Gen 2 Need a Rate

[Umby]

I'm more offensive oriented, but I'm not sure this is as effective as it could be.


Marowak (M) @ Thick Club ** Clint Beastwood
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I think I've only ever set up a sweep with Marowak once in all my GSC experience. At some point I gave up, but I always want to use it. I figured this set would make it enough of a team player while adding a small amount of durability.

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers ** Birthday Cake
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Selfdestruct

Raikou @ Leftovers ** Dead Batteries
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder

Suicune @ Leftovers ** Blue Beating
- Ice Beam
- Rest
- Roar
- Surf

Pretty much, my fall back for checking Cursers early on. After that, I gotta take a more offensive approach with Eggy, Snorlax, or Machamp. I like the way that works, kinda, as it fits more into my style of play. Not having a normal resist bites just a little, though.

Exeggutor (M) @ Leftovers ** Chatoic Waltz
- Explosion
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore

I honestly prefer Sub/Leech for spreading paralysis, but I needed instant options for the aforementioned purposes under Suicune.

Machamp (M) @ Leftovers ** Marlon Brando
- Cross Chop
- Curse
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide


Thoughts?

 

[Jorgen]

Needs something better to switch into Snorlax. ST Curselax especially puts you in a bad way, because you can't even neutralize it by forcing it to sleep. Suicune as your only phazer means Missy and Joltwak can also cause some issues, but to a lesser extent, since I can see you being able to play around them. Aside from that, it looks solid, with maybe a few nitpicks here and there that are probably more personal preference than anything else.

 

[Borat]

If you know you can beat snorlax before it beats you (isn't that what a large part of GSC is anyway?), it wont really matter. Forcing lax coverage on every team, especially the quicker ones, aren't necessary and really limit what you can do to other non-[st] curselax teams. It's not like there's no lax coverage here anyway. ST curselax has a very limited set of pokemon/set counters, but there are plenty of ways to play around it.

 

[Crystal_]

Seems to me that a stall with Starmie + Skarm + Miltank + ST whatever walls the team

 

[The Crown]

---Dragonite
1. Dynamic Punch
2. Extremespeed
3. Thunder
4. Ice Beam
@ Leftovers

^ Needs moar this on your team.

---Gengar
1. Giga Drain
2. Thunderbolt
3. Ice Punch
4. Explosion
@ Scope Lens

or this ^

:devil:

Offensive-only teams = GOAT, way more fun to use than stall-teams even though stall-teams = GOAT in GSC.

Playing 500+ turns ain't fun compared to offensive matches where it ends in > 100.

 

[Borat]

Playing 500+ turns ain't fun compared to offensive matches where it ends in > 100.

You're using > wrong. Why are you here Gloxie? This is GSC, and just like general math, you wouldnt know anything about it.

@crystal: The amount of stuff that stall flatout walls is pretty ridiculous. Akin to the lax argument, it's not a problem until... it becomes a problem. Why limit yourself to countering hypothetical teams?

 

[Umby]

I've thought of Leech, but haven't gotten to play enough with the team to where Eggy made a significant performance. If it proves it actually needs a moveset change in battle, I'll take action. Unless there's a significant issue with the current set that needs to be addressed or there's a potential change that optimizes its role (I mean you say Leech helps vs Cursers, but I can take multiple actions in this case to remedy that already), then I'm probably not going to do anything about it just yet.

Not that I don't appreciate the suggestion.

 

[Jorgen]

It's true, you don't absolutely need to change anything unless practice dictates otherwise (practice > theory, no matter how elegant or comfortable the theory is).

RMTs are a weird breed of post. Imo, they really only help people that understand the basics of competitive battling, but don't know the meta well enough to consider all their options. But since you know GSC, Umby, it's really more up to you to discover what the team runs into trouble against, what you can play around, how to play the team in general, how to change with the meta, what variations to implement, etc. You're the expert on this team, you'd know it better than anyone else would. And you seem to accept that role in your last post, which is why I'm confused as to why you say that you "need" a rate.

Mind you, it's not like I don't appreciate the opportunity to apply my take on GSC theorymon. At the very least, RMTs are good for shits 'n' giggles.

 

[Borat]

Most RMTs tend to be more "look at my team" more than anything.

And the few that do rate generally take a look at individual movesets, and offer the standard alternative if anything deviates from it. No one here's doing that at least, so that's pretty good.

But standards are standards for a reason, and worth a second look or a second consideration, always. From my experience though, that snorlax will end up NEEDING to explode on zapdos, at least without DE (or in the least, Return/Frustration). Zapdos simply does not back off unless you show curse (or the occasional LK).

But then again, when has taking out Zapdos been a bad thing? In fact, I think that's a large part of it. Marowak is walled by the same zapdos (BS failing to 3hko), Egg/Machamp aren't so hot vs Zapdos either. It's worth considering throwing BS over RS on Machamp for that reason, assuming you're able to reliably take down Zapdos, that would let Machamp take down starmies and stuff on its own (Ghost > Bug in this case, for hitting gengars).

 

[Lucchini]

Perhaps try to find a spot for something that can absorb or null explosions - Skarmory, Forretress, Steelix or Gengar. Yours is a fast team but you avoiding bait explosion casualties early can leave you with a number advantage later.

Also, nothing wrong with being a little girl with female emotions.

 

[SimJiv]

Would prefer something like Agility or Substitute to be Passed to Marowak, otherwise, he's just a "glass canon".

No Curse/Rest+Sleep Talk/Belly Drum on Snorlax? I'm surprised. But that don't have to be a bad thing you know. Although i would like Rest in he's moveset.

Raikou, change this to Zapdos (or atleast I would) - who doesn't need HP Ice to beat Grounds since they can't hit him anyway. And he's Drill Peck adds more type coverage for you (bugs, grass, fighting).

Suicune, fine.

Exeggutor likes Giga Drain + Leech Seed, as they both replenish his HP. Psychic is fine, altough bad type coverage. Explosion is given.

Machamp - he's great. Only alternative is Vital Throw if you fear missing Cross Chop or Earthquake to use his attack and more type coverage.

 

[Borat]

Most of the above isn't true, but you probably already knew that.

 

[Umby]

Forgive me if this is a bit rude, but I'm going to tell you most of what's wrong with that post.

Would prefer something like Agility or Substitute to be Passed to Marowak, otherwise, he's just a "glass canon".

To begin with, this is a Rest + Sleep Talk set. It provides a completely different utility than a standard Swords Dance set through attempting to spread paralysis and adding a little bit of durability. Aside from that, even considering a standard set with the intent to sweep, Marowak doesn't need a Substitute or Agility to be passed to be effective (The former is NOT happening and the latter is less effective than conventional methods). If its team backs it up through paralysis support, it can wreck without Agility.

No Curse/Rest+Sleep Talk/Belly Drum on Snorlax? I'm surprised. But that don't have to be a bad thing you know. Although i would like Rest in he's moveset.

Snorlax can do a variety of things. In this case I'm having him Selfdestruct to keep the team moving at a quicker pace. None of those moves really fit in a moveset with Selfdestruct for all intended purposes.

Raikou, change this to Zapdos (or atleast I would) - who doesn't need HP Ice to beat Grounds since they can't hit him anyway. And he's Drill Peck adds more type coverage for you (bugs, grass, fighting).

Because Snorlax doesn't have Rest on the current moveset I have for him, I have no other buffer for opposing Electrics except for Marowak and Raikou. Marowak can't take on HP Ice Zapdos without Rock Slide (and even then, it starts off at a disadvantage) and eventually can fall to Raikou's HP Ice on the switch as well. Raikou, then, becomes the most reliable switch-in to Electrics when Marowak and Snorlax can't take a hit. Even with all three at high health, switching amongst them helps me better predict/control whether I'm receiving a Thunder or an HP Ice or at the very list provides me with a failsafe if I predict wrong.

And Ground types are more than capable of hitting Drill Peck Zapdos. HP Ice being allowed on Raikou and Zapdos are the main reason for Rhydon's recent usage decline, after all. HP Ice still hits Grasses hard and Thunder usually gets the job done vs most Fighting types.

Exeggutor likes Giga Drain + Leech Seed, as they both replenish his HP. Psychic is fine, altough bad type coverage. Explosion is given.

Giga Drain
Super Effective: Water, Rock, Ground
Not Very Effective: Grass, Bug, Poison, Fire, Flying, Steel, Dragon

Psychic
Super Effective: Fighting, Poison
Not Very Effective/Immune: Steel, Psychic, Dark

To begin with, Giga Drain only has 60 BP. It hits Super Effective on three common types, but Psychic hits all of them Neutral (save for Tyranitar as a Rock-type, who beats you 1v1 with Crunch). However, it's resisted by a lot more types, making it easy to switch on. With 8 PP to waste, you probably won't hit much until late game, or unless you predict a Tyranitar switch/Pursuit/not-Crunch-or-Fire Blast.

Psychic on the other hand doesn't hit as much for Super Effective damage, but with less resistances, it hits a lot more things Neutral, running off a base power of 90 AND has a chance to lower SDef. To add on, Steel is almost a negligible resistance, since Steelix can't do anything back to Exeggutor except Explode and Skarmory gets into a bad position if it takes too many STABed Psychics.

Psychic does not have bad type coverage. At the very least, it has better coverage than Giga Drain. I have no problem with the move (it's not a bad move to have lying around) but as I mentioned in a previous post, unless in-battle experience shows I need to do so otherwise, there's no need for me to change that specific moveset.

 

[Borat]

Snorlax can do a variety of things.

Snorlax can do a lot of things, BUT whatever it's doing, at least one of the following moves is mandatory: Curse, Belly Drum, and Selfdestruct. In extreme cases, you can get away with a lone LK, but even that's bordering gimmick.

As far as Zapdos is concerned, HP Fire is actually a pretty viable HP alternative. Hits both Egg and Steelix, with the bonus of Heracross (and to a lesser extent, Forretress). You lose neutral grounds though.

 

[Lucchini]

Psychic super-effective on: Machamp, Heracross, Nidoking, Gengar.
Giga Drain super-effective on: Suicune, Vaporeon, Rhydon, Marowak, Starmie, Tyranitar, Cloyster.

Giga Drain hardly guarantees Egg a favourable matchup against most of them though, but it has Stun Spore, Sleep Powder and Leech Seed to bend the odds, plus it can explode into stuff.

HP Fire is worth considering for the damage on other Eggs, Forretress and of course Skarm.

 

[Borat]

It's not just SE that matters, but the hard percentages probably matter a whole lot more. Suicune/Vap can both rest loop Giga drain, and starmie can recover loop it (seed is more effective in these three matchups). Giga drain is mostly to give you a shot at Ttar; not even worth considering outside of that imo. Sure you get marginal improvements vs cloy, wak, w/e, but it's really just ttar that pushes most people to use it. The pursuit kind.

Psychic is hitting harder vs neutral targets, that's the primary reason (zapdos, missy, snorlax, raikou, miltank etc) it's used. Heracross, Machamp, and Nido are all pretty situational targets for the most part, whereas most of the neutral stuff you'll find on just about every team. Gengar's a good one though.

 

[SimJiv]

From my own experience Rest+Sleep Talk is risky on Marowak, but can be a great win if it goes of as planned.

Snorlax i have no problem with, but with those walling abilities i am surprised that he doesn't have any set-up.

The choice between Raikou and Zapdos is from person to person, but i myself prefer Zapdos. Although, it is possible that Raikou works better with your team as you say.

The choice between Psychic and Giga Drain is intresting, but go with Psychic if you prefer. You could have Giga Drain instead of Sleep Powder (you will probably be challenging alot of Sleep Talkers) if you want, cause Paralyze is a fine status too, whom is harder to counter for your opponent (since no Sleep Talk). He will have to use Rest or Heal Bell.

 

[Pocket]

Snorlax can do a variety of things. In this case I'm having him Selfdestruct to keep the team moving at a quicker pace. None of those moves really fit in a moveset with Selfdestruct for all intended purposes.

Curse > EQ is a good alternative imo. There is a give and take here - you will do worse against Tyranitars, Gengars, Misdreavus, Electrics, and some random poison pokes, but in exchange Snorlax can pack a punch in its STAB Body Slams or Self-Destruct, and can be offensively threatening (rather than being walled by Zapdos / Suicune / Vaporeon / Snorlax / Miltank and is forced to explode). It kind of disguises itself as a Curse FB Lax, until it then self-destructs. Snorlax still keep the offensive pace, because the only time it's not attacking is to boost its offense. Curse will also allow Lax to pull the 1-to-1 trade against opposing Curselaxs that have 1 Curse up in its belt.

 

[Borat]

Going DE > BS would solve Zap/Vap/Lax "problem" (wouldn't you just explode vs lax?). Curse wouldn't help against Miltank anyway. You still have to explode it (LK helps vs Miltank).

Not saying Curse is bad. Just pointing out BS doesn't pack a punch.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, Double-Edge from Snorlax is nasty and bangs up teams good. However, I feel like Umby's Snorlax would possess the "duality" characteristic if it has some defensive (as well as offensive) backing from Curse while keeping Body Slam that provides paralysis support. I mean, Snorlax pretty much IS duality, due to its awesome offensive and defensive capabilities intrinsic to the Pokemon, but I feel that Double-Edge recoils without Rest are trading offense for Snorlax's duration of action. Also, Curse allows Snorlax to go for that 1-to-1 exchange against other Curselax, in an event when Umby's Suicune is too damaged to take anymore STAB hits to phaze, which I feel is significant. (I mean, most of Umby's team has an answer to Curselax, but Raikou is enough of an opening to become problematic).

D-Edge Lax is undoubtedly superior if Umby is able to spread key paralysis through Eggy's Stun Spore, Marowak's paraslams, and Raikou's Thunder. In that case, I may suggest D-Edge + Curse > Body Slam + EQ as an alternative. However I'd say Snorlax is really great at spreading paralysis, and if your team needs the paralysis support, then Snorlax's Body Slams provide it (and Curse can allow Body Slams to hit like Double-Edges).

 

[Borat]

I'd recommend curse over eq only on the account that you don't really struggle with the stuff it doesn't hit (ttar/gengar has problems with cune/kou respectively). But that doesn't mean you should be freely letting those in. That gets problematic real quick.

On the flip side, keeping EQ gives Snorlax more "staying" power, as in it doesn't have to switch out as often. This makes snorlax have a bigger impact on battles, instead of having to switch-in [possibly taking a hit] only to switch out vs ttar/gengar. The amount of damage snorlax dishes needs to outweigh the amount of damage snorlax takes, which might not necessarily be the case.

I think EQ will be better consistently, but Curse has bigger upsides. And is LK really not even worth a mention?