and pound/hax your way past counters.

For example, Offensive Gyarados is a 2HKO with +1 Dynamic Punch with no EVs and Adamant (and Rocks of course) and you can do this easily with a Sub up, even with Intimidate.

The only things keeping it from being totally broken are:
1) PP on Dynamic Punch, especially against Zapdos
2) Payback and Substitute make for hard decisions early on. A predicted switch to a ghost or psychic type can be good damage where as a Sub might be tempting to ease early game prediction and scout a bit.


Good set though, Bulky-Champ is underrated.

 

[.River]

I've been working on this anti-lead for most of the day, and it seems quite good (yet a bit gimmicky). I mean, when was the last time you saw a Pidgeot in OU? Let alone a special based one :P .

Pidgeot @ Expert Belt
Modest - Tangled Feet
252 SpA / 252 HP / 4 SpD (I haven't been able to run the maximise your defenses program, so if someone wants to do that for me, that would be good)
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Ominuous Wind
- HP Grass / HP Ice

Damage Calcs 1
Damage Calcs 2

Azelf
-Use Tailwind while Azelf sets up Stealth Rock. You can now outspeed the Azelf, and use Air Slash. If you flinch, you can finish it off with Ominuous Wind, otherwise you take a hit and then finish it off.

Metagross
-Heat Wave while the unsuspecting Metagross stealth rocks. He will either switch, in which case you can Tailwind, otherwise Heat Wave again for the KO.

Jirachi
-Quite annoying as it's faster, and can hax. It takes 3 Iron Heads to KO Pidgeot, whereas it only takes 2 Heat Waves to KO Jirachi. You will most likely get at least 1 Heat Wave in which will at the very least scare the Jirachi, maybe even into switching (unless it has gotten 2 Iron Heads in). U Turn is nothing to worry about.

Swampert (MixPert)
-If you run HP Grass you can 2HKO while the Swampert sets up Stealth Rock.

Swampert (Physical)
-Same as above

Aerodactyl
-First HP Ice to blow a huge dent into the Aerodactyl while it sets up rocks. At this point it will not suspect you to use a support move, but Tailwind here lets you get the first attack next turn which will result in the same end, or at least give you double speed for any counter the opponent switches in. If the Aerodactyl stays in, you can now KO with HP Ice. If he doesn't stay in, you can outspeed most threats, but if not, you can always switch out as you keep the Tailwind bonus (afaik, correct me if I'm wrong).

Infernape (Naive)
-Use Tailwind on the fake out, then Tailwind again. You'll now be able to outspeed and Air Slash. You'll bring the Infernape to 1% and will KO if the Infernape's Fire Blast misses, otherwise you can revenge with a priority.

Infernape (Hasty)
-Same as above, except Infernape's Focus Sash doesn't always activate.

Hippowdon
-Can't beat



Thoughts?

 

[whistle]

i use a specs yanmega lead and if i saw a mr mime i wouldn't hesitate for a second to uturn to pursuit honchkrow

that lead is effective against the "standard" yanmega lead but a specs version is always something you'll have to watch out for (also who uses speed boost yanmega still).

edit @ mazaki: what... specs yanmega isn't just viable -- it's "definitely" the better set.

 

[Mazaki Anzu]

@Lemmiwinks:

It's not that. The point it's that even if one uncommon lead set work (Cb hippo, specs yanmega or my delibird lead) that doesn't means that you HAVE to prepare yourself for that. People prepare themselves for the most common things, in this case, the speed boost classic lead yanmega.

For example my delibird lead set works really great and I use it in every match, does that mean people should prepare themselves for delibird leads while other leads and sets are much more common? Specs yanmega is viable, but that mime it's designed to fight against the more used version.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Togekiss can run that lead Pidgeot set much better. Pidgeot's base stats are 83/80/75/70/70/91 while Togekiss's base stats are 85/50/95/120/115/80, so Togekiss is far bulkier and more powerful. The loss of speed from using Togekiss is not one that will put it behind any significant leads, or at least not enough to make Pidgeot worth using just for that. Togekiss can have that exact moveset but with the more reliable Flamethrower over Heat Wave (or you could use Fire Blast). And Togekiss's ability is immensely useful, letting Togekiss flinch some leads to death before they can do anything.

 

[Mazaki Anzu]

I've been working on this anti-lead for most of the day, and it seems quite good (yet a bit gimmicky). I mean, when was the last time you saw a Pidgeot in OU? Let alone a special based one :P .

Pidgeot @ Expert Belt
Modest - Tangled Feet
252 SpA / 252 HP / 4 SpD (I haven't been able to run the maximise your defenses program, so if someone wants to do that for me, that would be good)
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Ominuous Wind
- HP Grass / HP Ice

Damage Calcs 1
Damage Calcs 2

Azelf
-Use Tailwind while Azelf sets up Stealth Rock. You can now outspeed the Azelf, and use Air Slash. If you flinch, you can finish it off with Ominuous Wind, otherwise you take a hit and then finish it off.

Metagross
-Heat Wave while the unsuspecting Metagross stealth rocks. He will either switch, in which case you can Tailwind, otherwise Heat Wave again for the KO.

Jirachi
-Quite annoying as it's faster, and can hax. It takes 3 Iron Heads to KO Pidgeot, whereas it only takes 2 Heat Waves to KO Jirachi. You will most likely get at least 1 Heat Wave in which will at the very least scare the Jirachi, maybe even into switching (unless it has gotten 2 Iron Heads in). U Turn is nothing to worry about.

Swampert (MixPert)
-If you run HP Grass you can 2HKO while the Swampert sets up Stealth Rock.

Swampert (Physical)
-Same as above

Aerodactyl
-First HP Ice to blow a huge dent into the Aerodactyl while it sets up rocks. At this point it will not suspect you to use a support move, but Tailwind here lets you get the first attack next turn which will result in the same end, or at least give you double speed for any counter the opponent switches in. If the Aerodactyl stays in, you can now KO with HP Ice. If he doesn't stay in, you can outspeed most threats, but if not, you can always switch out as you keep the Tailwind bonus (afaik, correct me if I'm wrong).

Infernape (Naive)
-Use Tailwind on the fake out, then Tailwind again. You'll now be able to outspeed and Air Slash. You'll bring the Infernape to 1% and will KO if the Infernape's Fire Blast misses, otherwise you can revenge with a priority.

Infernape (Hasty)
-Same as above, except Infernape's Focus Sash doesn't always activate.

Hippowdon
-Can't beat



Thoughts?

You got it right: Ice and Grass are both very important offensive types in the lead position. right now I dont have any calculator at hand so I can't make calculations.

Anyways I guess Pelipper outclasses Pidgeot: Resistant to jirachi hax, resistant to metagross meteor mash-bullet punch (dont know if lead metagross run often T-punch anyways)

Anyways, dont get so confident about tailwind: Many people taunt you in the first place if they see a weak and uncommon pokemon (my delibird has been taunted many, many times (something that's like a free turn to me, as my delibird is full-attacking moves))

SUICUNE have to be mentioned here, because it's pretty much like pelipper but with more bulkiness, less weakness and a more powerful attack STAB (surf over air slash)

@Staraptor: Togekiss dont stand a chance against likes Azelf, Aero or so.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

@Lemmiwinks:

It's not that. The point it's that even if one uncommon lead set work (Cb hippo, specs yanmega or my delibird lead) that doesn't means that you HAVE to prepare yourself for that. People prepare themselves for the most common things, in this case, the speed boost classic lead yanmega.

For example my delibird lead set works really great and I use it in every match, does that mean people should prepare themselves for delibird leads while other leads and sets are much more common? Specs yanmega is viable, but that mime it's designed to fight against the more used version.

Okay, show me the part in any of my posts where i said you have to prepare for anything? The purpose of my post was related to awareness and exercising caution, not to say 'your lead sucks because it isn't prepared for Specs versions'.

Your Delibird example has no relevance here. I hope that any player would know what Delibird is capable of and can act accordingly, even if they match up badly on turn one. As for Mr Mime vs. Yanmega, you can't just look at the Yanmega and go 'Oh, a Specs variant, must switch out' because you don't have a clue. The set posted works against the most used variant, but loses to the equally viable alternative that does see occasional use, meaning the set has a certain degree of unreliability.

I hope we can stop arguing about this now, as it is detracting significantly from the main thread.

 

[.River]

The only risky tailwind here is against the Azelf, but not even that has to be used. The tailwind against Aero will most likely never be taunted after seeing HP Ice does more than 50% all the time.

 

[Mazaki Anzu]

The only risky tailwind here is against the Azelf, but not even that has to be used. The tailwind against Aero will most likely never be taunted after seeing HP Ice does more than 50% all the time.

Don't forget Aerodactyl.

OU (BAN ME PLEASE) send out Aerodactyl
You send out Pidgeot

Aero uses SR
Pidgeot uses HP Ice (almost 60% damage

Aero uses SE
OHKO

You die and you have rocks on your side.

You could use Sash but then I doubt you could 2hko Aero. Here's where Pelipper can shine instead.

OU (BAN ME PLEASE) send out Aerodactyl
You send out Pelipper

Aero uses SR
Pelipper uses Surf

(99% damage I guess)

Pelipper uses Quick attack
KO

OR

Pelipper uses Tailwind
Aerodactyl uses SE (Asuming no-crit hax I doubt it could kill pelipper, if pidgeot takes that attack so well)

Pelipper uses surf
KO

You can kill the lead without any damage but sadly unlike my delibird you CAN'Tclean the rocks. If you want I could post the Leadlibird again with some changes I did to him (Because counter+Ice shard is illegal)

 

[WarriorPrince]

Don't forget Aerodactyl.

OU (BAN ME PLEASE) send out Aerodactyl
You send out Pidgeot

Aero uses SR
Pidgeot uses HP Ice (almost 60% damage

Aero uses SE
OHKO

You die and you have rocks on your side.

You could use Sash but then I doubt you could 2hko Aero. Here's where Pelipper can shine instead.

OU (BAN ME PLEASE) send out Aerodactyl
You send out Pelipper

Aero uses SR
Pelipper uses Surf

(99% damage I guess)

Pelipper uses Quick attack
KO

OR

Pelipper uses Tailwind
Aerodactyl uses SE (Asuming no-crit hax I doubt it could kill pelipper, if pidgeot takes that attack so well)

Pelipper uses surf
KO

You can kill the lead without any damage but sadly unlike my delibird you can clean the rocks. If you want I could post the Leadlibird again with some changes I did to him (Because counter+Ice shard is illegal)

Exactly.


@ .River
Not that I'm knocking the set, but I think it kinda outclassed by several others.

It's a decent set. I mean, it does it's job decently and the surprise value is amazing, but in the end, It's gambling for it's life against some of the most common leads.

Nice set though River.

 

[.River]

Thanks for the input :) .

Just like to say, that this is able to take out all common leads (from the list above), besides Hippowdon. Also, if you choose HP Grass, you can't take out Aero, likewise, HP Ice can't take out Swampert. Most would go with HP Grass as Swampert is more common, but if you decide for Ice, remember that not all Aeros pack SE so you still have the chance of defeating it, while having an extra 2 turns of double speed left.

I find this better than Togekiss as the extra support of Tailwind can work wonders if used at the right time. I haven't ran any calcs, but I don't see it faring well against many of these leads.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Togekiss has an even better move for outspeeding the opposition: Thunder Wave. Tailwind only doubles your speed and lasts for three turns, while Thunder Wave reduces your opponent's speed to a quarter and lasts the entire match. And Togekiss can beat Aerodactyl and Azelf:

Opponent sent out Azelf!
You sent out Togekiss!

Azelf used Taunt or Stealth Rock!
Togekiss used Air Slash!
Azelf lost [a large amount of its HP]!

Togekiss used Extremespeed!
Azelf lost [the rest of its HP]!
Opponent's Azelf fainted!

The battle with Aerodactyl goes similarly except you use a different attacking move on the first turn.

 

[familyguyman]

Togekiss has an even better move for outspeeding the opposition: Thunder Wave. Tailwind only doubles your speed and lasts for three turns, while Thunder Wave reduces your opponent's speed to a quarter and lasts the entire match. And Togekiss can beat Aerodactyl and Azelf:

Opponent sent out Azelf!
You sent out Togekiss!

Azelf used Taunt or Stealth Rock!
Togekiss used Air Slash!
Azelf lost [a large amount of its HP]!

Togekiss used Extremespeed!
Azelf lost [the rest of its HP]!
Opponent's Azelf fainted!

The battle with Aerodactyl goes similarly except you use a different attacking move on the first turn.

From experience I think Body Slam is better than Thunder Wave for two reasons.

First, you can paralyze Swampert and Hippowdon. Not a HUGE deal but can be useful to ParaFlinch them into oblivion.

Second, you can paralyze Taunters. If Azelf or Aerodactyl use Taunt, you waste a move where as Body Slam, albeit only 60% chance, will get the job done regardless. It also breaks the Sash meaning you could 2HKO on the follow up move and maybe even stop Rocks all together with some ParaHax or if they Taunt while you Body Slam.

 

[SweetMochi]

I think using Bibarel's underrated Simple ability to make it a sweeper could work. Of the analyses already on the site, bibarel is using either curse or amnesia, but not both. Using both, bibarel can reach +4/6 SpDef, +6 Attack, and +6 Defense in a 4-5 turn setup. Although this setup takes a large amount of time, I only use Bibarel with Umbreon, who can use his trappasser set alongside yawn to give Bibarel between 2-5 turns of setup (hopefully at least 4). Here's the actual set:

Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Bold Nature
-Curse
-Amnesia
-Waterfall
-Return

The EVs are obviously very inspecific, and the nature can be changed as well depending on what ever bibarel may be switching into. But usually once I can get bibarel in on a trapped, sleeping foe, I can get as many curses and amnesias as I need (often times to +6) and sweep with the almost unresisted coverage of water/normal.

I don't know how to attach a link for my 6-0 log, and I don't really want to c/p it here. But I think this set has potential. On the standard ladder, I've
6-0ed about 3 teams with bibarel, or taken out a fair amount of my opponent's team.

 

[Age of Kings]

Amnesia is redundant with Curse to an extent. The smart opponent will certainly switch something in to Taunt you before you can set both of those up even with Simple. I don't have any calcs on me, but it usually does have trouble against enemy bulky waters so even if the combo is unresisted it will certainly meet some heavy opposition. Milotic in UU in particular usually packs Toxic. Quick Attack should be over Return for some good STAB priority.

Why are you using Bold instead of Impish though..?

Also, I'm not an expert on Bibarel at all. Maybe ask Bologo for help because I'm sure there'd be a more efficient spread.

 

[yngstr]

I'm not very creative, I just want to know the viability of this moveset. If people could recommend EVs, or a different nature, I'd be grateful:

Serene Grace Blissey (Calm) @ Leftovers

Charge Beam
Ice Beam
Flamthrower
Softboiled

Which EVs do you recommend? Def/HP, Def/SpD, or Def/SpA

 

[EspyJoel]

Blissey has Calm Mind, you don't need to use Charge Beam so that set is outclassed.

 

[Eraddd]

I'm not very creative, I just want to know the viability of this moveset. If people could recommend EVs, or a different nature, I'd be grateful:

Serene Grace Blissey (Calm) @ Leftovers

Charge Beam
Ice Beam
Flamthrower
Softboiled

Which EVs do you recommend? Def/HP, Def/SpD, or Def/SpA

I'd go with Rotom if I were you.

 

[Age of Kings]

Calm Mind is much better because you can stall better with it because using Bold and Natural Cure increases its durability. It's also your best bet for an offensive Blissey. There's little difference between the set you listed and the CMBliss listed in the analysis besides Flamethrower and Serene Grace (both are mentioned anyways) so it's best simply to use that set.